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I rebuilt Ileosa for my group as I felt the Ileosa in the module was too weak to face off with a 6 - 8 man party. But, I am a little concerned I may have overbuilt her for the party and was wondering if any GMs out there could take a look and tell me what they think.
Now, I actually built Ileosa just before Christmas, but at around the same time, my computer took a dive and I've been without one since then. I managed to recover the entirety of the hard drive, so nothing was lost, but I can't open the Hero Labs folder as I don't currently have access to it, so I can't tell you exactly what I did to get her to where she's at.
What I do recall, though, is that I rebuilt the devil-bound template for Hero Labs, used the Human favored class bonus to give her more spells, built her on a 32 point buy as outlined in the module, and gave her the gear from the module. I envision her as a caster bard, not a warrior bard as is very commonly played now days, because Ileosa quite simply has the stats and ability to play such a caster.
With the change of vanilla bard to Sound Striker, I feel this gives her more of the kick she needs to stay a relevant threat to the party. She will have Simulacrums of herself, which are also Sound Strikers, that can use their weird words to wittle down the parties health while she rains spells down upon them, or taunts them as need be.
To give the players a little heads up, I plan on setting up a scene where the party either hears about, or witness (via scrying or other methods) Ileosa subjugating the remaining nobles of Korvosa, and executing some people she claims to be Traitors to the Crown by simply using her voice (Weird Words). After the display of her power, she'll use Overwhelming Presence to force the Nobles to begin worshiping her. I'm hoping that the small glimpse into her abilities will allow them to adequately prepare for her.
Currently my party consists of a Mystic Theurge, an Arcane Archer, an Archer Bard, a Cleric/Paladin, a Paladin, a Rogue/Duelist, a Rogue, and a Greatsword Fighter. We may be picking up another player when an old friend moves back into town in a few months. I will say that challenging this party has been, well, a challenge. Having the right mix of minions, mooks, brute strength, and magical might to properly challenge them with foes is a tough endeavor, especially when you don't want a TPK on your hands. The party is on the verge of entering Scarwall (which will take place this Sunday), so I have quite some time to nail down Ileosa before they even get to her.
Any feedback or advice from anyone would be of great help.
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From my own experience ( with an also powerfully rebuilt Ileosa ), the party will easily stomp her and the minions she has with her. Unless they walk in without any mental protections like, say, Protection from Evil, in which case it can turn ugly, fast. My guys went in warded and didn't were too challenged. The action economy works something fierce against Ily.
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I think the kind of power Ileosa has make for a kinda bad encounter. Spells like Charm Monster and it's kin are either useless (do nothing) or they simply destroy the PCs. Would advise to shift the focus away from domination spells. There is nothing in the fluff of queen Ileosa that suggests that anyway.
built her on a 32 point buy as outlined in the module
32 point buy in 3.5 isn't the same as 32 point buy in Pathfinder. I think the equivalent is 25.
I can certainly appreciate wanting to take Maestro of the Society, especially if you were actually playing her as a character from low levels, but you have to make her a member of the Pathfinder faction to do so.
That's a bit hard to swallow.
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From my own experience ( with an also powerfully rebuilt Ileosa ), the party will easily stomp her and the minions she has with her. Unless they walk in without any mental protections like, say, Protection from Evil, in which case it can turn ugly, fast. My guys went in warded and didn't were too challenged. The action economy works something fierce against Ily.
Truthfully, the action economy concerns me as well. That's why I gave her some Summon Monster spells so she could put up some more resistance and give her the time needed to do what she needs to fight the party. I'm hoping that between the Summoned Monsters, the simulacrums, the wraiths and any remaining erinyes, the party will take long enough for her to be serious threat and not just curb stomp through everything.
The Simulacrums will be 10th level versions of Ileosa, which I have in Hero Labs but never made a PDF of. They will all be capable of unleashing up to ten, 1d8 + Cha Weird Words blasts. I also play with the belief that all ten Weird Words can target an individual person. My hope here is that, with the Weird Words, the Simulacrums will be capable of dealing enough damage to still remain a threat, where as tenth level versions of a vanilla bard against ~16th level PCs won't be much of an issue, especially since they have non-magical gear.
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I think the kind of power Ileosa has make for a kinda bad encounter. Spells like Charm Monster and it's kin are either useless (do nothing) or they simply destroy the PCs. Would advise to shift the focus away from domination spells. There is nothing in the fluff of queen Ileosa that suggests that anyway.
This is true, but while the fluff doesn't outright state she used charm spells, she was very successful at seducing both the King and his brother, and I think Charm spells played a role here.
