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considering that paper cartridges are a sealed paper back with a bullet (or shot) and powder inside, it seems reasonable that one could apply the blanch to the bullet, and then seal it inside the package.
But the caveat to this, would be it would have to be while gunsmithing the ammo in question. If you already have a premade paper cartridge, you aren't going to put the powder over an open flame. That would be idiotic.
And taking apart your cartridge to blanch the bullet, and putting it back together again, probably ruins the paper part of the cartridge, and now all you have is a bullet with blanch and a dose of powder.
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Mike already ruled that you can calculate the cost of alchemical cartridges and ammo not explicitly listed in a table in "the [normal or usual] way". That and the fact that most of his rulings tend towards simplicity and common sense, I think you're overthinking this. If you can find someone to construct an adamantine paper cartridge, you can surely request that they blanch the bullet first. I also agree that the blanch cost is not halved unlike the cartridge itself.
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Speaking of which:
considering that paper cartridges are a sealed paper back with a bullet (or shot) and powder inside, it seems reasonable that one could apply the blanch to the bullet, and then seal it inside the package.
But the caveat to this, would be it would have to be while gunsmithing the ammo in question. If you already have a premade paper cartridge, you aren't going to put the powder over an open flame. That would be idiotic.
And taking apart your cartridge to blanch the bullet, and putting it back together again, probably ruins the paper part of the cartridge, and now all you have is a bullet with blanch and a dose of powder.
Right, but in PFS, we CAN'T make our own alchemical cartridges, meaning we'd need an NPC to do this for us. I see no reason we shouldn't be able to commission the creation of such ammunition, as we're already able to commission the enchantment of weapons and armor.
Nothing in RAW supports your ability to purchase ammo with weapon blanche pre-applied.
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Nothing in RAW supports your ability to purchase ammo with weapon blanche pre-applied.
Well if you want to quote RAW, nothing in the rules says that your alchemical cartridge explodes when subject to fire. There is also nothing in the RAW that says you can't apply ghost salt to an alchemical cartridge. Quite the opposite as an alchemical cartridge is a piece of ammunition and there are rules for applying blanches to ammunition.
Let's not get caught up in finding a way to tell a player he can't do something. There is too much of this in this campaign. People are using common sense to say you can't blanch a cartridge due to our real world understanding about what happens when powder comes into contact with fire. They are also coming up with reasonable ways to get a blanched cartridge without blowing themselves up. I can't see why you're against this. People just want gun ammunition to be treated exactly the same as bows and crossbow bolts, not gain an advantage.
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You can’t use the absence of a rule to support being able to do something. You can only use the absence of a rule to support not being able to do something.
Basically, if it doesn’t explicitly say you can do something, you should assume you can’t.
You can buy bullets and cartridges of various materials.
But sorry, I'm not going to allow you to put your cartridge in an open flame to blanch it.
Common sense only goes so far. At some point you have to actually follow the rules of the game, and the PFS campaign.
In this case, because there is no crafting, and there are no provisions to purchase items that have been treated with a blanch, you can't put blanches on paper cartridges.
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Right now, I believe that we can't use weapon blanches for three reasons.
1. Crafting isn't allowed in PFS, so we can't apply the blanch to the bullet before it gets put into a alchemical cartridge because that would be akin to crafting custom items.
2. The "use common sense" rule which means that if you put something explosive into fire it, well explodes.
3. By RAW Black Powder explodes when exposed to fire, electricity, or misfire. Since an alchemical cartridge contains black powder, by RAW, that means that Alchemical Cartridges go boom when exposed to fire, electricity or misfire.
Obviously point three further enhances the common sense ruling.
Mostly I'm posting because I'm usually the one trying to bring up the lack of ghost salts for alchemical cartridges.
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You can’t use the absence of a rule to support being able to do something. You can only use the absence of a rule to support not being able to do something.
Basically, if it doesn’t explicitly say you can do something, you should assume you can’t.
