Ideas for a Paladin Build, or other good paladin archetype combos / styles?


Advice

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Dragonchess Player wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
never take improved critical EVER
Untrue. As stated, for an archer paladin it's a good investment (instead of spending gold on keen arrows). Also, if this were a paladin with spells instead of a warrior of the holy light, then you would definitely want Improved Critical with either scimitar or falchion because of bless weapon: "In addition, all critical hit rolls against evil foes are automatically successful, so every threat is a critical hit. This last effect does not apply to any weapon that already has a magical effect related to critical hits, such as a keen weapon or a vorpal sword."

again i will restate that not taking improved critical is more beneficial for melee paladins and not archers, as is vengeance in general since you dont care about being mobile and flying around

though, i cant really see it as being that good of a feat investment since most bows dont have a threat range beyond a 20, while im sure that extra 5% could have a case made for it, i cant see it ever being worth that much investment


I'd swap wis and dex, and pick fey founding instead of toughness (just so much better).

Further I'd really consider taking sacred servant - its just so amazing giving you an incredible "mount" with cool SLA's (Cuoatl-mount woooo!)
The Domain is strong like crazy - pick tactics for a free feat you can swap on the fly (2 enemies standing right next to each other? lets get cleave! Shooting a bow? Deadly aim would be nice. Lunge? Improved Grapple? Sunder? Trip? Toughness? Just pick whatever you need whenever you need it! And give your caster Ini-rerolls, get some additional spells and slots aaand and profit from a good (but not incredible) divine bond substitute.

I think its more than worth it, especially combined with OoV.

And yes, actually I'd swap Str and Cha as well.

Oh - and due to that good Int-score: consider unsanctioned knowledge as well!


Oh, suppose that makes sense, especially if I'm mostly adding my charisma to Will saves anyway. Fey Foundling is a cool feat, but I dunno if it fits my character at all. I wasn't really intending on him being a fey, or an orphan lost in the wild.

Sacred Servant is okay, but not my style though. I'm not a huge fan of the Channel Positive Energy, which is why I have no problem ditching it with the Oath of Vengeance. I'm not really a fan of mounts for some reason. They always felt like extra work to me, or felt tedious if we went into dungeons or places that they couldn't go.

That domain is pretty cool, but for some reason the Sacred Servant just doesn't jump out at me too much.

Yeah, Unsanctioned Knowledge is awesome. I'll have to take a look at some good spells for that. Those mentioned above seem worthwhile, but I'll figure a good combo. Paladin seem to be a "What combos well" class.


And thank you for the heads up on those armors! Those work quite well, especially if I change the Dex to be 14 at some point.


If a Tiefling sword and board Paladin had the 1d6 bite attack (Maw or Claw) and used it as part of a full attack with his longsword, would the bite be at Full BAB and Strength Modifier to damage?

Or is it done at -5 BAB and 1/2 Strength Modifier to damage?

Many thanks.


That is a good question... I think it's usually listed in the attack itself, isn't it?


np, i actually love this build, and the holy samurai setting thing really resonates with oath of vengeance to me

unsanctioned knowledge i feel is pretty much a staple for any paladin that isnt in a low point buy system where they cant afford a decent INT, but since you rolled one, its great, my personal picks are what i feel is best for a melee vengeance build, but there are a lot of options, just make sure your options work with what you're doing, since you are using a whole feat to take it, i wouldnt take anything that you wouldnt want to cast every day, every fight if you could

also i think that trait you picked for the campaign has the option to give you a +1 on reflex saves, didnt even realize that until i looked at it, i wouldnt consider that to be a waste since its your worst and one of the most used saves, and its even the same trait

on the toughness front, there are a couple of ways to look at it, mostly paladins can use the favored class skill rank more than the HP since they are supposed to have good HP anyway, Fast Learner lets you get both so it functions somewhat identically to toughness, and you can still take toughness

toughness itself is fantastic if you are actually playing through the first few levels, at lvl 1 you dont even have LoH yet so unless you can somehow come up with 750gp for a wand of CLW (rich parents trait is how ive done it before) you will have no way of healing yourself, so you will rely on your allies, if you are starting out later in levels you can skip it entirely, and just start with Power Attack

and even with all thats been discussed, thats still only 3 feats you're really committing, so you still have plenty you can devote to taking things like extra LoH

as for the mount thing, you gotta dedicate the build to it, or play it like a ranger with an animal companion, even then its not as good as a weapon bond if you're playing a human for the purpose of maneuverability and versatility, playing a gnome of halfling is better for mount builds because their mounts are medium creatures and can usually fit through doors unlike the large war horses that humans usually start out with


Oh, the Unhappy Childhood has 2. Unless I missed something on the updated (Religious) one? XD I'm uncertain. The one I looked at originally gave +2 to concentration checks that my DM changed to Knowledge Religion since Concentration doesn't really exist anymore.

