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A couple gunslinger ammo questions.


Pathfinder Society® General Discussion

**** Venture-Captain, Pennsylvania—Philadelphia

4 people marked this as a favorite.

I play a gunslinger and I just wanted to check my math to see if I have the right prices for different types of ammo. I'm going to assume the 1/2 cost that Gunsmithing grants in PFS.

Adamantite Paper Cartridge would be 36gp

Alchemical Silver Paper Cartridge would be 7gp

Blood Crystal Paper Cartridge would be 21gp

Cold Iron Paper Cartridge would be 12gp

Elysian Bronze Paper Cartridge would be 16gp

Mithral Paper Cartridge would 10.5gp? [No weight listed makes this hard, and probably not able to be bought.]

Viridium Paper Cartridge would be 16gp

Also I wouldn't be able to use Ghost Salts because it requires the item being put over a hot flame right? Which means if I want ghost salted ammo I have to stick with non-alchemical ammo. Which kinda sucks because it prevents full attacking with ghost salted ammo.

Thanks.

Grand Lodge ****

You should be able to apply Ghost Salts to normal bullets (though not paper cartridges.. (as well as other weapon blanches) BUT the only way I can see you doing full attack (ie.. more than 1 attack) is if you got a dual barrel pistol/musket or a pepperbox with blanched bullets preloaded.

Silver Crusade ***** Venture-Captain, Indiana—Bloomington aka CanisDirus

I asked something like this awhile back - I don't think there are rules for special-materials-in-alchemical-cartridges in PFS, which makes them a custom item and thus, not PFS-legal (much to my own dismay as I also play a gunslinger).

Liberty's Edge ***

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
CanisDirus wrote:
I asked something like this awhile back - I don't think there are rules for special-materials-in-alchemical-cartridges in PFS, which makes them a custom item and thus, not PFS-legal (much to my own dismay as I also play a gunslinger).

This. It also makes the lightning reload deed slightly more powerful, as sometimes you need to rely on special material bullets and black powder.

**** Venture-Captain, Pennsylvania—Philadelphia

CanisDirus wrote:
I asked something like this awhile back - I don't think there are rules for special-materials-in-alchemical-cartridges in PFS, which makes them a custom item and thus, not PFS-legal (much to my own dismay as I also play a gunslinger).

See I don't see how that can be true. Because that would make a adamantite sling bullet a custom item, or an cold iron arrow even. By RAW a paper cartridge is ammo, and by RAW for example adding adamantite to ammo cost 60 gp.

Mithral is probably a grey area because of the lack of weight on a paper cartridge, but the bullet part does have a weight. But I can see that being unavailable in PFS since it requires more math than usual.

Anyone have a rules quote or reference to where paper cartridges don't count as ammo for special materials, and does that apply to enchanting? Seems a weird ruling.

As for the ghost blanch, I figured I was out of luck with them. Kinda sucks that Alchemical Cartridges are the only types of ammo that can't be weapon blanched.

Grand Lodge ****

I look on it like this..it's another thing for me to have a pepperbox for. I can't use explosive missile on my main weapon so I have to have a back up for that, and I figure sooner or later I'll need a close up weapon as well.

Liberty's Edge ***

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber

The previous thread.

*

Those numbers can't be right. Just a adamantite bullet alone costs 61g.

Wow, gunslinging is really expensive. When I GM a gunslinger in the future, I'm definitely going to help them keep track of their ammo. :)

Grand Lodge ****

The OP said he was factoring in the half-price from gumsmithing.

**** Venture-Captain, Pennsylvania—Philadelphia

Jason S wrote:

Those numbers can't be right. Just a adamantite bullet alone costs 61g.

Wow, gunslinging is really expensive. When I GM a gunslinger in the future, I'm definitely going to help them keep track of their ammo. :)

Adamantite Bullet cost 6.1gp after gunsmithing discount is added in. And every gun owner in PFS must have Gunsmithing so the gunsmithing price reductions are factored in to the list above.

Grand Lodge ****

Jason S wrote:

Those numbers can't be right. Just a adamantite bullet alone costs 61g.

