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maybe he was only 4th level? or he just didn't think of it (not that that would every happen to me ;) )Bard rolled 1 higher...Walter, what archetype was the bard? If it was a vanilla bard, he should have been able to take 20 on a knowledge check once a day, and since travel to Ostergarde takes more than a day and this is the only knowledge check to roll that day, it would have been a no-brainer to use it. That's how the two bards in my stories trounced the check.
Certainly possible, but then the bard was playing up a lot, I suppose.
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Playing up in a season 4? yeah, I've seen this a lot.
In fact, a good friend of mine just played this last night, with 2 people at the table playing 4th levels. He was lamenting that the table voted to play up (3 for, him against) - so he was the 4th level Oracle at a 4 person table playing sub-tier 6-7 in 4-EX... guess what? he died. (and the 4th level Pre-Gen cleric too.). I think he said he lasted 2 rounds against "the winged one".
so we got to ask him at lunch today - "did you learn anything?"
yep, (4 players + season 4 + playing up = death)
I would be surprised if they couldn't have won the 4-player version even with two level 4s if they made the Knowledge check. The group of 4, 5, 5, 5, 6 I ran beat the 6 player version with some pretty unoptimized characters and composition. Which leads to my side-tangent--I think it's amazingly awesome how much you guys made the Knowledge check count in this scenario. Kudos Larry and Mark!
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Bard rolled 1 higher...Walter, what archetype was the bard? If it was a vanilla bard, he should have been able to take 20 on a knowledge check once a day, and since travel to Ostergarde takes more than a day and this is the only knowledge check to roll that day, it would have been a no-brainer to use it. That's how the two bards in my stories trounced the check.
Unsure, but he was level 5 so if he didn't have an archetype he would have had it. It was the first time that particular player was at one of my tables, so I'd never seen the character before.
The player has been at the game as long as I have, however, so I assume he would have used it if he had it :P
For those of the curious: party levels as I recall them were 5, 5, 6, 7, and 7.
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I would be surprised if they couldn't have won the 4-player version even with two level 4s if they made the Knowledge check. The group of 4, 5, 5, 5, 6 I ran beat the 6 player version with some pretty unoptimized characters and composition. Which leads to my side-tangent--I think it's amazingly awesome how much you guys made the Knowledge check count in this scenario. Kudos Larry and Mark!Playing up in a season 4? yeah, I've seen this a lot.
In fact, a good friend of mine just played this last night, with 2 people at the table playing 4th levels. He was lamenting that the table voted to play up (3 for, him against) - so he was the 4th level Oracle at a 4 person table playing sub-tier 6-7 in 4-EX... guess what? he died. (and the 4th level Pre-Gen cleric too.). I think he said he lasted 2 rounds against "the winged one".
so we got to ask him at lunch today - "did you learn anything?"
yep, (4 players + season 4 + playing up = death)
I'm guessing they didn't make the Knowledge check. I think he said they were:
Oracle(4), Cleric(4 Pre-Gen), Witch(?), and a Ftr/Rog(?) type.
so maybe not much Knowledge skills? Plus, they might not have known the Knowledge roll was important (I know we didn't when I played it, and I still don't know what exactly you are talking about. Does a high knowledge roll side-step the encounter or something?).
Yes, if you make the knowledge check (DC 30 but with a +5 bonus, using the books from the briefing) you learn the passphrase which causes the gargoyle encounter not to trigger.
I'm guessing that cleric you listed actually wasn't a pregen, as the pregen would have been able to be the level 7 Cleric in a 6-7.
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Yeah, I pointed out to my friend that the Pregen cleric could have been the 7th, as they played at sub-tier 6-7. He assured me the player had used the 4th level - perhaps that was what they had printed out? or perhaps the player wanted to put the chronical on her PC when she reached 4th level? (6-7 money and access is a great boost to a 4th level PC). that is the lure of playing up after all.
Wow, that latter possibility is greedy and incredibly callous towards the other PCs--I hadn't even considered someone would do that, but it's certainly possible.