I also fashioned Queen Ileosa as more of an enchantress when I was running the game. The PCs believed she was totally innocent of anything that had happened up until the end of Seven Days, and then with the knowledge they gained during Escape and Historys, they believe that Kazavon is possessing her and that she can still be saved.
I also felt that Charm and Dominations pells played a role in initially converting the Grey Maidens into her bodyguards, but that as events progressed further, she focused less and less on Korvosa, and more and more on the Everdawn Pool.
I recently ran my party through the module Seven Swords of Sin where they face off against a powerful Enchantress named Tirana, sort of as a prequel to the fight they could face off with against Ileosa. While the party took all the right spells (Magic Circle, Protection from Evil, etc), Dispel Magic can remove such buffs to allow things like Charm and Dominate to penetrate. But they also brought spells like Suppress Charms and Compulsions. The goal is to take an action away from the casters, so they won't be slinging spells off themselves.
Every round that the party doesn't directly target Ileosa, is another rought that her minions will be able to threaten the Party. Also, keep in mind, that they will have enough time to face her twice, and the second time around, any minions they destroy, will be one they don't have to face the second time if they have to come back.
Well that might certainly bump up the challenge then! :-)built her on a 32 point buy as outlined in the module32 point buy in 3.5 isn't the same as 32 point buy in Pathfinder. I think the equivalent is 25.
Hmm, that certainly does change things a little bit. When I get a new computer, and redownload Hero Labs, I may change her stats a little.
I can certainly appreciate wanting to take Maestro of the Society, especially if you were actually playing her as a character from low levels, but you have to make her a member of the Pathfinder faction to do so.
That's a bit hard to swallow.
Often times when I make a character like Ileosa, I'll ignore the fluff behind traits or feats like Maestro of the Society if it gives me the result I wanted. In this regard, I believe Maestro gives Ileos three extra rounds of Bardic Performance. While not a big deal in the grand scheme of things, I believe I gave it to her because it rounded her performances off to 60, which was fine in my book.
Thanks for all the feedback on Queen Ileosa. As time draws closer, and I work on the final showdown more and more, I'll try to outline exactly how I envision the fight going with the party.
I honestly don't expect my party to reach Ileosa until next year. Largely because my group always takes April - August off for summer break, vacations and the like. We are also playing in three different campaigns and alternate every week, playing on Sundays, so I don't forsee even starting Crown of Fangs until January at the earliest.
But it is always good to have things nailed down ahead of time, which is why I'm starting now, instead of putting it off until last minute.
Also, sorry for the flood of responses, I'm posting from my Xbox, so I can't copy/paste replies into one big message and it makes things posting on forums slow going and difficult
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When I run this, Ileosa isn't going to be a bard, she's going to be a Sorcerer / Dragon Disciple 10. This made a lot more sense to me. Sure, she'll have lots of lightning spells, but she'll have a variety of weapons and defenses to deal with the PCs. She can still focus on being an enchantress in her early career (perhaps the infernal bloodline). I'm not sure of the exact details, but she won't be a bard.
Bards are support characters and aren't in their element when they don't have lots of minions to buff. I thought Stilts Pilsner (#3) was a great bard villain because he had the minions and space to operate.
Since this is an AP, I've also nerfed some spells which would make the encounter a lot better, spells such as Prot Evil (has no effect on charms/compulsions), Prot from Charm (doesn't exist), Haste (affects only 1 PC, mass haste is a level 6 spell), and Blessing of Fervor (you can only have 1 round with an extra attack). I feel some spells ruin the game and I'm right so far in my playtesting, I'm seeing better variety out of my spellcasters. Some magic items are also not available as well.
This probably doesn't help you since you seem like you're going to make her a bard anyway, but I thought I'd give you a different perspective.
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She has enough minions to buff, but the problem is that those minions won't last one round against a single character at level 15-16. And they won't be able to hit the party. My players went in as a party of five, with Trinia and Laori as cohorts. Basically it was the airwalking Paladin of the group who finished Ileosa off in two rounds, while the others swatted the simulacrums and wraiths off with ease. I didn't even get to kill the Druids animal companion again. :(
You might want to look into creating some additional negative conditions for your party when they enter the room. The encounter with Katiyana in the third module of Jade Regent may be a good primer on how to do that.
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I think the kind of power Ileosa has make for a kinda bad encounter. Spells like Charm Monster and it's kin are either useless (do nothing) or they simply destroy the PCs. Would advise to shift the focus away from domination spells. There is nothing in the fluff of queen Ileosa that suggests that anyway.This is true, but while the fluff doesn't outright state she used charm spells, she was very successful at seducing both the King and his brother, and I think Charm spells played a role here.