Wow, gunslinging is really expensive. When I GM a gunslinger in the future, I'm definitely going to help them keep track of their ammo. :)

And yes, you have to make sure they actually purchase all that ammo - it can add up, and it is the only significant limitation on the class to offset all of the benefits.

Liberty's Edge ***

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
Scott Young wrote:
And yes, you have to make sure they actually purchase all that ammo - it can add up, and it is the only significant limitation on the class to offset all of the benefits.

Tell that to my frequently misfiring pistolero...

Grand Lodge ****

Jeffrey Fox wrote:
Jason S wrote:

Those numbers can't be right. Just a adamantite bullet alone costs 61g.

Wow, gunslinging is really expensive. When I GM a gunslinger in the future, I'm definitely going to help them keep track of their ammo. :)

Adamantite Bullet cost 6.1gp after gunsmithing discount is added in. And every gun owner in PFS must have Gunsmithing so the gunsmithing price reductions are factored in to the list above.

You forgot one thing Jeffery, you need a rank in Craft:Alchemy.

**** Venture-Captain, Pennsylvania—Philadelphia

sveden wrote:
Jeffrey Fox wrote:
Jason S wrote:

Those numbers can't be right. Just a adamantite bullet alone costs 61g.

Wow, gunslinging is really expensive. When I GM a gunslinger in the future, I'm definitely going to help them keep track of their ammo. :)

Adamantite Bullet cost 6.1gp after gunsmithing discount is added in. And every gun owner in PFS must have Gunsmithing so the gunsmithing price reductions are factored in to the list above.
You forgot one thing Jeffery, you need a rank in Craft:Alchemy.

I did forget to mention that, thanks.

Grand Lodge ****

Paz wrote:
Scott Young wrote:
And yes, you have to make sure they actually purchase all that ammo - it can add up, and it is the only significant limitation on the class to offset all of the benefits.
Tell that to my frequently misfiring pistolero...

I feel yer pain Brudder..

Musket has misfired ONCE and I know I live a charmed life thus far. (Now.. my attacks with my SWORD.. I've rolled like six 1's)

Excuse me.. got to go knock on wood.

Silver Crusade ***** Venture-Captain, Indiana—Bloomington aka CanisDirus

Jeffrey Fox wrote:
Anyone have a rules quote or reference to where paper cartridges don't count as ammo for special materials, and does that apply to enchanting? Seems a weird ruling.

I wholeheartedly agree, but the RAW for the cartridges always gives me pause, since PCs can't craft their own ammo, and there's no "easy conversion" for the special materials like there is for straight-up-bullets:

A regular bullet costs 1sp for a Gunslinger. Cold Iron is original cost x2, so that's 2sp per bullet. That's easy.

A paper cartridge is 6gp for a Gunslinger. However, that's a mix of a bullet, powder, and other "materials", so would it simply be 12gp per Cold Iron cartridge, or would the cost only go up by the price-difference for the bullet in said cartridge (6gp 1sp)?

Now, back when I asked the original question (thanks Paz for linking to it), that was before I had my hands on Ultimate Equipment, but for me it still seems to be a gray-area question (although I'd love to learn that it's totally legal so my gunslinger can prepare for an upcoming scenario in a few days...)

**** Venture-Captain, Pennsylvania—Philadelphia

Special Materials for ammo doesn't vary based on how much of the ammo is actually made from the material. [Except maybe mithral]

For example it's not cheaper to buy a adamantite arrow just because only the tip is adamantite compared to an adamantite sling bullet which is completely metal. So I think the same would fall in line for firearm ammo.

So an adamantite paper cartridge cost 60gp more than and normal paper cartridge, and a adamantite firearm bullet cost 60gp more than a normal firearm bullet.

The real question is how is the price reduced by gunsmithing. And the adamantite paper cartridge would be 1/2 price, and the adamantite firearm bullet would be 1/10 price.

Now this means that you do have the odd position that the adamantite part of a adamantite paper cartridge cost 30gp and the adamantite part of the adamantite firearm bullet only cost 6gp even though they are probably the same bullet. Which seems unfair, but gunslingers are getting special materials for a whole lot cheaper then other ammo users. But this is the way the rules are currently written

The only way for the system to work fairly would be that special materials cost not be reduced by Gunsmithing. So an adamantite firearm bullet would be 60.1gp and a adamantite paper cartridge would be 66gp. That would be the fairest and most common sense answer. But it's not the way the rules are currently written. But it wouldn't give gunslinger access to cheaper special materials than other ammo users.