You can buy bullets and cartridges of various materials.
But sorry, I'm not going to allow you to put your cartridge in an open flame to blanch it.
Common sense only goes so far. At some point you have to actually follow the rules of the game, and the PFS campaign.
In this case, because there is no crafting, and there are no provisions to purchase items that have been treated with a blanch, you can't put blanches on paper cartridges.
I was attempting to refute your RAW argument by stating there are no such RAW. There most certainly is a rule for applying weapon blanches to ammunition. I will restate: Alchemical Cartridges are ammunition. Weapon blanch can be applied to ammunition. Alchemical cartridges can have blanches applied to them. That's as simple as it gets.
What you and the latter poster are doing is making up rules. Don't get me wrong, what you are saying absolutely makes sense in the real world and you will never see me try to do this personally. But there isn't a rule that excludes alchemical cartridges from the rules that govern ammunition and the blanching thereof. If people want to pre-blanch their ammunition so that it makes sense to them from a RL standpoint, that's fine with me.
What it comes down to is, can a PFS GM choose to treat alchemical cartridges differently from every other type of ammunition? Until Mike Brock says you can, or an errata or new book details specific rules for blanches and bullets, I can't see how you can.
P.S. And I hate having to argue this point as removing the ability to use common sense from a GM goes against quite a few rulings I wish I had. But if people are going to use strict interpretations of the rules to prevent things, you're going to have to use strict interpretations of the rules to allow things.
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I'm not making up rules.
Black Powder: Black powder is the key explosive component within a firearm that enables it to function, but in larger amounts this alchemical material can be quite destructive on its own as well. A single dose of black powder is enough to power a single shot from most one-handed and two-handed firearms, while 10 doses are required to fire a cannon. Black powder is often stored and transported in kegs (which hold 100 doses), but in this quantity the powder itself becomes dangerous. Exposure to fire, electricity, or a misfire explosion causes black powder to explode—a single keg that explodes in this manner deals 5d6 points of fire damage to anyone within a 20-foot burst (DC 15 Reflex half). Storing black powder in a powder horn protects the powder from explosion.
and
Alchemical Cartridges: An alchemical cartridge is a prepared bundle of black powder with a bullet or pellets, sometimes with more exotic material added, which is then wrapped in paper or cloth and sealed with beeswax, lard, or tallow. There are many types of alchemical cartridges, the simplest being the [paper cartridge—a simple mix of black powder and either pellets or a bullet. Alchemical cartridges make loading a firearm easier, reducing the time to load a firearm by one step (a full-round action becomes a standard action, a standard action becomes a move action, and a move action becomes a free action), but they tend to be unstable. The misfire value of a weapon firing an alchemical cartridge increases as listed in each entry.
and the weapon blanch rules are
Weapon Blanch: These alchemical powders have a gritty consistency. When poured on a weapon and placed over a hot flame for a full round, they melt and form a temporary coating on the weapon. The blanching gives the weapon the ability to bypass one kind of material-based damage reduction, such as adamantine, cold iron, or silver. The blanching remains effective until the weapon makes a successful attack. Each dose of blanching can coat one weapon or up to 10 pieces of ammunition. Only one kind of weapon blanch can be on a weapon at one time, though a weapon made of one special material (such as adamantine) can have a different material blanch (such as silver), and counts as both materials for the first successful hit.
Emphasis mine.
I didn't make up any rules. While black powder doesn't do any damage when it blows up as a single dose is still explosive and placing it into a hot flame for 6 seconds is going to cause it to pop.
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You can’t use the absence of a rule to support being able to do something. You can only use the absence of a rule to support not being able to do something.
Basically, if it doesn’t explicitly say you can do something, you should assume you can’t.
You can buy bullets and cartridges of various materials.
But sorry, I'm not going to allow you to put your cartridge in an open flame to blanch it.
Common sense only goes so far. At some point you have to actually follow the rules of the game, and the PFS campaign.