I also fashioned Queen Ileosa as more of an enchantress when I was running the game. The PCs believed she was totally innocent of anything that had happened up until the end of Seven Days, and then with the knowledge they gained during Escape and Historys, they believe that Kazavon is possessing her and that she can still be saved.
I also felt that Charm and Dominations pells played a role in initially converting the Grey Maidens into her bodyguards, but that as events progressed further, she focused less and less on Korvosa, and more and more on the Everdawn Pool.
I recently ran my party through the module Seven Swords of Sin where they face off against a powerful Enchantress named Tirana, sort of as a prequel to the fight they could face off with against Ileosa. While the party took all the right spells (Magic Circle, Protection from Evil, etc), Dispel Magic can remove such buffs to allow things like Charm and Dominate to penetrate. But they also brought spells like Suppress Charms and Compulsions. The goal is to take an action away from the casters, so they won't be slinging spells off themselves.
Every round that the party doesn't directly target Ileosa, is another rought that her minions will be able to threaten the Party. Also, keep in mind, that they will have enough time to face her twice, and the second time around, any minions they destroy, will be one they don't have to face the second time if they have to come back.
Ileosa surely could have echieved all of the effects you described (seducing kings and gray maidens with magical compulsion) by being a sorcerer (dragon bloodline) and having an insane charisma score. The king was weak willed in the first place, and the gray maidens are low level enough that by the time Ileosa got around to them, charming them should be really easy for her anyway.
She is wearing the fangs of a mighty dragon, and from a story point of view that's where her powers come from. For me that easily means she should be a dragonblooded sorcerer, maybe with levels in dragon disciple. I'm probably going to have her only be 18th level or so in my campaign, but alos give her some cool, unique powers from the Crown of Fangs to cover for the lost levels.
Also... and this is more about personal opinion than an interpretation to the fluff of the AP... a bard as the BBEG at the very end of an AP is not nearly as cool as a dragon sorceress. Somehow, defeating a high level bard is just no quite as cool.
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Can't copy/paste on my Xbox so I can't properly reply you Lord Snow. I did actually think about changing her class entirely, but my problem with the Dragon Disciple route is that Ileosa would have to of been of Dragon lineage to be a Dragon Blood sorcerer. Either that or being possessed by the fragment of Kazavon would allow her to step down the Dragon Blood Sorcerer path. That means the levels she had before gaining the Fangs of Kazavon would still be there.
Ileosa was already kind of wonky being an Aristocrat/Bard, but an Aristocrat/Bard/Sorcer/Dragon Disciple, or an Aristocrat/Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple or something like that just wouldn't work out well in my opinion. True, you could just rebuild her from the ground up as pure Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple, but then there's the whole problem with her being a 0hd race with no levels up until she discovered the fangs. I, personally, like internal consistency. I also wanted to keep as true to the module as I could, while still giving the bump in power needed to keep her a threat.
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She has enough minions to buff, but the problem is that those minions won't last one round against a single character at level 15-16. And they won't be able to hit the party. My players went in as a party of five, with Trinia and Laori as cohorts. Basically it was the airwalking Paladin of the group who finished Ileosa off in two rounds, while the others swatted the simulacrums and wraiths off with ease. I didn't even get to kill the Druids animal companion again. :(
You might want to look into creating some additional negative conditions for your party when they enter the room. The encounter with Katiyana in the third module of Jade Regent may be a good primer on how to do that.
What about her Sound Striker Simulacrums? The Weird Words ability uses a touch attack, so it'd be easy to hit most people. True, it does allow a fortitude save for half, but there will quite a few of them that can focus fire the toughest enemies. My hope is the Simulacrums will be able to pose enough of a threat that they can't be ignored, while the Dread Wraiths and the Erinyes will be able to hurt/hinder the remaining party memebers long enough for the party to be threatened.
I want them to kill a few minions, get a few good hits on Ileosa, and get the hint to flee. Then, on the second round with (hopefully) several of her minions dead, the second fight against Ileosa will be the finisher, and then they have to deal with the whole blood-dragon-Kazavon thing.
If necessary, I can add more Minions or even bump the, up in power a little. I'm trying to find that sweet spot right now between minions, minion power, and Ileosa's power. I want her fight to be a good one, I'd feel rather bad if they curb-stomped the final boss. Don't want them to feel like 2-3 years of gaming was ended in a 6 round fight.
While I want to remain as close to the AP as possible, I'm not afraid of changing the numbers or levels of people, or even the type of enemy if it thematically fits, for my party to go up against.
