It doesn't prevent all spell casting, it just forces Concentration checks, which are slightly harder than they used to be but for Web won't be that painful. You also don't have to waste skill points on Concentration anymore, so that's a plus too. Read the condition here.
Also, the caster's CMD doesn't matter, since no check to resist the grapple is ever made. The only CMB that matters is that of Web, which affects the Concentration check to cast spells while grappled, and I'm a little foggy on what that number actually would be. I'm sure someone will clear that up in a few hours.
Oh goody, it's another case of inconsistent RAW. The section on concentration checks says one thing, and the section on the grappled condition says something different.
Web is a tough spell now, but if you back past 3.5, it's always been a great spell.
There's an easy counter, True Strike. It's verbal only, and will give you enough of a bonus to get out.
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Web is a tough spell now, but if you back past 3.5, it's always been a great spell.
There's an easy counter, True Strike. It's verbal only, and will give you enough of a bonus to get out.
I'm not sure this is an easy counter, you still have a fairly tough concentration check to make.
DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level
It doesn't say in web what the CMB of the spell is, I believe you just subtract 10. So the DC of the concentration check would be the DC of the spell plus the spell level you are casting. Likely 17-20 depending on the caster and feats. Low level casters are going to have trouble nailing that consistently.
To be fair, counterspell has always been a losing proposition in D20. But yes, as long as a Web spell has the environment to support it, and you don't mind possibly giving the enemy cover, Web works better.
That's why we were trying to find out what the effective CMB of the Web spell was, above the post.
At no point does the wizard check against his own CMB to cast a spell- he's not trying to stop himself from casting!
If You Are Grappled: If you are grappled, you can attempt to break the grapple as a standard action by making a combat maneuver check (DC equal to your opponent's CMD; this does not provoke an attack of opportunity) or Escape Artist check (with a DC equal to your opponent's CMD). If you succeed, you break the grapple and can act normally. Alternatively, if you succeed, you can become the grappler, grappling the other creature (meaning that the other creature cannot freely release the grapple without making a combat maneuver check, while you can). Instead of attempting to break or reverse the grapple, you can take any action that doesn't require two hands to perform, such as cast a spell or make an attack or full attack with a light or one-handed weapon against any creature within your reach, including the creature that is grappling you. See the grappled condition for additional details. If you are pinned, your actions are very limited. See the pinned condition in Conditions for additional details.
The one in control (restraining the other party) is the grappler, and is the one whose CMB is referenced. The wizard isn't trying to restrain the Web spell, so you must have to use the Web's CMB.
This is weird as all get-out, though. Entangled was simpler.
But by definition grappling and grappled are the same, just tense is different.
As an editor- one word carries the meaning that you are performing the action (grappling, an act) and the other carries the meaning that you are simply in that state, involved but implied not to be active (grappled, a state of being).
But looking at the materials, I can easily see how it can go both ways. Both rulings are entirely legal RAW at the moment. Could be FAQ-worthy if it hasn't been already (I'm terrible with searches, my librarian friends all tease me).
I prefer the interpretation that doesn't lock spellcasting completely for the victim, most likely because I'm not a killer GM. If you are trying to hold someone squirming free, sure, you can't cast because you're doing something else. But if you are the victim, a concentration check should be enough of a hurdle (and if the enemy pins you, which is likely, it is clear you can't cast).
And as for the grapple check, I'm not sure there needs to be one. The victim of the grapple should never have to check against their own statistics, because they aren't restraining themselves. The Web spell shouldn't be making grapple checks, as the spell description states that the victims just gain the "grappled" condition if they fail saving throws (kind of like how you can get the "Fatigued" condition or the "entangled" condition). They free themselves by means outlined in the spell, too. So in this case, the grappled condition is just gained or lost, it isn't something between opposing parties- which is weird considering old mechanics, but Pathfinder changed it.
The DC for the concentration check is something we're not clear on and probably should be FAQ'ed if it hasn't already.
Possibly the grappler only faces a 10 + spell level check. He's in control after all. I don't think the folks at Paizo thought about it. They probably should have because of druids, but...
Ideally grappled and grappling should be separate conditions rather a condition with some exceptions for the controller. It would make the rules quite a bit clearer.
