It would be good situationally. You either get a second attack, or you could move 40 feet, attack, and move 40 feet back. I'd prefer that option to being out in the open in some battles.
So boots of haste would be good. Impossible to get in PFS outside of a chronicle sheet, though. :/
After a lot consideration, here are the routes that I figure a player could go and their downsides:
TWF Bludgeoner Sap Master: MORE feat intensive. The DPR is incredible... for anyone vulnerable to non-lethal damage. A one trick pony build.
Vital Striking Bludgeoner Sap Master Scout: Well, it's a mobility build. It has great DPR with non-lethal damage and is okay without it. Ridiculously feat intensive, though. Might actually require some fighter levels just to fit everything in. The flavor is more Rogue/Thug than Ninja.
Improved Feint: Requires Int 13. You get your sneak attack without flanking... but now your locked in place next to a bad guy with nobody helping you. If you're going to do that, just go TWF and pick up Two Weapon Feint.
Ninja/Umbral Sorcerer Hybrid: play as a caster and never get close. Sneak attack from shadows with ray of frost. A cool idea that I'll probably do one of these days, but not what I want to play.
Strength based natural attack build: Probably the most solid DPR option. Lots of attacks. But you'd want a Tengu (maybe a Catfolk?), and I don't have the racial boon. Also a COMPLETELY different concept.
Frankly... I'm just not interested in playing them. The last two probably have the most promise, but I've got my heart set on a mobile fighter. Mobility and the Scout archetype are still pretty strong. I just need to come up with a deeper stable of tricks to get sneak attack.
So any thoughts on how to make the build work well? The concept is a Ninja that can stealth and forward scout, and either flanks or harries enemies from the sides. He'll have a wand of magic missile or ray of frost for distance and touch attacks. He should probably use poisons to debuff, as well as being able to demoralize with intimidate. What other tricks can I give him, and can he get sneak attacks any other way?
Bigdaddyjug, have you made that FAQ post you were talking about? If so can you link it here, if not I am going to build one. I have several other things I want to try to get answered in FAQ anyway.
I still haven't seen anything officially saying you can't use the two together and I don't see why it would be intended that they not be used together. If your home GMs are good with it I would still use that build. And for MI I would tell you to go ahead and ask the PFS guys just to see if they will allow it. It's worth asking.
If Skirmisher and Spring Attack don't work together I would drop the Scout portion, possibly pick up Bandit instead and roll with a slightly different build. Spring Attack can still work and still be just as devastating, you just need to try harder to Spring Attack into Flanking possitions, which is really not that hard. If you are Spring Attacking into Flanking possitions regularly, with the Bandit Archetype, an ECB, and Improved Critical the attack will be even more damaging than it would be as a Scout.
Technically, the Spring Attack + HiPS combo should work too. It works in most home games I've seen, all I've been part of. But not sure if PFS allows Sneak Attack from Stealth... because it's not "strictly" RAW, even though it is RAI and it was answered in rules FAQ way back in 3.5 days. Attacking from Stealth is supposed to grant Sneak Attack, which makes a Shadowdancer or Assassin with Spring Attack really dangerous, but I don't know if a PFS GM would allow it... Part of the reason I don't play PFS. PF has attempted to overhaul the Stealth rules but it proved to be a far larger task than originally believed.
I will take a look at those build ideas tomorrow if I can MI.
BDJ, do you still want to roll with a Scout Spring Attacker build or would you like me to put together a Bandit Spring Attacker build? You could always go back to the TWF build too.
Well Bandit and Ninja won't work together, so it would be a Rogue Bandit. (Basically you'd lose the flavor of a ninja and ki use for better battlefield stuff. It's more of a straight up fighter build.)
I'd be interested to see your take on the Bandit Rogue, but I personally am still interested in the spring attacking Ninja. I guess I'm being stubborn, but at least that tells me that I'm actually interested in the build. ;)
Though for my character's backstory, a Rogue Bandit works just as well. And I can always create a ninja poison user next time...
I... am not entirely sure what I was thinking last night. But you're clearly right.
Guess I shouldn't post after midnight.
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So boots of haste would be good. Impossible to get in PFS outside of a chronicle sheet, though. :/
Not true. Once you accumulate enough fame you may purchase any magic item so long as it's within the gold you're allowed to spend.
I'm surprised this thread is still running and I'm entering a bit late lol. But a spring attacking ninja is not a force to be reckoned with. You will be dealing dismal DPR because you're only making one attack per round and failing to capitalize on the ninja's ki ability for extra attacks. Plus at 10th level, most encounters you should under greater invisibility and full attacking as much as possible.
I know you're probably sold on a DEX build by now, but the reasons for a DEX build don't add up. People advocate you need DEX for armor, but an O-Yoroi or Brestplate wearing ninja will have similar AC at less cost. And you will be pumping out tons of damage. Yes ACP is something to deal with, but by level six or so you can easily overcome this. ALso, turning yourself invisible at low levels grants a +20 stealth bonus while moving.
Sneak Attack is not a reliable source of damage. Sure a pile of d6's seems deadly, but a STR build will do great damage regardless of sneak attack. Now an Agile weapon does help, but a STR build can get his weapon Keen. Coupled with a better Two-Handed power attack, the STR build will deal much better DPR.
Spent far more time today that I should have thinking about this. The strength build suggestion really caused me to do a lot of research and rethink how different builds would contribute in battle.
