** spoiler omitted **That's kind of messed up. And also not how readied actions work at all.
Double gypped. D:
Yeah. I'll live. I'm running now, so I can throw as many Paladins as many I want into the game. Interestingly, I haven't used any yet (about a dozen session or so).
...
... "aggro"? The phrase "I refuse to heal stupidity"?
I smell the stench of a bad MMO. I think my advice, then, is to learn why a tabletop RPG is nothing like any MMO that has ever been made or is currently being made, nor any that are likely to be made for many many years yet.
Hint: it has to do with the interaction offered by the real, live humans at the table.
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...... "aggro"? The phrase "I refuse to heal stupidity"?
I smell the stench of a bad MMO. I think my advice, then, is to learn why a tabletop RPG is nothing like any MMO that has ever been made or is currently being made, nor any that are likely to be made for many many years yet.
Hint: it has to do with the interaction offered by the real, live humans at the table.
To be fair, this is somewhat possible with an MMO. I imagine there is at least a (very small) subset of gamers who engage in meaningful Role-Playing as part of their WoW (or any other MMO) experience.
Of course, you are limited by the restrictions of the programmers, but that's not too different from PF (most groups don't deviate too far from the RAW), doubly so if you play PFS (no houserules).
But a Tabletop is a far better method for doing it.
This makes me laugh because we just had a similar incident.
Composition: Gnome Archeologist (Bard), Elf Teleportation sub school Wizard, Gnome Oracle of Life, Gnome Paladin.
On day 1, we wrestled some thugs into submission, then spent several hours poking about in libraries, then spent several hours talking to people, including the most important NPC in town who offered us her house.
Late on day 1, we ended up in a cemetery (again) fighting Skeletons while looking for a crypt that might contain some clues and gear for the days ahead.
After the skeletons, we were feeling beat up, it had been too long a day anyhow, so we checked the crypts, examined the lock, figured out our approach for the following day, and we all headed back into town. BSF decided to kick in the door, yay . . . and centipedes galore. So we all charge in, kill us some giant vermin, search the place, and find some nice loot.
On the way back to the town so we could sleep, we politely explained to the fighter that:
(1) this town is infested with undead, and more importantly ghosty undead.
(2) my gnomish dual cursed Oracle of Life did indeed have channel uses available.
(3) My channel had to be saved in case of a night time ghost attack.
(4) He had to suck up the pain and deal with it for the night, but first thing in the morning, if he would be so kind as to wake me an hour before dawn, I would heal him up. Until then, he could enjoy the physical pain as a reminder.
I then used a Heal Check to apply stitches the good ole' fashioned way. Lots of alcohol in open wounds, a stick to bite on, a needle, candle, and thread.
The GM had him take 1 point non-lethal from the 'healing' and he is now resting, unconscious, until our next meeting on Friday night. RP wise, he is in a lot of pain. OOC wise, he is experiencing minor pangs of remorse because we paid so dearly to save his skin he thought it would be an evil _____ so he could get his daily smite on. What he thought would be an easy encounter sucked the very marrow of resources from our bones. No one had anything left besides my one channel positive energy remaining.
I've got a quick question. I admit i skiped several posts but what does WOW stand for? I just can't figure it out. It took me the longest time to figure out what RAW ment. Rule as written. Thanks
This makes me laugh because we just had a similar incident.
** spoiler omitted **
On the way back to the town so we could sleep, we politely explained to the fighter that:
** spoiler omitted **
I then used a Heal Check to apply stitches the good ole' fashioned way. Lots of alcohol in open wounds, a stick to bite on, a needle, candle, and thread.The GM had him take 1 point non-lethal from the 'healing' and he is now resting, unconscious, until our next meeting on Friday night. RP wise, he is in a lot of pain. OOC wise, he is experiencing minor pangs of remorse because we paid so dearly to save his skin he...
There's no Fighter listed in that party, you know...
I've got a quick question. I admit i skiped several posts but what does WOW stand for? I just can't figure it out. It took me the longest time to figure out what RAW ment. Rule as written. Thanks
World of Warcraft= a on-line computer game.
There's no Fighter listed in that party, you know...
Never heard of a Fighter that could Smite, either...
I think in this case the poster meant "front line fighter," referring to the role, not the class. :) The party DOES have a Paladin, after all.
I wouldn't have done the long-term care. I'd have done a heal check, slapped a jury-rigged bandage on it and told him to sleep it off. Sort of a "Feel that? That's what a mistake in the field feels like. Learn from it."
I suppose those of you saying how you'd have done a heal check and let the fighter "sleep it off" feel that is an appropriate way to "teach a party member a lesson."
In any party of mine that fighter's going to get healed up if any caster in the party has heal spells left over at the end of the day. Not because I really care about him (although maybe I do, depends on my character) but because I care about ME, and the last thing I need is to get woken up in the middle of the night by a random encounter with an unarmored, bleeding and useless fighter laying on the ground.
If we're in the business of "teaching lessons" then as the GM of that campaign I might just feel a lesson needs to be taught to the party as a whole.
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Really wild controversy here...
First before any healing is done the group needs to make a decision. Do we keep adventuring with a guy who refuses to act in the groups best interest? THAT is the real question and everything else from staying in character to healing him up is purely built around the answer to that question. IF you are NOT kicking Leeroy Jenkins from the group then you need to heal him up if you have spells left to do so. Saying in effect "You are not acting in the group's best interest so I won't either as punishment" is only going to end in TPK in a dangerous area like the moat house. Remember people two wrongs don't make a right. I give bonus XP for working as a team. If I was GMing you two I can name two guys already who are going to be behind in XP.
It's a little late but when my old group was faced with an almost identical situation they just barricaded the door shut behind the crazy guy who charged in against the group's wishes. If he can solo the monster fight then great he stays in the group and maybe listens next time, if not... well maybe his next character will be more reasonable.
Leroy Jenkins did it to spoof on all the nerds making 20 minutes of plans to defeat the scenario, just so he could screw up it up.
Wait wait wait...
...Leroy Jenkins charged blindly into battle- a battle that had given his group "lots of trouble" before- getting himself and his entire party killed... as a social commentary?
This is now considered CLEVER?!?
I... just... I...
'Kay. I'm popping a couple advil and sleeping this one off. Have a good night, all.
You dont know the story behind leroy jenkins obviously.
First it was an MMO raidSecond he wasn't a known member of the party, filling a raid means the raid leader wants 'toons' (characters) that can do certain things; x number of fighters, y casters, one guy with enough wisdom to read this rune etc.
In this case you let in a lot of people you dont know, the 'norm' is to listen to the leader explain what everyone is going to do, according to a carefully laid out plan, which makes pulling off the raid MUCH easier than running in hack and slash, the whole point is it lets lower level characters complete the raid getting access to more powerful items and gobs of experience earlier.
But Leroy entered the raid , with the intention of screwing it up, and copied him doing so on to you tube.
As they are finishing their plan to do whatever they were doing, he shouts "leeeeeerrrrrroooooooy jenkinnnns!" and runs in, triggering everything, with the ensuing panic of everyone in the party screaming like real people were dying and it was a TPK in about 30 seconds or so.
