Ideas for a Paladin Build, or other good paladin archetype combos / styles?


Advice

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Grand Lodge

DarkMidget wrote:

Hard to say about the Toughness Vs. Extra Lay On Hands thing. At LATER levels, say even level 10, the +10 HP might be more effective than being able to heal 2-12 extra HP a day. Toughness gets even better by comparison at higher levels. Though it is VERY arguable that with Greater Mercy, as well as my Oath, the lay on hands is a very valuable addition, if not better. Will have to see... I need Critical Focus to go down the Critical feat chain, but I REALLY also like Furious Focus for pure damage output without much lack of to-hit. Though I am unsure if it's necessary or forsake-able.

Just to point out, here's the actual math. Toughness gives +10 HP. At 10th level, your LoH will heal for 5d6 (more if you have greater mercy or fey foundling). Each Extra LoH gives you 2 LoHs, which have a range from 5-30. Having two of them will bring the BARE MINIMUM of 10, with a max at 60, ranging around 35 HP healed. If you were truly concerned about HP, you'd put the FC points into HP, not skill points. For a build like this, toughness is a waste of a feat. Fey Foundling heals you +2 per level (so it is the same as toughness at every even level, better than toughness with greater mercy) PER heal.

Master Marshmallow wrote:
Babouch wrote:

" Like, for example, when a paladin finally gets spells, do they count as caster level 1?"

Yes, at level 4, Pally's got a caster level of 1.

About toughness, Extra Lay of Hands > Toughness, more hp/effective health and more versatility (and better with greater mercy).

thing is, one could argue that he needs those HP first in case he gets hit so hard that having an extra LoH wont matter

he took both anyway, but another extra loh in its place would have synergy with his oath powers so i can still see this argument made for this case

for 2nd level spells you may want to consider bear's endurance, another boost for HP could be really useful

In this case, the paladin spells solve this. Hero's defiance is an immediate action LoH +1d6 when you drop. The average heal from LoH from any level (barring first of course, but this discussion isn't even relevant at first since he isn't taking toughness then) is higher that the level of the paladin at all levels.


I have pointed out a few times I don't want to take Fey Foundling because my character's actual back-story doesn't include fey or me being found at all; my character had two human parents, one a Tian-Min noblewoman, and one a Korvosan man. The effect is pretty cool, but I don't want to change my story to something odd like that. Then again, my DM may be more than willing to allow me to just change the flavor to like "Practiced Healer" or something. Then again, I don't even get Lay on Hands til level 2, so it wouldn't be useful until level 3, but I have to take it at level 1, if I am correct... Hm.

Yeah, I forgot that Lay on Hands' healing actually went up for some stupid reason. It was late when I posted that lol. I was thinking only uses did, but anyway, sleepiness aside..

True. I didn't want to really put the FC bonus into HP because I am already kind of skill deprived, but for RP purposes wanted a few more skills.

I guess my HP would still be high enough and my survivability well enough to forsake Toughness and take an extra lay on hands at 3rd level as well, I suppose? I did like the idea of toughness, but I suppose the healing to offset a few hit points isn't a bad idea. It'd also sync well with smiting and whatnot.


Lunge is a good feat to take around 7th if you want to give yourself on-demand reach with a minor penalty to AC.


i personally like furious focus a lot later on, it lets you get mad + to hit, and i like to always hit, i wanna be able to hit on a natural 2
getting +5 from a feat cannot be bested, i highly suggest it


That's very true. Okay. Well, I guess the only real things left to debate or figure out are:

1) Toughness Vs An Extra Lay On Hands at level 3
2) What spells I take for unsanctioned knowledge.


1) up to you really, if your HP are looking okay to you, the extra LoH will have synergy with your build, i personally would go with extra loh

2) depends on you, all i can say is 3rd level grab Displacement and 4th level grab Divine Power, 1st level is the hardest to pick imo, Shield of Faith is solid, tho it doesnt stack with your smiting AC which is probly why paladins dont get it anymore, and i like the animal buffs at 2nd level (specifically for you Bear's Endurance)

the most common spells are the most common for a reason: because they work


Well, my HP at first level without Toughness is 12. That's not bad at all, really. Since technically in the end, Toughness will only give +1 HP/level, it doesn't really bug me to lose that.