For one thing, I realized that you could build a ninja style warrior without ever taking a level in ninja. Six levels of Ranger followed by 6 levels of Shadowdancer would serve quite well. Any rogue/shadowdancer build is only going to have 2d6 to 3d6 of sneak attack at best, though.
Also realized that regular use of poison is not a viable tactic for player characters. With the crafting rules as they are, you could spend weeks to months crafting a poison that would disappear the first time you hit anything with it. Also, the cost is prohibitive. Poisons are the most expensive (non-magical) single use items in Pathfinder. An 8th level scroll might be more expensive, but it's also MUCH more effective. So really, poison style characters are only useful as NPC's for single encounters.
(Edit: Plus, I'm trying to build a PFS character. So the points about crafting are moot. Suddenly he has to buy all of his poisons, and the cost raises even higher.)
The reason I go into that is that the it makes me realize that the ninja's 'poison use' class feature is so circumstantial that it's useless.
All of which leads me to ask myself: why am I playing a ninja? It's becoming less and less about the flavor, because other classes can do it better, or the flavorful abilities are mechanically useless. So I decided to concentrate on mechanics combinations that the ninja excels at beyond other classes- sneak attack and invisibility. I've decided to go strength ninja, because it frees up a lot of feats and tricks for other things. This will allow me to make him a master of disguise and hopefully pick up some other useful stuff here or there.
I think the 'dex is king for rogues' idea is based off of TWF. If you're not doing that...
Ironically, it looks a lot like mine stat-wise. Just finished it and came back to post.
Half-Elf Ninja
Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
Faction: Sczarni
STR: 16
DEX: 14
CON: 13
INT: 12
WIS: 10
CHA: 14
Alternate Racial Trait: Ancestral Arms (Elven Curve Blade)
Trait: Elven Reflexes (+2 Initiative)
Trait: Armor Expert (-1 Armor Check Penalty)
1F: Improved Initiative
2T: Invsibility Trick
3F: Power Attack
4T: Weapon Training (Elven Curve Blade)
5F: Extra Ki
6T: Rogue Talent: Sudden Disguise (Combat Trick: Cleave?)
7F: Cleave
Didn't see much point in going farther than level 7. I'll probably have switching the later stuff around in a few levels.
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All of which leads me to ask myself: why am I playing a ninja?
You are correct that poison is totally useless. If the rogue trick swift poisoner made using poison a swift action like the alchemist, then there might be some merit but a move action is far too costly. Plus poison kills things slowly where a power attacking katana works quickly :)
To me a ninja's greatest strengths are his invisibility and extra attacks. The advantage of a STR based ninja is you can go invisible and move behind enemy lines focusing on soft targets like casters or archers. Being a STR ninja you will deal damage without needing sneak attack and have the high AC for if the enemy counter attacks. Your first strike out of invisibility should be a full-attack boosted by ki.
I think the 'dex is king for rogues' idea is based off of TWF. If you're not doing that...
This is true. But even a TWF ninja won't be doing as much damage as a 2HF.
Edit: How does this look?
If you really wanted to optimize you could drop INT to 8 and bump Str to 16 (18 with racial). As a ninja you will be gaining more than enough skill points.
I would also forgo mobility. You should have high enough acrobatics and be invisible most of the time anyways. Personally I don't like Improved Critical feats because I get my 18-20 crit weapon keen asap. Also if you crit something it will likely die or be close to death so I'd rather invest in feats that add damage/attack/utility. Instead pick up extra ki once or twice. Your tricks could be more optimized but the great thing about a STR ninja is you have room to add in fluff feats/tricks.
For tricks I usually pick vanishing trick, weapon training or fast stealth (to eliminate the penalty for moving while invisible effectively giving you +20 stealth), some sort of sneak attack boost, greater vanishing trick, and then see the unseen.
I agree you should stick with the normal human racial bonus but suggest dodge and improved initiative. You will get more use out of Dodge at lower levels and though Iron Will is a great utility feat it should come later. Let the GM's casters have their fun when spells won't kill you right off the bat lol.
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I can't afford to drop int because I need the skill points and 13 Int is required for Fast Learner, which gives more skill points.
Ahh I see. Well your build looks fine then :) If you want more protection a one level dip into fighter will give you heavy armor prof. for an O-Yoroi. It's much less expensive and more effective than mithril breastplate but comes with the speed penalty and ACP.
I like the protection value of the heavier armor, but I'm unwilling to pay the cost. I don't want to put off getting invisibility blade any farther than it already is.
Does anyone have thoughts on cleave? I've never used it before. Is it still worth getting it by level 7 (or possibly 6)?
Also, right now I plan to use my first level gold and PP getting some basics, but what large items should I start saving for? I intend to spend my first four PP on two wands: infernal healing (if allowed in PFS and available, otherwise CLW), and magic missile. I might get a wand of disguise self, since disguise will be one of my things. I figure that I can concentrate the gold on getting basics that I need.
I know I'll want to get a mithril breastplate, as well as a +1 keen elven curve blade. Anything else? And any suggested buying order?
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I've heard Cleave loses its luster the higher you get. I would avoid it. Take Power Attack and Furious Focus, though.
