Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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I guess dwarves, half-orcs, and planetouched aren't as popular as I thought--I'm surprised, as I thought more PCs have darkvision, even if not specifically planning to counter darkness.
Reading this thread makes me realise we were quite lucky last week when we played this. From the look of the other signups we were going to be playing high subtier, so I brought my only subtier-appropriate character - a level 6 dwarf gunslinger. Even then I was still a bit dubious, because this was my first PFS character, so he's not a particularly good build. It turns out that bringing a dwarf (with darkvision) was a good start. There was also somebody in our group who made the appropriate roll, so we avoided problems at the fountain. We also had someone who successfully identified certain opponents as being susceptible to cold iron, and had the presence of mind to call this out to the rest of the party. I had cold iron bullets (though not in cartridges), so switched to using them.
The one thing we failed miserably on was seeing through the poor helpless waif. I don't think a single player at the table was fooled, but all the characters happily went along with her little schemes until the denouement.
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I ran this weekend for a table of six at the high tier. I had them pre-roll four Will saves, Perception checks and Sense Motive Checks to suspend the urge to metagame.
Quick question for any GM that does this...
How do you deal with Take 10 or Take 20 when you do pre-rolls?
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First, nobody Takes 10 in my region. It's just not part of the player culture. Second, these are passive checks, not active. If the player says they are actively searching an area, I ask them to roll and at that point they can declare a T10/T20. However, if a PC can Take 20 on a Sense Motive then the opponent can Take 20 on a Bluff. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. I think Perception is the only pertinent T10/T20 skill mentioned. Obviously you can't Take 20 on a Will save. If the player specifically says they're T10/T20 when appropriate then I'll accommodate them.
The whole purpose of collecting pre-rolls is to dampen the urge to meta-game, which is the bane of this hobby. How many times have you seen a player have an idea, roll poorly on a check, then two other disinterested players at the table suddenly have the same idea and want to roll as well? Anyhow, collecting pre-rolls has served me well. Suspension of disbelief in some games is vital to preserving the creepy atmosphere. Outside of combat, as soon as you call for a Sense Motive or Will Save to be made in the open you may as well pull the curtain back and show everyone where the Wizard of Oz is pulling the levers.
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Oddly enough, my last table was able to unmask Vaga through sheer sleuthing. The started asking "Tilly" how long she had been at Ostergarde. She didn't know, "A long time" to an 8 year old anyway. Hmmm. Are her clothes wet from the storm? No, they are dry. Did we find her tracks at the front door? No, you found many medium-sized booted feet and bipedal clawed feet but no small-sized tracks. She's been here awhile then. How long can a human live without food or water? 7-10 days without water. Any sign she's gone to the bathroom in the closet or in her clothes? [laughing] No. The bard then used the Antagonize feat on her. "You haven't been here long at all. You're a little liar, you're deceiving us and we don't believe you!" "F#&@%0#!!!" [pulls out a poisoned dagger and stabs the bard]. The players really enjoyed that part.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Doug,
At one of my tables at Who's Yer Son, the party paladin tried detect evil on Tilly. She came out clean, of course.
Then the sorcerer surreptitiously cast infernal healing on her, and the paladin checked again. Still did not radiate evil.
That's when they knew, in character, that Tilly was not what she appeared to be.
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Geez. Your players sound awesome. Out of 3 tables, only 1 has fought her at the closet. The other two fought her in the basement.
One of my tables left her in the closet against her wishes with one of the PC's familiars. Then they rushed back down when the wizard felt a lot of pain through her empathic link and found both were missing. They found where she was through casting Locate Object on the dead cat's collar. (Stupid Diviners...)
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First, nobody Takes 10 in my region. It's just not part of the player culture. Second, these are passive checks, not active.
As far as I am aware there is no such rule on distinction of active and passive checks for take 10/20, so I am not sure where you are getting that from. Can you point me in the right direction?
Also this particular scenario I am more concenred about Take 10 on the sense motive and take 10 or 20 on perception checks.
Take 20 is very common on perception checks locally in particular.