Hmm. I wouldn't mind having to pay full price for my special materials with paper cartridges if I could also use weapon blanches on my ammo. That could be the best route is Mike and Mark wanted to make ammo cost and special materials fair for everyone in a FAQ.

Silver Crusade ***** Venture-Captain, Indiana—Bloomington aka CanisDirus

Jeffrey Fox wrote:
Special Materials for ammo doesn't vary based on how much of the ammo is actually made from the material. [Except maybe mithral]

Well, I'm not sure what advantage there is for Mithral, since for weapons it acts just like silver, right?

Quote:

So an adamantite paper cartridge cost 60gp more than and normal paper cartridge, and a adamantite firearm bullet cost 60gp more than a normal firearm bullet.

The real question is how is the price reduced by gunsmithing. And the adamantite paper cartridge would be 1/2 price, and the adamantite firearm bullet would be 1/10 price.

Now this means that you do have the odd position that the adamantite part of a adamantite paper cartridge cost 30gp and the adamantite part of the adamantite firearm bullet only cost 6gp even though they are probably the same bullet. Which seems unfair, but gunslingers are getting special materials for a whole lot cheaper then other ammo users. But this is the way the rules are currently written

Yea, if this is right in that it can be done this way in PFS, I'd guess the "Gunsmithing discount" comes last - so an adamantine paper cartridge would be 12+60 = 72gp, reduced down to 36gp (which I guess is the same as taking a 1/2 price cartridge and adding 1/2 of adamantine cost to it...). Very high cost-wise, but for the ability to "speed load" adamantine/cold iron/silver ammo, that's literally worth its weight in gold, methinks.

Quote:
Hmm. I wouldn't mind having to pay full price for my special materials with paper cartridges if I could also use weapon blanches on my ammo. That could be the best route is Mike and Mark wanted to make ammo cost and special materials fair for everyone in a FAQ.

For me, weapon blanches are so-so since unless they can be put into the cartridges "pre-game" (or at least in advance of a scenario's first combat) you might as well be taking a move action to load bullet-and-powder (lots cheaper too).

I'm still wary (I never want to assume the answer is "yes" and have to ret-con my sheet later), but I think we're on the same general page here :)

**** Venture-Captain, Pennsylvania—Philadelphia

Mithral counts as silver, but doesn't take the damage penalty. Which is what makes it worthwhile.

I like weapon blanches because of ghost salts, it's an awesome blanch when you need it and you are able to put it on between scenarios and have them ready ahead of time.

Grand Lodge ****

Gun costs are definitely an issue with Gunslingers.. aside from your starting gun.. it costs a ton.

For a second gun it costs from 700 gp to 3000 gp depending on what you want. Mundane. Add in MW and pluses and it gets cringe worth. My 'backup' piece for close in work and (later on) explosive Missile, is looking to cost me 3,300 gp (MW Pepperbox.) For that price I can get a plus to a MW Weapon AND a plus to MW armor.

I knew it going in though. I would like some formula on the special materials for paper cartridges though (though the only ones a musket master uses are mundane paper cartridges)

Liberty's Edge ***

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
Kyrie Ebonblade wrote:
My 'backup' piece for close in work and (later on) explosive Missile, is looking to cost me 3,300 gp (MW Pepperbox.)

Bear in mind that the musket master archetype is not proficient with one-handed firearms, including the pepperbox.

Grand Lodge ****

Paz wrote:
Kyrie Ebonblade wrote:
My 'backup' piece for close in work and (later on) explosive Missile, is looking to cost me 3,300 gp (MW Pepperbox.)
Bear in mind that the musket master archetype is not proficient with one-handed firearms, including the pepperbox.

Which is why I got EWP: 1 Handed Firearms..

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Aren't all guns considered masterworked and only the one gained at the beginning of the class needed to be "unbattered" to get the masterwork quality?

Liberty's Edge

Silver only gets a damage penalty for slashing and piercing weapons. If you're going mithral just for the DR/silver on a blunt weapon, its cheaper to stick with silver.