+1 for this. As for magic item order for a STR build: weapon > belt of strength > cloak of protection > armor
It really depends on the gold available. Monitor your fame so when it's available you can immediately purchase a belt of strength or a keen blade. For PFS, I would only invest in the standards such as a keen weapon, belt of str, cloak of protection, magic armor, ring of protection, amulet of protection, and boots of fly (or speed).
A Wands of CLW, Infernal Healing, and Endure Elements are a good use of PP. Other PP should be spent on expendables such as an oil of bless weapon or potion of gaseous form.
A lot has happened since I last posted.
MI: A Ranger can fill several of the roles of a Rogue quite nicely and, in general, makes for a better combatant. You may like that better.
BDJ: STR build may be the way to go for your character, if that is what you are more comfortable playing. I prefer DEX builds myself unless I am specifically building a brute. But I suppose with a Kitana you can have a STR build and not have such a brutish feel.
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Since you guys have more or less lost interest in the DEX builds I will not be following up on any of the last few builds requested unless specifically asked again. If you do want more build ideas from me, or have other quesitons, let me know.
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Kaisc006: You have made some interesting claims about STR vs. DEX builds. I do admit that STR builds can be effective but I wouldn't say they are more effective than a good DEX build. However, I am up to the challenge and feel compelled to defend my DEX builds. So, if you are up for it we could post a few competing builds at 5th, 10th, 15th, or 20th level and conduct PBP duels. I would be interested to see how it turns out. Builds should be Ninja or Rogue based, though I don't particularly have a problem with Multi-classing or PrCing. I will even use a Spring Attacking build as one of my submissions just to see how it stacks up. We can use the wealth by level table or some other standard to determine gear. What do you say?
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So, if you are up for it we could post a few competing builds at 5th, 10th, 15th, or 20th level and conduct PBP duels.
This would take way too long for one, but also a duel isn't the best way to settle a dispute like this. Simply post your 5th, 10th, and 15th level build with the DPR factored and I will do the same. A spring attacking ninja may excel one on one, but pathfinder is not a one on one game. It's similar to playing a sniper who makes one attack per round then stealth. They aren't contributing to the party but have personal survivability. It's why in a different thread I suggested not bringing a sniper to a PFS table because you will be an "empty chair".
As for feats, I'll post my builds probably tomorrow night.
First let me be clear about this build. I did not design it as a DPR cannon for a PFS table. I didn't design it with PFS or a primary combat roll in mind at all. I designed it to fit the OP's original request:
I'm going to play a ninja in an upcoming AP. I need to be able to pull off the roles of skill monkey, party face, and support DPS. I don't need to be a beast in combat, but I need to be able to hold my own. I don't care if it's ranged or melee, TWF or a single weapon. I will add the backstory to make the character uniquely my own.
The build I put together fills all of the OP's requests quite nicely and has a lot of flexability when needed. I want to be clear about that because you are attacking this build's ability to bring DPR to the table. But the OP didn't ask for a DPR monster for a hack and slash game of PFS, he asked for a very multi-talented build who could hold his own as a support combatant. So, that is what was built in this thread.
Because I want to see how the Spring Attack build would work in a DPR competition I will use that same "basic" format, but will be changing quite a few things since your focus seems to be solely on hack and slash DPR output.
This would take way too long for one, but also a duel isn't the best way to settle a dispute like this.
I think it's funny that you feel your STR based powerhouse wouldn't do well in a duel, but that's fine, we can do a DPR submission.
Simply post your 5th, 10th, and 15th level build with the DPR factored and I will do the same.
I don't usually pay attention to DPR threads or debates so I may not have the format the way you are used to seeing it. I also don't generally base a character's sole importance on DPR. I don't particularly care for hack and slash games, and don't care for the kind of gamers it generally comes with, another part of why I don't play PFS. I much prefer home games.
A spring attacking ninja may excel one on one, but pathfinder is not a one on one game.
I am aware that PF is a team effort, that said, it is amazing how often people say that and turn around and complain when a Rogue, or the like, talk about tactics that would help them capitalise on their abilities in battle. For that reason I generally build characters who are perfectly capable of surviving and "excelling" on their own, if they have to. For example, the builds I gave above are capable of that. BUT, they are also capable of incredible battlefield maneuvering. They could spring attack from a neutral possition to strike a foe who is fighting one party member, putting it in a flanked possition for the attack, then move away and end their turn helping another party member flank another foe. They could take the next round to full attack that flanked foe and drop it or they could move on. They could use their invisibilty or greater invisibility to create maneuverability and full attacks with Sneak Attack damage with or without a flanking partner. They can then turn around and fill the skill monkey and party face roles as well.
You are faulting this build for not being able to put out enough DPR with a single attack. But that single attack is not the only form of attack the build is capable of. They just happen to be good at hit and run, survivability as a support combatant if need be. If they find themselves unable to get good tactical support in a combat.
And besides all that, it was a build specific to what the OP was asking for. Which, to my eyes, did not look like a hack and slash DPR race character.
It's similar to playing a sniper who makes one attack per round then stealth. They aren't contributing to the party but have personal survivability. It's why in a different thread I suggested not bringing a sniper to a PFS table because you will be an "empty chair".
I think a sniper with a good STR, a composite STR bow, and who is within his Sneak Attack range would contribute.
As for feats, I'll post my builds probably tomorrow night.
Alright, I will get to work then.