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Had a Tier 3-4 group with 6 players this morning. No one had any counter to darkness. They were slaughtered in the optional encounter, no one had the means to recover their bodies or pay for a resurrection. This was my 2nd TPK w/ perma-death ever. I felt like I pulled the punch last time I ran this, so I tried doing it by the book and I don't feel much better. They did concede that a game without the risk of death is not worth playing. On the other hand without any meaningful way to fight back it was like they were spectators watching their characters die without any control over the outcome. They managed to inflict 1 HP of damage on the babau. I'm running this again in a week, so here's hoping that word spreads and the next group is more paranoid.
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There are a least two posts suggesting that level 3/4 players were out-voted, i.e. forced to play up. I just do not understand this process. A player should never be forced to play up. If the party decides to and you object, I recommend walking away from the table. YMMV
At a small game day with pushy players, it may be the choice between playing up or not playing at all.
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At a small game day with pushy players, it may be the choice between playing up or not playing at all.
While that may be true, it becomes a player's choice. If I had a level 3 PC and was "forced" to play tier 6-7, I would be hard pressed to complain that I died. By now, it is no secret that the challenge is a tad higher in season three+ scenarios. Players should be advised as to the dangers of playing up. After that, it is on them. I do not encourage PC deaths, as a matter of fact, I think they are bad more often than not, but when a player CHOOSES to make an already challenging session moreso, they have to take responsibility for said decision. To complain about the scenario afterwards is ridiculous, IMO...
As my friend said, "Play up or go home" and he'd already missed two other game days due to not haveing PC level issues.
...I have no problem if said player focuses on complaining about having to repeatedly play up or walk. That would be no fun either. I hold the organizer responsible for ensuring that players are not routinely forced to decide to risk playing up vs. going home.
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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As a GM I give the players a vote. If there is any character at the table who should be playing in the low sub-tier he gets 100% of the vote. This encounter (and others like it) is a lot of the reason for that policy of mine. Low sub-tier characters should never be forced into a position where they can't compete. I think it is the "I only play high" guys who should be doing the walking if they don't want to play at a certain sub-tier, not the low.
That said, an argument I've seen used many times to good effect on the low sub-tier guy: "We will incur 100% of the risk of your dying. If we can't protect you, we will pay the cost of your raise dead and restorations." That argument is genuine, and usually works.
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So I ran this a third time. I was sure it was going to be 3-4, but it wound up being a just over 4.5 APL group of 5 playing up again, with no power builds. It was touch and go with the babaus, especially in the beginning, when the wizard rolled really low and lost daylight to a failed concentration, but I rolled terribly on a few dispels, so they recovered from an extremely hard first round and annihilated the fight (two paladins). Once again, the howlers were super-easy and Vaga was incapable of presenting a threat, so with a successful knowledge check to remove the gargoyle, the optional babau encounter was the only challenge. If I had skipped the optional, this group would have cakewalked. As was, they won handily, with the only consumable used being the wizard's YotSL boon to recover and expended spell as a standard action (to get back daylight).
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My third time as well last night. 5 players, all level 7. Two real characters, three pre-gens. One half-orc paladin, beyond that no means to fight in darkness. I tried to drop some hints, but no one picked up on them. There was a new player at the table who was given a choice between the pre-gen rogue and cleric. He'd never played Pathfinder before and decided that the rogue would be easier to run.
The encounter with Vaga was very interesting. When the PCs encountered "Tilly" both paladins (the half-orc and the pre-gen) simultaneously used detect evil. The pre-gen player said "She's evil!" and without further ado added "I smite her!". I didn't even roll initiative. I described how the paladin's blade slashed open the harmless child's shoulder and her scream of agony, followed by a seizure, contortion of the spine and feet rising off the ground. All players had pre-rolled Will Saves, Perceptions and Sense Motives and for me. No one saw through her. She spoke in 'tongues' [Abyssal] as she seized, her wide open eyes rolling back into her skull, begging the paladin to complete the act of murder. It stopped them in their tracks. No one had the means to perform an exorcism ("Yah, it's in the 1st Edition Player's Handbook. Good luck with that.") so after healing her they tied her up and left her in the stable. Mu-ha-ha-ha.
