Can Vital Strike also be used with Arcane Strike?
Swift action to activate Arcane Strike and a standard action for Vital Strike? Sure, but you only multiply the weapon's damage dice, not the bonus damage from Arcane Strike.
Thats what I thought but just wanted clarification...ty
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It works because Arcane Strike is a Swift Action.
However, you should never take Vital Strike unless you are some kind of really big monster with a nasty natural attack, like a T-Rex, preferably with Strong Jaw, because Vital Strike is a terrible trap feat.
Hmmm..ok....something to think about
How is it a trap feat? It increases your damage pretty much whenever you are unable to make a full attack. That sounds pretty good to me.
Not the greatest feat out there, but hardly a trap.
True traps are things like the Powerful Sneak and Deadly Sneak rogue talents, which actually lower your potential DPR when used (because they lower your attack bonus) rather than raise your average damage by allowing you to reroll 1s and 2s on your sneak attack dice.
Currently have Power Attack/Furious Focus...would Cleave be a better choice then?
Currently have Power Attack/Furious Focus...would Cleave be a better choice then?
Cleave is ok. Furious Focus is pretty lousy, honestly--you're better off with Weapon Focus most of the time, so I'd recommend that.
We have a fighter that in literally every adventure only gets 2-3 out of 10-15 rounds with full attacks...for him the option of vital strike option with any weapon is good.
No, better options for him are:
1) Archery
2) Spellcasting
3) Pouncing
4) Getting a mount/flying carpet/etc.
5) Not having crappy teammates that don't work to get him more full attacks (Dimension Door is a good way for a caster to deliver a tactical fighter nuke, for example, and there are better options than that, too)
How is it a trap feat? It increases your damage pretty much whenever you are unable to make a full attack. That sounds pretty good to me.
Not the greatest feat out there, but hardly a trap.
True traps are things like the Powerful Sneak and Deadly Sneak rogue talents, which actually lower your potential DPR when used (because they lower your attack bonus) rather than raise your average damage by allowing you to reroll 1s and 2s on your sneak attack dice.
It's a trap feat because it is not an increase that is worth a feat. You are correct that it is not directly penalizing, like those terrible talents are, but few things are that bad.
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So it's not a trap feat, it's just not optimal. Gotcha.
How would a fighter get the pounce ability? When I played a fighter I played a pretty standard one, but I used thrown weapons for ranged attacks and had Two-Handed Thrower, my GM never mentioned a way to get pounce though...?
Pouncing is rare for a Player Character to get.
IIRC Dimension Door robs the Fighter of their actions for that round if they move after the Wizard.
Pouncing is rare for a Player Character to get.
The easiest ways are to be a Level 10 Barbarian or anyone able to get Beast Form III (Druids, many spellcasters, Beastmorph Alchemists, I think there's a monk archetype...)--the point is that it's not that rare.
IIRC Dimension Door robs the Fighter of their actions for that round if they move after the Wizard.
The spell states that, "After using this spell, you can't take any other actions until your next turn." Since the Fighter is never the one using the spell, the caster is, the Fighter is not robbed of any actions.
Ok...so then listing pouncing for a fighter to get instead of vital strike was not correct then...just making sure I wasn't missing something there
Then it must have been another spell...
And again if you look at the full options for a PC Pounce is Rare. And even then it is nearly impossible for a Fighter to get without a single Archetype.
And again if you look at the full options for a PC Pounce is Rare. And even then it is nearly impossible for a Fighter to get without a single Archetype.
Well, yeah, Fighters are not a good choice in a game where you can't get full attacks.
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And again if you look at the full options for a PC Pounce is Rare. And even then it is nearly impossible for a Fighter to get without a single Archetype.Well, yeah, Fighters are not a good choice in a game where you can't get full attacks.
Unless you get vital strike.