So yes, the player of "leroy jenkins" did it as a social commentary. And It was quite funny.
the term leroy jenkins, is now used for someone (usually a barb) that just runs into to stuff with no thought, plan, or motive other than screw everyone I'm attacking.
Really wild controversy here...
First before any healing is done the group needs to make a decision. Do we keep adventuring with a guy who refuses to act in the groups best interest? THAT is the real question and everything else from staying in character to healing him up is purely built around the answer to that question. IF you are NOT kicking Leeroy Jenkins from the group then you need to heal him up if you have spells left to do so. Saying in effect "You are not acting in the group's best interest so I won't either as punishment" is only going to end in TPK in a dangerous area like the moat house. Remember people two wrongs don't make a right. I give bonus XP for working as a team. If I was GMing you two I can name two guys already who are going to be behind in XP.
It's a little late but when my old group was faced with an almost identical situation they just barricaded the door shut behind the crazy guy who charged in against the group's wishes. If he can solo the monster fight then great he stays in the group and maybe listens next time, if not... well maybe his next character will be more reasonable.
Barricading someone in a room with a monster is completely bereft of morals, so that would totally depend on the alignments/classes (any paladins in the party?) of the characters involved.
if everyone was CN, yea you might get away with that, but the cleric IS CG. that's not a good thing to do.Deciding to dump the fighter is fine, he can be replaced, but are you really going to part ways in a hostile dungeon?
Have you every had to fire an employee? How happy are they about it?
this is a guy with a sword. how well do I know him, how long have I known him?
I'm focused on evil guys while this guy is skulking around behind us now with a grudge?
The midst of a dungeon isn't the place to do this.
And it also doesnt help if the player makes another character that does the same dang thing. (if that is infact the case)
There is much debate and dispute about the circumstances surrounding the "Leeeeroooy Jeenkkkinnns!" incident. I was aware of it just a few days after the initial Youtube video was posted. Our guild leader made it a mandatory video to view.
The player of Leeroy Jenkins (not "Leroy Jenkins") is a guy named Ben Schulz. The initial story of the video was that "Leeroy Jenkins" was a guild member and they were setting up a raid while Ben Schulz was grabbing some chicken for a snack. Ben returned to his desk and believed that the raid leader had called for the attack to begin, so he charged in with his trademark battlecry. The result was hilarious chaos and widespread mayhem ending with a total raid group wipe. As the guild members heap derision on "Leeroy", Ben calmly responds "At least I got chicken."
While it has been speculated since that the incident was staged, Ben Schulz himself has never confirmed nor denied that it was staged, and for several months after it happened there was really no challenge to the initial story. It was only after the meme jumped from WoW into the mainstream media that other stories began to surface.
I always went into battle less than full healed because i would forgot to ask to be heal.
the whole point of game is to have fun. Just heal the fighter, move on, have fun.
My favorite part is the comments right after he runs in.
Leeroy: "Leeroy Jeeeeeenkins!"
Leader: "Oh my God, he just ran in."
(Pause)
Leader: "Save him!"
Random: "Let's go, let's go!"
"Stick to the plan!"
"Oh God, Oh jeez, Oh F**k..."
"I can't move! Am I lagging, guys?"
Hilarious. The player of Leeroy made an appearance at Blizzcon one year.
Deciding to dump the fighter is fine, he can be replaced, but are you really going to part ways in a hostile dungeon?
Have you every had to fire an employee? How happy are they about it?
this is a guy with a sword. how well do I know him, how long have I known him?
I'm focused on evil guys while this guy is skulking around behind us now with a grudge?
The midst of a dungeon isn't the place to do this.
And it also doesnt help if the player makes another character that does the same dang thing. (if that is infact the case)
Are you seriously advocating that a group should continue deeper into a dungeon with a person who's already proved himself a danger to those around him equal to the dangers posed by the dungeon? Just because they didn't find out about it until inside the dungeon?
Seriously?
You advocate going deeper rather than telling him that the other three are retreating back to the entrance and going back to town, and he is welcome to either come with them or go on by himself?
Seriously?
You think it is safer, to go into a known dangerous hostile situation with plenty of unknown dangers, with someone who is known to put his own desires and glory over the safety of those he travels with?
There is much debate and dispute about the circumstances surrounding the "Leeeeroooy Jeenkkkinnns!" incident. I was aware of it just a few days after the initial Youtube video was posted. Our guild leader made it a mandatory video to view.
The player of Leeroy Jenkins (not "Leroy Jenkins") is a guy named Ben Schulz. The initial story of the video was that "Leeroy Jenkins" was a guild member and they were setting up a raid while Ben Schulz was grabbing some chicken for a snack. Ben returned to his desk and believed that the raid leader had called for the attack to begin, so he charged in with his trademark battlecry. The result was hilarious chaos and widespread mayhem ending with a total raid group wipe. As the guild members heap derision on "Leeroy", Ben calmly responds "At least I got chicken."
While it has been speculated since that the incident was staged, Ben Schulz himself has never confirmed nor denied that it was staged, and for several months after it happened there was really no challenge to the initial story. It was only after the meme jumped from WoW into the mainstream media that other stories began to surface.
It was my understanding that the event actually happened, more or less as it is portrayed, but was later reenacted for the purposes of recording and posting on the internet.
Im making things smaller because there is no real point in requoting the quoting making a larger post.Oh, no I just meant that it wasn't formatted properly so I had to put in tags before I could respond. I didn't mean you had to requote each point, I just like doing that for clarity.
1) assuming there is something that might be interesting because the creature is there, is not meta gaming. You can see it, it's not doing anything, you made your skill checks to understand it, so why is it here? Dead ogre storage? (I posted that consideration) or it's guarding 'something'. This would depend on room description, which we don't have. Which makes me think there is more to this encounter, what interested the fighter SO much about this room? was it literally a motionless lone ogre skeleton in a bare room (my vote would be for dead ogre storage), maybe is there something unseen? Depends on how far one might want to read between the lines on a skeleton standing in a bare room doing nothing.I don't want to speculate since it doesn't serve any purpose but I will say that I said 'jumping to conclusions or metagaming'. (And I didn't think you were really metagaming)
However is the room is full of stuff, tables chairs, whatever. It's reasonable to assume that skeleton might be guarding something you can't see easily by peering in through the door way. That's not metagaming, that's basing assumptions off the appearance of the room and asking ones self. what the heck is it doing? This might spark ones curiosity into finding out what is in there.At best, guarding a valuable item. At worst, is a red herring because you automatically assume it has to be guarding a valuable. Besides, this is the Temple of Elemental Evil, of all the things to spark my curiosity a skeleton is not one of them.
Like finding a locked box... what's in it? It wouldn't be locked if it wasn't good... so it must be good. Now...
Again you are trying to mix in much out of game knowledge, with in game knowledge.
You are also assuming that everything I say is based solely on what the OP states, rather than what he bluntly omitted.When people want you to see things their way, they paint a story with hideously blank holes;
otherwise he would have stated WHY the fighter was arguing to go into the room.