Ultimately, my goal is to tell a good story. If I can tell a good story, and my players enjoyed it, then I can throw the AP out the window, as long as every one is happy and satisfied. But I would like to keep to the AP as I do enjoy the story that has unfolded.
6 round fight? It will be over 3-4 after combat begins, maximum time. That's the harsh reality of high level encounters, unless you manage to create enough negative conditions to prevent their action economy from overwhelming her and the minions.
Hell, I had to combine five encounters in Castle Korvosa to give the players a decent challenge and they still ROFL-stomped the encounter in 3-4 rounds. The Horned Devil, the Red Mantis + their leader, a unit of elite Grey Maidens, the Barbed Devils and Togomor. One almost dead PC, averted through a Harrow card power and minor injuries for the rest.
The simulacrums are chaff. They can't reliably hit a decently equipped character and the only thing they do is stand in the way. The Erinyes also will be barely able to hit anything and their Unholy Blight does pitiful damage against a high-level party ( since everybody will be able to make their saves easily ). The Dread Wraiths are the only other opponents of real concern, since they can hit easily and it will depend on your party casting or not casting Death Ward on everyone.
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Can't copy/paste on my Xbox so I can't properly reply you Lord Snow. I did actually think about changing her class entirely, but my problem with the Dragon Disciple route is that Ileosa would have to of been of Dragon lineage to be a Dragon Blood sorcerer. Either that or being possessed by the fragment of Kazavon would allow her to step down the Dragon Blood Sorcerer path. That means the levels she had before gaining the Fangs of Kazavon would still be there.
Ileosa was already kind of wonky being an Aristocrat/Bard, but an Aristocrat/Bard/Sorcer/Dragon Disciple, or an Aristocrat/Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple or something like that just wouldn't work out well in my opinion. True, you could just rebuild her from the ground up as pure Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple, but then there's the whole problem with her being a 0hd race with no levels up until she discovered the fangs. I, personally, like internal consistency. I also wanted to keep as true to the module as I could, while still giving the bump in power needed to keep her a threat.
Don't ever let the final battle of a cmapaign be less cool for sech trivial details!
When Ileosa found the crown she really wasn't much too look at, as far as levels are concerned - she was a spoiled, mean tempered, ambitious brat who was taking advantage of an old lecherous man. Really, I'd be fine with her being a level 1 NPC character by the time she found the crown. Then, the power from the Fangs of Kazavon became so dominating that the rest is not important anymore - she's a 20th level dragon blooded sorceress/dragon disciple, ignore the rest.
Or at least, that's my approach. I respect your, too :)
EDIT: I mean, every PC has a life before becoming an adventurer, but THEY don't have to start their game as commoner 1/ fighter 1 or whatever, so why should Ileosa be forced to have levels as an aristocrat?
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Illeosa could easily be a bard/dragon disciple, all that is needed is arcane spell casting from a spontaneous caster. She doesnt NEED sorceror to go into that.
If Illeosa isnt enough of a fight, bump her to a 10/10 bard disciple. and make her simulacrums 6/6 bard/DD.
Illeosa as a bard in some mithral breastplate with some magic enhancements would make a bit more or a physcial fight for something like a meelist running in on her.
Alternatively a crossblooded sorcerer (infernal/dragon) would work nicely, and fit into the plot line. Ileosa was just the one perfect piece kazavon needed to be there, at that time, to try his come back. Infernal makes sense because she comes from Cheliax and the dragon blood could union from the other side of the family, the perfect combination for a Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple.
Illeosa may never have even known of her dragon blood until kazavon got a hold of her.
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+1 Snow
She has basically been possessed by the spirit of Kazavon and given extraordinary powers, dragon powers. I have no problem with her gaining levels in any dragon related levels that make sense. The crown is powerful enough that previous Sorc levels (in another bloodline) could have even been converted to dragon.
But like I said, you sound like you have your mind made up, I just don't find a Bard finish is appealing to me personally.
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I totally forgot about Bard's being able to level up as Dragon Disciple...
Hmmm, I'm going to need to give this a lot of thought. A Sound Striker Bard/DD could make for a very mean opponent. DD would also allow her to easily perform the execution she gave to the Captain of the Sable Company Marines (forgot his name).
I think I'm going to have build a Dragon Disciple version and compare the two and see which one I like.
Thanks for the help! You guys are giving me great feedback.
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The Sable Company guy's name is Commandant Marcus Endrin. He's pretty forgettable, though. I mean, all he does is die ;p
In my game, I ran her as an aristocrat 2/sorcerer 18 (dragon bloodline) which worked out fairly well. Although she didn't have the physical power of the dragon disciple, her simulacrum minions still packed a whallop with their lightning bolt spells (and since there are 6 of them in the final fight...)