Oh? Fast Learner sounds quite useful, cuz it would be nice to get a skill point and HP every level if possible. Toughness can be taken later, so I wouldn't mind it. Yeah, I'll be playing through the first few levels, but my HP would still be good without toughness until level 3 if need be.

And yeah, I love the weapon bond. It seems versatile in a way as well, so I'd definitely prefer it. Never been a fan of mounts. And yeah, the build would have to be built around it for me to really care more about it. But yeah, as a medium human, the weapon bond seems better.


yeah it has 2 options but a bump to Knowledge Religion isnt bad either, especially since pallys never use concentration

fast learner is an okay replacement for toughness, extra HP at low levels is still really good, but thats mainly if you were gonna pick the skill rank anyway, so its basically the same thing as toughness, you can also take toughness later so you gain even more HP, though it might be overkill

idk how you plan on tackling skills, but i like to max out the social skills, and since im a paladin, i skip perception since detect evil usually works better anyway

i hope to see more about this after you start playing


I kind of wanted to do a few of the more interesting skills. Thinking about intimidate now, but I mostly focused on Diplomacy. The bard of the party apparently had intimidate out the wazoo. Was thinking of taking linguistics and then possibly that feat that lets me use diplomacy or intimidate to cause things to attack me.

Aye. Once I'm fully done writing up this character to a character sheet, I shall post the build, and future thoughts. Then once I actually play it a bit, I'll post some more. Thank you all for the help by the way. Finally got me in gear and working properly on this.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
master_marshmallow wrote:
Dragonchess Player wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
never take improved critical EVER
Untrue. As stated, for an archer paladin it's a good investment (instead of spending gold on keen arrows). Also, if this were a paladin with spells instead of a warrior of the holy light, then you would definitely want Improved Critical with either scimitar or falchion because of bless weapon: "In addition, all critical hit rolls against evil foes are automatically successful, so every threat is a critical hit. This last effect does not apply to any weapon that already has a magical effect related to critical hits, such as a keen weapon or a vorpal sword."

again i will restate that not taking improved critical is more beneficial for melee paladins and not archers, as is vengeance in general since you dont care about being mobile and flying around

though, i cant really see it as being that good of a feat investment since most bows dont have a threat range beyond a 20, while im sure that extra 5% could have a case made for it, i cant see it ever being worth that much investment

1) Archery is already strong in general. Improved Critical with a composite longbow (for 19-20/x3) just makes Smite Evil for paladin archers even more damaging. For most archers, it's not necessarily the best choice; for a paladin, it has great synergy with Smite Evil.

2) For melee, you see no benefit for having about 1/3 of your attacks (not hits, attacks) against evil foes being critical hits (not threats, automatic critical hits)? At the cost of one 1st-level spell, when 1,000 gp 1st-level pearls of power are a cheap way to ensure that the spell can be cast before every fight? You're saying that one feat isn't worth effectively gaining part of the 20th level fighter capstone ability at maximum benefit (against any evil foe, at least) for an entire combat, with a weapon chosen at the time you cast the spell?


DarkMidget wrote:

I kind of wanted to do a few of the more interesting skills. Thinking about intimidate now, but I mostly focused on Diplomacy. The bard of the party apparently had intimidate out the wazoo. Was thinking of taking linguistics and then possibly that feat that lets me use diplomacy or intimidate to cause things to attack me.

Aye. Once I'm fully done writing up this character to a character sheet, I shall post the build, and future thoughts. Then once I actually play it a bit, I'll post some more. Thank you all for the help by the way. Finally got me in gear and working properly on this.

remember you get tongues, so linguistics may not be the best choice in skills

dragonchess guy wrote:

1) Archery is already strong in general. Improved Critical with a composite longbow (for 19-20/x3) just makes Smite Evil for paladin archers even more damaging. For most archers, it's not necessarily the best choice; for a paladin, it has great synergy with Smite Evil.

2) For melee, you see no benefit for having about 1/3 of your attacks (not hits, attacks) against evil foes being critical hits (not threats, automatic critical hits)? At the cost of one 1st-level spell, when 1,000 gp 1st-level pearls of power are a cheap way to ensure that the spell can be cast before every fight? You're saying that one feat isn't worth effectively gaining part of the 20th level fighter capstone ability at maximum benefit (against any evil foe, at least) for an entire combat, with a weapon chosen at the time you cast the spell?

1) again, the 5% bump may not be worth it to archery builds, mainly because they are feat starved as is

2) what are you even getting at here? 1st level spells? what? im talking about the paladin's divine bond that doesnt cost them anything, and at lower levels nabbing a +1 and a +1 ability (keen) is the most optimal choice, and saves you gp on buying a keen weapon, and gives you an extra feat since you dont need to take improved critical

your argument about holy warrior's auto confirmation is solid, and im not gonna argue that, but if you arent doing holy warrior of light, using divine bond to get keen for free is more efficient with resources


Yeah, sounds like it'd be better to use spells to enchant it to +1 or whatnot, then use divine bond to make it keen and have other enchantments. (Or even if I just pay to make it magical, but not keen)

At least if I understand, that's how Divine Bond works?