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First, nobody Takes 10 in my region. It's just not part of the player culture. Second, these are passive checks, not active.As far as I am aware there is no such rule on distinction of active and passive checks for take 10/20, so I am not sure where you are getting that from. Can you point me in the right direction?
Also this particular scenario I am more concenred about Take 10 on the sense motive and take 10 or 20 on perception checks.
Take 20 is very common on perception checks locally in particular.
When a character is in immediate danger or distracted they cannot Take 10. I would consider that a passive check. When they have time to consider the challenge without danger/distraction they are active. Fair enough?
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Also keep in mind:
Taking 20 means you are trying until you get it right, and it assumes that you fail many times before succeeding. Taking 20 takes 20 times as long as making a single check would take (usually 2 minutes for a skill that takes 1 round or less to perform).
Since taking 20 assumes that your character will fail many times before succeeding, your character would automatically incur any penalties for failure before he or she could complete the task (hence why it is generally not allowed with skills that carry such penalties). Common “take 20” skills include Disable Device (when used to open locks), Escape Artist, and Perception (when attempting to find traps).
Taking 20 means you're doing something over and over, failing repeatedly, until you finally get it right. That also means that it's not something you can do on checks on you only get one chance at, such as opposed rolls; that includes Bluff, Sense Motive, or Perception for noticing a hiding enemy before they attack. You can do it for searching a room, but make sure the players know that tossing a single room could take 30 minutes to an hour, and it could take days if they're going to thoroughly search the entire manor.
When I run this at ChimaeraCon, I think I'll have the players fill out a note card with their saves / skill checks / etc. and ask them whether they want to take 10 or roll for their passive skill checks. One thing I'm on the fence about is having them pre-roll skill checks or rolling for them behind the GM screen... I know players don't like it when the GM rolls for them, but on the other hand, I know several players who will meta-game and be aware of the fact that they have a bad skill check coming up.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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You can do it for searching a room, but make sure the players know that tossing a single room could take 30 minutes to an hour, and it could take days if they're going to thoroughly search the entire manor.
I find it ironic when someone explicitly contradicts a rule that they just quoted in the same post.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Funny thing is rather than the 'take 10' I just have people roll at random.
"Make a perception check."
"Um... 5?"
*cue rolling by other players*
*point to whoever rolled highest* "You notice that <whatever harmless effect I want to include>."
Or from another game.
"Ok, Make a Will save."
"All right! 20! What did I save against!"
"You saved against the GM asking for random will saves to keep you on your toes."
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1) Don't tell them what the rolls are for... and have them roll lots. Have them roll 6 or a dozen, then use the 5th one. Also, I tell my players that I use the numbers for (amoung other things) deciding which random player to target with an attack. Monster needs to chose? He picks the guy with the bigger number in blank #6.
That's probably a good idea, although some players might accuse me of intentionally choosing a bad roll when I want them to fail -- and I might be tempted to do that, but on the other hand, I don't want to be the kind of GM who punishes a player for being good at something and forces a paladin to take a 1 on his Will save when detecting evil.
2) Taking 20 on Perception "You can do it for searching a room, but make sure the players know that tossing a single room could take 30 minutes to an hour, and it could take days if they're going to thoroughly search the entire manor." Why would "tossing a room" take 30 minutes? A perception check takes a move action. You can do 2 in a round. So, a careful glance around a room, (Perception check from the doorway) with a Take 20 would take 1 minute.
One of the problems with the rules on Perception is that it doesn't indicate how large an area you can search with a single Perception check. When you walk into a room and make a perception check, if you roll well, does that mean you did so well that you can immediately see the tripwire in front of the door, the secret door on the wall, the trap door hidden under the bed, the fake bottom of the drawer in the table, and the gems stuffed inside the bed's pillow? And that's just for a bedroom; if you're searching a ballroom, does that also mean you see the hidden compartment on the back of a pillar and the hidden message written underneath the staircase...?