I'm going to play a ninja in an upcoming AP. I need to be able to pull off the roles of skill monkey, party face, and support DPS. I don't need to be a beast in combat, but I need to be able to hold my own. I don't care if it's ranged or melee, TWF or a single weapon. I will add the backstory to make the character uniquely my own.
I would appreciate if you built it out to at least level 12 and include traits, feats, and starting equipment. It's a 20-pt buy and every character starts with 150g (like in PFS). All races are available and the character has to be either good or neutral.
You don't have to tell me which skills to take because other than Diplomacy, Intimidate, Bluff, and Sense Motive, a lot of what I take will be determined by what skills the other party members take.
So far we have a cleric healer, a fighter, and a wizard.
Multiclass, make a ninja/oracle... it's cool, my wife made one that was a blind oracle that focused mainly on throwing Shuriken, At first you're like what? But the sneak attack only works within 30 ft and at later levels, the sight benefits are great for the feel, blindsense? throwing shurikens at someone behind you without turning around to look? awesome.
you can sneak in a tad of healing and some other neat spells and do more with that charisma than just add a bit o Ki.
That mutliclass opens up a ton of class skills and you can grab a mystery that synergizes with ninja, like battle or dark tapestry, or one that furthers your overall concept, like Lore.
I would swa the 12 int and 12 wis. You already get crazy skill points being a rogue. I do not find that extra one more really helps. Although that +1 to will is pretty big. Espcially at lower levels(the more levels you have the more skill points that int gets you). I would honestly even dump Int for Wisom and other stats. You can still be a skills monkey with 6 ranks a level. My rogue builds once they hit level 6 with 7 int have enough ranks to surpass almost all of the skills checks needed for pfs at that level.
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For the OP's intentions, he seems interested in both our suggestions. You can have a skill monkey who is also effective in combat. My argument is that a DEX based spring attacking ninja is not as effective in combat as a STR based 2HF ninja.
Mobility on the battlefield is not an issue for the ninja because he just needs to go invisible or double move and avoid AoO due to high AC and acrobatics. Even with a high ACP from an O-Yoroi, he should be able to succeed on acrobatic checks. Also, past low levels when opponents start gaining multiple attacks per round it is better to let them move to you and attack one then full attack so mobility is not critical. A STR based ninja only needs to be mobile when using invisibility to target soft targets such as casters and archers.
Note for level 5 I used Target AC 22, level 10 Target AC 24. I decided not to post a level 15 build because at that point the system breaks down balance wise anyways and most campaigns (PFS included) do not stretch that far. Plus if it takes 15 levels for a build to work, it’s not a good build (not to mention more math lol).
Bigdaddyjug I've stayed close to your guidlines (wanting high skills and swift learner) but would advise not taking the improvisation feat. You will already excell at 11 skills covering both the thief and party face roles, let the other PC's shine when it comes to knowledges or physical skills :) A one level in fighter will allow armor prof., early access to power attack, and boost your fortitude saves. However if you would still prefer straight ninja, pick up a mithril breast plate. Also the scout archetype is not necessary for a STR build because ideally you'll open up with a full-round attack and rarely move to attack. I only included it to match pace with a spring attacker's single attack.
Str: 18 (+2 race) (+1 level)
Dex: 14
Con: 10
Int: 13
Wis: 10
Cha: 14
HP: 33 (23 ninja, 6 fighter, 4 favored)
AC: 24 (+9 Armor, +2 Dex, +1 Feat, +1 Ring, +1 Amulet)
Touch AC: 14 (+2 Dex, +1 Feat, +1 Ring)
Flat Footed AC: 21 (+9 Armor, +1 Ring, +1 Amulet)
Fort Save: +4 (+3 class, +1 Cloak)
Ref Save: +7 (+4 class, +2 Dex, +1 Cloak)
Will Save: +2 (+1 class, +1 Cloak)
Ki points: 6 (+2 class, +2 Cha, +2 Feat)
Traits: Reactionary, Campaign Trait
Skills (10 per level): Acrobatics, Bluff, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Disguise, Intimidate, Linguistics, Perception, Sense Motive, Stealth
Lvl 1 Ninja (Scout): Dodge, Fast Learner
Lvl 2 Fighter: Power Attack
Lvl 3: Ninja: Ninja Trick (Vanishing Trick), Extra Ki
Lvl 4: Ninja
Lvl 5: Ninja: Ninja Trick (Weapon Training (Katana)), Furious Focus
Gear (10,500gp): Katana +1, O-Yoroi +1, Cloak of Protection +1, Ring of Protection +1, Amulet of Natural Armor +1, 500gp remaining
Single Attack DPR without Sneak Attack: 8.54
Single Attack DPR with 2d6 Sneak Attack: 11.689
Katana: +10 (+4 BAB, +4 STR, +1 ENH, +1 WF)
Damage: 1d8+12 (+6 STR, +6 PA, +1 ENH) with 18-20/x2
Full Attack DPR (using ki) without Sneak Attack: 15.18
Full Attack DPR (using ki) with Sneak Attack: 20.78
Katana: +10/+8(ki) (-2 for PA)
Damage: 1d8+12
Notes: The +20 bonus for invisibility will cancel itself when moving at full speed, however you will still be invisible and have the AC to not worry if an opponent notices your square.
