Weapon Blanches and Alchemical cartridges


Pathfinder Society

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Liberty's Edge 5/5

Netopalis wrote:

Can anybody give me a citation, by RAW, that shows that an alchemical paper cartridge, if exposed to fire, will explode?

That may be nitpicky, but so again is saying that the blanch can't be applied to the bullet before being put into the cartridge.

The implication that the cartridge would explode if being placed over an open flame is a common-sense approach. So too is the ability to apply weapon blanch.

There is nothing in RAW that states paper burns. Instead, GM's must apply fire damage as they see fit. It certainly seems reasonable for a cartridge made of paper and full of gunpowder to burn when exposed to flame.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

The quotes are upthread.

Not specifically talking about the alchemical cartridge, but rather gun powder.

Since the cartridge has gun powder in it, then the powder would be exposed to flame and explode.

This isn't just a common sense approach, but RAW.

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Will Johnson wrote:
There is nothing in RAW that states paper burns.
Core Rulebook: Additional Rules: Smashing an Object: Energy Attacks wrote:
For example, fire might do full damage against parchment, cloth, and other objects that burn easily.

Sovereign Court 1/5

Yes, but waxed paper will burn far less readily.

Regardless, there is no good reason to treat paper cartridges differently than other ammunition when it comes to blanching. You can argue in circles about flammability and all of that, but that's using flavor to make rules and we all know you can't do that.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

RtrnofdMax wrote:

Yes, but waxed paper will burn far less readily.

Regardless, there is no good reason to treat paper cartridges differently than other ammunition when it comes to blanching. You can argue in circles about flammability and all of that, but that's using flavor to make rules and we all know you can't do that.

It isn't using flavor to make rules.

Its using the rules as they apply to the item in question.

And yes, there is a good reason to treat paper cartridges differently than other ammunition.

Is the same reason you treat a wood door differently than a metal chain, or a short sword differently than leather armor.

The materials that make up the item are affected by the world and environment differently.

That isn't flavor of fluff. That's how the rules work.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Jiggy wrote:
Will Johnson wrote:
There is nothing in RAW that states paper burns.
Core Rulebook: Additional Rules: Smashing an Object: Energy Attacks wrote:
For example, fire might do full damage against parchment, cloth, and other objects that burn easily.

Well, there ya' go. It certainly seems reasonable to categorize paper cartridges as "other objects that burn easily".

I personally do not think that arguing that you can blanch the cartridge is a good argument at all. Even if it didn't burn, you are only coating the paper wrapper and not the bullet inside at all.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston

Will Johnson wrote:
Netopalis wrote:

Can anybody give me a citation, by RAW, that shows that an alchemical paper cartridge, if exposed to fire, will explode?

That may be nitpicky, but so again is saying that the blanch can't be applied to the bullet before being put into the cartridge.

The implication that the cartridge would explode if being placed over an open flame is a common-sense approach. So too is the ability to apply weapon blanch.

There is nothing in RAW that states paper burns. Instead, GM's must apply fire damage as they see fit. It certainly seems reasonable for a cartridge made of paper and full of gunpowder to burn when exposed to flame.

Ah, but these are alchemical cartridges. We don't know what alchemy goes into it. While yes, it's reasonable to assume that the paper would burn and the black powder would explode, it's also just as reasonable to say that the alchemical process used would render the paper inflammable. Hardly a stretch if we consider the other things alchemists can do.

Regardless, however, if we apply the principle that if it's not in the rules it doesn't happen, then those cartridges don't explode. If we do not accept that principle, then weapon blanch can be applied. Either way, weapon blanch is applicable.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Netopalis wrote:


Regardless, however, if we apply the principle that if it's not in the rules it doesn't happen, then those cartridges don't explode. If we do not accept that principle, then weapon blanch can be applied. Either way, weapon blanch is applicable.

That principle can't apply here.

1) The rules do say that gun powder explodes when exposed to fire.

2) Paper Cartridges have gun powder in them.

3) Precedent is set, that there is an item that protects gun powder from the environment around it. That's a powder horn.

If that isn't enough...

What is the blanch going to do if you apply it to a paper cartridge?

Seep through the paper to the bullet?

I doubt that putting it on the paper is going to do anything, since you aren't shooting someone with the paper.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Anyways, those of you arguing for it, do whatever you want.

Just don't be surprised when better than half the GM's out there won't let you blanch your paper cartridges.