For rooms that have things hidden in them, it's not even possible to find some things unless you're actively in the room examining objects. When players walk into a room, I'll give them a check to see things that are visible from the doorway, but otherwise they have to explicitly tell me what they're searching or go through every square in the room and individually search it. If they're taking a 20 on making perception checks to search every square in an entire room, that can quickly add up to over 30 minutes searching for moderately-sized rooms. In scenarios where time isn't of the essence I'll hand wave it away, but there are some situations where every minute counts.
Furthermore, if you just let players make a single check or take 20 to find everything in a room as soon as they walk in, that's a serious blow to the usefulness of class abilities like Trap Spotter. Who would ever take that when you can just glance from the doorway and find all the traps, anyway?
Post monster ate my post.
Please take this take10/20 discussion to one of the 800 other threads on this subject. No one needs to hear it again.
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Guys the T10/T20 comments are interesting, but they are the same ones we've read in previous threads specifically for that topic... perhaps you guys can re-hash one of those and leave this thread for the scenario?
Soooo getting this thread back to it's intended purpose ... was the map issue at the beginning ever sorted out? Is it correct?? Do we need to change it while we are drawing it ou? What work arounds are there for it..
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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Guys the T10/T20 comments are interesting, but they are the same ones we've read in previous threads specifically for that topic... perhaps you guys can re-hash one of those and leave this thread for the scenario?
Soooo getting this thread back to it's intended purpose ... was the map issue at the beginning ever sorted out? Is it correct?? Do we need to change it while we are drawing it ou? What work arounds are there for it..
Also, why are maps like this perpetually on an angle? It seems like at least the above levels of Ostergarde have no real reason to be positioned like that, except to make squares difficult to draw.
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Also, why are maps like this perpetually on an angle? It seems like at least the above levels of Ostergarde have no real reason to be positioned like that, except to make squares difficult to draw.Guys the T10/T20 comments are interesting, but they are the same ones we've read in previous threads specifically for that topic... perhaps you guys can re-hash one of those and leave this thread for the scenario?
Soooo getting this thread back to it's intended purpose ... was the map issue at the beginning ever sorted out? Is it correct?? Do we need to change it while we are drawing it ou? What work arounds are there for it..
Amen ... as map drawers .. can we go on strike until they stop angleing the @#$@#$ maps? lol
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was the map issue at the beginning ever sorted out? Is it correct?? Do we need to change it while we are drawing it ou? What work arounds are there for it..
According to the Author and Mark the map scale is correct.
Edit: And my question on Take 10 and 20 Rule was not the rules themselves, just how GMs were taking those into account in the prerolls they were asking for Perception and Sense motive with this Scenario.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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Amen ... as map drawers .. can we go on strike until they stop angleing the @#$@#$ maps? lolAlso, why are maps like this perpetually on an angle? It seems like at least the above levels of Ostergarde have no real reason to be positioned like that, except to make squares difficult to draw.Guys the T10/T20 comments are interesting, but they are the same ones we've read in previous threads specifically for that topic... perhaps you guys can re-hash one of those and leave this thread for the scenario?
Soooo getting this thread back to it's intended purpose ... was the map issue at the beginning ever sorted out? Is it correct?? Do we need to change it while we are drawing it ou? What work arounds are there for it..
So I just remade the manor map by rotating it to the right 90 degrees and overlayed it on a new grid. The result is that you still have slanted walls on the right half, but the left half is square -- which I think makes it easier to draw. I'll finish up the second level and add them to the GM shared prep folder.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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Rotating the grid to align with room and corridor walls forces hallways that are currently one diagonal (7') wide to become either 5' wide or 10' wide. Which way do you go, to keep within the spirit of PFS?
I kept the 5' hallways 5' wide...if there were any. I actually don't think there are. There's a 5' wide section of stairs, and a narrow passageway around the bedrooms. But there's no 5' wide hallways. There's a couple of spots where it's a square wide for a turn or something like that, and for those I did maintain them as just 1 square wide. I used the 1, 2, 1 method (or 5', 10', 5') of counting for the diagonal sections. So the 3 square diagonal main hall is 4 squares (or 20') wide. This way the potentially large creature in there has a bit of breathing room, as do the players.