Str: 23 (+2 race, +1 level, +4 Belt)
Dex: 14
Con: 10
Int: 14 (+1 level)
Wis: 10
Cha: 14
HP: 73 (48 ninja, 6 fighter, 9 favored, 10 feat)
AC: 28 (+10 Armor, +2 Dex, +1 Feat, +3 Ring, +2 Amulet)
Touch AC: 16 (+2 Dex, +1 Feat, +3 Ring)
Flat Footed AC: 25 (+10 Armor, +3 Ring, +2 Amulet)
Fort Save: +8 (+5 class, +3 Cloak)
Ref Save: +11 (+6 class, +2 Dex, +3 Cloak)
Will Save: +8 (+3 class, +2 Feat, +3 Cloak)
Ki points: 8 (4 class, 2 Cha, 2 Feat)
Traits: Reactionary, Campaign Trait
Skills (11 per level): Acrobatics, Bluff, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Disguise, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Linguistics, Perception, Sense Motive, Stealth
Lvl 1 Ninja (Scout): Dodge, Fast Learner
Lvl 2 Fighter: Power Attack
Lvl 3: Ninja: Ninja Trick (Vanishing Trick), Extra Ki
Lvl 4: Ninja
Lvl 5: Ninja: Ninja Trick (Weapon Training (Katana)), Furious Focus
Lvl 6: Ninja
Lvl 7: Ninja: Ninja Trick (Fast Stealth), Iron Will
Lvl 8: Ninja
Lvl 9: Ninja: Ninja Trick (Bleeding Attack or Canny Observer), Toughness
Lvl 10: Ninja
Gear (62,000gp): Katana +1 Keen, Shadowed O-Yoroi +2, Cloak of Protection +3, Ring of Protection +3, Amulet of Natural Armor +2, Belt of Str +4, 3750gp remaining
Single Attack DPR without Sneak Attack: 15.21
Single Attack DPR with 5d6 Sneak Attack: 25.71
Katana: +15 (+7 BAB, +6 STR, +1 ENH, +1 WF)
Damage: 1d8+15 (+9 STR, +6 PA, +1 ENH) with 15-20/x2
Full Attack DPR without Sneak Attack: 21.548
Full Attack DPR with 5d6 Sneak Attack: 36.423
Full Attack DPR (using ki) without Sneak Attack: 34.223
Full Attack DPR (using ki) with 5d6 Sneak Attack: 57.848
Katana: +15/+13(ki)/+8 (-2 for PA)
Damage: 1d8+15
Notes: At lvl 7 you now have +20 stealth every time you go invisible due to the shadowed quality on your O-Yoroi canceling out it’s ACP and the Ninja Trick (Fast Stealth).
Conclusions:
Level 5 Build:
Single Attack DPR without Sneak Attack: 8.54
Single Attack DPR with 2d6 Sneak Attack: 11.689
Full Attack DPR (using ki) without Sneak Attack: 15.18
Full Attack DPR (using ki) with Sneak Attack: 20.78
Level 10 Build:
Single Attack DPR without Sneak Attack: 15.21
Single Attack DPR with 5d6 Sneak Attack: 25.71
Full Attack DPR without Sneak Attack: 21.548
Full Attack DPR with 5d6 Sneak Attack: 36.423
Full Attack DPR (using ki) without Sneak Attack: 34.223
Full Attack DPR (using ki) with 5d6 Sneak Attack: 57.848
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Where does the Strong in the Faith trait come from and what does it do?
Oh I thought that was the one that gave a +1 trait bonus to Will Saves. Come to think of it, you may want reactionary and your campaign trait (which sounds awesome) to help with initiative. Also you can't take power attack at level 1 because it requires +1 BAB.
As for one less Charisma, I put it down to help with DPR but by level 4 (putting STR to 18) this stat array will produce similar results:
Str: 17 (+2 race)
Dex: 14
Con: 10
Int: 13
Wis: 10
Cha: 14
I editted the above builds with these new features. Actually the new stat array suffers slightly thru level 4 but is much better in the long run.
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Taking 1 level of fighter is going to cost me 6 skill ranks.
Multi-Classing Pro's/Cons:
Pros:
+1 BAB
Early Access to Power Attack
+3 AC (With O-Yoroi versus Mithril breastplate. Also note you will have very low AC until you have gold for a mithril breastplate and will need the trait Armor Expert or feat medium armor proficiency to not suffer penalties)
+2 Fort Saves
Cons:
7 skill ranks (6 +1 favored)
Slow speed (O-Yoroi versus Mithril breastplate)
Worse stealth (at level 7 negligible)
Slower ninja progression
No right or wrong answer here it just depends on your playstyle and party needs.
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Would it really kill me to put off learning Vanishing Trick until level 4?
It really depends on your playstyle. You won't have good AC until a mithril breastplate (remember to take armor expert so you don't have to take medium armor proficiency), so if you play cautiously and don't plan on moving behind enemy lines to target casters/archers then get power attack.
I'm playing a campaign right now... and I'm playing a cross-class halfling monk ninja... 4 levels of monk is all you need to make the build viable...
Going halfling allowed me to get dex to 18 easily. with weapon finesse and size bonus quickly makes for decent to hit. Monk bonus feats, deflect arrows and dodge are extremely useful at low levels for combat.
Bore Style quickly allows you to compensate for damage lost to sneak dice if you want to go unarmed. also if you take the next stage in boar style progression it allows you to deal each type of damage whenever you want.
