Sandbox Versatility of PFO?


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Goblin Squad Member

How creative will the game let us get?
Im trying to make a case for Emergent Gameplay via verb-noun parsing for objects in the game to fully experience the sandbox and PnP creativity we associate with PathFinder. The introduction of the "keyword" system for crafting in the Murder by numbers blog brought this to my mind.

Could I cast an anti-magic field, cast shrink on some boulders. Pick up now pebble sized boulders and throw them through the anti-magic field at my enemies? With the pebbles turning back into boulders once they hit the anti-magic field.

Could I put hidden explosive wards or runes on some arrows, so they explode when notched?

Could I pay a Necromancer to make a clone of me. Armor and arm the clone and hide him in my merchant caravan. Disguise myself as a merchant and get the surprise attack on some bandits when they kill me?

Could I incapacitate someone, store their soul in a magic jar, posses their body and then pretend to be them? Even accessing their secure bank vault in town?

Dark Archive

Will I be able to play the pacifist monk that never, ever kills anyone or anything? Can I choose to disable, disarm, and knock out my opponents should violence ever be ABSOLUTELY necessary?

Goblin Squad Member

Carbon D. Metric wrote:
Will I be able to play the pacifist monk that never, ever kills anyone or anything? Can I choose to disable, disarm, and knock out my opponents should violence ever be ABSOLUTELY necessary?

At the moment, no.

CEO, Goblinworks

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It's unlikely that the world will have game technology of that level for at least another 10 years Xaer. But it will be interesting to see how much emergence we can facilitate.

CEO, Goblinworks

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@Carbon D. Metric - what does death mean in a world where every character you can kill automatically resurrects?

Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:
@Carbon D. Metric - what does death mean in a world where every character you can kill automatically resurrects?

That actually brings up an interesting point. We have an in-character explanation of the MMO ressurection mechanic (Pharasma did it). Will we similarly have an IC highlander-esque sense of other people so marked? Some in-character reason why we *know* these people won't actually die?

Goblin Squad Member

I think in terms of the objects in the world, it might need to be a sort of mmo where players can create scripts and sell on a game market to be vetted and used in a game ie to change properties. But likely fairly basic graphical engine for anything like that (dwarf fortress the mmo or topia online). Or in terms of destructible terrain some sort of voxel engine? I think Notch is attempting something "like" this with his 0x10^c in-game computer on your spaceship??

But I'm most interested in the versatility the players can bring eg politics and treaties and trade tariffs and all this stuff, that creates a background to the world, possibly combined with various events in game: With dev input and player organised as well.

Goblin Squad Member

Dario wrote:
Ryan Dancey wrote:
@Carbon D. Metric - what does death mean in a world where every character you can kill automatically resurrects?
That actually brings up an interesting point. We have an in-character explanation of the MMO ressurection mechanic (Pharasma did it). Will we similarly have an IC highlander-esque sense of other people so marked? Some in-character reason why we *know* these people won't actually die?

You raise an interesting thought. If we know that killing PCs is really not killing them, but just forcing them to respawn elsewhere, than why is non consensual PvP a chaotic evil act?

I can see if hen we kill NPCs, that might be evil in light of them not being "marked", but then again, they do respawn as well don't they?

Perhaps GW might consider having a different take on death, both PC and NPC, than most other MMOs.

There could be a progressively longer cold down for respawn of the dead. Obviously, PCs would respawn faster than NPCs, and PCs that are "twice marked" would have their respawn delay halved compared to those only "once marked".

What happens to a PC that has a long delay?

First, the character is not losing training time. So there is no complaint there.

Second, there could be a mini quest (random) where the character is in the spirit world and fighting to get back to the world of the living.

Third, the death timer is real world. If the player chooses to he or she could just log into a different character until the timer is done.

In the end, this will add some needed tension to the prospect of death.

For NPCs, this would add an atmospheric element to the game, for PCs as they travel around the world.

Imagine, you enter a small village and all of the villagers have been killed off. You return several days later and now there are only a few people around, and they are talking about the event that wiped out the population. A week later and the village has been returned to normal.

Goblin Squad Member

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Interesting. Only our Bluddwolf would try and market Death as 'ambience'.

Customer: "Nice restaurant: We like the mood lighting."

Maitre d': "Thank you, sir. Blade or Shotgun?'

Customer: "What shotguns do you have in your cellar tonight?"

Maitre d': "We have a very dry Smith&Wesson over and under."

Customer: "12-Guage?"