Do you perhaps mean 45 degrees? ;)
Probably. I'm a General Studies major, so the only math I do is when I'm playing Pathfinder or otherwise being an unproductive member of society :P
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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It is in the shared prep folder under Day of the Demon.
Forgive my lack of cartography skills -- it's an MS Paint original.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Take it to a different thread guys.
Done! Hope folks find it helpful. :)
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I've made a post relating to this one about the Run as Written rule, which a lot of posts here seem to be violating.
I don't want to derail this thread with talk that isn't directly related to the scenario, so please comment there if wish to discuss it.
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... For once I'd like to encounter a cute little girl that was just a cute little girl in need of help...
Say, now that you mention it, there was a real little girl in need of help in an adventure once.
She was in the opening scene of River of Blood, one of the first adventures written for Living Greyhawk by Erik Mona as I recall.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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We finished this one up last night with an eventual babau ~TPK, so I wanted to come in and read up on what we'd missed. The ending here sounds amazing! I'll have to read the scenario when it frees up next season.
Anyway, I see a lot of posts waggling fingers at those poor PC's who just couldn't think to cast a Daylight spell. The babaus have Dispel Magic as an at-will ability. They hung back and blasted us until all of our countermeasures were gone, and then moved in for the kill. Which was pretty demoralizing, as we had specifically organized ourselves for this eventuality. A half-orc barbarian is certainly going to win out in this fight, but if your PCs are designed to work around weaknesses using spells or scrolls of darkvision, this seems to be a ready whirlpool of TPK. I actually felt penalized for being prepared.
As a teaser for Season 5, this taught me that I will want to roll a paladin with native darkvision. Which I guess is a good lesson to learn, even if it took a wasted chronicle to do it.
Final note: This scenario seemed fun! I'm very sad some apparently optional babaus took an interesting final encounter away from us.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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As a teaser for Season 5, this taught me that I will want to roll a paladin with native darkvision. Which I guess is a good lesson to learn, even if it took a wasted chronicle to do it.
Ugh. The "arms race" begins to heat up, I see. [sarcasm] And, gee, I'm so looking forward to a Season 5 filled with half-orc paladins.[/sarcasm]
Is there a reason we are trying to turn this (or any scenario) into a killer? I know it's possible to make the babaus super-smart, tactical geniuses, but is it necessary?
For instance, if someone had Darkvision cast on them early in the scenario (it lasts a minimum of 5 hours, considering the caster level necessary to cast it), then why is a babau even considering casting Dispel Magic on the person who has it? The easiest reason I can come up with is GM metagaming, which is just as detrimental to the game as player metagaming.
Ease back on the throttle, folks...
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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What Drogon said.
I want to play a tiefling/aasimar/half orc/fetchling* because I can and it fits the concept. Not because of "Oh crap, I need darkvision/immunity to charm person/whatever the latest arms race is."
Dexios has the fiend sight feat because I thought 120' darkvision would be cool, then went 'eh, why not?' for the second feat. Likewise if I play a tiefling shadowdancer, the idea of 150' darkvision just struck me for the novelty.
*
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We finished this one up last night with an eventual babau ~TPK, so I wanted to come in and read up on what we'd missed. The ending here sounds amazing! I'll have to read the scenario when it frees up next season.
Anyway, I see a lot of posts waggling fingers at those poor PC's who just couldn't think to cast a Daylight spell. The babaus have Dispel Magic as an at-will ability. They hung back and blasted us until all of our countermeasures were gone, and then moved in for the kill. Which was pretty demoralizing, as we had specifically organized ourselves for this eventuality. A half-orc barbarian is certainly going to win out in this fight, but if your PCs are designed to work around weaknesses using spells or scrolls of darkvision, this seems to be a ready whirlpool of TPK. I actually felt penalized for being prepared.
As a teaser for Season 5, this taught me that I will want to roll a paladin with native darkvision. Which I guess is a good lesson to learn, even if it took a wasted chronicle to do it.
Final note: This scenario seemed fun! I'm very sad some apparently optional babaus took an interesting final encounter away from us.