It was a great fight in the optional encounter. The PCs were able to kill 2 of the 3 babaus but then were running on fumes. The half-orc paladin was only on his feet due to ferocity, no channels left. I paused the encounter and had a conversation with them about their options, presenting the 'novel' concept of running away. I knew the pre-gen wizard had a dimension door memorized; but he couldn't take all of them out of there. I left the decision to the players, but I did suggest that there were two PCs who were dead weight in the fight and two who were actually doing damage. Accepting this cold logic as any wizard would, the pre-gen paladin and pre-gen rogue were left behind. The babau finished off the paladin as the rogue fled for her life back up to the master bedroom--where "Tilly" was waiting for her. "Have you found my mommy and daddy?" she asked innocently. It wasn't completely unexpected, but drove home how well they had been played. Well done, Larry.
The rogue and paladin died graphically. The survivors healed, rested and returned to avenge their companions. They were able to finish the last babau and surprise Vaga in the midst of wiring the rogue & paladin's bodies together in a Greek wrestling scene. She annoyed them but after the babau it was an anti-climactic fight. All the players agreed that the scenario was super-tough but very exciting.
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My third time as well last night. 5 players, all level 7. Two real characters, three pre-gens. One half-orc paladin, beyond that no means to fight in darkness. I tried to drop some hints, but no one picked up on them.
I think this is the real clincher of it, since the babaus (particularly the singleton in 3-4 who can't get a flank) are weaklings without being in darkness when others can't see. I consider any party of that level that doesn't have a plan for deeper darkness (let alone regular darkness) to be unprepared. Same for inability to deal with invisibility or flying creatures with ranged attacks who can avoid melee unless you can also fly. All of my groups were completely unprepared to fight demons (other than Hell's Gavel) due to the intro, during which they decided devils would be their opponents. They always had someone who rolled Knowledge(Planes) and rolled on the Devil type successfully, so I gave them the abilities generic to devils, which of course includes See in Darkness. The one group that didn't have daylight before was reminded to grab it by this, though they had several ways to get Darkvision anyway (they were more afraid of deeper darkness). I was going to run this again last Sunday, but the gamestore changed its hours for PAX East, so it'll be April 7th instead. Probably my last run for a while. We'll see if anyone dies.
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Can someone provide me with a link to an end-all be-all darkness adjudicating guide? Or a diagram? I'm thinking a Venn diagram with light, darkness, daylight, deeper darkness, and heighten daylight in prevailing light conditions of darkness, dim light, normal light, and bright light would solve the issue.
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Can someone provide me with a link to an end-all be-all darkness adjudicating guide? Or a diagram? I'm thinking a Venn diagram with light, darkness, daylight, deeper darkness, and heighten daylight in prevailing light conditions of darkness, dim light, normal light, and bright light would solve the issue.
I've gotten to the bottom of it in an old thread. Basically, daylight has a special clause, so let's look at it without daylight for a moment:
Any darkness spell requires a higher level light spell to both beat it and continue to shine light. So to shine through a darkness, you need a 3rd spell level or heightened higher light spell (such as clerical continual flame) while shining through deeper darkness requires a 4th spell level or heightened higher light spell (requires heighten in other words).
Daylight has a special escape clause that says that areas of overlapping daylight and deeper darkness return to prevailing condition, which means that technically heightening daylight is useless (continual flame is a better bet).
So here's the Venn Diagram:
Prevailing Bright Light--Darkness puts you to normal light unless there is a 3rd level or higher light spell present, in which case bright light. Deeper Darkness puts you to dim light unless there is a daylight or any 4th level or higher light spell present, in which case bright light.
Prevailing Normal Light--Darkness puts you to dim light unless there is a 3rd level or higher light spell present, in which case normal light or whatever the light spell gives, whichever is better. Deeper Darkness puts you to darkness unless there is a daylight, in which case it goes back to normal light, or any 4th level or higher light spell present, in which case it goes to normal light or the light spell, whichever is better.
Prevailing Dim Light--Darkness puts you to darkness unless there is a 3rd level or higher light spell present, in which case dim light or whatever the light spell gives, whichever is better. Deeper Darkness puts you to supernatural darkness unless there is a daylight, in which case it goes back to dim light, or any 4th level or higher light spell present, in which case it goes to dim light or the light spell, whichever is better.