I don't feel the rules are ambiguous on this. Some of you do, apparently. So use the ambiguity knowing full well that you probably won't get to use the blanch at most of the tables you'd play at.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston

Andrew Christian wrote:
Netopalis wrote:


Regardless, however, if we apply the principle that if it's not in the rules it doesn't happen, then those cartridges don't explode. If we do not accept that principle, then weapon blanch can be applied. Either way, weapon blanch is applicable.

That principle can't apply here.

1) The rules do say that gun powder explodes when exposed to fire.

2) Paper Cartridges have gun powder in them.

If that isn't enough...

What is the blanch going to do if you apply it to a paper cartridge?

Seep through the paper to the bullet?

I doubt that putting it on the paper is going to do anything, since you aren't shooting someone with the paper.

1) Humans contain various explosive gasses, but do not explode when burned.

2) We don't know what an alchemical cartridge looks like, but I've always imagined that part of the bullet sticks out the edge, much as a modern day bullet protrudes from a metal casing.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Netopalis wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
Netopalis wrote:


Regardless, however, if we apply the principle that if it's not in the rules it doesn't happen, then those cartridges don't explode. If we do not accept that principle, then weapon blanch can be applied. Either way, weapon blanch is applicable.

That principle can't apply here.

1) The rules do say that gun powder explodes when exposed to fire.

2) Paper Cartridges have gun powder in them.

If that isn't enough...

What is the blanch going to do if you apply it to a paper cartridge?

Seep through the paper to the bullet?

I doubt that putting it on the paper is going to do anything, since you aren't shooting someone with the paper.

1) Humans contain various explosive gasses, but do not explode when burned.

2) We don't know what an alchemical cartridge looks like, but I've always imagined that part of the bullet sticks out the edge, much as a modern day bullet protrudes from a metal casing.

1) That's a really, really, really, really, really silly argument. Seriously. I'm not even going to comment further on that.

2) look at the civil war and muskets. They didn't always have to pour powder, drop a round, and then tamp it and all that.

They actually had paper cartridges where they would use their teeth to rip the end off, and drop a charge of powder and the bullet into the barrel.

Made loading muskets much faster.

I'm not an expert on all of this, but I do know they had paper cartridges.

If you would be referring to a metal cartridge, I'd agree.

But this is paper. The metal bullet is encased inside the paper.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/5 ****

I've pretty much envisioned paper cartridges as something like this. Real world examples make more sense to me than trying to attribute too much to the fantastical.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Munny wrote:
I've pretty much envisioned paper cartridges as something like this. Real world examples make more sense to me than trying to attribute too much to the fantastical.

Yup, that pretty much is how I described them.

Sovereign Court 1/5

Everyone must have missed this link. Paper cartridges can both enclose the bullet, and leave it exposed.

Picture link

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/5 ****

RtrnofdMax wrote:

Everyone must have missed this link. Paper cartridges can both enclose the bullet, and leave it exposed.

Picture link

I still wouldn't want to put those into a fire.

5/5

Andrew Christian wrote:

And I expressed that particular rule of thumb as my opinion. So stop trying to chastise me for it only being my opinion. I never expressed otherwise.

I'm just trying to give advice that works for me. If you don't want to take it, then you can continue to ask...

But you did! In fact, you started your argument by doing so. You said, "[y]ou can’t use the absence of a rule to support being able to do something. You can only use the absence of a rule to support not being able to do something."

This isn't the advice forum; nobody here is asking for advice. This is the forum where we need official answers. Your answer is not official, and is being based off something that isn't written anywhere, but you're presenting it as Truth. It's misleading, and it's an abuse--intentional or otherwise--of the authority implied by your title, which appears on every post you make in this forum.

I'm not trying to score points here, Andrew, I'm asking you to please revisit your posting style, because you're giving people the wrong impression, and I don't think that's where you want to be.

5/5 5/55/55/5

So how does one cook a metal bullet that's right up against gunpowder?

Very. Carefully.

Sovereign Court 1/5

A wizard did it?

Grand Lodge 4/5 Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator

9 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 27 people marked this as a favorite.

I spoke to the design team this morning about this issue. Alchemical cartridges are not meant to have blanch applied to them. I was advised, in a home game, the GM can make whatever call they like. But, for PFS, alchemical cartridges can not receive a blanch.

Sovereign Court 1/5

Thanks for the response, Mike.

The Exchange 5/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Michael Brock wrote:
I spoke to the design team this morning about this issue. Alchemical cartridges are not meant to have blanch applied to them. I was advised, in a home game, the GM can make whatever call they like. But, for PFS, alchemical cartridges can not receive a blanch.