The tactics specifically do not list the Babau's casting dispel magic and specifically list what they do. Now having a Babau cast dispel magic on someone who obviously has a bunch of buffs or whatever, should the Babau be having a specifically hard time against them, seems reasonable. But standing back and raining down dispel magic on the players until they are totally debuffed seems like a fairly egregious change in tactics, which shouldn't be happening.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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The tactics specifically do not list the Babau's casting dispel magic and specifically list what they do. Now having a Babau cast dispel magic on someone who obviously has a bunch of buffs or whatever, should the Babau be having a specifically hard time against them, seems reasonable. But standing back and raining down dispel magic on the players until they are totally debuffed seems like a fairly egregious change in tactics, which shouldn't be happening.
Well, they specifically targeted the Daylight, which makes a lot of sense from the monster viewpoint. Light gets rid of their greatest advantage and they should always be focused on eliminating it, given their native abilities. I gave the impression that they Dispelled everything, and that was an exaggeration.
I totally agree with the way the babaus were run, it just seemed like an overly lethal encounter.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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The tactics specifically do not list the Babau's casting dispel magic and specifically list what they do. Now having a Babau cast dispel magic on someone who obviously has a bunch of buffs or whatever, should the Babau be having a specifically hard time against them, seems reasonable. But standing back and raining down dispel magic on the players until they are totally debuffed seems like a fairly egregious change in tactics, which shouldn't be happening.We finished this one up last night with an eventual babau ~TPK, so I wanted to come in and read up on what we'd missed. The ending here sounds amazing! I'll have to read the scenario when it frees up next season.
Anyway, I see a lot of posts waggling fingers at those poor PC's who just couldn't think to cast a Daylight spell. The babaus have Dispel Magic as an at-will ability. They hung back and blasted us until all of our countermeasures were gone, and then moved in for the kill. Which was pretty demoralizing, as we had specifically organized ourselves for this eventuality. A half-orc barbarian is certainly going to win out in this fight, but if your PCs are designed to work around weaknesses using spells or scrolls of darkvision, this seems to be a ready whirlpool of TPK. I actually felt penalized for being prepared.
As a teaser for Season 5, this taught me that I will want to roll a paladin with native darkvision. Which I guess is a good lesson to learn, even if it took a wasted chronicle to do it.
Final note: This scenario seemed fun! I'm very sad some apparently optional babaus took an interesting final encounter away from us.
Exactly this.
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I ran the babaus as selfish and without any use of teamwork, they are CE demons after all. One of them dispelled a spider climb a party member had because he had nothing else to do, and they only used their teleport to escape from a web spell. If there was an enemy in range of their spears, they'd go for the kill, not dispel magic a party buff.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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The tactics specifically do not list the Babau's casting dispel magic and specifically list what they do. Now having a Babau cast dispel magic on someone who obviously has a bunch of buffs or whatever, should the Babau be having a specifically hard time against them, seems reasonable. But standing back and raining down dispel magic on the players until they are totally debuffed seems like a fairly egregious change in tactics, which shouldn't be happening.Well, they specifically targeted the Daylight, which makes a lot of sense from the monster viewpoint. Light gets rid of their greatest advantage and they should always be focused on eliminating it, given their native abilities. I gave the impression that they Dispelled everything, and that was an exaggeration.
I totally agree with the way the babaus were run, it just seemed like an overly lethal encounter.
Darkness would have countered (not actually countered, but more or less negated) daylight as well, and since darkness is specifically called out in the tactics as something they're supposed to do I don't see why they would have gambled with the dispel.
Regardless, they are supposed to open with that, and then go to combat.
Round 1. Darkness, maybe one or two teleport in.
Round 2 to N. Melee combat.
So unless something the PCs do is preventing this strategy from working, I don't see the need to constantly dispel daylight. The babaus can just flank to get sneak attack if the targets aren't flatfooted/blinded. It's not a huge priority for them IMO.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Darkness would have countered (not actually countered, but more or less negated) daylight
Magical light sources only increase the light level in an area if they are of a higher spell level than darkness.
Darkness is 2nd level, while daylight is 3rd, so daylight successfully raises the light level in the area.
How much does it raise said light level?
You touch an object when you cast this spell, causing the object to shed bright light in a 60-foot radius.