Later on taking Unarmed combat mastery makes for continuing unarmed progression. By level 16(4M, 12N) this makes for a D10(S)or 2d6(M) damage unarmed plus 6d6 sneak, 2d6 bleed on 2 hits.
As a halfling I took adaptable luck alternative racial trait and fleet of foot alternative racail trait. Adapatable luck give a +2 bonus on most roles 3 times a day and fleet of foot ups movement speed to 30. with the 4 levels of monk you have movement 40.
For ninja skills I took vanishing trick first, then the climb speed, acrobatics master and forgotten ninja trick. For greater ninja tricks invisible blade then Unarmed combat mastery.
This is where my current build will probably differ from yours... I went vow of poverty to gain access to the extra ki point per level... by level 10 it makes for a ki pool of 20 points easily... by level 12 when you get forgotten trick it gives you enough points to have access to almost any minor ninja trick fairly often. But there is that draw back of almost no stuff... I went for a theme so best just to look at the rest of the things i did with this character and see if any of it helps you with your build.
Other things I added to this build that help is skill focus intimidate and persuasive... Boar Ferocity allows a +2 to intimidate and a free demoralize attempt every time you hit twice in combat. At level 10 +12 to your intimidate check almost always demoralizes them.
Mainly just food for thought for cross classing ideas. Definitely not for everyone though.
Shadowdancer is a good build. But from the point of view of the Ninja class, you are losing your sneak attack. A ninja/shadowdancer is going to have 2d6 to 3d6 (if you wait a level) of sneak attack, and then go into a class that doesn't increase it. So you'll always be at 2d6 to 3d6.
If you want to go Sahdowdancer, the better bet to go Ranger. They have the skills and feat selection to essentially be a power attacking, strength based rogue. No sneak attack, but the strength, good BAB, and extra feats make up for it. From ranger, you can go into shadowdancer and truly profit from the PrC. You get two extra rogue talents (which will really help this particular build) and all the extra nice stuff.
Edit: This assumes you'd want early entry into Shadowdancer. This would mean 5 or 6 levels of Ninja and then Shadowdancer. Or 6 levels of Ranger (for the extra feat and boost to saves) and then Shadowdancer. Now that I reread the above post, I'm not sure that this would apply to someone going Ninja 10/Shadowdancer. Though I'd do Ninja 12 for the BAB and saves.
The advantages a ninja has over this build are ki, invisibility, and sneak attack, and those are advantages best served by continuing the ninja class. You get more ki, improved invisibility, and better sneak attack.
Both builds can sneak around the battlefield and strike from the shadows. The ranger/shadowdancer uses hide in plain sight with the stealth skill. The ninja uses invisibility. The big difference is in the mechanics.
You can always build the ranger/shadowdancer as a backup build while you play the ninja. My recommendation would not be to try to merge them though, as it would result in a weaker build.
I'm still hoping to see Shadowlord's example builds, but I feel bad about the sheer amount of waffling I've done. Once Shadowlord posts, I'm just going to choose a build and stick with it. I think everyone has given lots of awesome advice, and this thread is great research material for a variety of ninja builds... but it's time for me to pick something and stick with it.
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I'm playing a campaign right now... and I'm playing a cross-class halfling monk ninja... 4 levels of monk is all you need to make the build viable...
Going halfling allowed me to get dex to 18 easily. with weapon finesse and size bonus quickly makes for decent to hit. Monk bonus feats, deflect arrows and dodge are extremely useful at low levels for combat.
Bore Style quickly allows you to compensate for damage lost to sneak dice if you want to go unarmed. also if you take the next stage in boar style progression it allows you to deal each type of damage whenever you want.
Later on taking Unarmed combat mastery makes for continuing unarmed progression. By level 16(4M, 12N) this makes for a D10(S)or 2d6(M) damage unarmed plus 6d6 sneak, 2d6 bleed on 2 hits.
As a halfling I took adaptable luck alternative racial trait and fleet of foot alternative racail trait. Adapatable luck give a +2 bonus on most roles 3 times a day and fleet of foot ups movement speed to 30. with the 4 levels of monk you have movement 40.
For ninja skills I took vanishing trick first, then the climb speed, acrobatics master and forgotten ninja trick. For greater ninja tricks invisible blade then Unarmed combat mastery.
This is where my current build will probably differ from yours... I went vow of poverty to gain access to the extra ki point per level... by level 10 it makes for a ki pool of 20 points easily... by level 12 when you get forgotten trick it gives you enough points to have access to almost any minor ninja trick fairly often. But there is that draw back of almost no stuff... I went for a theme so best just to look at the rest of the things i did with this character and see if any of it helps you with your build.
Other things I added to this build that help is skill focus intimidate and persuasive... Boar Ferocity allows a +2 to intimidate and a free demoralize attempt every time you hit twice in combat. At level 10 +12 to your intimidate check almost always demoralizes them.
Mainly...
Did you take like.. every Vow.. because Vow of poverty is a terrible thing
I want to begin by saying I don't know how to calculate DPR. Instead I have posted my average damage output for a successful attack. If you want to turn that into DPR you may, or if you provide me with the means to do it, and explain how it's done, I will. Now that this build is finished I am going to work on another one that I would like to compare.
Class: Ninja (Take the Scout archetype)
Traits:
1. Reactionary
2. Merchant Family
Favored Class Bonus: HP until you get fast learner then HP and Skill Point.