**** Venture-Captain, Pennsylvania—Philadelphia

Scray wrote:
Silver only gets a damage penalty for slashing and piercing weapons. If you're going mithral just for the DR/silver on a blunt weapon, its cheaper to stick with silver.

Guns do bashing and piercing damage so they get the -1 damage. It's called out in the silver bullet rules.

Grand Lodge ****

The Lord wrote:
Aren't all guns considered masterworked and only the one gained at the beginning of the class needed to be "unbattered" to get the masterwork quality?

Nope. Of course is you're going to speed the best part of a grand for a weapon..why not spend a little more to get it MW'ed.

Liberty's Edge

Sorry! Jeffrey you're right of course.

Shadow Lodge **

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Kyrie Ebonblade wrote:
Paz wrote:
Kyrie Ebonblade wrote:
My 'backup' piece for close in work and (later on) explosive Missile, is looking to cost me 3,300 gp (MW Pepperbox.)
Bear in mind that the musket master archetype is not proficient with one-handed firearms, including the pepperbox.
Which is why I got EWP: 1 Handed Firearms..

I'm fairly damn certain that that feat choice is not legal. You cannot pick up EWP for a group of weapons.

Grand Lodge

Does a Gunslinger have to purchase ammo in bundles (like arrows and bolts), or do they purchase it one at a time?

Liberty's Edge ***

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
zean wrote:
Does a Gunslinger have to purchase ammo in bundles (like arrows and bolts), or do they purchase it one at a time?

They're priced individually so can be purchased individually.

Grand Lodge ****

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Ryan Koetsveld wrote:
Kyrie Ebonblade wrote:
Paz wrote:
Kyrie Ebonblade wrote:
My 'backup' piece for close in work and (later on) explosive Missile, is looking to cost me 3,300 gp (MW Pepperbox.)
Bear in mind that the musket master archetype is not proficient with one-handed firearms, including the pepperbox.
Which is why I got EWP: 1 Handed Firearms..
I'm fairly damn certain that that feat choice is not legal. You cannot pick up EWP for a group of weapons.

And how am I supposed to get 1 handed firearms then? Quick check says I have to get EWP: Firearms to use 1 handed firearms.. I just see it as 1hand Firearsm in Herolab..

**** Venture-Captain, Pennsylvania—Philadelphia

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

You just take Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Firearms as a feat and it gives you proficiency with all firearms. Ryan is wrong about that feat being illegal.

Paizo Employee ***** Global Organized Play Coordinator

6 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. 20 people marked this as a favorite.

In short, here is how it works.

You figure out the cost of special material ammunition the normal way (or look it up on the table of page 141). If you have the Gunsmithing feat you can craft non-alchemical cartridge ammunition for 10% of the cost. If you have at least 1 rank in Craft (alchemy) you can craft alchemical cartridges for half the price of the cartridge.

**** Venture-Captain, Pennsylvania—Philadelphia

Awesome and thanks. Now my gunslinger will be able to get some use out of Elysian Bronze Paper Cartridges and Adamantite Paper Cartridges and not have to worry about table variance.

You're the best.

Shadow Lodge **

Thomas Graham wrote:
Ryan Koetsveld wrote:
Kyrie Ebonblade wrote:
Paz wrote:
Kyrie Ebonblade wrote:
My 'backup' piece for close in work and (later on) explosive Missile, is looking to cost me 3,300 gp (MW Pepperbox.)
Bear in mind that the musket master archetype is not proficient with one-handed firearms, including the pepperbox.
Which is why I got EWP: 1 Handed Firearms..
I'm fairly damn certain that that feat choice is not legal. You cannot pick up EWP for a group of weapons.
And how am I supposed to get 1 handed firearms then? Quick check says I have to get EWP: Firearms to use 1 handed firearms.. I just see it as 1hand Firearsm in Herolab..

Well I stand corrected after looking into this it turns out fire arms are the exception to what I said earlier.

I wouldn't trust Herolab with everything, it get's most things right, most importantly includes things you often forget, but at times does do things wrong.