So daylight sets the light level to "bright". Depending on which effect (darkness or daylight) you apply "first", you either get "down one step, then up to bright" or "up to bright, then down one step to normal".
But what if they cast more darkness effects?
This spell does not stack with itself.
So the light level will never go any further down.
If they want to "beat" daylight, they're going to need either dispel magic or deeper darkness (or Heighten Spell, if they were actual casters instead of using an SLA).
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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Ugh. The "arms race" begins to heat up, I see. [sarcasm] And, gee, I'm so looking forward to a Season 5 filled with half-orc paladins.[/sarcasm]
It was a joke among our group when we saw what the focus of Season 5 would be that we should make the All-Paladin Avengers. It became a little less of a joke after last night!
I think the Worldwound is an interesting location but there's a reason my bomb-tossing alchemist hasn't gone to visit. Knowing that the region features demons is going to convince players to make some important character choices, and I think that all of us GM's are going to have to get ready for it. I'm not one to pick up Favored Enemy: Human because of scenario statistics or anything, but who wants to be penalized for not paying attention to the season venue?
If there's any sort of "arms race," I see it starting at the choice of the Worldwound. Being upset at players responding to that choice seems a little unfair.
(Sorry for the S5 tangent.)
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I became very disappointed with this scenario upon learning that the babaus, the toughest and most time-intensive fight, are an optional fight. Even worse, there's even a babau at Tier 3-4. Is PFS seriously telling level 3 PCs to bring 3rd-level spells in order to survive?
I thought PFS had matured from this sort of Josh Frost-era crap, but apparently I was wrong. Apparently it's okay for the the difficulty of a scenario to be dependent on whether the party faces the optional encounter.
PFS is already a hack-and-slash campaign, with little time for much else. Having optional fights is bad campaign design.
Shame, PFS. Shame.
-Matt
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As a teaser for Season 5, this taught me that I will want to roll a paladin with native darkvision. Which I guess is a good lesson to learn, even if it took a wasted chronicle to do it.
Ugh. The "arms race" begins to heat up, I see. [sarcasm] And, gee, I'm so looking forward to a Season 5 filled with half-orc paladins.[/sarcasm]
Is there a reason we are trying to turn this (or any scenario) into a killer? I know it's possible to make the babaus super-smart, tactical geniuses, but is it necessary?
For instance, if someone had Darkvision cast on them early in the scenario (it lasts a minimum of 5 hours, considering the caster level necessary to cast it), then why is a babau even considering casting Dispel Magic on the person who has it? The easiest reason I can come up with is GM metagaming, which is just as detrimental to the game as player metagaming.
Ease back on the throttle, folks...
The babaus don't have spellcraft (quite weird for something with dispel magic, but true nonetheless), so I've only been having them dispel daylight, since they have no idea about any other spells without obvious effecrs (like darkvision), but they certainly can see that daylight is beating their darkness. In both cases where I dispelled a daylight, the easing up of damage pressure from the necessary dispels allowed the party to get people back on their feet, heal up to a good situation, and overcome the babaus. So far, zero deaths, including two groups playing way up (APL between 4.5 and 5). We'll see how my 3-4 run goes this weekend, but I expect it to be a blow-out for the party.
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I became very disappointed with this scenario upon learning that the babaus, the toughest and most time-intensive fight, are an optional fight. I thought PFS had matured from this sort of Josh Frost-era crap, but apparently I was wrong. Apparently it's okay for the the difficulty of a scenario to be dependent on whether the party faces the optional encounter.
PFS is already a hack-and-slash campaign, with little time for much else. Having optional fights is bad campaign design.
Shame, PFS. Shame.
-Matt
To be fair, the gargoyle is tougher if the PCs don't have a disable. I don't think any of the groups I ran so far could have beat the gargoyle, but they bypassed it with a knowledge check. If the babaus were removed, for a party that makes the Knowledge check, the adventure would be basically exploring a creepy manor with an easy fight right at the beginning and an unlosable (Vaga can't do enough damage to win, even the high tier Vaga against level 3s and 4s) fight at the end.