Prevailing Darkness--Darkness doesn't change the light level, but it does prevent nonmagical light sources from helping unless there is a 3rd level or higher light spell present, in which case whatever the light spell gives. Deeper Darkness puts you to supernatural darkness unless there is a daylight, in which case it goes back to regular darkness, or any 4th level or higher light spell present, in which case it goes to the light spell.
Other fun facts--light spells and darkness spells can be used to counterspell or dispel others of the same or lower level if you can target the object that is the target of the other spell (usually by touching it).
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Can someone provide me with a link to an end-all be-all darkness adjudicating guide? Or a diagram? I'm thinking a Venn diagram with light, darkness, daylight, deeper darkness, and heighten daylight in prevailing light conditions of darkness, dim light, normal light, and bright light would solve the issue.
You'd think so, but the rules on darkness in general are a complicated, confusing mess that manage to confound some of the best DMs I know.
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It also bears mentioning that a non-magical source of light can be super-useful when encountering magical darkness. Non-magical lights change the ambient lighting. So, between a sunrod and a daylight spell, you should be fine.
Yes, they do change the ambient lighting and are crucial if you plan to counter deeper darkness with daylight rather than heightened continual flame, and I can tell you know this because of the way you phrased it, but for anyone else reading so they don't get confused--you do need both the sunrod and the daylight spell, not just a sunrod alone (because deeper darkness snuffs out your nonmagical light sources).
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Ok, thank you.
So it's a good idea to cast daylight on a sunrod or torch.
Daylight on an active sunrod will give you light even if the enemy heightens their darkness spell for some reason. It is a solid choice.
Barring heighten hijinx on the enemy's part, heightened to 4th continual flame will just flat out beat any of the typical darkness magic.
You probably don't want to be an adventurer for long with anything other than those two if you can avoid it (unless you have 8th level sun domain aura or something like that). Given only 2 PP for an oil of daylight that any character can use, I blame the PCs at 6-7 if they don't have one.
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Hey fellow GMs, I just read a couple of reviews on this scenario from two players last Saturday. Understandably they were cheesed about their characters dying, but the salt in the wound was they weren't able to get raised. Why didn't I allow them to get raised? Because I didn't believe the Pathfinder Society would miss them until the time limit had expired. The trip to Ostergarde had to take at least a week, probably more like 2 weeks. So the PCs travel there and don't return. It's a week there and a week to get back. At what point does the Society think "They're overdue, we should send a second team to see what has happened."? I believe that wouldn't happen within the 9 day window for a raise dead. I'm interested in arguments to the contrary.
The PCs were in between 3rd and 5th level. None of them could afford a resurrection. Three of them were with the Shadow Lodge and I pointed out they could get their bodies retrieved, but they could not afford the raise dead and associated restorations.
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Hey fellow GMs, I just read a couple of reviews on this scenario from two players last Saturday. Understandably they were cheesed about their characters dying, but the salt in the wound was they weren't able to get raised. Why didn't I allow them to get raised? Because I didn't believe the Pathfinder Society would miss them until the time limit had expired. The trip to Ostergarde had to take at least a week, probably more like 2 weeks. So the PCs travel there and don't return. It's a week there and a week to get back. At what point does the Society think "They're overdue, we should send a second team to see what has happened."? I believe that wouldn't happen within the 9 day window for a raise dead. I'm interested in arguments to the contrary.
The PCs were in between 3rd and 5th level. None of them could afford a resurrection. Three of them were with the Shadow Lodge and I pointed out they could get their bodies retrieved, but they could not afford the raise dead and associated restorations.
Yeah, if they TPKed then they needed to pay for an expedition to get the body anyway, plain and simple. When I read those reviews, I figured they matched your description, and I thought you had denied the raise dead for a different but equally legitimate reason (since Vaga won, she would have taxidermied the PCs as part of her whole diorama, and the whole taxidermy process would leave the body in no condition for a raise).