Maitre d': "But of course, sir. Or we may still have a 10-Guage but I will have to check"

Customer: "No no: No bother. The 12-Guage will be just fine thank you."

Maitre d': "If I am not mistaken we also have in a Mossburg dog-leg Goosegun, '48 vintage"

Customer: 'No no the S&W will be fine"

Maitre' d':"Veddy good, sir."

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

There is an early episode of Star Trek:DS9 that this discussion reminds me of. There was a planet that the Dominion had turned into an eternal prison. Everyone on the planter was involved in a gang war that had gone on for centuries. Every time they are killed they are revived by some tecnobabble, but they feel the pain of dying each time. The still just kill each other over and over again because each side hates the other. Kai Opaka ends up getting killed and stuck on the planet, but tries to foster a peace. The continuous killing is "Evil" because it serves no purpose except causing pain.

Goblin Squad Member

Imbicatus wrote:
There is an early episode of Star Trek:DS9 that this discussion reminds me of. There was a planet that the Dominion had turned into an eternal prison. Everyone on the planter was involved in a gang war that had gone on for centuries. Every time they are killed they are revived by some tecnobabble, but they feel the pain of dying each time. The still just kill each other over and over again because each side hates the other. Kai Opaka ends up getting killed and stuck on the planet, but tries to foster a peace. The continuous killing is "Evil" because it serves no purpose except causing pain.

Battle Lines

Goblin Squad Member

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Being wrote:
Interesting. Only our Bluddwolf would try and market Death as 'ambience'.

You mean it's not?? What have I been thinking?

But seriously, the deserted town that has been wiped out by something is a stapple in many fictional tales.

And still being serious, a game without a somewhat real death penalty is kind of lame.

I know that some of the Devs have said that death will happen frequently. Well maybe it would be better if we dies a little less frequently, but it had a little bit more of a consequence.

I used to play paintball when I was much younger, and in military shape. It was fun for a short time, but then that faded fast. Then we figuered out how far to crack up the FPS (feet per second) so that the paintballs would actually cause welts and even break the skin on exposed areas. It was only then that the adreneline started pumping again and its was fun again.

Goblin Squad Member

I too would like to see NPC settlements wiped on a regular basis, just make sure there is a bonus to keep them up and it gives it some importance :)

Goblin Squad Member

My understanding is that there are just the three NPC settlements that serve as starter towns, and they will be functionally unassailable. Because they're the starter towns, and razing the newbie zone is not in the best interests of the game.

Goblin Squad Member

Well, from an IC standpoint, since we don't know WHY we've been marked or spared from death....I've always taken the rationale that our characters wouldn't know which death would be thier last or the same for anyone else so marked.

I mean wouldn't things get rather silly and nihilistic otherwise....you can do anything without fear of lasting loss.....and no chance to ever settle anything with any sense of finality....combat becomes entirely pointless at that point...so what's the point in participating in it in the game?

I mean WE know that the game is kinda a big never ending, really sophisticated version of capture-the-flag....but I think it would take ALOT away from our characters to see it in that way, no?

Goblin Squad Member

I think that depends on how the character interprets it. I've seen some interesting RP come out of the IC immortality in TSW.

Goblin Squad Member

Bluddwolf wrote:
Dario wrote:
Ryan Dancey wrote:
@Carbon D. Metric - what does death mean in a world where every character you can kill automatically resurrects?
That actually brings up an interesting point. We have an in-character explanation of the MMO ressurection mechanic (Pharasma did it). Will we similarly have an IC highlander-esque sense of other people so marked? Some in-character reason why we *know* these people won't actually die?
You raise an interesting thought. If we know that killing PCs is really not killing them, but just forcing them to respawn elsewhere, than why is non consensual PvP a chaotic evil act?

Because in this fantasy universe, souls exist and alignments are objective energy states. Certain actions colour your soul a certain way. Reputation is the subjective opinion system.

Also, even if you 'only' beat someone to the brink of death but heal them before they died, you're effectively torturing them. In case it's not clear, torture is evil. In any decent society it's also unlawful.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

I would like to see some sort of more sever consequence for death as well. Something like what we had in EVE. If your clone wasn't up to snuff, you would lose training time. That was on top of the ship you would lose. So, now you have to completely re-equip and you have lost of the training time due to your failing to have a good enough clone. And then you had to buy a new clone. Not to mention, you resurrect where your clone was, and if it's on the other side of the game... well, you're out of luck. So there was a huge financial penalty for death, as was there a risk of a time penalty for death. That was sufficient motivation to not die, and in some case, to specifically go after killing players. I would love to see something similar in PFO.