True, I do get tongues. But I wanted other languages just as a character thing, and in case the spell runs out and I have no more for the day, I don't want a whole feat to go unusable until next I can cast it. Then again, wands. I dunno, will see what skill points I have once I have my priorities down.

On that note, I checked my rolls. I was mistaken. My rolls were:

15, 12, 14, 11, 14, 16. So I was thinking of doing my stats as (With 2 +2 bonuses):

Str 18
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 11
Cha 17

That's still probably the optimal setup if I intend to take unsanctioned knowledge, yes? My dex won't be 14 like I thought it would be, but that's still quite good.

Also, a thought occurred. For some stupid reason, I didn't know that Tian Xia was so huge and had so many different cities and kingdoms. Which one would be closest to a Japanese-style kingdom?

It just seems that Tian-Xia is an Asian-style continent but with many different ethnicities. So just curious if anyone knows.

As an aside, this spell makes me laugh

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/bladed-dash

Makes me think of those samurai anime where they do that simultaneous run at each other, sheathe their weapons, then the other person gets cut. Almost contemplating taking this just because it's cool and cinematic. Not sure if it's worth it though. Can unsanctioned knowledge be taken more than once?


No feat can be taken more than once unless otherwise noted.

I'd be fine with skilled + bonus feat actually and therefore start with 15 Cha. For feat and skill starved builds like Paladin thats just the way I'd go.


For some reason, by the looks of it, it seems like I can do a lot with a small amount of feats. But I do see what you're saying... hm... I dunno. The feat seems worth having the Charisma that high, considering it adds to so many things for me.

Mostly just because I'm not too concerned with feats at the moment. But it's definitely something for me to consider.

Liberty's Edge

Dragonchess Player wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
never take improved critical EVER
Untrue. As stated, for an archer paladin it's a good investment (instead of spending gold on keen arrows). Also, if this were a paladin with spells instead of a warrior of the holy light, then you would definitely want Improved Critical with either scimitar or falchion because of bless weapon: "In addition, all critical hit rolls against evil foes are automatically successful, so every threat is a critical hit. This last effect does not apply to any weapon that already has a magical effect related to critical hits, such as a keen weapon or a vorpal sword."

Exactly. Also, a paladin using any meele weapon that cannot have keen, such as a mace or flail. For that matter, what if you'd rather use Divine Bond to give your weapon Holy or some other property?

Improved Critical is a perfectly good feat to take for any combat oriented class, paladins included.

I kind of wish people would stop making blanket statements like "never do X ever" as if they are the expert and their opinion is somehow more than that - an opinion. This game has a million playstyles and as many variations - you really just can't insist your opinion on a matter is fact. Sorry, but as you can probably tell, this is a pretty big pet peave of mine!


Meta-time! Never tell someone to never do something!

About IC its simple - calculate the difference of DPR/gold ratio of getting the feat or the enchantment and consider whether its worth it for you.


DarkMidget wrote:

Yeah, sounds like it'd be better to use spells to enchant it to +1 or whatnot, then use divine bond to make it keen and have other enchantments. (Or even if I just pay to make it magical, but not keen)

At least if I understand, that's how Divine Bond works?

True, I do get tongues. But I wanted other languages just as a character thing, and in case the spell runs out and I have no more for the day, I don't want a whole feat to go unusable until next I can cast it. Then again, wands. I dunno, will see what skill points I have once I have my priorities down.

On that note, I checked my rolls. I was mistaken. My rolls were:

15, 12, 14, 11, 14, 16. So I was thinking of doing my stats as (With 2 +2 bonuses):

Str 18
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 11
Cha 17

That's still probably the optimal setup if I intend to take unsanctioned knowledge, yes? My dex won't be 14 like I thought it would be, but that's still quite good.

Also, a thought occurred. For some stupid reason, I didn't know that Tian Xia was so huge and had so many different cities and kingdoms. Which one would be closest to a Japanese-style kingdom?

It just seems that Tian-Xia is an Asian-style continent but with many different ethnicities. So just curious if anyone knows.

As an aside, this spell makes me laugh

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/bladed-dash

Makes me think of those samurai anime where they do that simultaneous run at each other, sheathe their weapons, then the other person gets cut. Almost contemplating taking this just because it's cool and cinematic. Not sure if it's worth it though. Can unsanctioned knowledge be taken more than once?

you could but the 12 into INT, the 14 into DEX, and bump INT at lvl 4 to 13 so you are eligible for it at lvl 5, which is the soonest you could take it anyway

you lose out on a skill rank, and wont be eligible for fast learner, but its mechanically sound and gets you better AC


Oh, that's true. Though I do like the idea of getting +2 languages and more skills. Int seems useful at a higher number earlier on.