From my own experience ( with an also powerfully rebuilt Ileosa ), the party will easily stomp her and the minions she has with her. Unless they walk in without any mental protections like, say, Protection from Evil, in which case it can turn ugly, fast. My guys went in warded and didn't were too challenged. The action economy works something fierce against Ily.
Exactly what happend to my group they warded up and stormed her. I had 6-8 PC's who really broght the bacon.
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I had 3 PCs, Gestalt, with two Cohorts, also gestalt, and Majenko as an NPC.
I made Ileosa a level 20 Court Bard/ Destined Sorceress, with a ridiculous stat block to challenge my group. We have slightly modified meta magic rules, but she had a bunch, as well as access to Time Stop.
I had her utilize a projected image and deemed she could cast from within the blood pool due to the attunement process. This left them ferreting around with a gaggle of fake queens and Mavrokeras, who they hadn't encountered in the castle and came here. The wraiths went for the paladin, but he was wearing the scarab.
We got in at least 6 rounds and had at least two hero point usages to avoid certain death before they used a Wish from the deck of many things to change the table on Ileosa. Then she had to face them more directly, still gave it her all, then ignanimously got cleaved by the sword.
All in all that build was pretty hardy. Get rid of aristocrat. Gestalt her. Make her stats better than the players'. She is omniscient in the Sunken Queen so buff the crap out of her. Spam the minions. It's worth giving them a tough last run.
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If I do it again, I will also have her support the boggards, wraiths, and devils with her bardic skills. The critters at the sunken queen, with any Castle Korvosa survivors, and Ileosa supporting them will certainly challenge PC's. And like CaroRose mentioned she could easily do it all from inside the safety of the sunkenqueen.
What about giving her some better minions/security? A pit fiend at her side or a few horned devils and a couple of ice devils. The encounters in books 6 look rather lame/easy for the climax of the campaign, and from the sounds of it on this thread they don't offer much challenge.
Um, Raptor, Protection from Evil works perfectly against Song of Discord, because SoD is a compulsion effect which exercises a sort of mental control ( it makes you attack each other ) over the targets. So I fear you made a wrong call there.
The wording is very exact: "While under the effects of this spell, the target is immune to any new attempts to possess or exercise mental control over the target." In my reading, mental control is something which extends to things like Confusion, because the caster is making the target do things he would not do if in his right mind. Your reading sounds too much like nit-picking a spell to circumvent its function for my taste.
And, believe me, I get it. It sucks that a level one spell can render the main offensive powers of a whole class meaningless. But that is what the designers gave us and I am not going to twist and turn a spell function until it doesn't work anymore. Ileosa can dispel magic with the best of them, after all.
The wording is very exact: "While under the effects of this spell, the target is immune to any new attempts to possess or exercise mental control over the target." In my reading, mental control is something which extends to things like Confusion, because the caster is making the target do things he would not do if in his right mind. Your reading sounds too much like nit-picking a spell to circumvent its function for my taste.
And, believe me, I get it. It sucks that a level one spell can render the main offensive powers of a whole class meaningless. But that is what the designers gave us and I am not going to twist and turn a spell function until it doesn't work anymore. Ileosa can dispel magic with the best of them, after all.
FWIW my reading of it is that it is much more limited - it stops the conduit from the controller to the controlee, so they can't order them around, dominate them etc. The intent does not appear to be that it gives blanket immunity to mind affecting magic, and it certainly does not say that. I'm not sure why you think that is its function; going back to 1e it was a "no touch" spell, including mental touch.
At least in 3.5 the protection from mental control was complete. And the wording I cited above is also very clear: "The target is immune to any new attempts to possess or exercise mental control over the target". I don't know how you can read this in any other way.
The debatable part is if the spell grants immunity per se or if the first part of the spell, that the target first gets a new save if he already is controlled, means that you need to make this second save even if you are protected from the start and only if you make it, you get the immunity.
FAQ makes it pretty cut and dry.
Well, I always thought "making the target do things it would not do ordinarily" would include Confusion, but apparently that is a case where the designers disagree. Although "attacking your allies" should logically be included in that.
I'd say the difference is that Confusion doesn't make - as in force, by the caster's will - the target to do anything, and the caster can't use it to exert any sort of control. It simply causes a randomized effect that may be beneficial to the caster by causing the target to become unpredictable and act erratically.
Or word it this way. There's no control going on, simply a lack of such on the target's part being introduced.
Well, I continue to disagree, but your interpretation is fine, too. ;)
Yes, RAW Confusion (and Song of Discord) works fine even if the target is warded with Protection from Evil.