Silver Crusade ***** Venture-Captain, Indiana—Bloomington aka CanisDirus

Jeffrey Fox wrote:

Awesome and thanks. Now my gunslinger will be able to get some use out of Elysian Bronze Paper Cartridges and Adamantite Paper Cartridges and not have to worry about table variance.

You're the best.

Sticking with bullets/powder for Adamantine/Elysian might still be good advice for gunslingers at pre-iterative-attacks levels... 6.1 gp per shot as opposed to 36 gp per shot can make a big difference methinks.

+1 on Mike Brock being the best!


The "Abundant Ammunition" spell is a workaround to mitigate costs, but you have to either be good at UMDing a wand of it, bothering a party member to cast it every combat, or take a non-gunslinger class level to get it.

Not that taking a level is necessarily a bad thing, a one level dip into a casting class can be darn useful for other stuff too.

-k

Dark Archive ****

Jason Wu wrote:

The "Abundant Ammunition" spell is a workaround to mitigate costs, but you have to either be good at UMDing a wand of it, bothering a party member to cast it every combat, or take a non-gunslinger class level to get it.

Not that taking a level is necessarily a bad thing, a one level dip into a casting class can be darn useful for other stuff too.

-k

Or be a half-elf with the Arcane Training alternate trait and choose Bard, Sorcerer, or Wizard as your favored class. This is especially nice in a game that only spans a few low levels, since you'll get a lot a front-loaded benefit versus a lot of longterm benefit.

Shadow Lodge ****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Seems like the Mithril bullets come out cheaper than silver, since it's by weight. Comes out as.. 9.33 gp per bullet, instead of 25 for silver. That's a good difference, and doesn't have silver's damage reduction. Am I reading that right?

(0.5 lbs per 30 bullets, mithral is +500gp per pound)

Liberty's Edge **

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Im going to try to work on a table which concisely lists the costs for Bullets / Alchemical Cartridges when I get a chance (hopefully tonight). Ill see what I can do about posting it up somewhere as I keep forgetting the costs myself!

Shadow Lodge

Matt did you ever make that table of PFS bullet/Cartridge costs?

Thanks!

Silver Crusade ***** Venture-Captain, Indiana—Bloomington aka CanisDirus

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Another local VL and I are trying to find a little time to work up a guide / table too. I've got my PhD prelim exam in a few weeks, but after that I should be golden to get it going.

Shadow Lodge

Awesome thanks!

**** Venture-Captain, Pennsylvania—Philadelphia

The prices I posted should be right, except Mithral.

Sovereign Court *

Michael Brock wrote:

In short, here is how it works.

You figure out the cost of special material ammunition the normal way (or look it up on the table of page 141). If you have the Gunsmithing feat you can craft non-alchemical cartridge ammunition for 10% of the cost. If you have at least 1 rank in Craft (alchemy) you can craft alchemical cartridges for half the price of the cartridge.

Sorry to take this to the level of grammar, but when you say "you" in the quoted section, are you saying that the gunslinger is making these items or is it a general "you" where it refers to some unnamed npc who makes this for you?

Scarab Sages *****

Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber
Michael Brock wrote:

In short, here is how it works.

You figure out the cost of special material ammunition the normal way (or look it up on the table of page 141). If you have the Gunsmithing feat you can craft non-alchemical cartridge ammunition for 10% of the cost. If you have at least 1 rank in Craft (alchemy) you can craft alchemical cartridges for half the price of the cartridge.

Mike can you clarify this post?

I originally read it as you first figure out the price special material ammunition (10%) then add it to the price of the alchemical cartridges (50%).

But the second time I read it I noticed it could be read as you add the normal price of special material ammunition + alchemical cartridges and then half it which is a much higher price then my original read.

Which is it?

*

I interpret it as bullet and cartridge being priced serparately, like your initial interpretation.

**** Venture-Captain, Pennsylvania—Philadelphia

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Dragnmoon wrote:

But the second time I read it I noticed it could be read as you add the normal price of special material ammunition + alchemical cartridges and then half it which is a much higher price then my original read.

Which is it?

This is correct. When buying a paper cartridge you don't buy the bullet separate from the paper it's all one piece of ammo. Just like when buying arrows you don't buy the head separate from the shaft.

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