Stats:
1. STR: 14
2. DEX: 18 (+2 Human racial bonus = 20) (+1 Level = 21)
3. CON: 10
4. INT: 13
5. WIS: 10
6. CHA: 12
Initiative: +7
Attack Bonus: +9 (3 BAB, 5 Dex, +1 ENH)
HP: (Random - based on die rolls)
AC: 23 (5 Armor, 5 Dex, 1 Feat, 1 Ring, 1 Amulet)
Touch AC: 17 (5 Dex, 1 Feat, 1 Ring)
Flatfooted AC: 17 (5 Armor, 1 Ring, 1 Amulet)
Fort: +2 (1 class, 1 cloak)
Ref: +10 (4 class, 5 Dex, 1 cloak)
Will: +2 (1 class, 1 cloak)
Ki: 3 (2 class, 1 Cha)
Skill pts/lvl: 10 (11 after Fast Learner)
Feats/Tricks/Ability Points:
1. Exotic Weapon Proficiency Elven Curveblade*. Weapon Finesse.
2. Trick: Vanishing Trick.
3. Fast Learner*.
4. Ability Point: DEX. Trick: Rogue Talent - Combat Trick: Dodge.
5. Mobility.
*If you want to focus more on skills than on combat, you can switch the order these two feats are taken at.
Gear - 10,500: (+1 Elven Curve Blade, +1 Mithral Chain Shirt, Ring of Protection +1, Cloak of Resistance +1, Amulet of Natural Armor +1) 870gp left over.
Conclusions (I told you before I tend to ignore DPR battles, so I don't know the formula, so I am posting my Average Damage output on a successful strike.):
Single Attack Average Damage Without Sneak Attack: 9 (+5 ECB, +3 Str, +1 ENH) / 18 on Crit (+10 ECB, +6 Str, +2 ENH)
Single Attack Damage With Sneak Attack: 24 (+5 ECB, +3 Str, +1 ENH, +3d6 SA) / 33 on Crit
Elven Curve Blade: +9 (+3 BAB, +5 Dex, +1 ENH)
Damage: 1d10, + 3 STR, +1 ENH, +3d6 SA, with 18-20/x2
Full Attack Average Damage Without Sneak Attack: 18 (Not counting any critical strikes)
Full Attack Average Damage With Sneak Attack: 48 (Not counting any critical strikes)
Tactics will be to get the Initiative, surprise rounds are great but charging a flat footed opponent in the first round of combat is just as good. Of course this is pending Tactics discussions with your party. Don't charge yourself into situations you can't get out of. By lvl 4 you get Sneak Attack damage to every charge attack due to Scout's Charge. So it won't matter if you hold your turn until some other party members have gone to back you up when you charge. By lvl 5 you really don't have to worry about leaving or traveling through opponents threatened squares because your AC become 27. The only time you will want to be more careful is if you are maneuvering around something that has already demonstrated a high hit rate against your party Fighter. Remember you can use acrobatics as well if needed, or vanishing trick. When you charge something and get that Sneak Attack, next round if they haven't moved off you can either full attack them or charge to another opponent and get SA. The object with the charging and Mobility isn't just SA though, you want to charge into a flanking possition so next round you can pull off a full attack spending a point of Ki and get two good attacks with SA and +2 flanking bonus to attacks.
Class: Ninja (Take the Scout archetype)
Traits:
1. Reactionary
2. Merchant Family
Favored Class Bonus: HP until you get fast learner then HP and Skill Point.
Stats:
1. STR: 14 (+2 Belt = 16)
2. DEX: 18 (+2 Human racial bonus = 20) (+2 Level = 22) (+2 Belt = 24)
3. CON: 10
4. INT: 13
5. WIS: 10
6. CHA: 12
Initiative: +9
Attack Bonus: +15 (7 BAB, 7 Dex, +2 ENH) [+1 Haste / -2 PA]
HP: (Random - based on die rolls)
AC: 28 (6 Armor, 7 Dex, 1 Feat, 2 Ring, 2 Amulet) [+1 Haste]
Touch AC: 20 (7 Dex, 1 Feat, 2 Ring)
Flatfooted AC: 20 (6 Armor, 2 Ring, 2 Amulet)
Fort: +6 (3 class, 3 cloak)
Ref: +15 (7 class, 5 Dex, 3 cloak)
Will: +6 (3class, 3 cloak)
Ki: 6 (2 class, 1 Cha)
Skill pts/lvl: 10 (11 after Fast Learner)
Feats/Tricks/Ability Points:
1. Exotic Weapon Proficiency Elven Curveblade*. Weapon Finesse.
2. Trick: Vanishing Trick.
3. Fast Learner*.
4. Ability Point: DEX. Trick: Rogue Talent - Combat Trick: Dodge.
5. Mobility.
6. Trick: Darkvision. (Because as a Human, without levels in Shadowdancer, or the Shadowstrike feat I feel you will need this.)
7. Spring Attack.
8. Ability Point: Dex. Trick: Rogue Talent - Follow the Clues. (If tracking is needed, otherwise trade)
9. Power Attack.
10. Advanced Trick: Invisible Blade.
*If you want to focus more on skills than on combat, you can switch the order these two feats are taken at.