Oh right, back to my previous question. Anyone know of what part of Tien Xia a more Japanese-esque character would come from? Would that be Minkai?


what skills does your team want you to have? and how important is that +1HP from favored class
also i know not much about tien xia


Actually the other day, I was thinking about feats. Fast learner is +1 HP/Skill Point per level. Whereas me just putting the favored class thing into skill points and taking toughness is almost the EXACT same. Except I'd get +3 HP now instead of just 1.

Well, as far as skills go, I kinda wanted intimidate as well as diplomacy. Also wanted Knowledge Religion, Heal... oh, I like Linguistics because it kind of makes sense in a way and allows for further uses of both diplomacy and intimidate without me needing to cast tongues first.


DarkMidget wrote:

Actually the other day, I was thinking about feats. Fast learner is +1 HP/Skill Point per level. Whereas me just putting the favored class thing into skill points and taking toughness is almost the EXACT same. Except I'd get +3 HP now instead of just 1.

Well, as far as skills go, I kinda wanted intimidate as well as diplomacy. Also wanted Knowledge Religion, Heal... oh, I like Linguistics because it kind of makes sense in a way and allows for further uses of both diplomacy and intimidate without me needing to cast tongues first.

not to sound too much like a power gamer, but tongues can be made permanent

in addition, bards get it as a lvl 2 spell, so didnt you say there was a bard in the party?

not that i wanna take away the idea of linguistics as a skill, but you really dont have the points to play with

and yes, if you plan on taking the skill ranks anyway, then fast learner is the same as toughness, but better at lvl 1 since its unclear whether or not the skills can be gained retroactively

and you can still take toughness later which is the best part, if you need a feat at lvl 19 or something

personally, when i play paladins, i go for diplomacy, intimidate, and Knowledge(religion) as my main skills too, i personally am notorious for never rolling good on perception, and even when i do the GM has an impossibly high DC so i still dont make the check
detect evil has saved my ass more than once as a replacement for perception

i also like spellcraft as a skill, but i like crafting
sense motive isnt bad, i guess if you really want to do linguistics and are willing to use a feat to get the extra skill ranks to do it you can, its your character, but as someone being asked to give advice i would have to tell you its not optimal, its kind of my obligation

if you like it, then go for it, myself, i like power attack at lvl 1, my HP is low and things need ass kickings before i get mine, and you cant beat that extra 3 damage at lvl 1, it completely cancels out an enemy taking toughness


That is true. Perhaps... Maybe I should START by taking Power Attack, and then later, probably level 3, take toughness? That will kind of add up and make me slightly more stable.

I think Linguistics is only on my list of to-takes because I actually have something of a slightly excess of skills. Well, not that great, but an amount of noticeable number. I already took all the essential ones though. Diplomacy, Heal, Knowledge Religion, etc.


are you playing at lvl 1?


Think so. Curse of the Crimson Throne starts us at level 1 and we're starting a new game from the beginning.

Liberty's Edge

master_marshmallow wrote:
never take improved critical EVER

Also, with the relatively short duration and limited number of uses per day Paladins can't walk around all day with Divine Bond on. Often they get caught in a fight and burning a standard action just to activate keen is not a great choice. I still recommend Improved Crit for melee pallies for this reason.


I think it'll all boil down to how I want to end up getting the improved critical threat range, I guess.

Keen with gold, improved crit with a feat, or just using the keen ability with divine bond. I'd probably take the feat a bit later on anyway, so in the end, it just comes down to what I feel like doing later on, I'd say.


The_Hanged_Man wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
never take improved critical EVER
Also, with the relatively short duration and limited number of uses per day Paladins can't walk around all day with Divine Bond on. Often they get caught in a fight and burning a standard action just to activate keen is not a great choice. I still recommend Improved Crit for melee pallies for this reason.

why do all paladin players seem to think they need to smite and crit everything that moves, lets just forget that using a 2HW with power attack and an 18 STR yields dice damage + 9 per hit at lvl 1

average damage on a nodachi is 14.5 damage per hit, once he gets divine bond it'll be dice damage + 12 per hit, assuming he doesnt yet have a belt of STR

by the time he can even take improved critical, he's gonna be doing dice + 15 per hit, and thats assuming he doesnt buff at all, he gets access to bull's strength and divine favor

so buffed damage just from those is dice damage +20 per hit

and he gets 2 attacks per round by then....

by lvl 10 he gets access to blessing of ferver, and by lvl 11 he will have 4 attacks per round under it

even if he doesnt divine bond he's still got massive DPR going around for the cronies, its not like every fight ever is a BBEG, and using divine bond when it counts to get keen seems a lot more economical and efficient with resources than trying to constantly crit and smite every little guy with a slight attitude problem


Those number crunches make me excited to see how easily this character is going to be able to turn things into paste. I'll probably finish up the characters main decisions and number crunches tomorrow at work if I get the chance to.