Goblin Squad Member

There is no chance of having an EvE like death penalty. However there should be more of one then simply a respawn and the possible loss of some items the PC chose not to thread.

My suggestion is a progressive time sink for multiple deaths within a short time period, or a stacking debuff.

Any death mechanic should make the player nervous enough about it, to try to avoid it if possible. Combat without tension is not combat.

This is also why I would hope there is some opportunity, no matter how rare, for an instant kill. Again, this would create tension and always sit in the back of any player's mind, I can lose this fight.

If GW wants to take anything from EvE, they should take the sense that the world outside of the safe areas is a cruel, harsh and dangerous place. The moment you undock, you are not safe. If PFO can capture that feeling, GW will have a winner here.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

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I agree totally with Bluddwolf. That was one of the strongest drawing points of EvE to me. What you did mattered. Whether it was protecting someone else or dieing, there were severe consequences to whatever you did. Death should have meaning and it should be stressful to avoid it. Not just an inconvenience, but stressful.

Goblin Squad Member

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In UO, I used to create NPC-style characters pretty often, so that when I hired someone to escort me or used such a character for a plot where death was possible, I could then delete the character to simulate permanent death. That they were never coming back made trying to protect them far more meaningful to the other players. Their inability to protect me had lasting consequences.

Goblin Squad Member

Bluddwolf wrote:
There is no chance of having an EvE like death penalty.

Why is there no hope for this? Is it because of the threaded items concept? You still stand a chance of loosing items when you die. And I am pretty sure they are going to have to rethink how the threads will work otherwise the player econ will tank eventualy with nothign leaving the game in any meaningfull way.

Goblin Squad Member

Phyllain wrote:
Bluddwolf wrote:
There is no chance of having an EvE like death penalty.
Why is there no hope for this? Is it because of the threaded items concept? You still stand a chance of loosing items when you die. And I am pretty sure they are going to have to rethink how the threads will work otherwise the player econ will tank eventualy with nothign leaving the game in any meaningfull way.

EvE death penalty is loss of ship, loss of ship fittings, loss of cargo, loss of pod (clone), potential loss of implants, potential loss of experience, potential loss of skill (random), and the cost of a new clone. I have experienced deaths that cost me hundreds of millions of credits and even the loss of experience once, that set me back weeks of both training and wealth.

As for PFOs economy, the Devs seem to be moving with our weapons and armor being threaded and only minor items, resources and consumables being lost.

This is over simplifying it I know, but there are two blogs that address crafting and the numbers behind combat that will explain it better.

Goblin Squad Member

Bluddwolf wrote:


EvE death penalty is loss of ship, loss of ship fittings, loss of cargo, loss of pod (clone), potential loss of implants, potential loss of experience, potential loss of skill (random), and the cost of a new clone. I have experienced deaths that cost me hundreds of millions of credits and even the loss of experience once, that set me back weeks of both training and wealth.

As for PFOs economy, the Devs seem to be moving with our weapons and armor being threaded and only minor items, resources and consumables being lost.

This is over simplifying it I know, but there are two blogs that address crafting and the numbers behind combat that will explain it better.

This might not be the case (though I admit I do agree with the level of danger it has, and I have been pretty vocal about this fear as well). What we can hope for is that it is not quite the extent that it seems. It has been stated that the better the items, the more threads they take. It could very well mean that with the best gear, threading more than 1 item could be an imposibility. It is also possible that for the best level of competitiveness, you want to have all 3 weapon sets, to have the most flexibility, but can only realistically thread 1. That being said I do still agree with you, the danger levels of the threading certainly leave room in which it can equal serious issues.

Goblin Squad Member

I understand what you can loose in EVE. Way to forget to update your clone :).

It doesnt matter if your unthreded gear gets taken to teh economy. Sure it sucks for you but those items are still floating around in teh game world. Somone else has them. There needs to be some sort of actual item destruction or everythign will eventualy fall apart. The build fight destroy cycle doesnt work if one piece is missing or out of balance.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

Bluddwolf wrote:
Phyllain wrote:
Bluddwolf wrote:
There is no chance of having an EvE like death penalty.
Why is there no hope for this? Is it because of the threaded items concept? You still stand a chance of loosing items when you die. And I am pretty sure they are going to have to rethink how the threads will work otherwise the player econ will tank eventualy with nothign leaving the game in any meaningfull way.