Yeah! thank you for the answer sir! (I really don't care WHAT the answer was, just that the GM provided one.)

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/55/5 **

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
nosig wrote:
just that the GM provided one.

As a GM, I am going with what the Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator said.

On that... Mike has actually been a GM for me once... woot!

And Nosig... ;) for the normal argument on the term there...

Dark Archive 4/5

Thanks for clarifying Mike. Some of these decisions could really go either way, so it's good to not have another thing for people to get mad at each other over.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator

Removed a post that adds nothing to the discussion and only looks to fan the flame wars.

The Exchange 5/5

Dragnmoon wrote:
nosig wrote:
just that the GM provided one.

As a GM, I am going with what the Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator said.

On that... Mike has actually been a GM for me once... woot!

And Nosig... ;) for the normal argument on the term there...

to Dragnmoon:

(and evesdroppers)
I just feel that the GM is the term for who has the final say on things campaign related. A table judge rules just at his table (sometimes in PFS I am a judge). I use the two terms to distinguish the two roles. If someone else takes Mikes place, the new kid is the GM.

I guess I could call him the Ober-GM or the Surpreme Game Master (SGM), but then I would keep reading "sub-machine gun" for the acronym. It's just easier to say Judge & GM for the two roles. Judge ruleings I could appeal (not that I ever do), GMs ruleings are stronger than LAW.

edit: and as for "Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator" I'm guessing it would be PFSCC, or I would have to remember how to spell Coordinator late at night when I'm posting? PFACC sounds like a splat book...pronounced "P-Facts"

Sovereign Court 4/5

Mike did what I expected. Good for him! You can have the rest of the day off now.

As a side note, I'm still thinking about the "pre-blanched" bullets. Seems like a funny idea, albeit I reckon PFS wouldn't allow such an adventure.

Or a thread on the subject. :)

Shadow Lodge

Michael Brock wrote:
I spoke to the design team this morning about this issue. Alchemical cartridges are not meant to have blanch applied to them. I was advised, in a home game, the GM can make whatever call they like. But, for PFS, alchemical cartridges can not receive a blanch.

Well, I must say it's not the answer I was hoping for, but oh well...

I am afraid the massive derail may have muddied the question a bit, though. I was NOT asking if blanches could be applied to alchemical cartridges, which would obviously result in a potential Darwin Award; rather, I was asking if we could pay an NPC to apply the blanch (specifically, ghost salt) to the bullet itself, before it's inclusion in the paper cartridge.

As it stands, all other ranged weapons can use ghost salt on their best ammunition, so that they don't have to waste money on a special weapon to use against incorporeal opponents; it strikes me as a bit... "unfair", I suppose, that gunslingers would have to fall back to loose powder and bullets to gain the same benefit, doubly so because the only reason they have to do so is because of the PFS no-crafting rules.

Essentially, gunslingers either have to spend 9,000+gp (which means they need 27 fame) to get a +1 Ghost Touch gun, or fall back on the worse action economy of NOT using alchemical cartridges, meaning a pistoleer with Rapid Reload wouldn't be able to full attack without suffering the 50% miss chance.

5/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Yes ... that does seem to be an intentional bit of game balance there.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

SCPRedMage wrote:
Essentially, gunslingers either have to spend 9,000+gp (which means they need 27 fame) to get a +1 Ghost Touch gun, or fall back on the worse action economy of NOT using alchemical cartridges, meaning a pistoleer with Rapid Reload wouldn't be able to full attack without suffering the 50% miss chance.

Actually, Ghost Touch is not an option for ranged weapons. Instead, a player would have to buy 50 rounds of +1 Ghost Touch Alchemical Cartridges at a cost of 8,600 GP.

4/5

Michael Brock wrote:
I spoke to the design team this morning about this issue. Alchemical cartridges are not meant to have blanch applied to them. I was advised, in a home game, the GM can make whatever call they like. But, for PFS, alchemical cartridges can not receive a blanch.

Thanks for the answer Mr. Brock. I appreciate the work you do for this campaign.

Shadow Lodge

Will Johnson wrote:
Actually, Ghost Touch is not an option for ranged weapons. Instead, a player would have to buy 50 rounds of +1 Ghost Touch Alchemical Cartridges at a cost of 8,600 GP.

Sure enough, you're right; according to the tables, ghost touch can only apply to melee weapons and ammunition. Too bad the description makes no mention of that fact, which is how I missed that...