If the fighter didnt have a reason, or said "just cuz" it would have been part of the report, because it would further shore up the OPs part of the story, but the fact that it doesnt exist as part of the report means, he had some point the OP did not want to include.
so therefor, what was the description of the room? We don't know.
The OP trivializes the room by saying there was just an ogre skeleton in there. Really? That's it?
And we all jump to a conclusion of what a dumb fighter! Just the way telling the story in that manner is intended to do.
But without out of game knowledge, the fighter is looking in the room and seeing something. What we don't know, and is fighting and wrestling with his buddies over going in (quite a bit of effort and time)
So by the by....searching every nook and cranny isn't going to make as much noise as wrestling each other on the hallway or fighting the ogre.
Also you are trying to take into consideration that the Skeleton could not hear a command from another room. Sound carries extremely well in stone hallways, and there are these things like secret passages, that are disturbingly common in old castles and military type structures. Meaning the Big bad doesnt have to come down the hall past us to get to his stored Ogre Skeleton.
Perhaps the Ogre skeleton is in fact guarding the secret door and nothing else? This is the escape route for big bad? But you will never know, because you didn't look.
You also mention stuff about risking lives for exploration.... erm isnt that what adventurers DO?
In my experience the "Hive mind" is always the strongest personality, his yes man, followed by the guy who doesnt want confrontation, which means essentially even tho "WE" all agree, it is really "HE" and not we at all. So anyone who doesn't think the same way, or do exactly what the leader wants (and its funny how this guys is ALWAYS the leader) gets singled out as stupid or moronic.
So he went in, for what? To play Leroy? Maybe.
What if he went in for another reason, but then the ogre swats him, confirms a crit, brings him to 1 hp and he runs for his life, forget about why he went in.
The story now gets told as "tell me Im right for refusing to heal him"
Which to me is about the same as "tell me Im right for casting charm person on him and getting him to do exactly as he is commanded"
It doesn't mean the cleric is required to cast his spells in any certain way or allocation, anymore than the fighter is required to do anything either.
A good group or team works together by getting used to and anticipating each others actions and honing a response to those actions that will strengthen the groups weaknesses as a whole.
IF john is always going to play "I rush in" or "what's in the box", then you learn to play with john, or don't play with john, but dont expect john to be the automaton in the fourth chair that says "I hit it with my axe" on que when the group decides it's time to fight.
Really wild controversy here...
First before any healing is done the group needs to make a decision. Do we keep adventuring with a guy who refuses to act in the groups best interest? THAT is the real question and everything else from staying in character to healing him up is purely built around the answer to that question. IF you are NOT kicking Leeroy Jenkins from the group then you need to heal him up if you have spells left to do so. Saying in effect "You are not acting in the group's best interest so I won't either as punishment" is only going to end in TPK in a dangerous area like the moat house. Remember people two wrongs don't make a right. I give bonus XP for working as a team. If I was GMing you two I can name two guys already who are going to be behind in XP.
It's a little late but when my old group was faced with an almost identical situation they just barricaded the door shut behind the crazy guy who charged in against the group's wishes. If he can solo the monster fight then great he stays in the group and maybe listens next time, if not... well maybe his next character will be more reasonable.
Barricading someone in a room with a monster is completely bereft of morals, so that would totally depend on the alignments/classes (any paladins in the party?) of the characters involved.
if everyone was CN, yea you might get away with that, but the cleric IS CG. that's not a good thing to do.Deciding to dump the fighter is fine, he can be replaced, but are you really going to part ways in a hostile dungeon?
Have you every had to fire an employee? How happy are they about it?
this is a guy with a sword. how well do I know him, how long have I known him?
I'm focused on evil guys while this guy is skulking around behind us now with a grudge?
The midst of a dungeon isn't the place to do this.
And it also doesnt help if the player makes another character that does the same dang thing. (if that is infact the case)
It isn't bereft of morals at all. The only alignment I can see having issues with it would be Lawful, but a Lawful guy would want to kick the guy from the group anyway. The group has a right NOT to attack a non-hostile critter. Engaging in a (possibly) evil act by attacking a critter that is minding it's own business. If you want to endanger YOURSELF fine a chaotic has that prerogative, but forcing your own friends into a life or death struggle against their wishes is evil. Barricading the door was the only way the group could remain safe while the crazy guy did his thing.
Parting ways in a hostile dungeon or letting him get you all killed? I think the choice is obvious. Kick him.
I have had to fire someone. Not easy to do but it was in everyone's best interest and I felt better afterward. Who cares how happy they are. They know they did wrong and are now facing the consequences. If they are a murderer then I didn't do a very good job hiring him and by no means is it wise to let him stay employed. IN game if he isn't part of the group then he is an NPC now and hopefully the GM will use his listed alignment in our future dealings with him if any.
If the player makes a new character with a grudge then it is likely the player will be booted next.
RD, that may be true, but my experience at the time was that all serious guilds recorded their raiding as a matter of policy. Our guild did. We would post the videos and then the guild leader would send out critiques to every player indicating what they did right and (more commonly) wrong. So it was pretty much assumed that the original video was from a guild recording.
There was a second video posted that I actually haven't seen. I assumed it was an edited version of the original, but it may have been a staged one.
If the original was staged, I have to give that guild credit for some decent acting abilities.
I don't play WoW so that was something I did not know.
Man. WoW players take that crap more seriously than I ever would have thought.
Deciding to dump the fighter is fine, he can be replaced, but are you really going to part ways in a hostile dungeon?
Have you every had to fire an employee? How happy are they about it?
this is a guy with a sword. how well do I know him, how long have I known him?
I'm focused on evil guys while this guy is skulking around behind us now with a grudge?
The midst of a dungeon isn't the place to do this.
And it also doesnt help if the player makes another character that does the same dang thing. (if that is infact the case)Are you seriously advocating that a group should continue deeper into a dungeon with a person who's already proved himself a danger to those around him equal to the dangers posed by the dungeon? Just because they didn't find out about it until inside the dungeon?
Seriously?
You advocate going deeper rather than telling him that the other three are retreating back to the entrance and going back to town, and he is welcome to either come with them or go on by himself?
Seriously?
You think it is safer, to go into a known dangerous hostile situation with plenty of unknown dangers, with someone who is known to put his own desires and glory over the safety of those he travels with?
No, In fact, I would pack up and leave. Pull out completely.
But 1) I'm not just kicking the guy out in "Indian territory"and 2) I'm not watching over my shoulder for the disgruntled member of the party I kicked out every step through the dungeon;
with that in mind, if leaving wasnt an option, I'd rather keep my eye on him, rather than look for him, over my shoulder, or cast him out and have him get killed because he was trying to make it home on his own.
Preferred method 1) pull out of the dungeon and go back to town. refit, regroup, after firing the fighter.
But: there was some mention of a time line of some sort, which would be thrown away by leaving.
Back up method 2) knowing Happy McSkippy does what he does, I can now anticipate what he is going to do, and act accordingly, and possibly use it to my advantage; and if he gets himself killed through HIS OWN actions, then morally, I'm off the hook. I mean, I DID tell him so.