EvE death penalty is loss of ship, loss of ship fittings, loss of cargo, loss of pod (clone), potential loss of implants, potential loss of experience, potential loss of skill (random), and the cost of a new clone. I have experienced deaths that cost me hundreds of millions of credits and even the loss of experience once, that set me back weeks of both training and wealth.

As for PFOs economy, the Devs seem to be moving with our weapons and armor being threaded and only minor items, resources and consumables being lost.

This is over simplifying it I know, but there are two blogs that address crafting and the numbers behind combat that will explain it better.

Bluddwulf, threading can only cover all equipment if you are willing to use low tier items, as it has been stated the higher tier gear will require more threads, thus you won't be able to thread everything you use as arms and armor. by six-12 months in, you will start to have to really think about what you can afford to loose and what you have to thread. Given EE will be 18 months, you will be doing this during EE. That means the economy will be rather robust by the time OE rolls around.

Now if you and others want to simulate perma-death or just loss of items, you are free to delete both characters or equipment, though given the fact that Ryan has stated, repeatedly that everyone will die frequently, you will never have a very powerful PC, but it is your choice (and anyone who wishes to also do so). I like the lore that is coming out to explain why PC's can be brought back, and will accept that and not worry about perma-death or item loss, since I will most likely use low tier gear until it is possible my PC's will be able to defend themselves better (it will differ for each PC depending upon combat skills and access to armor skills).

I have never liked perma-death, simply because I am paying to play a game, not paying to have a death simulator. A game requires fun, and every day or two having to start from scratch because it is a dangerous game world for PC's just isn't fun. In fact it would be 100% frustrating. Rage-quitting will be rampant in any game were both high rates of death and perma-death occur. For GW & Paizo that is a loosing proposition. So does GW make it so that death is a rare thing, and thus take a lot of the challenge out of the game, making it rather boring just so perma-death and item loss are real possibilities, or do they allow for Pharasma to allow PC's to be sent back from the Boneyard, and keep perma-death out? The latter is the only way to keep the vast majority of players happy, as they have a PC they feel invested in, not "Damn, died, so off to the character creator again. Maybe someday I will have a character that makes it past a day or two!" Does that really sound fun? It doesn't to me. It sounds like a sure way to loose players and ensure no one cares much about their PC as they will dies and have to be replaced often. Any business model that accepts that kind of scheme for a GAME, is a very poor business model, IMHO, and one I have rejected in the past when I owned half of a commercial MUD. We had thousands of players, but would have lost most if we had perma-death and major item loss, as few would want to play that type of game. These are just my opinions, but informed ones. GW has taken the best possible ideas and are seeking to implement then so that PfO is a financial success and a popular game with the masses.

Goblin Squad Member

Phyllain wrote:
... those items are still floating around in teh game world.

Not really. If I kill you, I get access to your unthreaded items and can choose a couple to take with me, everything else is destroyed. If you're using good (T3) gear, you will not be threading much at all.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

Phyllain wrote:

I understand what you can loose in EVE. Way to forget to update your clone :).

It doesnt matter if your unthreded gear gets taken to teh economy. Sure it sucks for you but those items are still floating around in teh game world. Somone else has them. There needs to be some sort of actual item destruction or everythign will eventualy fall apart. The build fight destroy cycle doesnt work if one piece is missing or out of balance.

Here is a blog post covering this:

Goblinworks blog post: Money Changes Everything wrote:

Coin is a unit of account. Coin can be infinitely divided and combined. It is virtual and does not appear as an in–game object. When your character walks around, you're not lugging around a huge bag full of money. Coin has no weight and can be moved from place to place instantly. We may decide at some point to generate some in–game rationale for all of this using mystic hand–waving and such to "explain" the curious properties of coin, but for the sake of this dev blog we'll keep it relatively simple.

All the coin in the game enters via a faucet. Faucets are things like rewards from NPCs for completing various tasks, or payments made by NPCs when they buy things from player characters. New coin may also be found as loot when a monster is defeated, or it may be discovered as treasure while exploring.

Coin exits the game as well, via a drain. Drains include actions like paying an NPC vendor for something or paying a tax or a fee to an NPC or to some system service. Coin might be consumed by player characters in other interactions with the game world in ways yet to be determined.