Just one more reason not to have Ileosa as a Bard.
Protection from Evil is broken, in my campaign it doesn't make the target immune to compulsion and enchantments. A 1st level spell should make you immune to basically an entire school of magic.
The game is more fun when loss of mental control is possible. It also makes stats like Wisdom more relevant.
Well, I'd like to dispute that it's fun to lose control of your character for a number of rounds ( or even worse ). I generally notice that my players don't appreciate sitting around with nothing to do for hours on end. Combats take long in this game.
Well, I'd like to dispute that it's fun to lose control of your character for a number of rounds ( or even worse ). I generally notice that my players don't appreciate sitting around with nothing to do for hours on end. Combats take long in this game.
If it's unfun (for you), then don't have "lose control" spells as part of the game. Or modify how the spells work so it is fun.
But don't pretend it's part of the game when a 1st level spell can give you blanket immunity to an entire genre of spells. Immunity is bad game design and as you can see, can make the entire climax to an entire AP a joke.
My campaign has not suffered from changing Protection from Evil.
I'm sure if you ask your players, Jason, they will answer you that they don't enjoy sitting around watching others play the game for a few hours, because their character was incapacitated. Or maybe you play with masochists.
Also, if you care enough to read other posts than my last one in this thread, it should be clear that I already said that Protection from alignment is too good for a first level spell. But per RAW, it is what it is.
My combats don't take hours. But you're right, losing control of your PC isn't that fun. It's also devastating when used on NPCs as well.
This is good motivation for coming up with new rules similar to WoW for control spells. Thanks.
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I have to disagree with Lord Snow here: I kind of like the bard approach. Something about Ileosa using only her voice to impose her evil will upon humanity seems appropriate for a narcissistic homicidal queen.
My group is just starting CoF and I'm still debating how to run Ileosa. I want to make a queen whose words carry power enough to lay PCs low, but I face an obstacle: one player took Leadership to get a bard who would spread tales of his greatness and buff him in combat (taken at beginning of HoA so Trinia was perfect fit). This player knows all about countersong which will kinda ruin the fight.
So I'm considering allowing her to ignore countersong because she is just too powerful while still allowing it to work on the simalucrums since they are but pale shadows of Ileosa's majesty, OR going with a dragon sorc and re-flavoring all of her spells to seem like they are just her voice (only verbal components and such--possibly not provoking attacks of opportunity like bardic performance).
I think I can justify bending the rules for a queen possessed by Zon-Kuthon's chosen dragon warlord who is attuned with the Everdawn Pool. As long as the fight is interesting.
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So I've been working on Ileosa a little more and I've got two versions to show.
The first, is the original Ileosa I posted in the beginning of this thread. She's a caster bard with the Sound Striker archetype, with high charisma, and DCs for her spells. This Ileosa is a level 20 Sound Striker Bard with the Contract Bound (Erinyes) template.
The idea is that she'll use her minions to hold back the party while she hits them with spells or Weird Words. Her Simulacrums don't have very good spells or DCs, but they each pack Weird Words themselves, which allows them to generate 10 words that each do 1d8+10 with a DC 25 fort save for half. That may not seem like much, but there are 6 simulacrums, so in any given round, there could be 60d8+600 points of damage being unleashed by the simulacrums.
The next Ileosa is an Arcane Duelist Bard 10/Dragon Disciple 10, but she does not have the Contract Bound (Erinyes) template. I'm actually not certain on whether or not I should give it to her, as I used Eldritch Heritage to give her access to the Abyssal Bloodline powers. While the Abyssal Bloodline is supposed to be demonic, nothing in the bloodline itself is very 'demonish' and I could reflavor the Abyssal Bloodline as the benefits of Devil Contract.
She, while not as casty as the previous Ileosa, is potentially a lot more deadly. This Ileosa has embraced the dragonish features from Kazavon and relishes in shredding her enemies with her claws and bite. She is a threat even when she doesn't have her buffs going, but when she does, she's a terror. Possibly a little too powerful even. One tactic I came up with was to cast Greater Bladed Dash, then once she's done, use her Rod of Quicken to cast it again. Nasty little combo.
This is the DD Ileosa as above, but with some buffs applied. Namely: Arcane strike, Bladethirst, Blood rage, Good hope, Greater heroism, Haste, Inspire courage (via Shadowbard, Inspire greatness, Power attack, Shield. Most of the buffs are 1 min/level spells, while 2 are 1 round/level (Haste, Blood Rage), but considering that's still 17 rounds each, they will last awhile.