Displacement and Divine Power sound like the most likely choices for those levels, I'd say.
1st and 2nd level are weird ones. I was contemplating taking Eagle's Splendor too, but... Hm...


eagle's splendor will benefit you less if you ever get a headband of CHA because it wont stack, and you also already have it on your spell list


Oh, right. It's kind of odd that Bear's Endurance never was on the paladin spell list by default.


DarkMidget wrote:
Oh, right. It's kind of odd that Bear's Endurance never was on the paladin spell list by default.

half casters only get half of them, its a legacy thing

in 3.0 and 3.5 the paladins casting stat was based off WIS so they got owl's wisdom and eagle's splendor as priorities

the ranger is also missing an important one, being bull's strength, as they get cat's grace, owl's wisdom, and bear's endurance

oath against the wyrm paladins and the ranger archetype that adds druid spells to their spell list get access to these spells


Ohhh, okay. Makes sense, I suppose. Anyway, since I'm basically done my character at the moment, I will keep people updated as I actually start playing him. Which should be some time in early April. The group kinda fell apart as two of the people (the monk and bard) keep having really late night closing shifts, so we're just trying to find one more to make it an even 4. (Me as Paladin, one as a Zen Archer, one as a Rogue, and 4th as nothing yet.)


Oh! While we're at it, I have a question since many people seem to be used to playing as the Oath of Vengeance Paladin.

That ability that allows the paladin to give other characters the ability to smite: Does it use the PALADIN's charisma for purposes of that? Can everyone smite a different target? Can they use the bonus on ranged attacks? The description of it is rather vague and hard to fully grasp. It's kinda silly.


DarkMidget wrote:
That ability that allows the paladin to give other characters the ability to smite: Does it use the PALADIN's charisma for purposes of that? Can everyone smite a different target? Can they use the bonus on ranged attacks? The description of it is rather vague and hard to fully grasp. It's kinda silly.

Does it use the Paladin's Charisma for the purposes of smiting? They gain the paladin's bonus to damage, but not the attack bonus or the ability to bypass damage reduction.

Can everyone smite a different target? I do not see anything that suggests that they do or that they do not. I would go with, "It's valid." given the wording.

Can they use the bonus on ranged attacks? They gain the paladin's bonus to damage, period, so yes.


Excellent. Thank you.


Welp! Finally played him for the first time. It went amazingly.

I think it was mostly luck for this part, but nothing was able to hit me, I was able to subdue basically everything without worry. My damage was ridiculous.

Koga Akeida; A True Paladin.

Knocked out a dog that was alerting guards without killing it. Jumped on an opponent's body to attack his team-mate and downed him with one devastating strike. Grappled a gnome taking a child hostage, picked him up, headbutted him unconscious and crammed him into a locker, and locked it to temporarily hold him.

Swore an oath of vengeance to the man that made my childhood a living hell, cut his head off in his exposed state.

Almost got touched by a diseased doom-sayer. Pushed him back in defense. He fell to the ground and bonked his head to a point of being indisposed. Did all this without a single point of HP damage (the entire party did this part of the game flawlessly).

Now our group owns a house being lived in by a bunch of orphans (until we make a proper orphanage) and a fortune teller's ghost. I promised her I'd find her son's body to bury her head next to him (as creepy as that is).

So far, liking this.


Kiinyan wrote:


For example: At 10th level you have 5d6 LoH. With Greater Mercy (which should be taken at 5th level) you get: 6d6. Add in +10 for your favored class (seriously, every FC point gives me one more healed.

How do you add on your Favored Class to your LoH healing?