Usually you cant buff up rd/lvl and 1min/lvl spells before most fights. Math says that Greatsword does more damage than a nodachi until you do about +30 per hit.
Divine Bond sucks as you need a standard action to activate it. Thats why sacred servant is such an amazing archtye. Gives you mount for free with lots of SLAs (incredible strong), gives you a domain with domain spells and powers (growth, tactics).
If you want a Nodachi, yes I'd pick some way to improve your crit-range, how to achieve that depends on your build. IC is actually not the worst choice as you actually trade the feat for +1 attack and damage - not too bad.


nodachi has the best threat range, and a higher damage die than the falchion

greatsword has higher damage die, but lower threat range
we just had a thread that went over the numbers and GS was actually lower on the list due to it having lower threat ranges

even so, its still a good weapon, but he's picking nodachi for RP purposes

if your party wizard does his job, you should have a couple extra turns at the start of each encounter anyway for buffs and divine bond

and keen bond is free, extra free if your caster casts GMW on you first


I'd agree on the greatsword thing, but I'm under the impression with my non-official number crunching that eventually, the AVERAGE damage a nodachi does surpasses that of a greatsword because I'll be criticalling a lot more with it. At least more often as far as I can tell.

I dunno. I have no issues with using a standard action. I know it kinda sucks, but I REALLY don't like mounts. So a free mount to me is a free "something I don't care for". Not that I'm badmouthing them, they definitely have their place and some people can use them to severe effect. I can't, however. I'm no good with them and don't like dealing with them in general. The domain powers are weakened from that of a cleric, so I don't really care for that too much either.

Yeah, RP purposes as well as the fairly good crit range both contribute to my reasoning on the nodachi. I like it as a weapon, it's fairly interesting, and fits my Tieni paladin RP idea.


Okay! Finally typed up what I could of my character. Traits, since changing from Sarenrae, have been a little tricky, but... yeah.

Anyway, without further ado, here is kind of what I've got so far:

Abrid Gideon Athlyn (A.K.A. Koga Akeida)
Lawful Good
Tian (Tian-Min) Human, 22 Years Old, 6’5”, 215 lbs
White hair, blue eyes
Level 1 Oathsworn [Oath of Vengeance] Paladin of Iomedae
[Favored Class: Paladin]

Str 18
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 11
Cha 17

Hit Points: 12

Racial Traits:
Dual Talent (+2 to two ability scores [Strength/Charisma])
Size: Medium
Base Speed: 30 ft.
Languages: Common, Minkaian

Class Skills: Craft, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Heal, Knowledge (Nobility), Knowledge (Religion), Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, Spellcraft

Skill Ranks Per Level: 2 + (1 Int) + 1 Favored Class
1 Rank Each: Diplomacy, Heal, Knowledge (Religion), and Linguistics or Sense Motive

Base Attack Bonus: +1
Fort: +2 (4 total)
Ref: +0 (2 total)
Will: +2 (2 total)

Initiative: +2

Class Abilities:

Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Smite Evil 1/day

Proficiencies: Simple/Martial Weapons, All Armor, Shields (Not Tower)

Feats: (1st) Power Attack
Traits:
(Campaign) - Unhappy Childhood (Religious) [+2 to knowledge religion, house ruled]
(Religion) – Ambassador [+2 to diplomacy] or Divine Warrior [+1 melee damage when using spell that targets weapons]
(Faith) – Caretaker [+1 to Heal checks, heal always class skill]

175 GP – Gear = 2gp remaining.

Weapon:

Nodachi – 1d10 Damage, 18-20/x2 Critical Threat Range, 8lbs, Slashing or Piercing.
Special Ability: Brace

Armor:

Scale Mail - +5 AC, +3 Max Dex, -4 AC Penalty, 25% spell failure
20ft. movement, 30 lbs.

Other Equipment and Gear:

Healer’s Kit – +2 to Heal Checks. 10 Uses. 1 lb.
Paladin’s Kit – Backpack, bedroll, belt pouch, cheap holy text, flint and steel, iron pot, mess kit, rope, soap, torches (10), trail rations (5 days), waterskin, wooden holy symbol. 30 lbs.
Explorer’s Outfit (Tian-Min styled) – Boots, breeches, belt, shirt, gloves (or sturdy wrappings), a cloak.
Tattoo -

Gold Calculations:
Nodachi – 60gp
Scale Mail – 50gp
Healer’s Kit – 50gp
Paladin’s Kit – 11gp
Explorer’s Outfit – Starting clothes, free.
Tattoo – 2gp. Fairly high quality tattoos of the minkan words for honor, and justice on his back.