Back up method 3) Tie him up, release him when we are done.
However this one is REALLY likely to get him to hunt you down at a later date.
and for the record, he is NOT as dangerous to his fellow adventurers as the other dangers in the dungeon. He failed to go along with a political pissing contest of ow and when we do what we/he wants.
The entire party could easily have gone in right after Happy McSkippy and best down the ogre skeleton and searched the room and been fine. The ensuing antics went the way they did, because the party was split on their decision and wanted to let him go it alone.
THAT was the dangerous part.
this was some vague report of him charging in on a horse? But if the room is 20x20 and they were all arguing at the door, how could he have gotten that far ahead of them, they all should have been in range to fight it on round 1.
Facepalm, he went in anyway, let's go help him....(reluctantly)
It's quite easy, just because it isnt what you wanted to do, doesnt make it anymore dangerous. But I suppose requiring him to do what he doesnt want to is ok. It's far less dangerous to fight things that I tell you to fight, than what you choose to fight?
It's a team, you stick as a team (even when you dont agree) as long as you are in that team. you can either leave the dungeon or adapt tactics, that's a choice. It is clear however, what you WERE going to do is not going to happen now.
But I dont see abandoning someone in a dungeon, a choice. Nor leaving someone angry at me to my rear....
It's my assumption that if Happy the fighter really does act this way, I will let him boot down every door, and charge in (since thats what he wants to do and it's his choice), and that will eventually get him killed. But we will provide support fire for his charge every time, until such a time he gets himself killed. Then we can reconsider out old tactics.
The two choices then are clearly, leave and refit, or continue and adapt tactics (only if you were really pressed for time, which, honestly, i think is a perceived reality and not an actual reality)
Ah, ok. Sorry then, the original post sounded like you were saying it was better to just go on with the guy in the team.
DrDeth
Thanks for the 411.
...When people want you to see things their way, they paint a story with hideously blank holes;
otherwise he would have stated WHY the fighter was arguing to go into the room.
If the fighter didnt have a reason, or said "just cuz" it would have been part of the report, because it would further shore up the OPs part of the story, but the fact that it doesnt exist as part of the report means, he had some point the OP did not want to include. ....
OP= "I honestly don't remember why the fighter insisted he wanted to go in there. The room description wasn't indicating some kind of gigantic treasure hoard. Right after the up or down vote failed his character immediately moved into "I'm going in there!" mode and it was grapple check time. He did mention the xpees after the fact though, but I don't think it was the whole reason for going in. On a side note we didn't search the room after the fight, we left and camped so we do not know what's in there. "
And you know it's pretty easy to look that dungeon up and see what it actually says.
I don't play WoW so that was something I did not know.
Man. WoW players take that crap more seriously than I ever would have thought.
I remember watching a beta server run through of a top tier guild through new raid content. They were kind enough to livestream the event and chat with viewers during the downtime. Any top tier player is going to have substantive system mastery and a strong understanding of how encounters work. It's a lot like chatting with extremely experienced Pathfinder players, but the fact of the matter is that MMOs move faster, meaning a player can be experienced with more content faster in the MMO than the pen and paper RPG.
I don't play WoW so that was something I did not know.
Man. WoW players take that crap more seriously than I ever would have thought.
Meh I prefer league to WOW. League players do they same thing but closer to what you'll find in Table top, combining different characters with different base stats and altering what items they take, abilities at level up, and items being bought with order they're bought in.
Also the concept of character placement in terms of field advantage has been worked to near perfection.
Only thing I'm sad about was the fact I missed Season 2 world championship :(
It's all kinda the same to me. I haven't played an MMO that didn't feel like a grind more than anything else, except the few hours I played of the first Planetside. That was actually really enjoyable. It was enough like an RPG to qualify, even though it was an FPS.
MMOFPS I just count as a separate category. Those are fun, but also grind-fests. But you can at least be competitive early on.
... League is a MOBA not a MMORPG or a MMOFPS.
I know. I just assumed there were RPG elements to it, much like the Arena games in Warcraft III that it seems like it was based off of. Is it different enough that I should consider it? I have a friend who plays. I could ask him, too.
Defense of the Ancients also originated in Warcraft III (and somewhat Starcraft with Tower Defense) if I'm not mistaken.
Which I might be. I just never heard about DOTA until after Warcraft III had come out (and I had played several DOTA maps online).
It's all kinda the same to me. I haven't played an MMO that didn't feel like a grind more than anything else, except the few hours I played of the first Planetside. That was actually really enjoyable. It was enough like an RPG to qualify, even though it was an FPS.
MMOFPS I just count as a separate category. Those are fun, but also grind-fests. But you can at least be competitive early on.
One of the things I have had a hard time explaining to non-raiding gamers is that playing WoW and raiding in WoW are as different as night and day. I also played and raided in Everquest and it was the same thing.
Raiding, for most raiding guilds, is actually serious business. In fact the best guilds will "raid" other guilds for their best players. I was recruited by a couple of guilds before joining one of the top guilds on my server. We were one of the few guilds to successfully take down the Lich King multiple times before the update nerfed the Lich King encounter significantly.
As a guild member I had duties. I had to demonstrate the ability to maintain a specific damage output for up to ten minutes. WoW has practice dummies that you use for this, and there are add-ons that will record your performance so you can post the results. Raid members were expected to watch the recommended videos for each fight and to know their duties. Duties were very boss specific, and you had to know what your job was for each boss. It was never "just go in there and beat the heck out of it". There was always some dance you had to do (sometimes a literal dance). You would have to watch for the boss to do specific things and counter them, and usually you had less than a second to recognize the problem and do whatever you had to do. You also had to have all the required equipment to raid, and that wasn't cheap. And I'm not talking about just armor and weapons. I'm talking about consumable items. You also had to know every cooldown for every power you had so that you knew when you could recharge and reuse it.
Raiding is very, very difficult. Defeating the Lich King in his prime was one of the more demanding intellectual, teamwork and physical challenges I've personally encountered. Sure it's only keyboard or joystick, but you have to be unerringly precise, for a fifteen minute battle. One single mistake can not only get you killed, but can wipe the entire raid. And you need every single member of the raid to do their job.
That's why it was such an adrenaline rush. It took our guild weeks to master the skills needed to take down the Lich King. I personally caused the raid to wipe at least twice. But so did everyone, even our guild leader and main tank. It's that difficult. Or it was. I'm sure whatever the current top boss fight is in WoW is just as difficult as the Lich King used to be.
I don't understand the attitude some TTRPG players have for MMORPGs. They are totally different games with totally different demands and skill sets. I love them both. But I no longer play MMORPGs because being a raiding member of a major raiding guild was almost like a second job.
Thankfully I have never had this issue because my group tends to be XP/Loot hoars (myself included). Usually they do things the hard way on purpose to gain the most xp.
My next game will be XP free. We will level when the AP decree's it time. Because XP is no longer used in spellcasting or crafting there is little to no reason to keep it around.