The 8,600gp price you list is without the Gunsmithing discount; a gunslinger with ranks in Craft (alchemy) would pay 8,300gp. Either way, it still costs eight times what other ranged characters would have to pay (1,000gp for enough ghost salt for 50 pieces of ammunition), plus the need to buy them in larger lots, and thus the need for higher Fame.

Assuming you earn max prestige every time, you can buy ghost salt after 2.5 adventures (5 fame for items 500gp or less), which means you can buy it at level two. Fifty rounds of +1 Ghost Touch ammo requires fame 27 (since it's just over the 8,000gp mark), so best case is 13.5 adventures, which solidly puts you at level five, with only one XP until level six.

If you instead assume that you earn 1.5 prestige per adventure (which is the campaign goal), that means you can't buy the Ghost Touch ammo until level seven.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

I came up with 8,600 based on 300 for the alchemical charges at the discounted rate and then another 300 to make the 50 rounds masterwork, since only masterwork weapons and ammunition can be enchanted.

Frankly, I may have done this wrong. I'm not 100% certain how the Gunsmithing discount interacts with masterwork ammo.

Sovereign Court 1/5

Just so you know where I stand, I am bummed that there is no current path to having ghost salt apply to alchemical cartridges too.

But you can still add the salt to single bullets at the same level as bolts and arrows. The downside being reload times. So the new question should be if the Campaign Staff is willing to say why firearms should restrict their rate of fire when compared to bows and crossbows, only in the case of weapon blanches. On the surface it doesn't seem fair, but maybe they have a good reason.

Shadow Lodge

Will Johnson wrote:

I came up with 8,600 based on 300 for the alchemical charges at the discounted rate and then another 300 to make the 50 rounds masterwork, since only masterwork weapons and ammunition can be enchanted.

Frankly, I may have done this wrong. I'm not 100% certain how the Gunsmithing discount interacts with masterwork ammo.

No no, you're right; I forgot to factor in masterwork, silly me. >.>

Although, yeah, this DOES raise the question of whether the masterwork quality gets the discount or not...

Shadow Lodge

RtrnofdMax wrote:

Just so you know where I stand, I am bummed that there is no current path to having ghost salt apply to alchemical cartridges too.

But you can still add the salt to single bullets at the same level as bolts and arrows. The downside being reload times. So the new question should be if the Campaign Staff is willing to say why firearms should restrict their rate of fire when compared to bows and crossbows, only in the case of weapon blanches. On the surface it doesn't seem fair, but maybe they have a good reason.

The only reason I could see would be some sort of balance issue between firearms and (cross)bows, but that's the kind of thing that needs to be fixed in the BASE game rules, not a special campaign adjustment. I mean, if this was a third party campaign, they'd HAVE to address balance problems that way, but this is Paizo; if there's a balance issue in RAW, they CAN address it.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

I'd simply say that there is a need for new items. After all, until the release of the Pathfinder Society Field Guide, buying 50 +1 Ghost Touch arrows / bolts was the only option for archers. Before the APG, without blanches, we had to pay full price for Adamantine arrows: 1,201 GP for 20. My retired bard in PFS still has a few he's not used.

The introduction of a new item, such a ghost salts, must be viewed for what it is: power creep and not a nerf for those who cannot get the maximum benefit from it.

I'd also argue that since ghost salt arrows are the preferred solution for many characters to incorporeal creatures, that most gunslingers aren't too bad off. Certainly better off than the typical rogue with a short bow and no ranged feats.

The Exchange

My slinger may have to carry a pepperbox full of the ghost salt bullets after reading this.

The Exchange

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Also bullet and powder are the default reload to a gun, not the paper cartridge. If you can do the same to a bullet you can to a bolt or arrow it is equivalent. The paper cartridge is a separate special ammo that has become the choice of players but it is not the base ammo you should put all of your assumptions on

Sovereign Court 1/5

Andrew R wrote:
Also bullet and powder are the default reload to a gun, not the paper cartridge. If you can do the same to a bullet you can to a bolt or arrow it is equivalent. The paper cartridge is a separate special ammo that has become the choice of players but it is not the base ammo you should put all of your assumptions on

This is probably the best argument against I have read. There are bullets, bolts and arrows, and then their are alchemical cartridges and magazines for repeating crossbows. You wouldn't ghost salt the magazine. Sure it's easier to visualize taking apart the magazine and salting the bolts than taking apart a paper cartridge, but I'm coming around a bit.

