i'm about to take over as my groups main GM, and im trying to come up with solutions to problems that i myself experienced as a player. one of the big ones was alignment and code of conduct.
to me, someones alignment is their own personal views and beliefs, that most certainly affect behavior, but dont rule it
too often i am in a campaign where the GM will get into a far too in depth discussion about the conduct of players and how it affects their alignment as if it mattered, and to anyone playing a monk or paladin sure it would, but what about everyone else?
my opinion is that alignment is an internal thing, so when i play im considering taking situations where normally a player's alignment would be put into question and we will simply have a short little banter about "your character feels this" or "your character doesnt like this"
they can still behave however, except in the cases where you are playing a paladin or monk or cleric, or anything else code of conduct related
under this system, players no longer need to dictate their actions as if they were playing such a class. its kind of the whole 'to thyself be true' mind set, rather than constantly worrying about the metagame (be it the alignment system itself manifested as an entity for the purpose of dictating alignment) a player in my game could still act freely, but their actions will determine different moods and mind sets the characters will have per my judgment
in other words, their alignment will dictate their actions, rather than their actions determining their alignment
the discussion could get much more in depth as to who and how alignment is judged, for, in an iteration of D&D, alignment is viewed by your patron, and judged by them, so technically if you can clear it with your god, or even if you can hide something from your god, you should be in the clear
but viewing the alignment system itself as an entity kind of undermines the existence of the patron deities in the first place
in fact, that very mindset is the creation of a new religion for pathfinder, being a carbon copy of the One God Omnipotent and Benevolent complex that is the foundation for modern monotheistic religions
forcing players to adhere to such a system forces them to forsake their characters religion and deity and is bad for role playing in my opinion
is my view on the matter flawed? would you as a player like to play in this system? feel free to spitball scenarios at me so we can see how my system works in practice, i welcome criticism and challenges with open arms, as i am trying to perfect this mode of play
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Some interesting ideas there. I agree with you that Alignment is a bit of a problematic system. However, I'm not sure about your solution. I don't think it's the GM's place to tell players what their characters are thinking or feeling. That's really their job, and part of the fun of role-playing.
I'm starting up a new campaign this weekend, and I've been kicking around my own alternate system. I'm not telling the players what their alignments are. The characters will start out as True Neutral unless their chosen class requires a specific alignment. When I update the campaign journal after each session, I'll keep a separate tally of each character's deeds. The players will only find out their current alignment if they try to use an aligned magic item or interact with the gods somehow. I still have to work out some details: know/detect alignment spells will have to be tweaked, and I'll need some fair way to track alignment shifts (I have Ultimate Campaign pre-ordered). To be fair, paladins and clerics will probably get some kind of sign from their patron before their powers get turned off.
Good in theory until you start interacting with spells that impact alignments differently. IE- Chaos Hammer
Im pretty new but alignment is something i debate about all the time outside of game. Can someone who follows a strict personal code be lawful? I generally rule this as yes. People like Omar from The Wire (Only robs drug dealers) break the alignment chart.
I find it most useful to treat a characters alignment as a general guideline to help the player understand how their character views the world and interacts with it. As a GM I would never tell a player that his lawful good character felt a certain way about something, but I would make sure he understood that he was making a decision that was against his alignment, and if those kinds of decisions continued we would need to have a conversation about shifting the characters alignment.
My point being that exceptions exist. Sometimes a paladin, while angry, might do something that is totally against his alignment. That's why the atonement spell exists. Such an incident should be an opportunity for interesting role playing and character development.
I mean, who doesn't enjoy stories of the fallen knight attempting to redeem himself for past actions?
I find it most useful to treat a characters alignment as a general guideline to help the player understand how their character views the world and interacts with it. As a GM I would never tell a player that his lawful good character felt a certain way about something, but I would make sure he understood that he was making a decision that was against his alignment, and if those kinds of decisions continued we would need to have a conversation about shifting the characters alignment.
My point being that exceptions exist. Sometimes a paladin, while angry, might do something that is totally against his alignment. That's why the atonement spell exists. Such an incident should be an opportunity for interesting role playing and character development.
I mean, who doesn't enjoy stories of the fallen knight attempting to redeem himself for past actions?
this is basically what im saying
my players can do whatever they want, but based on their alignment i will tell them how their character feels about it, like do you feel remorse for killing the bandit who jumped you on the street, do you feel he deserved it, do you wish things had gone differentlymaking sure the alignment system doesnt usurp the role of the gods is the most important thing to me
its another issue of how to tell is someone is evil or not, or if i perceive them as evil.. for example, could a paladin lawyer his way of convincing the system that an enemy who was labeled CE was actually evil by way of giving some heroic speech?
i think thats totally acceptable if the patron deity buys it
i think everyone itt is on the same page with me, Will Seitz's point about Sauron being evil, and aligning with him makes you evil is exactly the kind of issue i need to iron out preferably before we start playing
Im pretty new but alignment is something i debate about all the time outside of game. Can someone who follows a strict personal code be lawful? I generally rule this as yes. People like Omar from The Wire (Only robs drug dealers) break the alignment chart.
"Lawful" and legal are two different things. The Mafia, as it was in its heyday, was an extremely "Lawful" alignment wise organization. Of course it was a criminal organization.