This wont change my groups mindset Im sure though... after all there is still loot on those bodies.
Again you are trying to mix in much out of game knowledge, with in game knowledge.
The only knowledge you could say I was mixing is knowledge that is shared between OOC and IC. How undead work, how spells to make them work, and how spells that control them works. If you have something specific then I can respond in further detail, otherwise I think we're just discussing what constitutes OOC/IC.
You are also assuming that everything I say is based solely on what the OP states, rather than what he bluntly omitted.
No... I was telling you that speculating as to what the OP didn't say was pointless.
When people want you to see things their way, they paint a story with hideously blank holes; otherwise he would have stated WHY the fighter was arguing to go into the room.
If the fighter didnt have a reason, or said "just cuz" it would have been part of the report, because it would further shore up the OPs part of the story, but the fact that it doesnt exist as part of the report means, he had some point the OP did not want to include.
He said it was for xp but also possibly unmentioned reasons. I think you're just being incredibly cynical.
However, the fighter's reasoning is not relevant, his judgement was poor because he disrespected the group and undertook actions that directly resulted in his serious injury. Speculating as to the reason he went in only serves to justify his desire to go in, NOT, his decision to go in. He wasn't capable of fighting the skeleton alone and the way in which he engaged it was tactically unsound and endangered him and the rest of his party. That's why it's an issue.
Admittedly, I do want to know his reasoning but knowing why wouldn't change my mind.
so therefor, what was the description of the room? We don't know.
The OP trivializes the room by saying there was just an ogre skeleton in there. Really? That's it?
Trivialises? The only one who is trivialising anything is you by being so incredibly dismissive. The OP thought it was important enough to ask for advice and help on how to make sure everyone had a good time and was okay with it. He didn't trivialise the room, its just wasn't important. The reason he didn't mention the room is because the problem was to do with group cohesion, the room was only a catalyst.
And we all jump to a conclusion of what a dumb fighter! Just the way telling the story in that manner is intended to do.
The only people I can think of who don't play a fighter with the sole intent of hitting things are RD and maybe Shallowsoul. The fighter in question is did something profoundly unwise. On a somewhat related note, perception isn't a class skill for fighters and dumped mental stats means you're using less than what you roll on a d20. There's no jumping to conclusions about it, they're entirely valid assumptions. Even with the fighters reasoning it wouldn't portray him in a positive light; the cleric gave his reasoning for not healing the fighter and received a lot of backlash for it.
But without out of game knowledge, the fighter is looking in the room and seeing something. What we don't know, and is fighting and wrestling with his buddies over going in (quite a bit of effort and time)
So by the by....searching every nook and cranny isn't going to make as much noise as wrestling each other on the hallway or fighting the ogre.
Also you are trying to take into consideration that the Skeleton could not hear a command from another room. Sound carries extremely well in stone hallways, and there are these things like secret passages, that are disturbingly common in old castles and military type structures. Meaning the Big bad doesnt have to come down the hall past us to get to his stored Ogre Skeleton.
Perhaps the Ogre skeleton is in fact guarding the secret door and nothing else? This is the escape route for big bad? But you will never know, because you didn't look.
(The nook and cranny dig was separate to the difficulty to hear noise.)
Actually, sound carries very badly. (FWIW, The only reason I went to the rules section for this is I remember perception being not very much like real life so trying to apply real life examples to it is just going to confuse everyone)You see, every 10ft adds 1 to the DC of a perception check, every door adds 5 to the DC of a perception check, every 10 inches of wall adds 10 to the DC of a perception check. So to yell from halfway inside a 20x20 room, across a 10x10 corridor, through a door, and into another room 20x20 to reach a skeleton is going to be a DC 6 perception check, assuming the most favourable conditions. DC 4 if you factor in the stone. The Skeleton will fail that 25%, or 15% of the time with the favourable modifier. Those aren't bad odds, but they're not very good odds either. If the entrances to each room aren't opposite the % chance to fail easily doubles. This example illustrates that noticing stuff is actually really really hard. PCs know how hard it is, so a PC knows that if there isn't anyone immediately around the skeleton isn't going anywhere.
I'd forgotten about the possibility of secret passages but there wasn't any evidence to assume they were there. Besides, secret passage ways were for servants so they weren't seen moving around, or they were for escape, or to hide undesirable activities. The last two make the least amount of sense given the location and the building itself.
You also mention stuff about risking lives for exploration.... erm isnt that what adventurers DO?
That is a gross misrepresentation of what I said. My argument was that because it was time sensitive (reinforcements were on their way), stopping to fight every battle and investigate every room only increased the risk that they would fail to find the cleric(s) in time. Obviously, then having to deal with the BBEcleric -and- reinforcements which is significantly more risk to the party than one or the other. Yes adventurers risk their lives, but they don't weight risk equivocally.
In my experience the "Hive mind" is always the strongest personality, his yes man, followed by the guy who doesnt want confrontation, which means essentially even tho "WE" all agree, it is really "HE" and not we at all. So anyone who doesn't think the same way, or do exactly what the leader wants (and its funny how this guys is ALWAYS the leader) gets singled out as stupid or moronic.
Ah. You may want to stop using the term then because that is not what it means.
So he went in, for what? To play Leroy? Maybe.
What if he went in for another reason, but then the ogre swats him, confirms a crit, brings him to 1 hp and he runs for his life, forget about why he went in.
I agree. Forget about why he went in. It's not important.
The story now gets told as "tell me Im right for refusing to heal him"
Which to me is about the same as "tell me Im right for casting charm person on him and getting him to do exactly as he is commanded"
You can read into it that way if you want, but since the OP actually asked about whether his god would approve or not, not whether or not he should have healed the fighter, I disagree entirely. Especially since the cleric was told off for not healing the fighter by people of differing skill and play style.
It doesn't mean the cleric is required to cast his spells in any certain way or allocation, anymore than the fighter is required to do anything either.
No, they are very much so required to do things. That's part of the tacit agreement of a group, that you will contribute to a group and that your contributions with have a net positive effect on the group.
A good group or team works together by getting used to and anticipating each others actions and honing a response to those actions that will strengthen the groups weaknesses as a whole.
Yes, exactly. You form a unit that builds off of and supports one another.
IF john is always going to play "I rush in" or "what's in the box", then you learn to play with john, or don't play with john, but dont expect john to be the automaton in the fourth chair that says "I hit it with my axe" on cue when the group decides it's time to fight.
Which means you don't do this. John isn't anticipating the actions of others, honing responses to others, or contributing to the group. What he is doing is playing by himself while other people are around.
No-one said that John has to sit in his chair doing nothing between combats as a fighter but if all he's going to do is be fixated by the same options ("rush in", <get> "the box") then there's no point in including him in the decision making process because he's going to do/say the same thing every time. The rest of the party has learned to play with John, they play with John by playing around him because he doesn't want to do anything else.
@AD - I hadn't realized it was that intensive, but I also never really thought about it. I knew people got really into WoW, but I didn't know just how big a deal it was (or how hard things like the Lich King were). Not having any friends really play it probably added to my ignorance.