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Doug, I was under the impression that campaign rules were that if the characters paid the 5 PP for the "have your body recovered by a rescue team" boon, they would be able to have a Raise Dead cast on them. I think you would be within your rights to charge 5 PP extra for this service, as they are not in a town of 5000 residents or more. Thus, the cost of a Body Retrieval plus Raise Dead would be 26 PP.
However, if the scenario was not a TPK, I believe you should have allowed the dead characters to spend the 16 PP + 5 PP = 21 PP (for being outside a town of 5000 people) for a Raise Dead. In this case, a traveling priest performs the ceremony.
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Hey fellow GMs, I just read a couple of reviews on this scenario from two players last Saturday. Understandably they were cheesed about their characters dying, but the salt in the wound was they weren't able to get raised. Why didn't I allow them to get raised? Because I didn't believe the Pathfinder Society would miss them until the time limit had expired. The trip to Ostergarde had to take at least a week, probably more like 2 weeks. So the PCs travel there and don't return. It's a week there and a week to get back. At what point does the Society think "They're overdue, we should send a second team to see what has happened."? I believe that wouldn't happen within the 9 day window for a raise dead. I'm interested in arguments to the contrary.
The PCs were in between 3rd and 5th level. None of them could afford a resurrection. Three of them were with the Shadow Lodge and I pointed out they could get their bodies retrieved, but they could not afford the raise dead and associated restorations.
I have not played this scenario yet, so I will not be commenting on it's specifics. That said, while I do not believe your ruling of no raise before of travel time is not unfounded, I would have examined the situation slightly differently.
The guide does not detail how the rescue team locates the victims, travels, or how long they typically take to perform their task. Because of this open ended interpretation coupled with the facts that the PFS has a great deal of magic to support it (for example, give a rescue team a scroll of divination, scrying, and 2 teleports), I personally draw the conclusion that part of the "rescue package" is retrieval in a time frame that allows for raise dead to function normally.
In regards to the frustrated review writers, the creature they faced at level 3 is a tough one. If they were not pregens though, they certainly could have been prepared for the encounter just utilizing basic precautionary sense and prestige points. At level 3, they likely had 6-12 prestige, and atleast 2-6 opportunities to spend those PP on oils and potions.
oil of daylight
potion of fly
potion of gaseous form
potion of water breathing
2 pp each. A good "just incase" package to have on most any character.
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Thanks for the feedback guys! After calculating the cost of Body Retrieval, Raise Dead and Restorations for a 3rd or 4th level PC I don't think it is going to change the outcome. A 4th level PC has at most 22 PP. Average WBL is 6,000 GP. However, I will contact the players and at least let them know they have more options than I presented them with.
I think my lesson learned was that if Tier 3-4 PCs don't go into Ostergarde with means to overcome darkness then 9 out of 10 tables are going to be TPKs, running tactics as-written. I don't think the players thought they would need the items Lormyr mentioned until they were higher level. The GM is not necessarily going to know what's in the PC's equipment inventory either. It is going to take the GM quickly realizing the party is outmatched and taking a hand in things to change the outcome.
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Ok, thank you.
So it's a good idea to cast daylight on a sunrod or torch.Daylight on an active sunrod will give you light even if the enemy heightens their darkness spell for some reason. It is a solid choice.
Barring heighten hijinx on the enemy's part, heightened to 4th continual flame will just flat out beat any of the typical darkness magic.
You probably don't want to be an adventurer for long with anything other than those two if you can avoid it (unless you have 8th level sun domain aura or something like that). Given only 2 PP for an oil of daylight that any character can use, I blame the PCs at 6-7 if they don't have one.
Heeeeyyyyy there ol' buddy ol' pal ... just wondering, since you have such an awesome grasp on the light/darkness thing, would you mind writing something up for the shared drive? I know this is something that I think all judges have struggled with so would be awesome to have in there :) thanks... If you don't want to, can I frankstein your posts from in here?
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There are a least two posts suggesting that level 3/4 players were out-voted, i.e. forced to play up.