One spell that she can also use, is Dance of a Thousand Cuts, towards the end of the fight. This allows her to move and gain bonuses to attack, damage and AC, but she is limited to 1 attack as she's moving, but it also gives her Haste too. So if Haste gets dispelled or ends, she'll revert to the Dance spell to maintain an edge.
Dragon Disciple Ileosa - Buffed
I have yet to make Simulacrum versions of the DD Ileosa, but I will get around to it shortly. My problem now, is I like both versions of Ileosa. The Caster version very much so plays off the egomaniacal spoiled queen that Ileosa kind of comes off as, and it closely fits how I've portrayed her to my group, as more of a seductress. The problem, is her DCs are really high. While Protection from Evil neutralizes a lot of the spells, Dispel Magic can turn that off pretty quickly. She could easily end the battle with some well placed Charms/Dominations.
The Dragon Disciple Ileosa is a powerful melee entity. She could probably down any of the squishier party members in a single round, while easily going toe-to-toe with any of the tougher party members. She just has to worry about focus firing. Even then, she can cast Greater Invisibility and play assassin. If she hits with her Claw/Claw/Bite and has buffed herself, she's going to average 150 points of damage in a round.
Both Ileosa's are capable of summons, though the DD Ileosa is better at it. She has both Added Summons and Superior Summoning. So anytime she summons a creature with the fiendish template or a demon, she summons an extra one, and since her summons are technically summoning multiple creatures, Superior Summoning kicks in to summon a third. She could forego Dance of a Thousand Cuts to have 9 Fiendish Dire Tigers on the field as extra bodies.
I'm torn on which one I like better. Any opinions?
[Edit] Crap, forgot some stuff for the DD Ileosa. Her Spells-per-day are 6/6/6/5/4/3 and she also has a Wand of Magic Missile and Wand of Shield.
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As far as a more exciting opponent goes, I agree with Lord Snow that the Dragon Disciple is the better way to go. It also seems more thematic to me, given she wears the crown and is effectively inhabited by Kazavon. The greater bladed dash/metamagic quicken rod is a great combo, sure to drop a few characters (and jaws to the table). The down side, of course, is she is primarily a physical opponent and her offensive spells are sub par. She is painfully susceptible to touch attacks, might I suggest trading her ring of spell storing in for a ring of spell turning or counterspell (loaded with greater dispel magic)? I'd then swap her cure critical wounds (contigency) for stoneskin instead (triggered when physically attacked), and maybe carry a scroll of heal on hand.
IMO, however, the devilbound bard build is the more dangerous of the two. Her spell DCs are through the roof and will give the party a lot of trouble, especially song of discord and overwhelming presence. I think waves of ecstasy is a more effective (and more suitable) spell than dirge of the victorious knights for Ileosa - just seems to go with the whole seductress idea for her better. With her AC, saves and hp being considerably better than the DD, I'd say she is overall a much bigger threat.
Which brings me to the minions. The simulacrums with weird words are her physical offence, she just needs to focus on keeping a safe distance and crippling the party with spells and bardic performance. If you think she might need a few more bodyguards, have you considered a few ashmede devils? Multiple chain lightnings or horrid wiltings...ouch!
Fantastic job with the two builds, Tels, I will definately borrow one of them for my own group when they get there.
I've started stating up the DD Ileosa Simulacrums, and I can tell, they are a lot less deadly. They just don't have the raw power from the ability scores to pull off the same level of deadliness, while the Caster Ileosa Simulacrums draw most of their power from a class ability that maxes out at 10th level, so they get full power.
I think, I won't pick which one to use until the assault on the castle, as I'll have a much better picture on what my group will be willing (or able) to deal with.
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As far as a more exciting opponent goes, I agree with Lord Snow that the Dragon Disciple is the better way to go. It also seems more thematic to me, given she wears the crown and is effectively inhabited by Kazavon. The greater bladed dash/metamagic quicken rod is a great combo, sure to drop a few characters (and jaws to the table). The down side, of course, is she is primarily a physical opponent and her offensive spells are sub par. She is painfully susceptible to touch attacks, might I suggest trading her ring of spell storing in for a ring of spell turning or counterspell (loaded with greater dispel magic)? I'd then swap her cure critical wounds (contigency) for stoneskin instead (triggered when physically attacked), and maybe carry a scroll of heal on hand.
IMO, however, the devilbound bard build is the more dangerous of the two. Her spell DCs are through the roof and will give the party a lot of trouble, especially song of discord and overwhelming presence. I think waves of ecstasy is a more effective (and more suitable) spell than dirge of the victorious knights for Ileosa - just seems to go with the whole seductress idea for her better. With her AC, saves and hp being considerably better than the DD, I'd say she is overall a much bigger threat.