That's really cool about you and your guild though. It sounds like you say it like a badge of honor, which you should - I know you guys couldn't have been the only ones working that hard.
Just wondering, how would guilds attract members of other guilds? Offers of gold, items, the idea that "We give you a better chance of success"? What is it that would cause people to jump from guild to guild?
While I don't know the feeling of doing something like that with thirty other people, I have invested several hundred hours of my life into games to get the max level, or best weapon/armor, etc. I certainly know that dedication.
And I sure hope I didn't come out like I was being down on MMOs. I don't have the time to really play the games I own often enough as it is - adding in an MMO (particularly with my sub-par ISP) just isn't in the cards right now. But I know it's a grind to get to level 70 (85, whatever the level cap is for WoW now with Panda-land they got going on), and that's a ton of hours I would rather do something else with. Add in the monthly fee, and it's just not appealing at all. Maybe later on in my life, though.
@Thomas Long 175 - Sounds just like "Hero Arena", all right. I assume there's some way to carry a character over from game to game? Or do you start fresh every time you play, and only player stats (personal wins/loses, towers destroyed, nexuses destroyed, etc) get recorded?
@TheRedArmy, the vast majority of WoW players never reach raiding levels. I've met several WoW players who talk about "raiding" but when I ask for details it turns out they think that the regular level-up instances are "raiding."
The vast majority of raid-level characters are not raid-capable because if you aren't geared for raiding, you don't raid. You might get into a pickup group of other similar players, but if your gear is not up to the task, you simply won't survive. That's by design. To get raid-capable gear means that your character is going to have epic level items in almost every slot. To get epic level gear means you either paid a ton of gold for it on the auction house, you built up a ton of credit from doing the highest level group instances or you picked it up from raiding. At one point my character had the absolute highest rated item in every single slot but one, and that one slot was deliberate because I wanted a specific cooldown capability. When I retired my character I had a fortune in gold and several backpacks crammed with extremely valuable loot. Why did I have all that gold and loot? Because every time they did an expansion or minor update they replaced all the best stuff with new stuff and that new stuff was crazy expensive. And if they did that and you didn't have the best equipment, you would be dropped for a 'toon that did have it.
Maintaining that lifestyle meant you had to make cash. There were lots of ways to make cash, but by the time I retired I made virtually all of my cash making and selling motorcycle mounts to other toons. Also since some stuff could only be purchased with credits you had to go earn those credits. That meant "doing the dailies". Daily quests were things that you had to do every day and you would win a token or a few tokens for completing it. Some dailies just gave you faction rep, which may not sound like much until you learn that the shoulder armor that gives your toon the highest speed boost is only sold by the blue frost giants in the northern wastes of Northrend. So you go do that daily for the month or so that it takes to earn enough faction to buy the item.
All of that is needed to maintain your spot in a raid team. For most of my tenure as a raider I was #1 - #3 in DPS. When I was #3 I was working my butt off to get to #2, and if I was #2 I was working my butt off not to fall to #3. For my class dropping to #4 would mean moving to the "B" team, which meant much less raiding, which meant fewer equipment drops, which meant it was harder to keep up with #s 1-3.
So you are online every day. For at least a couple hours. That's BEFORE you address your raiding assignments. Raiding assignments are usually things like watching videos, improving your DPS rating or taking the lower level wanna-be raiders into the lesser, older raid instances to train them. And then there was raiding itself. NOTHING dropped you off the raid team as fast as not showing up for a planned raid. Our "A" team raided twice a week, and it was usually an all-night thing, easily four hours.
At the height of my raiding, when my toon was unsurpassed in gear, skills, gold and DPS, I was online 20 hours a week or more.
I had a family situation come up and I was offline for almost a month. By the time I came back they had upgraded gear and had completely restructured my class abilities, meaning I had to learn an entirely new set of combat abilities, learn all of the cooldowns and master the rotations to keep DPS AND spend all of my gold and credits on new gear items, and that STILL wasn't enough to regain the #3 position for almost two months of steady, hard work.
When I finally did make it back to the "A" Team, I had had enough and quit.
Thomas, I've been coy with my class because my main was a rogue, and rogues are despised. I loved the rogue for lots of reasons, not the least of which is that the rogue is the only WoW class that is a front-line melee character with LIGHT ARMOR. That means you have to be smart. But if you are smart, you can out-DPS any other class. Well, most of the time. There were times that Sony tweaked retribution paladins to the point that they were doing crazy damage, and there was a time that warlocks were doing crazy damage at range without even being in combat, but those were short-term glitches. For the long haul a well-played rogue was the ultimate in DPS, but you had to be damn good to survive the raids. For that reason rogues were generally avoided by raid leaders. So to be on a raid team as a rogue was, in itself, a feat worthy of respect.
And it wasn't all drudgery. Lots of things were a lot of fun. And when you are a top raiding toon in a top raiding guild you are sort of like WoW royalty. People can scan your toon to see your gear and they can set their view to see your guild, so when I walked into the main areas of any major city, believe me, people noticed. All of us were deluged with requests to join the guild to the point that I had the guild website hotkeyed on my keyboard so I could just hit the key and move on.
I bought an ultra fast gaming computer and a high-end specialized trackball/joystick device.
And every now and then I'd just get on my dragon and fly around the world (where you could fly anyway). If I got bored I'd go into enemy areas and do PvP behind the lines. I used to skulk around enemy cities ganking unususpecting enemies right in the midst of their main castle.
Every now and then our guild would hop on our choppers and just roar into an enemy city and lay waste to the place.
And for a good chunk of time I was a pure PvP player, spending all of my time in the PvP instances. Loved taking down a full-blown tank without them being able to do anything but stand there and watch their health drop to zero.
Ah... good times.
I also played a paladin and he was dual-specced as a tank or healer, so I actually raided in all three roles. But DPS is what I loved, I have to admit.
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You are right to seek a form of punishment.That's BS.
No player has a right to punish another. It's a game for Christ's sake. Everyone is there to have fun. You should talk to him instead. Try and come to an understanding that promotes fun for everyone.
If anyone felt a need to punish me for something I did in a game, and acted upon it, then we're done. I would never play with that person again. To them, it's obviously not just a game, but a power struggle of some kind. Who the hell would want a part in that?
Perhaps I need to rephrase because my statements meaning was obviously quite lost.
I should have said: Your character would not be alone in feeling a need to or taking action to punish/instruct/prove point to the one who caused him and his companions such perceived duress.
Is that better?
I'm not up for a discussion about players rights. This is a simple issue of an IC decision (that was stupid and costly and inconvenient) and another IC decision related to it. You're right, it's a game, it's all about fun. The original poster said everyone was alright with the events and that everyone had fun. Problem solved.
Also, I see nothing wrong with a few bad experiences when the other 90% are good. But everyone has their own, personal, ratio of what is allowed for them to feel however they want to feel or get our of an experience whatever they want to experience. I'm personally around the 50%, 20% neutral and 30% whatever mark because I just don't know that many people who are multifaceted enough to give consistent good quality experiences, in role playing or outside of it. Se la vi.