Twoswords wrote:
Kiinyan wrote:


For example: At 10th level you have 5d6 LoH. With Greater Mercy (which should be taken at 5th level) you get: 6d6. Add in +10 for your favored class (seriously, every FC point gives me one more healed.
How do you add on your Favored Class to your LoH healing?

Halfling gives alternate FC gives +1/2 to heal/damage. Not sure what else there is, maybe they confused the human AFC of +1 energy resistance with that.

Grand Lodge

Twoswords wrote:
Kiinyan wrote:


For example: At 10th level you have 5d6 LoH. With Greater Mercy (which should be taken at 5th level) you get: 6d6. Add in +10 for your favored class (seriously, every FC point gives me one more healed.
How do you add on your Favored Class to your LoH healing?

That was the tiefling alternate paladin favored class bonus.


DarkMidget wrote:

Welp! Finally played him for the first time. It went amazingly.

I think it was mostly luck for this part, but nothing was able to hit me, I was able to subdue basically everything without worry. My damage was ridiculous.

Koga Akeida; A True Paladin.

Knocked out a dog that was alerting guards without killing it. Jumped on an opponent's body to attack his team-mate and downed him with one devastating strike. Grappled a gnome taking a child hostage, picked him up, headbutted him unconscious and crammed him into a locker, and locked it to temporarily hold him.

Swore an oath of vengeance to the man that made my childhood a living hell, cut his head off in his exposed state.

Almost got touched by a diseased doom-sayer. Pushed him back in defense. He fell to the ground and bonked his head to a point of being indisposed. Did all this without a single point of HP damage (the entire party did this part of the game flawlessly).

Now our group owns a house being lived in by a bunch of orphans (until we make a proper orphanage) and a fortune teller's ghost. I promised her I'd find her son's body to bury her head next to him (as creepy as that is).

So far, liking this.

Nice, I'm glad you're having fun with it.


My favorite Paladin build is pretty straightforward.

Use a Reach Weapon, take Combat Reflexes, Bodyguard and In Harm's Way. Now just stand next to squishy people and take the attacks aimed at them. Your party will love you.

If you want to be extra helpful, you can be a Hospitaler and take Quick Channel and Selective Channel so you can burst heal as a move action while you protect your allies.


As a paladin taking the Oath of Vengeance, I actually lose channeling.

Though my character is already made, finalized, and been played so far, so I won't be tinkering with the build any further, I don't think.

Annoyingly though, one of the players suddenly took a trip to Cancun, so we won't be playing for another week or so =_=

Liberty's Edge

Damocles Guile wrote:
he can also serve as the best Tank in the game, able to self-heal as a swift action and use Divine Bond to enchant his armor as well as his weapon.

How do you enchant weapon and armor with Divine Bond...? All I see is that you can enchant weapons.


Coinshot Colton wrote:
Damocles Guile wrote:
he can also serve as the best Tank in the game, able to self-heal as a swift action and use Divine Bond to enchant his armor as well as his weapon.
How do you enchant weapon and armor with Divine Bond...? All I see is that you can enchant weapons.

There's and archetype that lets you do armor instead of weapon, but you cannot do both.

Liberty's Edge

master_marshmallow wrote:
There's and archetype that lets you do armor instead of weapon, but you cannot do both.

Just found Oath Against Fiends, which does allow for both. Thanks!


if only they didnt both change spells--you could be an oathbound paladin (fiends AND vengeance)!

admittedly that would be pretty insane.


AndIMustMask wrote:

if only they didnt both change spells--you could be an oathbound paladin (fiends AND vengeance)!

admittedly that would be pretty insane.

You can be both. The oathbound paladin specifically calls out what to do with 2 oathbound spell list. :)


Ender730 wrote:
AndIMustMask wrote:

if only they didnt both change spells--you could be an oathbound paladin (fiends AND vengeance)!

admittedly that would be pretty insane.

You can be both. The oathbound paladin specifically calls out what to do with 2 oathbound spell list. :)

*looks that up*

...mother of god.

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