Our greatsword loving'n'wielding fighter has never complained about this feat. On the contrary, he likes to be 'mobile', and be able to still attack with righteous fury :)All depends on the GM I reckon (tactical placement) and on the player (fluff dependency: mine wouldn't get on a carpet/mount unless he saw Gorum do it first :p )
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I'm coming around to liking Vital Strike. For druids and animal companions it's a serious option, in forms with a single big natural attack *cough*arsinoitherium*coucgh*.
As for fighters.. we play on a lot of big battlefields. There's a lot of running around, chasing after some enemies. Our 2HW fighter kills a lot of things with one hit, but then he needs to walk over to the next enemy. Vital Strike would work just fine for him.
Sure, archery might work too, but that doesn't work all that well with the 2HW fighter archetype.
And again if you look at the full options for a PC Pounce is Rare. And even then it is nearly impossible for a Fighter to get without a single Archetype.Well, yeah, Fighters are not a good choice in a game where you can't get full attacks.Unless you get vital strike.
Our greatsword loving'n'wielding fighter has never complained about this feat. On the contrary, he likes to be 'mobile', and be able to still attack with righteous fury :)
No, being a Fighter is a bad choice in that game because Vital Strike isn't good enough to make up for the lack of full attacks.
Vital Strike literally cannot deal as much damage as making multiple attacks can deal. Unless you are very inaccurate, it will never have the same dpr numbers as two swings--and if you are very inaccurate, you should be working on accuracy, not damage.
Sure, archery might work too, but that doesn't work all that well with the 2HW fighter archetype.
In all seriousness, Vital Strike is crappy enough that with minimal investment, switching entirely mid-character to archery, you will still do more with a bow than with Vital Strike. It's just not a good feat.
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Vital Strike is a trap feat because you can't combine it with the most obvious feats and tactics out there:
Spring Attack? Nope...
Charge? Nope...
Pinpoint Targeting? Nope...
Wind/Lightning Stance? Nope...
If Pathfinder and Paizo would just let us combine Vital Strike with feats that only allows you to make a single attack, then it would be better.
I have a player who wants to go with Vital Strike. And we had a dsicussion as to whether or not he can use it in conjunction with Cleave? Anyone who knows?
He cannot.
Currently have Power Attack/Furious Focus...would Cleave be a better choice then?
Depends. If you always fight single guys, Furious Focus is better, especially at high levels (Weapon Focus is better at levels 1-4). If you always fight mobs of guys who stand next to each other, Cleave is better. If it varies a lot, what's the balance?
I like Cleave because it lets you move and still make two attacks (most of the time). If I play a fighter, I usually take Cleave, but I take it as one of my fighter bonus feats so I can swap it out later if I need to.
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So if someone makes a character and that character is a fighter...he wants a way to get more damage when he has to move, which barring him having his own personal caster-wagon he cannot do unless he goes mobile fighter and not until level 11, or takes on using a move action to put away his sword, draw bow, then only be able to fire one time before the other opponent is even up on him and that's IF he has quick draw to get the bow out as free action.
You are saying that they should just play a different class?
Gotcha...so the character doesn't matter as much as his DPR? You should only play a class and build that does the MOST DPR you can get regardless of whether its the character you wanted to play?...am I getting this correct?
If so...at that point it is no longer role playing and I don't want any part of it, why even role play when all that matters is your DPR
Vital Strike literally cannot deal as much damage as making multiple attacks can deal. Unless you are very inaccurate, it will never have the same dpr numbers as two swings--and if you are very inaccurate, you should be working on accuracy, not damage.
So, let's see if I got this right...
Move over and attack WITH vital strike will cause less damage than moving over and attacking ONCE without vital strike?Simplified:
I agree that 3x normal attack > 1x vital strike.
But can you please agree that 1x vital strike > 1x normal attack?
Other people's opinions:
Sometimes full attacks are not an option!!
Some people care about their characters, and not only about the numbers!!
Trap feats are useless feats, imho. For example, my fighter in Full Plate wanted to take fleet. It wasn't until later we noticed it didn't work => trap feat > he got to retrain it.