In this case, because there is no crafting, and there are no provisions to purchase items that have been treated with a blanch, you can't put blanches on paper cartridges.
I was attempting to refute your RAW argument by stating there are no such RAW. There most certainly is a rule for applying weapon blanches to ammunition. I will restate: Alchemical Cartridges are ammunition. Weapon blanch can be applied to ammunition. Alchemical cartridges can have blanches applied to them. That's as simple as it gets.
What you and the latter poster are doing is making up rules. Don't get me wrong, what you are saying absolutely makes sense in the real world and you will never see me try to do this personally. But there isn't a rule that excludes alchemical cartridges from the rules that govern ammunition and the blanching thereof. If people want to pre-blanch their ammunition so that it makes sense to them from a RL standpoint, that's fine with me.
What it comes down to is, can a PFS GM choose to treat alchemical cartridges differently from every other type of ammunition? Until Mike Brock says you can, or an errata or new book details specific rules for blanches and bullets, I can't see how you can.
P.S. And I hate having to argue this point as removing the ability to use common sense from a GM goes against quite a few rulings I wish I had. But if people are going to use strict interpretations of the rules to prevent things, you're going to have to use...
RAW gun powder explodes when exposed to fire.
RAW blanches require you to bake the item you are blanching over a fire.
I don't see what the argument is.
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You can’t use the absence of a rule to support being able to do something. You can only use the absence of a rule to support not being able to do something.
Basically, if it doesn’t explicitly say you can do something, you should assume you can’t.
Could you provide a link to the source of that rule, please?
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Could you provide a link to the source of that rule, please?You can’t use the absence of a rule to support being able to do something. You can only use the absence of a rule to support not being able to do something.
Basically, if it doesn’t explicitly say you can do something, you should assume you can’t.
I'll show you a link!
Smart alec! ;p
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You've taken three steps to say that an Alchemical Cartridge can't be blanched, when there are two steps to say that an Alchemical Cartridge can be blanched (AC are ammo and ammo can be blanched).
I can't clarify enough that what you are saying makes sense. But if PFS is truly forcing GMs to go by rules as written, you can't make a judgement from three sources of descriptive text, despite how much RL sense it makes.
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Could you provide a link to the source of that rule, please?You can’t use the absence of a rule to support being able to do something. You can only use the absence of a rule to support not being able to do something.
Basically, if it doesn’t explicitly say you can do something, you should assume you can’t.
I'll show you a link!
Smart alec! ;p
I'm serious. It seems to be the core of one of the two opposing philosophies on this board and I'm always wondering where people got the idea.
Also, by its very nature, it needs to be written somewhere to have any sway.
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You've taken three steps to say that an Alchemical Cartridge can't be blanched, when there are two steps to say that an Alchemical Cartridge can be blanched (AC are ammo and ammo can be blanched).
I can't clarify enough that what you are saying makes sense. But if PFS is truly forcing GMs to go by rules as written, you can't make a judgement from three sources of descriptive text, despite how much RL sense it makes.
So which rule do I follow?
The rule that says you can blanch ammo
or
The rule that says powder blows up in fire
Seems to me you follow the following:
1) The more specific of the rules. In this case, the specific type of ammo has a problem with the application of a weapon blanch, therefor that specific type of ammo cannot be blanched, for doing so destroys the ammo.
2) common sense. gun powder explodes in fire.
What you are doing, is following the rule you like better, instead of looking at both rules in the context of the overall game, and determining which rule should take precedence based on how everything works together.
Rules don't always work in a vacuum, especially in the context of a game like this.
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Could you provide a link to the source of that rule, please?You can’t use the absence of a rule to support being able to do something. You can only use the absence of a rule to support not being able to do something.
Basically, if it doesn’t explicitly say you can do something, you should assume you can’t.
I'll show you a link!
Smart alec! ;p
I'm serious. It seems to be the core of one of the two opposing philosophies on this board and I'm always wondering where people got the idea.
Also, by its very nature, it needs to be written somewhere to have any sway.