Ability Point Disbursement:

4th – Intelligence to 13
8th – Charisma to 18
12th and 16th – Strength to 19 and then 20

Feat Ideas:

1st – Power Attack
3rd – Toughness
5th – Unsanctioned Knowledge
7th – Extra Lay On Hands
9th – Greater Mercy
11th – Radiant Charge
13th – Extra Lay On Hands
15th – Reward of Life or Reward of Grace, perhaps
17th - ????


If it doesn't have to be a human you can use this guy:

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pkpq?Poor-mans-Hound-Archon#1


DarkMidget wrote:

Okay! Finally typed up what I could of my character. Traits, since changing from Sarenrae, have been a little tricky, but... yeah.

Anyway, without further ado, here is kind of what I've got so far:

Abrid Gideon Athlyn (A.K.A. Koga Akeida)
Lawful Good
Tian (Tian-Min) Human, 22 Years Old, 6’5”, 215 lbs
White hair, blue eyes
Level 1 Oathsworn [Oath of Vengeance] Paladin of Iomedae
[Favored Class: Paladin]

Str 18
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 11
Cha 17

Hit Points: 12

Racial Traits:
Dual Talent (+2 to two ability scores [Strength/Charisma])
Size: Medium
Base Speed: 30 ft.
Languages: Common, Minkaian

Class Skills: Craft, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Heal, Knowledge (Nobility), Knowledge (Religion), Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, Spellcraft

Skill Ranks Per Level: 2 + (1 Int) + 1 Favored Class
1 Rank Each: Diplomacy, Heal, Knowledge (Religion), and Linguistics or Sense Motive

Base Attack Bonus: +1
Fort: +2 (4 total)
Ref: +0 (2 total)
Will: +2 (2 total)

Initiative: +2

Class Abilities:

Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Smite Evil 1/day

Proficiencies: Simple/Martial Weapons, All Armor, Shields (Not Tower)

Feats: (1st) Power Attack
Traits:
(Campaign) - Unhappy Childhood (Religious) [+2 to knowledge religion, house ruled]
(Religion) – Ambassador [+2 to diplomacy] or Divine Warrior [+1 melee damage when using spell that targets weapons]
(Faith) – Caretaker [+1 to Heal checks, heal always class skill]

175 GP – Gear = 2gp remaining.

Weapon:

Nodachi – 1d10 Damage, 18-20/x2 Critical Threat Range, 8lbs, Slashing or Piercing.
Special Ability: Brace

Armor:

Scale Mail - +5 AC, +3 Max Dex, -4 AC Penalty, 25% spell failure
20ft. movement, 30 lbs.

Other Equipment and Gear:

Healer’s Kit – +2 to Heal Checks. 10 Uses. 1 lb.
Paladin’s Kit – Backpack, bedroll, belt pouch, cheap holy text, flint and steel, iron pot, mess kit, rope, soap, torches (10), trail rations (5 days), waterskin, wooden holy symbol. 30 lbs.
Explorer’s Outfit (Tian-Min styled) – Boots,...

looks solid, as far as feats go i would pass on radiant charge since you are so reliant on you LoH uses and you have to dump all of them on a radiant charge attack


Oh? I was contemplating Radiant Charge for a kind of end of the day or last ditch finisher move type thing. It does suck you have to use ALL of them though. Would be nice if they had a variant where you can pick how many you use up, as opposed to not being able to use it early in the day without wasting them all.

Other things I'm still unsure on is: If I want to use Sense Motive or Linguistics. I do really like linguistics, but if need be, sense motive isn't a bad idea. Though my wisdom is very meh.

And I guess my last concern is traits. Since I am no longer praising Sarenrae, I dunno if I can take the Ambassador trait or not..


thing about LoH is you will want them to top off your own HP and the HP of others to save some slack from the healer
extra LoH is important for a vengeance build
greater mercy will increase the amount you heal


That is true. Should I replace Radiant Charge with another Extra Lay On Hands? Also, any other feats I should be looking in to?


depends really on what your character wants to do, if you are looking for more combat related things furious focus becomes solid after level 13 since it nets a +4 to your primary attack, which is the one you will be making most often, so getting more + to hit is always good, imo you can never have enough 'to hit'

word of healing lets you use your LoH at a distance, though you only heal half dice, but you still get the full mercy effect (its really good for antipaladins)

ive already made a case for antagonize for something that incorporates RP into the combat scenario

strike back is a really solid lvl 11 feat, free attacks are always nice

more Extra Lay on Hands is also a solid choice

there are some 'suboptimal' paladin only feats that are great for flavor and really great for niche situations

dragonbane aura- really good for wyrm oaths because they bump your saves against the same dragon breath weapons you get evasion for by whatever your aura of courage bonus is

fearless aura- immunity to fear for anyone in your aura, which im pretty sure also gets expanded

adept champion- if you value combat maneuvers (not really because of the weapon you chose) you can use your smite bonus on combat maneuvers

critical focus is never a bad call and gives you access to the higher level critical feats at later levels after your characters base idea should be panned out

if you wanna invest into it, you can pick up deadly aim and start using a crossbow as a ranged option, and pick up point blank shot

so you have a lot of options


Furious Focus does look pretty awesome. I wonder if I should take Cleave at some point...