Depends. I can't control what another player does with their character. I also don't know every last capability of each character. What if that player had plans for their remaining spells? Maybe they didn't feel like informing me constantly of how many remaining spells they had remaining or of their plans for those spells. I really wouldn't want that kind of information anyway. I'd rather the sorcerer use her spells as she see's fit. It creates good RP opportunities when/if I find out they could have made life easier the whole time and didn't. Never mind the fact that their sorcerer wasn't required to do any of those things. The expectation is that they'll perform magical services for the party based on what the parties reason for having the sorcerer along was. Some parties are not organized and are a bunch of people thrown together, some are people forced together with a common goal. Who said that because the king ordered me to aid you that I had to use my infinite cast per day, detect magic? I'll aid you, admirably, too. When that dragon comes, I'll cast protection from energy. When he bites you, you'll be ethereal. When you can't get to it because of the army of summons in the way, I'll lay down some aoe support or give you or the entire party flight. Want me to identify the scroll or sword we found? No. Don't like it? Tough. If keeping you alive and carrying my weight in one aspect was not enough for you then you expect to much. I say this because combat is more or less the ONLY thing a fighter can really do or be expected to do. A sorcerer is generally geared for magical combat. They can do far more, of course...but if a fighter can be asked to fight and that's it, why can't a sorcerers contribution start and end there as well? Why is more asked of them- and regardless of the reason why it is asked- it is never required, making that answer moot. This can apply to any class. It also applies in other avenues. A wizard does not have to memorize or even learn a SINGLE combat related spell. Their contribution to a fight could be almost nonexistent, if not actually nonexistent. I have made a spellcaster who literally sat down and went to sleep IN COMBAT...and not one party member complained- even though he did it virtually every fight, no matter how dire. Eventually, he bothered to learn the sleep spell. Irony much?
But my wizard served the party in every way he could out of combat. He was incredibly useful and loads of fun (for the DM and other players). I'm afraid that your view on this matter seems a bit narrow. Maybe it's not. Or maybe mine is just broader beyond necessary. Regardless, the 'have to's' of RPing don't apply to me. Even if you want them to. I don't have to do anything you think my character should do. And odds are, I will or I won't. It just depends on what -I- want my character to do and whether or not it coincides with what you want it to do. I assume the same thing with anyone elses character.
These are all just examples that thoroughly disprove the notion that 'player/character X has to do what player/Character Y says because of some abstract notion'. You are free to WANT or desire me or anyone else to do the tasks you require (spend unused spell slots on x, y or z) but if the cleric has no intention of burning his last three spells before sleep on heal, you show me where the RAW says he has to, and I'll concede the argument to you and put my foot so far in my mouth that I'll be crapping toenails.
But we both know that's not going to happen because I'm right. You're right enough in your meaning though. In this situation and many others, it's generally a good idea to use those unused spell slots for healing before sleep. It's just common sense. In this instance, it's not.
The main problem here is that now the group has suffered twice and the fighter who made them all suffer the first time is being supported in his choice to make the group suffer. No where in all of this has he actually been put on the path of 'dude, you SHOULD feel bad' which is the premise behind teaching the lesson to begin with. HOW the lesson is taught, can always be argued to be nicer, kinder, softer, more 'mature' in other peoples eyes, etc. But I feel it is important that SOME non-positive response come of it (ideally with a positive outcome). When I taught in daycare, one of the most incredible hurdles was the 'no negativity' concept. Children who did bad things, no matter how horrible, were never scolded or punished. They in no way received negative feedback from their actions. Every response to anything they did, was ALWAYS positive. It disgusted me. And, of course, most of those kids developed some really bratty and obnoxious habits because, the lessons really weren't being learned. Nothing was sticking because there was only reward, or distraction. Having a kid sit off to draw a picture of why we don't hit people is in no way remotely the same or as effective as that child getting 'some' sort of negative feedback, be it the kid hitting him back, or a guilt trip or something..anything.
The director of the facility was of a like mind (As were many other employees but we needed our jobs). Parents were almost impossible to deal with because they wanted restitution of some sort...but without any form of punishment, none of the kids who did wrong ever learned or felt bad about what they'd done. The result was parents who felt that the teachers were ineffective and that whatever bad thing happened to their child would result in some other child being given a treat, pat on the back and redirected to some other non-problematic activity (we've actually had to do this with violent kids).
My point, in all of this rambling is that someone did something stupid, it caused problems and now someone wants to DENY an action of theirs, which should result in the problem causer to learn not to cause those sorts of actions in the future. You can call it punishment or whatever you want. But the reality is that the player is merely choosing not to further such problems in the future. I'm not healing you until you understand that your actions are going to get us all killed. Once I feel you understand how not to act that way, I'll heal you again. The cleric has done nothing wrong, has taken no action against anyone. As GM, now you are punishing someone for simply taking no action, even when it's not an action required. This can go on and on. Now, I should admit that -I- probably would be annoyed as GM over various situations of player inaction. It can be just as problematic as taking action. Heck, I've been annoyed as a player when I was a rogue because the fighter simply chose to do nothing at all in combat for multiple rounds. All he had to do was a move action so I could get flanking. But he REFUSED...and we were definitely going to die. I was annoyed, frustrated...but I'm fair. He was NOT required to do anything, though it was expected of him to fight. The player was having a bad day, felt tired, put his head down and passed his turns. WTH?
What did I do? I played it out anyway- despite my petty feelings on the issue. It's his character, not mine. I fought until I was certain it was over. Then I prepared to let them all die and save myself. How I feel and my opinion honestly don't matter in the end. Would he have learned a lesson? Hopefully...and ideally in the form of a tpk (minus me).
As GM, I teach lessons all throughout my games. Mostly subtle. New players don't always understand how 'things work'. Sometimes, someone is trying to do just something they really shouldn't be doing. Telling people is definitely not always even close to the right answer. Experience is often the better teacher. I've got a friend who you can tell NOTHING to if it is about him, his actions and not positive. It doesn't matter what it is. He hears word that you dislike something he did, you're shut out. End of discussion. He's INCREDIBLY immature. -50 modifier on taking criticism. How to teach him? Well buddy, we're giving out exp during session.
Example: John, Bob, Marry, Tom, you each get 900 exp. Marry, excellent job RPing that boss encounter. You'll receive an additional 200.
Obnoxious: What about me?
GM: You snuck off after the first couple of rounds and went to loot the treasure you all passed....again. You didn't earn any exp.
Obnoxious: But I was in combat for a round. I should get exp.
GM: Not for that combat you won't. You got treasure instead.
Obnoxious: But the party doesn't know, right?
GM: IC, you don't know what they know. You only know you grabbed the loot while they all were off fighting for your life and theirs down the hall.