In this case, there technically is no "grappler" since the spell just spontaneously causes the condition on a single being. Two beings aren't opposed, so there isn't any "control" to really be had. If anything, there is a victim, but the "controller" (a.k.a. grappler) is not a character with stats, it's a spell. The theoretical Wizard certainly isn't restraining anybody and can't restrain the spell, and can't make an opposed grapple check to "take control." He just frees himself via the means outlined in the spell: Make a combat maneuver check against the spell's saving throw DC, or an Escape Artist check of the same. The Web never makes any CMB checks of any kind, the victims just fail Reflex saves and gains the condition.
Edit: I think what might be making this so weird for everyone is that it's like the Web spell is the thing grappling everyone and "controlling" the grapple, but because it doesn't have the requisite stats, you can't use the usual process of the same name, where two beings are opposing one another. The way it is constructed at the moment only works because Grappled became a Condition, meaning it can be granted by any process that says so, not the specific maneuver of the same name.
The "Grappled" Condition is a single set of restrictions, like "Pinned" is. "Grappling" is a process a character can do. A character can be "Grappled" without actually "Grappling" anything (the same way someone can be "Pinned" but not "Pinning" anything), but this is a really weird phrasing in this case, and the terminology is confusing when taken at face value.
Now that I think about it, if you don't think like a modular engineer or object-oriented programmer, it's pretty obtuse. Makes me wonder why D20 is the game system I have the easiest time finding players for.
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No fear, Chengar, Nicos is making the simple mistake of confusing the grappled character for the grappling character.
I can see where you're coming from, but I don't think its clear. When does the rules on page 206 (and page 184) come into play?
PF RPG p206: "Grappling or Pinned: The only spells you can cast while grappling or pinned are those without somatic components and whose material components (if any) you have in hand. Even so, you must make a concentration check (DC 10 + the grappler’s CMB + the level of the spell you’re casting) or lose the spell."
PF RPG p184 "To cast a spell with a somatic (S) component, you must
gesture freely with at least one hand. You can’t cast a spell of this type while bound, grappling, or with both your hands full or occupied."
If you are the grappler, your only options are, according to page 200, Move, Damage, Pin or Tie Up. So it seems that the p184/206 rules cannot be applying to the grappler.
If you are the grappled you can, according to page 201, "take any action that doesn’t require two hands to perform, such as cast a spell".
Page 213 says "Somatic (S): A somatic component is a measured and
precise movement of the hand. You must have at least one hand free to provide a somatic component."
The Grappled condition states "A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler’s CMB + spell level, see page 206), or lose the spell."; no mention that the spell can't have somatic components.
So the rules on pages 201, 213 and the grappled conditions seem to indicate that it should be possible to cast a somatic spell when you are the "grappled" as you can take actions that don't require two free hands (and casting a somatic spell requires only one hand).
But if that is the case, when do the rules on page 184/206 apply if we agree that they can't apply to the Grappler as they do not have the option to cast a spell at all? For the page 184/206 rules to make sense we have to assume they override the page 201 rule that says you can take any action that doesn't require two hands.
Now the Pinned condition does state that "A pinned creature can take
verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component." so in regards to Somatic components that is in line with the page 184/206 rules. But in regards to material components this doesn't fit with page 206 - so that part of the page 206 rule would never seem to apply.
Unfortunately this ambiguity comes about with the rules changes to Grapple that Paizo made and didn't follow through to every part of the text.
I flagged your post as a FAQ candidate.
I can't remember where we got this. So I don't know if it was a house rule or we read it some where. But what we have always used is:
In web, the concentration check is DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level
Where the grappler's CMB = spell level (for web this is normally 2) + the casting stat modifier of the one that cast the spell.
So if a wizard with an int of 17 cast a web on you with 1 level of heighten you would have to make a concentration check of 16.
No fear, Chengar, Nicos is making the simple mistake of confusing the grappled character for the grappling character.I can see where you're coming from, but I don't think its clear. When does the rules on page 206 (and page 184) come into play?