So, I rearranged some feats and took one less Extra Lay On Hands. Here's what I kind of changed it to:

1st – Power Attack
3rd – Toughness
5th – Unsanctioned Knowledge
7th – Extra Lay On Hands
9th – Critical Focus
11th – Greater Mercy
13th – Furious Focus
15th – Blinding Critical
17th – Stunning Critical

I only go as far as 17th level because I think that's where the adventure ends for this one.


cleave isnt as good as it was in 3.5, you have to tactically position yourself and you need cleaving finish to do what you did in 3.5


Huh. I never really looked at Cleave in PF. It is actually worse than 3.5 (Or at least not as good as it was. I liked the old style).

How does the rest of that feat order look? Considering how much I'll be critting later on, it seems like an interesting way to go about it. I'll be critting a lot, confirming more often than not (I'd hope), and either blinding or stunning enemies. Seems pretty solid.


I suppose I should also pre-plan my Unsanctioned Knowledge spells.

Was contemplating something along the lines of:

1st - Expeditious Retreat
2nd - Bladed Dash or Gallant Inspiration or Death Knell
3rd - Haste
4th - Shout

Not sure about Shout, to be honest, but it's kind of an interesting thought. Warcry-like.


DarkMidget wrote:

I suppose I should also pre-plan my Unsanctioned Knowledge spells.

Was contemplating something along the lines of:

1st - Expeditious Retreat
2nd - Bladed Dash or Gallant Inspiration or Death Knell
3rd - Haste
4th - Shout

Not sure about Shout, to be honest, but it's kind of an interesting thought. Warcry-like.

tbh, oath of vengeance's "Blessing of Fervor" is better than haste, even if it has a lower duration

you can skip Haste all together since you get blessing, for your 3rd level spell i would vote Displacement, since its the absolute best defensive spell you have access to

your level 4 spell should pretty much always be divine power, since it dwarfs divine favor and the only downside is that you have to cast it

the lvl 1 slot is always the hardest to pick

your lvl 2 spell has the most options imo, since you arent wyrm oath, i like bear's endurance for the extra HP, and a solid buff/heal spell
it also saves you money on needing a belt of CON/STR, Blur is a replacement for Displacement, that is not as good but you do have access to it earlier

blasting spells like shout i would avoid since you arent a primary caster and you dont really get enough spells per day to do much with them, plus you take a -3 to your CL preventing you from doing much damage, your best spells are the buffs that save your wizards and clerics turns and spells so the entire party can get buffed

Liberty's Edge

DarkMidget wrote:

Furious Focus does look pretty awesome. I wonder if I should take Cleave at some point...

So, I rearranged some feats and took one less Extra Lay On Hands. Here's what I kind of changed it to:

1st – Power Attack
3rd – Toughness
5th – Unsanctioned Knowledge
7th – Extra Lay On Hands
9th – Critical Focus
11th – Greater Mercy
13th – Furious Focus
15th – Blinding Critical
17th – Stunning Critical

I only go as far as 17th level because I think that's where the adventure ends for this one.

Looks good. If you are investing heavily into critical feats I would make sure I either had the Improved Critical feat or Keen enchanted on the weapon. Personally, I would not want to rely on Divine Bond for reasons stated above.

Edit: Also, I think you need Staggering Critical as a pre-req for Stunning Critical.


Blessing of Fervor IS good. I forgot about that.

1st - Expeditious Retreat would just help me move a lot faster than 20ft/round. Though later spells replace this, it seems.

2nd - Will figure this one out. Gallant Inspiration and Bladed Dash look awesome and fun for the hells of it

3rd - Displacement

4th - Divine Power

And yeah, crap, didn't notice the Stunning Critical requirement of Staggering Critical... I like the idea of Blinding Critical. What would people think about those, if given a choice?


Haven't posted in a while, but did a bit of tweaking, fixing spells, feats, etc. I had a quick thought. Does your caster level only include levels in a class that give +1 caster level? Like, for example, when a paladin finally gets spells, do they count as caster level 1? If so, perhaps I should contemplate taking Magical Knack as a trait instead of Caretaker, because then I wouldn't suck so bad at the spells I actually can cast. This only applies if you caster level only includes the ones that give +1 spellcasting, as opposed to just a class that can cast.

Any final thoughts?