And...it'll just so happen that whatever item the obnoxious player is choosing to keep or benefit most from will also be cursed. Better yet, it'll be an awesome item, too. Something the obnoxious player, specifically, can make the most use of and would never consider selling until many, many sessions down the road. The envy and jealousy of the party would be ripe. In fact, I might even give him partial exp for the combat- which would make it worse and foster IC jealousy and frustration. But oh...the feeling of just rewards (and rp opportunities) when that item is revealed to be cursed and they can't get rid of it and the obnoxious player is...compromised. How much is too much? How much is not enough? Some might see this as heavy handed. Some might feel it is clever and apt. A GM's job is rarely the same job twice. Maybe an entirely different approach will be better, come to mind and work, or maybe that IS the best method and absolutely surefire..heck, it might even backfire. But players don't have to know they're being punished directly or 'instructed' directly. And from another players standing, similar things can be done as well. Is it wrong for my crafter to intentionally make a cursed item and lay a trap for the party thief by leaving it out and waiting for him to steal it from me in my sleep? Especially if it is something minor that I could easily not miss? My point being to teach him a lesson about stealing from me, no matter how little....And yes, he's willing to steal from the party (usually just small trinkets and handfuls of gold). But I have big plans...and need all my gold. Even 200 adds up rapidly. IC there IS a power structure in some parties. And depending on the personalities, it sometimes is not clearly defined.
Ever played in a group without a clear leader, no leadership at all, and where everyone feels free to just do whatever they want? If so you know exactly how difficult it is to do even a trivial task with a 'party' like that. A hierarchy is not always the right way to go, but generally it makes things easier in several situations. Knowing where the power is is important. Our party recognizes that the mystical power is in me (we do have another wizard but I'm just a better spellcaster, period). The party recognizes that the cavalier is the definitive beating stick. And when push comes to shove, MY character backs down because in the end, the cavalier has the power. He's got the law, he's got the leadership title and...he's got a lance that can do 4d8+20 or something, and can shove it down my throat...I like living, I concede when he pushes back equally hard. In the OP's case the fighters power is in fighting...the clerics power is in healing (among other things). The fighter is much less powerful in the absence of needed healing. Ideally, he'll keep this in mind the next time he wants to take actions that put the healer in jeopardy.
In my situation and others, it can be quite annoying ooc. But IC you role play. Being mature enough to know the difference matters and can completely dictate how much fun you're having. IC, I'm infuriated and learn to take my stance when and where I can and as appropriate. I've denied services before, repeatedly. And consistently derided, and used information and my awesome bluff skill to 'fight back'. NOW, our cavalier entrusts scrolls and tomes with me...and now I extend my service plan to cover the identification of magical items, scrolls, etc. Am I bad? I doubt it. Is he? Not really. It's been pretty interesting role playing it to this point after a few months. It feels...genuine. Like the characters have honestly developed a relationship. Bad things aren't always bad when they play out, you know? Let the fighter not get healed. See if he learns his lesson. If people are actually RPing, it should end up making for a good story assuming the group doesn't die. :)
Yes, I know I wrote a lot.
@Dark Immortal, in case you think I am excusing the fighter's behavior, I'm not. But if I'm the GM it's going to take more than that for me to attempt to intervene as some sort of kindergarten teacher. I would probably make a few comments to one or two party members about some consequences being levied against the character for his actions, but I'm not going to have some sort of divine retribution levied against him. I consider this an in character party issue first and foremost.
My only point is that any character of mine is not going to cut off his nose to spite his face. I'm not going to be at risk of the party being at less than full strength out of nothing but spite. So I'd heal the fighter, but then if I wanted to enforce some other penalty, I might pull the group together and withhold his share of the loot for the encounter. Or I might just take the group right back to the nearest town and kick his butt off the team.
Thomas, I've been coy with my class because my main was a rogue, and rogues are despised. I loved the rogue for lots of reasons, not the least of which is that the rogue is the only WoW class that is a front-line melee character with LIGHT ARMOR. That means you have to be smart. But if you are smart, you can out-DPS any other class. Well, most of the time. There were times that Sony tweaked retribution paladins to the point that they were doing crazy damage, and there was a time that warlocks were doing crazy damage at range without even being in combat, but those were short-term glitches. For the long haul a well-played rogue was the ultimate in DPS, but you had to be damn good to survive the raids. For that reason rogues were generally avoided by raid leaders. So to be on a raid team as a rogue was, in itself, a feat worthy of respect.
And it wasn't all drudgery. Lots of things were a lot of fun. And when you are a top raiding toon in a top raiding guild you are sort of like WoW royalty. People can scan your toon to see your gear and they can set their view to see your guild, so when I walked into the main areas of any major city, believe me, people noticed. All of us were deluged with requests to join the guild to the point that I had the guild website hotkeyed on my keyboard so I could just hit the key and move on.
I bought an ultra fast gaming computer and a high-end specialized trackball/joystick device.
And every now and then I'd just get on my dragon and fly around the world (where you could fly anyway). If I got bored I'd go into enemy areas and do PvP behind the lines. I used to skulk around enemy cities ganking unususpecting enemies right in the midst of their main castle.
Every now and then our guild would hop on our choppers and just roar into an enemy city and lay waste to the place.
And for a good chunk of time I was a pure PvP player, spending all of my time in the PvP instances. Loved taking down a full-blown tank without them being able to do anything but stand there and watch...
I hear ya, AD. Vanilla raiding priest, BC raided primarily on a prot pally, alts of all flavors elsewhere. I quit WoW shortly before the last pre-Northrend content release in BC. The pressures on my priest in particular were great, especially since I had a more traditional raid guild, where priests bidding DKP on DPS was taboo and I was nearly shunned when I told the guild leader that I'd be choosing either my gear purchases or my spec. That said, he told me to heal the pets in AQ first boss fight (it was important for that fight) after I jumped to Shadow, so I popped Vamp Embrace and shot lasers all fight because I didn't have a pet friendly UI.
I spent much of my time farming for alchemy mats to support my consumables and help afford my repair bills.
What I miss from WoW, I'm now making up for with LotRO. It's not the same, but that's not a bad thing. It certainly feels less stressful for me and I don't feel the need to constantly prove myself like I did in WoW, where I spent entirely too much time breaking barriers that others constructed out of ignorance.
Proving that pre-revamp vanilla Holy spec was viable with its 3.5 second Greater Heal? That was me and virtually no other raiding priest on the planet. Early BC pally tanking? I was an early adopter and was considered one of the best pally tanks on Cenarius before I left, outstripping one of the top MT warriors on the server in threat and rivaling in mitigation. The resistance to everything I did in raiding was great because I was determined to be awesome and everybody thought that it was suboptimal.
Anyway, I feel your pain. I used to be there, too, though never at the top tier of raiding. I was always a tier back, at best, but the pressures are still great there.
Guys, can we keep the postings to Pathfinder, OK?
Guys, can we keep the postings to Pathfinder, OK?
My apologies.
Guys, can we keep the postings to Pathfinder, OK?
LOL, OMG you got your MMORPG in my peanut butter!!!
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Frankly, I found the MMORPG discussion far more interesting than the 'all praise Leroy Jenkins' thread this was turning into for a while.
Frankly, I found the MMORPG discussion far more interesting than the 'all praise Leroy Jenkins' thread this was turning into for a while.
You make a point, and it'd be fun to read in Off Topic.