Shadow Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Andrew R wrote:
Also bullet and powder are the default reload to a gun, not the paper cartridge. If you can do the same to a bullet you can to a bolt or arrow it is equivalent. The paper cartridge is a separate special ammo that has become the choice of players but it is not the base ammo you should put all of your assumptions on

It's kinda the de facto standard, seeing as they're absolutely required (along with Rapid Reload, and even then only with one-handed firearms) to full attack.

Shadow Lodge

RtrnofdMax wrote:
You wouldn't ghost salt the magazine. Sure it's easier to visualize taking apart the magazine and salting the bolts than taking apart a paper cartridge, but I'm coming around a bit.

Since when can you NOT manually load a repeating crossbow magazine? And even if you're going to go the "it doesn't say you can scratch the itch on your back with your quarterstaff" route, why couldn't you simply ask the fellow loading the magazine to simply apply the blanch before he puts the bolts in?

"I say good chap, that last repeating crossbow magazine worked marvels against those bloody fiendish goblins last week, but I fear there may be wraiths in the next set of ruins I explore. Would you be a chap and apply this compound to the bolts before loading them in? Yes, you just need to coat the tip, and hold it over a fire for about a minute. Thanks, old bean, I'll be by in the morning to pick up those two magazines, plus a couple more of your standard stock."

Sovereign Court 1/5

I'm not saying you can't get a wizard to do it. Just that I am seeing a different perspective now. I saw bullets, arrows and alchemical cartridges as the same before, but now I am looking at alchemical cartridges and bolt magazines and anything else I can't remember that makes reloading easier as something different than ammunition.

Dark Archive 4/5

SCPRedMage wrote:
Essentially, gunslingers either have to spend 9,000+gp (which means they need 27 fame) to get a +1 Ghost Touch gun, or fall back on the worse action economy of NOT using alchemical cartridges, meaning a pistoleer with Rapid Reload wouldn't be able to full attack without suffering the 50% miss chance.

By this, you of course mean "suffering the half damage penalty", seeing as there's only a 50% miss chance when attacking incorporeal enemies in the 3.5 rules.

I don't see an issue. By the time you are frequently encountering incorporeal enemies, you have access to the Deadshot deed. Muzzle load a regular ghost salted bullet, and Deadshot it the next round. Incorporeal enemies tend to have low health anyway. Incorporeal enemies can also be one of the few things that a tricked out gunslinger cannot shred in a single round.

Dark Archive 4/5 5/5 ****

I am fine with the ruling... makes good enough sense to me.

As to only being able to fire a single shot per turn, then to me this seems like a good argument for having Vital Strike (and Deadly Aim). Make each shot count!

Either that, or just plaster the incorporeal beastie with magical lead, and take advantage of the fact that with all of your shots that even 50% damage will do a lot!

You'll be taking advantage of the fact that undead in Pathfinder only have d8 hit dice, and the change from 50% miss to 50% damage. You do have a magical boom stick at that level, right?

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 ****

Andrew R wrote:
My slinger may have to carry a pepperbox full of the ghost salt bullets after reading this.

At a comparatively cheap price of ~3500, that's not a bad idea. Sounds better than the ghost touch enchantment at least.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Natalya wrote:
Andrew R wrote:
My slinger may have to carry a pepperbox full of the ghost salt bullets after reading this.
At a comparatively cheap price of ~3500, that's not a bad idea. Sounds better than the ghost touch enchantment at least.

My Musket Master uses her pepperbox with the following mix. Two silver, two cold iron, two adamantine bullets. That way she can pull, 'dial' to the chamber and shoot. (ask a certain wererat in an interactive how that felt.)

2/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Michael Brock wrote:
I spoke to the design team this morning about this issue. Alchemical cartridges are not meant to have blanch applied to them. I was advised, in a home game, the GM can make whatever call they like. But, for PFS, alchemical cartridges can not receive a blanch.

Mike, I understand that you can not blanch an alchemical cartridge, but about using cold iron as the metal which is being wrapped in paper. Does the paper burn off or is the paper still attached when the target is hit?

If the paper is burned off, couldn't you just wrap cold-iron bullets in paper for alchemical cartridges, and still by-pass the DR of certain creatures?

Also according to the picture shown by RtrnofdMax
it looks like you can have part of the bullet exposed anyways, giving access to cold-iron contact with the creature.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Global Organized Play Coordinator

1 person marked this as a favorite.

That's a question for the design team for the overall rules set and not just PFS. We don't allow creating custom items in PFS for numerous reasons. It sounds what you are asking for is a custom item that isn't listed in any Rulebook. Please ask your question a few forums up so the design team can address.

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