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But if that is the case, when do the rules on page 184/206 apply if we agree that they can't apply to the Grappler as they do not have the option to cast a spell at all? For the page 184/206 rules to make sense we have to assume they override the page 201 rule that says you can take any action that doesn't require two hands.
The main confusion is that "Grapple" is a Combat Maneuver a character does, while "Grappled" is a condition that a character can gain by means other than the specific Combat Maneuver.
If your character is performing a Grapple maneuver (i.e. the verb form, "Grappling," which is what it is listed as in those sections) then you aren't allowed to cast somatic spells. Normally you wouldn't be able to anyway because it costs you actions in the round, but if you can maintain a grapple as a Move action or if you have a Quickened spell, it's important.
If you simply gained the Grappled condition, you aren't quite as occupied trying to use your limbs to restrain something wiggly, you are just being interfered with. You could theoretically gain the Grappled condition from multiple sources outside of the Grapple maneuver, such as the Web spell here, some sort of magical bola, a complicated trap, or a wall of hands trying to grasp at you. Unless they hold you completely still (i.e. make you Pinned), you could theoretically cast a one-handed spell, you would just be pushed around by whatever is restraining you (hence the Concentration check).
TL:DR; If you are doing the Maneuver, 206/184. If you aren't doing the maneuver (you are a victim or just have the Condition), then 201.
Edit: Potential simplification. Rename the "Grappled" condition "Restrained" instead. Leave the Maneuver, any verb forms of the word, and "Pinned" alone. Might make more sense.
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Another option is to look at the original formula and apply all of the conditions as they happen to currently occur.
(Example: Concentration check DC = 10 + Grappler's CMB + Spell Level - since there is no "Grappler" that portion of the function would return a "0" making the final DC 12)
Granted this is very weak because most any caster worth the salt to be called one can easily make this DC, but it is a solution.
Personally I feel that the spell's caster is the "Grappler" and would use his or her CMB to determine the DC. This would make webs from lower level casters manageable and give progressively higher leveled casters a greater capability to restrain foes.
Just my 2cp!
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Potential simplification. Rename the "Grappled" condition "Restrained" instead. Leave the Maneuver, any verb forms of the word, and "Pinned" alone. Might make more sense.
Oh my god. Yes please. This would clear up so many circular wordplay arguments. This entire thread has done very little but make me more confused on the original issue, but this is my favorite rules suggestion ever.
I could still go either way on the actual question involved with this thread, but if we get nothing else from it, I seriously hope that in future editions, this change gets made. That or a complete revamp of these rules, but that's a pipe dream, methinks.
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If your character is performing a Grapple maneuver (i.e. the verb form, "Grappling," which is what it is listed as in those sections) then you aren't allowed to cast somatic spells. Normally you wouldn't be able to anyway because it costs you actions in the round, but if you can maintain a grapple as a Move action or if you have a Quickened spell, it's important.
[...]TL:DR; If you are doing the Maneuver, 206/184. If you aren't doing the maneuver (you are a victim or just have the Condition), then 201.
Ah yes! Well pointed out. So Rule 206/184 applies if you are the Grappler but are able to maintain the Grapple by means of a Move action, or are able to cast a Spell as a Swift (or immediate I guess) action.
So we have found a place where the rule can be used, but TBH I think that is merely good fortune rather than intentional design.
When you are the grappler, if you have access to quickened spells, or some means of maintaining the grapple as a move action to keep your standard action free for spellcasting.
Yep, this was the piece of the puzzle I was overlooking.
Its funny, my main PFS character is a Druid with Improved Grapple and I keep thinking I have a good understanding of the Grapple rules but then I keep discovering that something has changed* or that there is some remnant of 3.5 rules that I don't think apply, but then find do in very specific circumstances. It really makes me appreciate the 3.5 Grapple rules that didn't have the concept of Grappler and Grapplee and held both to the same rules for spellcasting (explicitly spelt out in the Grapple description and not spread out over the Magic, Combat and Appendix sections).
*Pinned changing from "A pinned creature cannot move and is flatfooted" to "A pinned creature cannot move and is denied its Dexterity bonus" which seems to be interpreted be some as losing Dex Bonus to ability checks, skills, Reflex saves as well as AC, which by a strict reading does seem to be the case.