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Maybe some people don't want to "pounce" like a freak.
Maybe some people simply want to hit things with their big sword! :)
Wouldn't Vital strike be useful with a AoO build? say a fighter with a reach weapon and combat reflexes. No harm in doing more damage for those attacks, and when he got to move, that will be an option too (if he cannot charge)
Or is there something that makes it impossible to use it on AoO?
Vital Strike doesn't work with AoO's either, since it is an attack action (which is a standard action).
I think that's why people consider it a trap feat. It does not do what the vast majority of people think it does.
It's a situational feat like almost all feats are...in a situation where you HAVE to move up to your opponent (happens alot for fighters) to hit them with the weapon that you have weapon focus, weapon training, and weapon specialization for, being able to do some more damage on that one attack isn't by any means a BAD thing, in some situations grabbing the ranged weapon is better, but that depends on the situation, just like cleave is...its not to be used a huge damage dealer, is there if you need it when you need...at higher levels when you have more options to get into position (like a caster-wagon) its not as great since you will hopefully get more full-attacks
And all feats are the same way, in certain situations all feats can be worthless
Gotcha...so the character doesn't matter as much as his DPR?
No, it was hyperbole to point out exactly how bad Vital Strike is. It is almost impossible to be in a situation where Vital Strike is the best feat for you to take.
So, let's see if I got this right...
Move over and attack WITH vital strike will cause less damage than moving over and attacking ONCE without vital strike
I was actually saying that two attacks were better than one with Vital Strike.
But, in truth, yes, your overall damage is going to be higher choosing another feat in almost all circumstances.
Simplified:
I agree that 3x normal attack > 1x vital strike.
But can you please agree that 1x vital strike > 1x normal attack?
A single vital strike is better than a single non-vital strike. But in the grand scheme of things, vital strike as a feat, will add less to your overall damage than most other feats.
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I actually do recommend taking Vital Strike early for big two-handed weapon fighters only. Basically Earth Breaker or Greatsword builds. Up until level 6 you're only going to get one attack per round anyway except in very rare situations, so 2D6 is a LOT of extra damage. At level 8 you can swap it out for a different feat. (Hello Improved Critical AND Greater Weapon Focus at level 8!)
May I have an example please...of a feat...not anything else, just a feat
We will use a basic build for a 2H fighter using a greatsword, make him half-orc for the hell of it
Lvl 1 feat: Weapon Focus
Lvl 1 feat: Dodge
Lvl 2 feat: Power Attack
Lvl 3 feat: Combat Reflexes
Lvl 4 feat: Weapon Specialization
Lvl 5 feat: Step-Up
Lvl 6 feat:"insert feat"
At level 6 what feat can this guy take to increase his damage since that is all that is important is his DPR (in this situation)
I'm not saying Vital Strike is a godly feat...or that every fighter should take it...but its not worthless either
What's interesting is that the new edition essentially rolls in Vital Strike and its associated feats as a native ability of any martially inclined
What!?
May I have an example please...of a feat...not anything else, just a feat
We will use a basic build for a 2H fighter using a greatsword, make him half-orc for the hell of it
Lvl 1 feat: Weapon Focus
Lvl 1 feat: Dodge
Lvl 2 feat: Power Attack
Lvl 3 feat: Combat Reflexes
Lvl 4 feat: Weapon Specialization
Lvl 5 feat: Step-Up
Lvl 6 feat:"insert feat"At level 6 what feat can this guy take to increase his damage since that is all that is important is his DPR (in this situation)
I'm not saying Vital Strike is a godly feat...or that every fighter should take it...but its not worthless either
First, there's no way such a character should ever take Dodge before Power Attack.
And to answer your question, while I bet I could give you many more feats, the one off the top of my head is Furious Focus (a feat I also generally don't recommend).
If you're using a greatsword and you don't hit on a 2 or miss on a 19, Vital Strike will add 7(hit chance) dpr when you can only make a single attack, while Furious Focus will add .10(your average damage on a hit) dpr every round that your attack regardless of whether it's a standard or full attack action.