Its the general rule of tabletop roleplaying that us old geezers who've been playing from the 70's and 80's have been handing down to all the new generations of roleplayers. I believe Gygax said it (or Skip Williams when he was writing Sage Advice for TSR back in the day).
If it doesn't say you can, assume you can't.
Its like a golden rule of limiting cheese at the table.
Is there a specific place in the Pathfinder Book or Guide to Organized Play that says this?
About the closest I can come to is the part that talks about using common sense.
Generally though, you use my statement above, and it will almost 99% of the time steer you correctly to the correct usage of how something works (or is intended to work in the case of ambiguity.)
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Common sense to me is that you can blanch the bullet before it's made into a cartridge, but you've stated you can't because nowhere does it say you can.
That's the genesis of my argument, you saying that you can't do something because it doesn't say you can anywhere. I have just taken that to the extreme because there is a rule saying you can do something silly (like putting an alchemical cartridge over a flame). Therefore you can.
Blanching makes no sense after assembly, because even if you managed to coat the cartridge without setting it off, the part that gets shot out at targets is INSIDE the cartridge, and would not get coated.
But I don't see why we can't buy them pre-blanched, the coating applied by the manufacturer before assembly.
-j
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Blanching makes no sense after assembly, because even if you managed to coat the cartridge without setting it off, the part that gets shot out at targets is INSIDE the cartridge, and would not get coated.
But I don't see why we can't buy them pre-blanched, the coating applied by the manufacturer before assembly.
-j
Depends on the design. [link=http://www.svartkrutt.net/articles/bilder/kulekammer/kulekammer1stor.jpg]Picture link[/link]
Now even if the bullet is exposed, could you do it without blowing yourself up? Probably not, but maybe. Could you wet the cartridge first and let it dry before using? Does it matter for this discussion, where the degree to which we can apply our own common sense is in question?
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Common sense to me is that you can blanch the bullet before it's made into a cartridge, but you've stated you can't because nowhere does it say you can.
While I agree by common sense you should be able to do that, the reason you can't is because you can't craft custom items in PFS. Though I really wish we could.
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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Since PFS does let us make our own ammo, I see no reason why we can't blanch the bullets while we're putting it into the cartridge.
However, until I get a ruling, I'm only blanching my regular ammo. It'll shoot slower, but I won't be blowing up my stove.
edit: Sorry, the text is "Gunsmithing does not grant the ability to craft firearms, ammunition, or black powder. Rather, it allows the purchase of bullets, pellets, black powder, and alchemical cartridges (with 1 rank in Craft [alchemy]) at the listed reduced price"
Purchase at discount does not equal make/craft, so the argument's no good there.
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Well read the "A couple gunslinger ammo questions" thread and be further confused by whether Mike really meant to say "you craft" in his post.
I've read it. In fact I started that thread. If I remember correctly Mr. Brock was rather busy around the time that was posted [I asked him via PM to check out that thread.] so I do believe the use of craft was probably unintentional. Especially since Additional Resources still says you buy the ammo not craft, and that has been updated at least 5 times since that post.
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If a Toothy half-Orc said they wished to weapon-blanch their teeth, I'd certainly allow them, but apply the 10 rounds of fire damage.
One round, not ten.
I so wish they could just edit out the holding over a hot flame part of weapon blanch, it would make it weapon blanches useful for everyone. All they would have to do is to say the full round is waiting for it to harden.
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Its the general rule of tabletop roleplaying that us old geezers who've been playing from the 70's and 80's have been handing down to all the new generations of roleplayers. I believe Gygax said it (or Skip Williams when he was writing Sage Advice for TSR back in the day).
If it doesn't say you can, assume you can't.
Its like a golden rule of limiting cheese at the table.
Is there a specific place in the Pathfinder Book or Guide to Organized Play that says this?
About the closest I can come to is the part that talks about using common sense.