The idea of allowing 3 high subtier players force 2 lower subtier players to play up based on "majority rules" is ridiculous. We don't let a group play up unless it is a unanimous decision. It's up to the GM to mediate this discussion and ensure no one is bullied or coerced. This rule was in place locally before Season 4, due to the likelihood that lower-level players were newer players, and newer players would often give in to pushy veterans, and yet newer players are also in more danger of walking away after a bad experience.
Perhaps this should be standardized.
What's with so many pregens playing this special? What a waste of a scenario.
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I agree with Scott. (My technique: I hand out cards for players to write stuff for me at the beginning of the session. If there's a question about playing up / down, I ask players to note in a corner which they prefer. I only run "up" if (a) the majority agrees to play up, and (b) every player below the midpoint wants to play up. I announce the decision before the VC briefing, in case some high-level PC wants to bail and find another table.)
I've played at tables where the GM doesn't reveal what sub-tier we're playing at. I don't recommend that.
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I agree with Scott. (My technique: I hand out cards for players to write stuff for me at the beginning of the session. If there's a question about playing up / down, I ask players to note in a corner which they prefer. I only run "up" if (a) the majority agrees to play up, and (b) every player below the midpoint wants to play up. I announce the decision before the VC briefing, in case some high-level PC wants to bail and find another table.)
I like this approach. I haven't had a lot of problems with this issue where I've been coordinating just because people have enough different characters of various levels and sometimes we can get off multiple tables of the same scenario, so rarely is anyone forced out of tier if they don't want to be. But I will keep this approach in mind the next time I am at a table where this could be an issue...
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Heeeeyyyyy there ol' buddy ol' pal ... just wondering, since you have such an awesome grasp on the light/darkness thing, would you mind writing something up for the shared drive? I know this is something that I think all judges have struggled with so would be awesome to have in there :) thanks... If you don't want to, can I frankstein your posts from in here?Ok, thank you.
So it's a good idea to cast daylight on a sunrod or torch.Daylight on an active sunrod will give you light even if the enemy heightens their darkness spell for some reason. It is a solid choice.
Barring heighten hijinx on the enemy's part, heightened to 4th continual flame will just flat out beat any of the typical darkness magic.
You probably don't want to be an adventurer for long with anything other than those two if you can avoid it (unless you have 8th level sun domain aura or something like that). Given only 2 PP for an oil of daylight that any character can use, I blame the PCs at 6-7 if they don't have one.
Is there anything you'd like to see in addition to my post(s) above? If so, I can type it up. If not, maybe faster to frankenstein. Either way, glad to help and spread the word. One reason I made the old thread that I made about this and gathered what info I could was that the more GMs who get darkness correct, the less likely that I and others will lose another PC to a GM doing it wrong (in my case, it was the good old "I have deeper darkness at will, so I'll just cast it again and now your daylight doesn't matter" gambit).
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Thanks for the feedback guys! After calculating the cost of Body Retrieval, Raise Dead and Restorations for a 3rd or 4th level PC I don't think it is going to change the outcome. A 4th level PC has at most 22 PP. Average WBL is 6,000 GP. However, I will contact the players and at least let them know they have more options than I presented them with.
I think my lesson learned was that if Tier 3-4 PCs don't go into Ostergarde with means to overcome darkness then 9 out of 10 tables are going to be TPKs, running tactics as-written. I don't think the players thought they would need the items Lormyr mentioned until they were higher level. The GM is not necessarily going to know what's in the PC's equipment inventory either. It is going to take the GM quickly realizing the party is outmatched and taking a hand in things to change the outcome.
I guess dwarves, half-orcs, and planetouched aren't as popular as I thought--I'm surprised, as I thought more PCs have darkvision, even if not specifically planning to counter darkness. A single 3-4 barbarian with darkvision and the cold iron mace from earlier in the scenario should be able to beat the thing every time with whatever assistance her 4-6 unseeing compatriots can muster. If they didn't even have 1 darkvision guy, not even sparing for a 150 gp scroll of darkvision is a bit spendthrifty on the party's part. If they're going to do that, and they can't think creative (and example of creative is throwing a <1 gp blanket over the babau to cover up the object with darkness on it and return the light until the babau slashed out of it), I think it's not a bad outcome to be forced to flee by the encounter. If the GM takes a hand in things to change the outcome to a victory this time, they're just going to TPK next time darkness comes up with another GM. Unfortunately, it takes a particular kind of player to take a loss in stride and learn from it, and not all of our players are like that.