Abrid Gideon Athlyn (A.K.A. Koga Akeida)
Lawful Good
Tian (Tian-Min) Human, 22 Years Old, 6’5”, 215 lbs
White hair, blue eyes
Level 1 Oathsworn [Oath of Vengeance] Paladin of Iomedae
[Favored Class: Paladin]

Str 18
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 11
Cha 17

Hit Points: 12

Racial Traits:
Dual Talent (+2 to two ability scores [Strength/Charisma])
Size: Medium
Base Speed: 30 ft.
Languages: Common, Minkaian

Class Skills: Craft, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Heal, Knowledge (Nobility), Knowledge (Religion), Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, Spellcraft

Skill Ranks Per Level: 2 + (1 Int) + 1 Favored Class
1 Rank Each: Diplomacy, Heal, Knowledge (Religion), and Linguistics

Base Attack Bonus: +1
Fort: +2 (4 total)
Ref: +0 (2 total)
Will: +2 (2 total)

Initiative: +2

Class Abilities:

Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Smite Evil 1/day

Proficiencies: Simple/Martial Weapons, All Armor, Shields (Not Tower)

Feats: (1st) Power Attack
Traits:
(Campaign) - Unhappy Childhood (Religious) [+2 to knowledge religion, house ruled]
(Religion) – Ambassador [+2 to diplomacy] or Divine Warrior [+1 melee damage when using spell that targets weapons] or (Magical) – Magical Knack [+2 Caster level]
(Faith) – Caretaker [+1 to Heal checks, heal always class skill]

175 GP – Gear = 2gp remaining.

Weapon:

Nodachi – 1d10 Damage, 18-20/x2 Critical Threat Range, 8lbs, Slashing or Piercing.
Special Ability: Brace

Armor:

Scale Mail - +5 AC, +3 Max Dex, -4 AC Penalty, 25% spell failure
20ft. movement, 30 lbs.

Other Equipment and Gear:

Healer’s Kit – +2 to Heal Checks. 10 Uses. 1 lb.
Paladin’s Kit – Backpack, bedroll, belt pouch, cheap holy text, flint and steel, iron pot, mess kit, rope, soap, torches (10), trail rations (5 days), waterskin, wooden holy symbol. 30 lbs.
Explorer’s Outfit (Tian-Min styled) – Boots, breeches, belt, shirt, gloves (or sturdy wrappings), a cloak.
Tattoo - Fairly high quality tattoo of the Minkai flag on his back in black and green ink.

Gold Calculations:
Nodachi – 60gp
Scale Mail – 50gp
Healer’s Kit – 50gp
Paladin’s Kit – 11gp
Explorer’s Outfit – Starting clothes, free.
Tattoo – 2gp

Ability Point Disbursement:

4th – Intelligence to 13
8th – Charisma to 18
12th and 16th – Strength to 19 and then 20

Feat Ideas:

1st – Power Attack
3rd – Toughness
5th – Unsanctioned Knowledge
7th – Extra Lay On Hands
9th – Critical Focus
11th – Greater Mercy
13th – Furious Focus
15th – Staggering Critical
17th – Stunning Critical

Unsanctioned Knowledge Spell Choices –

1st – Expeditious Retreat
2nd – Gallant Inspiration or Bladed Dash (Unless I find something better)
3rd – Displacement (Possibly something else if I stumble upon it)
4th – Divine Power (Definite)


" Like, for example, when a paladin finally gets spells, do they count as caster level 1?"

Yes, at level 4, Pally's got a caster level of 1.

About thoughness, Extra Lay of Hands > Toughness, more hp/effective health and more versatility (and better with greater mercy).


Babouch wrote:

" Like, for example, when a paladin finally gets spells, do they count as caster level 1?"

Yes, at level 4, Pally's got a caster level of 1.

About toughness, Extra Lay of Hands > Toughness, more hp/effective health and more versatility (and better with greater mercy).

thing is, one could argue that he needs those HP first in case he gets hit so hard that having an extra LoH wont matter

he took both anyway, but another extra loh in its place would have synergy with his oath powers so i can still see this argument made for this case

for 2nd level spells you may want to consider bear's endurance, another boost for HP could be really useful


Hm. Okay, so if my spellcasting gets slightly crippled, caster-level-wise, I should probably take Magical Knack instead of Caretaker. Quite a useful trait, considering it'll make my effective caster level just Paladin level -1. A lot more useful for certain buff spells, so I'm not only getting +2 to attack and damage at like, level 7. And increases the duration of everything. Useful indeed.

Hard to say about the Toughness Vs. Extra Lay On Hands thing. At LATER levels, say even level 10, the +10 HP might be more effective than being able to heal 2-12 extra HP a day. Toughness gets even better by comparison at higher levels. Though it is VERY arguable that with Greater Mercy, as well as my Oath, the lay on hands is a very valuable addition, if not better. Will have to see... I need Critical Focus to go down the Critical feat chain, but I REALLY also like Furious Focus for pure damage output without much lack of to-hit. Though I am unsure if it's necessary or forsake-able.

Bear's Endurance looks useful, but I start to wonder if it's as necessary if I do take toughness and get displacement later, as well as having a hopefully-enchanted o-yoroi armor later to have a quite high AC... A few things that need to be considered I suppose.

At least the character seems to be almost done, in build as well as starting setup.

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