Gear - 62,000: (+1 Keen Elven Curve Blade, +2 Mithral Chain Shirt, Ring of Protection +2, Cloak of Resistance +3, Amulet of Natural Armor +2, Belt of Physical Might +2 Dex and +2 Str, Boots of Speed) 1,370gp left over.
Conclusions (I told you before I tend to ignore DPR battles, so I don't know the formula, I am posting my Average Damage output on a successful strike.):
Single Attack Average Damage Without Sneak Attack: 16 (+5 ECB, +4 Str, +6 PA, +1 ENH) / 26 on Crit (+10 ECB, +8 Str, +6 PA, +2 ENH)
Single Attack Damage With Sneak Attack: 41 (+5 ECB, +4 Str, +6 PA, +2 ENH, +5d6 SA) / 51 on Crit
Elven Curve Blade: +15 (+7 BAB, +7 Dex, +1 ENH) [+1 Haste][-2 PA]
Damage: 1d10, + 4 STR, +6 PA, +1 ENH, +5d6 SA, with 18-20/x2
Full Attack Average Damage Without Sneak Attack: 64 (Not counting any critical strikes)
Full Attack Average Damage With Sneak Attack: 164 (Not counting any critical strikes)
Total Attacks on Full Attack: Itterative attacks +16 / +11, Ki attack +16, Haste attack +16
Tactics will be to get the Initiative, surprise rounds are still great. Spring Attacking a flat footed opponent in the first round of combat is a good starting tactic. In round two, charge any opponent who is already engaged by one of your party members. By lvl 4 you get Sneak Attack damage to every charge attack due to Scout's Charge. By lvl 5 you really don't have to worry about leaving or traveling through opponents threatened squares because your AC become 32. The only time you will want to be more careful is if you are maneuvering around something that has already demonstrated a high hit rate against your party Fighter. Remember you can use acrobatics as well if needed, or vanishing trick. In round three, if the enemy hasn't moved, you and your party member should use 5' steps to get into flanking possition. Now, depending on how tough the opponent is you can use a full attack with 2, 3, or 4 attacks depending on what abilities you activate. All of those attacks get Sneak Attack, and some will likely be criticals. The object with the charging and Mobility isn't just SA though, you want to charge into a flanking possition so next round you can pull off a full attack spending a point of Ki and get three good attacks and/or activating Boots of Speed for four attacks with SA and +2 flanking bonus to attacks. At this point you don't have to charge if you don't want to, any movement more than 10' will give you Sneak Attack damage.
Additional tactics include using Boots of Speed to gain three good attacks on a full attack and keeping Ki points for greater invisibility. While invisible maneuver to within a 5' step of an opponent then take three attacks, or even use another Ki point to get four attacks under greater invisibility.
Spring Attack may be used in a number of ways other than attacking a flat-footed opponent in the first round of combat. It may also be used for excellent battlefield maneuverability. You can spring attack into a flanking possition get a good attack with SA and then end your movement helping a second ally flank against a second opponent. In the following round try to hit that enemy with a full attack. It's not just for hit and run tactics. It is for tactical maneuverability between enemies in the battlefield and for putting you in possition to help an ally get a flanking bonus on his attack.
This build provides a great deal of battlefield flexability in combat. It also satisfies the Skill Monkey role and can satisfy the Face of the Party role. Although it will not satisfy those two roles as expertly as my previous ECB build, it will still get the job done and will be a bit more effective than my previous build in combat.
If you were to take this build beyond lvl 10 there are some things that would really help this build along. Taking Improved Initiative is good, but not crucial. Taking Improved Critical will open up some money and space on your weapon to add Menacing which will be a temendous help for this build. Also consider adding a bursting property to the weapon as you will be getting critical threats fairly often. Critical Focus would not be a waste of a feat if you do decide on a bursting property. Extra Ki would be a good investment although the spell I told you about earlier "Ki Leech" will prevent you from needing it. Also the Advanced Rogue Talents Opportunist* and Unwitting Ally will be great for this build. Combat Reflexes* will also not be a bad feat.
*For Instance, with Spring Attack you could spring to attack one flanked enemy then move away to end your turn flanking another enemy with a different party member. When that party members turn comes around he/she attacks the flanked enemy and you get an AoO against the flanked enemy. That enemy's turn comes around and he tries to move away, you may get another AoO against him depending on how he moves. That's a potential for two additional attacks against a flanked enemy outside your normal turn.
Again, I don't know how to calculate DPR so I just put my average damage in the post. I do feel this build will be a bit lower in DPR at the lvl 5 point. However, I think it will be more even, and with Haste possibly much higher, at the lvl 10 point.
Additionally, now that you have decided not to use Fast Learner that frees up one additional feat which could be used to get Improved Critical in the lvl 5 build which could bring it more on par with the DPR output of the lvl 5 STR build. This would also allow you to reassign 6,000gp in the lvl 10 build.
FIXED SOME NUMBERS I MISS CALCULATED
Does anybody see any glaring problems with my build so far?
I may see one. If I hear you correctly you are talking about using two weapon fighting before you get TWF feat. You have a medium BAB and only a +4 Dex bonus. Do you know what the attack penalties are for TWF without the feat?
If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. When fighting in this way you suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand. If your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light.
If I understand what you are planning, you are not going to be able to hit anything, even flanking, for quite a while.
Look into the Agile enchantment, it adds Dex to damage instead of Str.
I will keep thinking about your other questions on this build and let you know.