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Is there anything you'd like to see in addition to my post(s) above? If so, I can type it up. If not, maybe faster to frankenstein. Either way, glad to help and spread the word. One reason I made the old thread that I made about this and gathered what info I could was that the more GMs who get darkness correct, the less likely that I and others will lose another PC to a GM doing it wrong (in my case, it was the good old "I have deeper darkness at will, so I'll just cast it again and now your daylight doesn't matter" gambit).Heeeeyyyyy there ol' buddy ol' pal ... just wondering, since you have such an awesome grasp on the light/darkness thing, would you mind writing something up for the shared drive? I know this is something that I think all judges have struggled with so would be awesome to have in there :) thanks... If you don't want to, can I frankstein your posts from in here?Ok, thank you.
So it's a good idea to cast daylight on a sunrod or torch.Daylight on an active sunrod will give you light even if the enemy heightens their darkness spell for some reason. It is a solid choice.
Barring heighten hijinx on the enemy's part, heightened to 4th continual flame will just flat out beat any of the typical darkness magic.
You probably don't want to be an adventurer for long with anything other than those two if you can avoid it (unless you have 8th level sun domain aura or something like that). Given only 2 PP for an oil of daylight that any character can use, I blame the PCs at 6-7 if they don't have one.
Posts are good ... I can't do anything with it this weekend ... I have a goal of 9 internship reports to knock out ...
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Just played this last night (subtier 6-7), and really liked it. :) This character has a real grudge against evil outsiders (in his backstory, but reflected in his mechanics) so I'd really been looking forward to putting him through this (and of course I'm super-stoked for Season 5: Year of the Demon!) and it did not disappoint. :D
First encounter: Successfully ID'd the howlers with my max-ranks Knowledge (planes). Felt good to be a tiefling and not have to save against the howling. ;) Also got to CdG one of them after the party's arcane trickster hit it with a wand of deep slumber.
Second encounter: Kind of awkward. I was the only one who, in-character, was completely unwilling to say the "password". (Cleric of Iomedae, with a grudge against evil outsiders? Yeah, not happening.) I gave the party the chance to hide or leave or whatever before I entered the building, as I wasn't going to force them to risk their lives for my faith (I was completely prepared to attempt to solo that encounter). Thankfully, they were willing to help (especially grateful for the barbarian!), and as thanks I offered to use my own resources to heal people afterwards so my choices wouldn't cost them anything. Thankfully, there didn't end up being any undead that needed nuking, so blowing all those channels (I was at 1/59 HP, and another party member was at 2/?? HP). I was fully prepared to let myself get pulverized, but it's a good thing I survived, because...
Third encounter: Identified the babaus, but rolled in the single digits and only got that they were evil outsiders. Darkness went up pretty quick, and only I and two others had darkvision. One of the other two couldn't deal enough damage to overcome DR, and no one in the entire subtier 6-7 party had the means to deal with (non-deeper, even!) darkness. Are you kidding me? Had I been dead (or otherwise prevented from casting the daylight I had prepared) it would have been a half-orc barbarian (who couldn't bypass their DR10, effectively dealing about 60% of his normal damage output) against all three babaus. From skimming through this thread, it sounds like it'd have been the latest in a far-too-long series of WTFTPK's. Sheesh. Anyway, I lit things up, failed a dismissal, walloped with a 7d6 holy smite (total of 60 damage and two blindnesses), then joined the melee with (after failing to penetrate DR once) a bless weapon that left me dealing as much net damage as the barbarian.
Final encounter: ID'd the hounds, but they went down pretty easily anyway. I wasn't really in a position to meaningfully contribute against Vaga combat-wise, as by the time I was done with the hounds, she was surrounded. I did manage to invisibility purge her, though, and I like to tell myself that helped, even though she was trying to toss save-granting spells at a party that included three monks. ;)
Overall, a pretty cool experience. Thanks for running, Andy!