Generally though, you use my statement above, and it will almost 99% of the time steer you correctly to the correct usage of how something works (or is intended to work in the case of ambiguity.)
Okay, so that's your guiding principle. The core of your philosophy.
But it's not a rule. First, because the Great Gygax, God bless 'im, didn't write Pathfinder, and rules from old systems don't automatically carry over. Second, it is not, in my opinion, backed up by the common sense rules.
In the core book, I actually can't find any common sense rules--the phrase "common sense" is only showing up in magic item distribution, the meaning of the Wisdom score, and an admonition on page 402 not to overeat. But I assume you mean "The Most Important Rule," on page 9 ... which doesn't support your rule either, because it ends with this sentence: "Although the Game Master is the final arbiter of the rules, the Pathfinder RPG is a shared experience, and all of the players should contribute their thoughts when the rules are in doubt." That seems to mean the opposite of your proposed rule.
In the Guide, there's the rule that "The leadership of this campaign assumes that you will use common sense in your interpretation of the rules." But that certainly doesn't mean "If there isn't a rule, you can't do it." That means, "Use common sense when looking at things that aren't governed by the printed rules, and everyone will be happy." If they had wanted to say "If there isn't a rule, you can't do it," they could have simply said that.
So it's not a rule. But it is your guiding principle, and that's okay. But you present it as a rule. Plus, I disagree with your guiding principle. I think we're playing a game of imagination, where things aren't in the book because nobody's thought of them yet, and when someone thinks of something new, that's awesome. And it's the entire point of having a live GM instead of a computer program. And it always has been.
Finally--and please know I hate myself for doing this--I have to play the Ayn Rand card.
"We shall go down," we said to International 4-8818.
"It is forbidden," they answered.
We said: "The Council does not know of this hole, so it cannot be forbidden."
And they answered: "Since the Council does not know of this hole, there can be no law permitting to enter it. And everything which is not permitted by law is forbidden."
But we said: "We shall go, none the less."
That sort of philosophy does not work for me.
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@Andrew: Are you talking about the same Gary Gygax who explicitly, in the AD&D GMG put in the preface: "These are guidelines, not rules. You can do things besides what the book says can be done, but your GM will have to make up what happens, and how it happens, on the fly."?
Gygax's take on D&D was that it was not able to handle all situations, and if there was something your players wanted to do not covered by the game, make something appropriate up.
Myself? Although I do have a single Gunslinger PC, among my overly large stable, I would still vote for being able to buy pre-blanched alchemical paper cartridges. To be honest, that would, IMO, lead to having a bit more of a "fun and fair" game, since you would not be penalizing the Gunslinger just because they are a Gunslinger.
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@Andrew: Are you talking about the same Gary Gygax who explicitly, in the AD&D GMG put in the preface: "These are guidelines, not rules. You can do things besides what the book says can be done, but your GM will have to make up what happens, and how it happens, on the fly."?
Gygax's take on D&D was that it was not able to handle all situations, and if there was something your players wanted to do not covered by the game, make something appropriate up.
Myself? Although I do have a single Gunslinger PC, among my overly large stable, I would still vote for being able to buy pre-blanched alchemical paper cartridges. To be honest, that would, IMO, lead to having a bit more of a "fun and fair" game, since you would not be penalizing the Gunslinger just because they are a Gunslinger.
You guys are taking what I said way too literal.
Call it a guiding principle or a good rule of thumb.
“If it doesn’t say you can, assume you can’t.”
In almost 99% of the instances where the rules are clear, but someone who doesn’t know where to find all the rules or has an incomplete understanding of the game (or how the rules fit into the context of the game), and they ask if they can do something… follow the above rule. It can’t steer you wrong.
Anecdote: My wife hadn’t gamed for 20 years before I got her into PFS in July of 2011. She still has moments where she will read a rule literally based on how you might apply it to a real world situation. It took me awhile to figure out why she was misinterpreting obvious rules so wrongly, but once I did, I was able to help her start interpreting the rules based on the game context and how each rule interacts with other rules. She’s much, much better at this now.