Let's say you hit 75% of the time, and you have to move 33% of the time. That means Vital Strike adds 1.75 dpr, while Furious Focus works every round you can attack, so it'll add more than 1.75 dpr if your average swing is for 18 or more damage.
Considering their average damage on a swing is probably 2d6 + something in the mid twenties, yeah, vital strike is no good.
Even if you expect that you'll need to move (and thus only get full attacks) 50% of the time, which is extremely unlikely, you'll still be better off with Furious Focus if you deal at least 27 average damage on a hit, which, yeah, obviously you will be doing that much.
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Furious Focus will generally do more damage for you then Vital Strike will at level 6 when appropriate (a fixed +6 or +9 damage).
So, Furious Focus is a great feat to get if you are attacking with Power Attack. More to the point, it works even when you have multiple attacks, making sure your Primary Attack stays at it's best to hit!
Vital Strike, for a bastard sword, adds +1d10 dmg on a single attack action (avg 5.5) However, it does stack with Power Attack.
If you get Enlarged, however, it adds +2-16! (avg 9)
If you are using Lead Blades in addition, it will add +3-24!!(Avg 13.5) So, Vital Strike is a feat that gets better and better with your SIZE.
If you can gather the magic allowing you to effectively wield a bigger blade, Vital Strike can do an IMPRESSIVE amount of additional damage!
If you can't, then it's Meh. Take Furious Focus, which at least scales as Power Attack goes up.
==Aelryinth
Yep. Instead of iterative attacks, fighty types accrue weapon damage dice, which basically lets you roll one or more extra dX of damage every time you hit with your weapon.What's interesting is that the new edition essentially rolls in Vital Strike and its associated feats as a native ability of any martially inclinedWhat!?
Try to be serious in the Rules Forum...
Yep. Instead of iterative attacks, fighty types accrue weapon damage dice, which basically lets you roll one or more extra dX of damage every time you hit with your weapon.What's interesting is that the new edition essentially rolls in Vital Strike and its associated feats as a native ability of any martially inclinedWhat!?
Just to explain, he's not confused by the rules you explained, but by the idea of another edition.
The information he's missing is not the martial damage dice, but that you're talking about D&D Next, not Pathfinder 2.0 or something.
Ok I started to say the only ruleset I knew that used that method was the Saga of Fire and Ice Expansion for Dragon Realms...
D&D Next... Bleck. They are so desperate for cash they are even reprinting 3.5's 3 Core Books.
May I have an example please...of a feat...not anything else, just a feat
We will use a basic build for a 2H fighter using a greatsword, make him half-orc for the hell of it
Lvl 1 feat: Weapon Focus
Lvl 1 feat: Dodge
Lvl 2 feat: Power Attack
Lvl 3 feat: Combat Reflexes
Lvl 4 feat: Weapon Specialization
Lvl 5 feat: Step-Up
Lvl 6 feat:"insert feat"At level 6 what feat can this guy take to increase his damage since that is all that is important is his DPR (in this situation)
I'm not saying Vital Strike is a godly feat...or that every fighter should take it...but its not worthless either
1) Furious Focus: no hit penalty for Power attack on 1st hit. Which is more useful when limited to one attack too. Plus can be combined with charge unlike Vital Strike.
PA at level 6 adds 6 damage, with no hit penalty (furious focus)Vital Strike adds +7 (average 2d6) but lowers hit with PA by 2 (since you took this instead of Furious Focus).
2) Precise Strike (assuming ally has it) adds +1d6 when flanking
3) Building toward Deadly stroke? Start with of course Curnugan smash. then get Dazzling display, Shatter Defenses, remember it deals double damage and Con bleed 1 (that means each round till they get it to stop). 1 Con deals 2 hp/level (assuming even stat).
Unlike Vital strike it doubles everything not just damage dice but str bonus, magic enhancement, etc.
4) why DPR is good defenses are as well: get Iron Will