Which brings me to the minions. The simulacrums with weird words are her physical offence, she just needs to focus on keeping a safe distance and crippling the party with spells and bardic performance. If you think she might need a few more bodyguards, have you considered a few ashmede devils? Multiple chain lightnings or horrid wiltings...ouch!
Fantastic job with the two builds, Tels, I will definately borrow one of them for my own group when they get there.
Well, I'm not too worried about touch attacks, I posted my party in the original post (Mystic Theurge, an Arcane Archer, an Archer Bard, a Cleric/Paladin, a Paladin, a Rogue/Duelist, a Rogue, and a Greatsword Fighter) and they don't use many touch attacks. There is A LOT of melee in that group, with 2 archers and only 1 real spell caster. The Cleric Paladin is a cohort of the Mystic Theurge, and the Archer Bard is a rebuilt Trinia. Both Paladins, both Rogues, and the Fighter are all melee, so touch attacks aren't really an issue.
I will look into changing out your items though, maybe come up with something different. Also, I spent less money on the DD Ileosa than the Caster Ileosa (who I just copied the gear out of the module), so she can always get more stuff.
I agree somewhat on the Caster Ileosa, she is potentially devastating, but it mostly relies on will saves. I chose dirge of the victorious knights specifically because it targets reflex, and not will saves.
The Ashmede Devils are certainly intriguing, but I don't expect to need them. I highly doubt the party will come across the Dread Wraiths, so for either group, there will be 3 Dread Wraiths, 6 Simulacrums, Summons, and Ileosa herself. Tossing in a few Ashmede devils might ensure a TPK. But I'm going to toss it around. Reflex saves are fairly good in my group, especially the two rogues. So it might work. I could easily see an opening Salvo from either Ileosa terrifying to be on the wrong side of.
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I'm glad you brought the party makeup to my attention, I didn't realize there were eight (and possibly nine?) characters in the group. Even if they're primarily a melee group, they should be around 15th-16th level by the time they reach Ileosa and will probably make short work of either build. Action economy demands it. Most of her mooks will be taken out in a round or two with a party that size and, if they've had the heads up display of her power prior to this encounter, then chances are good they will have some silence spells and earplugs handy.
To mitigate this, rather than throwing in more monsters, some battlefield control is needed to slow them down. One suggestion is have her summon a shadow demon (or three with the DD) to spam deeper darkness each round and give Ileosa and her simulacri echolocation as a 4th level spell. This should even the playing field without reaching beyond her limits. Not trying to engineer a TPK here, just a challenging fight. A 15th or 16th-level party of eight will win this battle unless they have a horrible run of bad luck with dice rolls, so make them work for it. Back when I ran Age of Worms, the group had a mystic theurge and once he hit 15th level he really hit his stride and became a dominant power on the battlefield.
As for touch attacks, my only concern was touch of idiocy on the caster Ileosa and ray of enfeeblement on the DD.
Hope that helps.
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You know, I've been giving it some serious thought, and while I love how deadly the Dragon Disciple Ileosa is, the Caster version has a lot on her side. Between her spells and minions, she can cover a lot of basis. Damage, status effects, control, etc, while the DD Ileosa focuses a lot more on just straight damage. I'm definitely going to have to keep the Bard/DD combo in mind for a PC or Villain in the future though, that combo is fantastic.
I think I may try and change some of her feats to see if I can't get either Eldritch Heritage or Augment/Superior Summons in there as well. Either option will make her stronger, and give her the chance to give as good a fight as possible. I'm going to try and re-engineer her to focus on disabling as many people as possible. Every round that the casters are neutralizing effects (like Charm, Dominate, Wall of Sound etc.) is another round that the simulacrums and Ileosa get to hurt the party. The Caster Ileosa also makes it so everyone in the party has something to do. The Theurge, Cohort, and Trinia all need to neutralize as much magic as possible. The Archer needs to focus on either Ileosa herself or (very likely) the Simulacrums. The Paladin will very likely focus on Ileosa (he'll probably have Serithtial) while the Fighter supports him, or targets the mooks. The Rogues can be batting clean up by engaging the Simulacrums, Wraiths and Summons.
I have this mental picture in my head of the first couple rounds of Combat, Ileosa stays in her blob of blood, casting spells from within, before emerging a couple of rounds later (after a few mooks have perished). While in the blood, she can't be targeted and is effectively invulnerable, but the blob takes on the appearance of her face. Almost like a video game boss fight that happens in stages.
Hmm, that is a thought. Maybe if she takes too much damage, she retreats to her blood blob, uses the Fast healing to recover, before emerging again?