Now let me say this strongly: I am not talking about situations that the rules don’t cover, and you want to try something fun, creative and unique in the middle of combat. I’ll come up with something to adjudicate creativity.
The above guiding principle or rule of thumb, is largely for character creation/build rules.
I’ve seen Steven Jackson (G.U.R.P.S.), Skip Williams (TSR, Sage Advice for AD&D), and others say similar things. I may have been wrong about actually seeing a quote from Gygax on that (which is why I parentheticalled Skip Williams who I know said it), but I believe I remember he did say it.
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so, you are only putting the part in the fire that can take the heat? Sort of like just putting the bullet part of the Alchemical Cartridges in the fire?this same arguement would prohibit arrows from blanching - thin wooden sticks and feathers...No, it really wouldn't. One only needs to blanch the metal arrow heads, which can take the heat. If you are somehow hitting your opponents with the fletching, you are doing it wrong.
Except that it requires you to take the "sealed paper" apart, which would break the seal and likely destroy the paper. Thus you'd now just have a bullet and powder.
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The above guiding principle or rule of thumb, is largely for character creation/build rules.
I’ve seen Steven Jackson (G.U.R.P.S.), Skip Williams (TSR, Sage Advice for AD&D), and others say similar things. I may have been wrong about actually seeing a quote from Gygax on that (which is why I parentheticalled Skip Williams who I know said it), but I believe I remember he did say it.
You're sidestepping my point here.
The above guiding principle or rule of thumb is yours. It is not the official rule of Pathfinder RPG in general or PFS specifically.
You base all your answers off it, but it's not a universal truth. It's just your opinion. I don't care if Steve Jackson enters your home every night to whisper it to you as you sleep, it's still not a Pathfinder rule. You should really stop treating it as though it were.
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The above guiding principle or rule of thumb, is largely for character creation/build rules.
I’ve seen Steven Jackson (G.U.R.P.S.), Skip Williams (TSR, Sage Advice for AD&D), and others say similar things. I may have been wrong about actually seeing a quote from Gygax on that (which is why I parentheticalled Skip Williams who I know said it), but I believe I remember he did say it.
You're sidestepping my point here.
The above guiding principle or rule of thumb is yours. It is not the official rule of Pathfinder RPG in general or PFS specifically.
You base all your answers off it, but it's not a universal truth. It's just your opinion. I don't care if Steve Jackson enters your home every night to whisper it to you as you sleep, it's still not a Pathfinder rule. You should really stop treating it as though it were.
Fella, you gotta stop reading things so literally.
I NEVER said it was a PFS rule or a Pathfinder rule. As a matter of fact, you probably won't find this guiding principle or rule of thumb in any gaming rule book anywhere.
But if you use it, and apply it, and its 99% true, then why wouldn't you use it when asking a question about whether you can or can't do something?
Just look at it. What does it say you can do.
In this situation: You can blanch ammunition. Fire causes gun powder to explode. In PFS gunsmithing is just a discount on ammo, rather than actually crafting ammo. Nothing says you can take apart an alchemical cartridge to blanch the bullet inside, and then put it back together again. Assume you can't do it, because it doesn't say you can.
In a home game, I'd allow it, because crafting exists in a home game.
And I expressed that particular rule of thumb as my opinion. So stop trying to chastise me for it only being my opinion. I never expressed otherwise.
I'm just trying to give advice that works for me. If you don't want to take it, then you can continue to ask questions that can be answered by that guiding principle. I will continue to do my best to answer the questions.
Sorry for trying to be helpful.
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Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston
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Can anybody give me a citation, by RAW, that shows that an alchemical paper cartridge, if exposed to fire, will explode?
That may be nitpicky, but so again is saying that the blanch can't be applied to the bullet before being put into the cartridge.
The implication that the cartridge would explode if being placed over an open flame is a common-sense approach. So too is the ability to apply weapon blanch.