When players exchange coin between themselves, it is neither created nor destroyed. When your character dies, the coin you were carrying is not lost, and it doesn't stay with your husk. It is possible for coin to leave circulation without being destroyed—for example, coin associated with inactive characters is effectively out of circulation. But should those characters return to the game, their coin will be there waiting.

In general, more coin will enter the game than leave it. This will allow characters to accumulate wealth, and it ensures that there's ample capital available for loans and gifts. But when the value of M increases in an economic system, it often drives inflation. So like real–world central bankers, Goblinworks will have to carefully manage the size of our M, watching to see that inflation doesn't overwhelm the game's economy. Luckily, unlike real–world bankers, we have 100% visibility into how much coin exists, who has it, how it is being used, and what prices are charged for goods across the whole game world. So we can operate with a kind of Olympian perspective unavailable to our real–world counterparts. We can adjust our economic system with precision, changing the amount of coin that enters via faucets, and controlling the amount that exits via drains. There's no perfect stable point; M will have to be constantly adjusted over time in response to player activity. It's just one of those maintenance tasks that comes with operating a sandbox MMO.

I hope that relieves your fear about the economy. there will be ways for money to leave the economy. I had this fear earlier. But this explained it quite well.

Goblin Squad Member

Note, I don't actualy mind what they are doing with death from a mechanical/gameplay standpoint. I think it's probably just about right for a game where death is expected to be fairly frequent....and I'm sure they can easly and will tweak it a bit to get the right balance.

Mostly, I speak from a character rationalization and presentation standpoint. Like I said, I like the LOTRO conceit where your character doesn't die...just get's defeated....because that allows for death logicaly to be considered a big deal for the character...and the character can still go into a fight with a major sense of danger and dramatic tension because THEY don't know if this fight will be thier last (even though we, the PLAYER, know that isn't mechanicaly possible)

In games where defeat is death, I pretty much RP it that my character NEVER knows whether this death will be his last, whether he'll be allowed to return to life again this time (even though I, the player, know perma-death isn't possible and wouldn't really like it if it was). I REALLY, REALLY hope GW doesn't spoil that story-wise by putting in something that our characters KNOW there is no possibility of perma-death. Frankly that would COMPLETELY sour my experience of drama and tension as a RP-er.

It would reduce death, dramaticaly, down to an unpleasant trip to the dentist (or less, if it was a really quick/clean kill) and a financial loss. So I hope they leave the reason WHY we are marked a mystery or at least easly avoidable to learn for players who would feel such knowledge cheapens the experience of it for thier characters from a RP perspective. That way we CAN be uncertain from an IC perspective whether the next death would be our last.

There are VERY few things that would be a stand-alone deal-breaker for PFO for me....but this actualy IS one of them. If I had to RP a character that KNEW he couldn't die...I would just walk away from the game right then and there....it would simply no longer be a fun experience for me.

Now mechanicaly what they are doing, as a PLAYER, seems perfectly in line with what my expectations of a death penalty would be... I would probably prefer a little harsher...but what they've got planned now seems perfectly fine.

Goblin Squad Member

Gloreindl,

Where did I mention perma death?

We can have a death penalty, that is meaningful, without going to that extreme. Just as I argue that having no real death penalty will also hurt the game.

It remains to be seen how much this threading will protect and to what quality level it will protect up to. The Devs have said, all starter gear will be threaded. They have also said that you can increase your threading ability, just not by what means.

I'm just hoping for death to be something significant enough to make players nervous about it, but not too significant to be frustrating.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

My apologies. I thought in my reading of various posts you had been one advocating perma-death. I agree death should make players nervous, but it needs to be balanced by Ryan's statement that PC's "will die, a lot."

For the first few months, I can see death not being that big a deal, as no one will likely have expensive or powerful gear to be worried about replacing them, and most if not all will be threaded. Once, however, you have to start worrying about what you can thread and what you will have to leave unthreaded, death takes on more meaning. By that time, players should have a better idea on how often they will expect to die and where it is safer to PvE, and/or PvP. I expect this will also be the time the majority of players will have enough skills to try and explore further, and it becomes risk v reward. The way I look at things, the first 3-6 months of EE (depending upon when you gain access) will be the baby-steps of learning and limited exploration near settlements to gain some coin. Once you are better skilled, then at about the same time you will also be coming into possession of better gear, and it is at that point you will start to worry about death and loss.

I find this acceptable, and a better solution than EvE has, as you can get ganked on your first day of play there. (Note I didn't say griefed, but you can and will be shot if you venture into the wrong space, and you could very well have your pod shot as well.) By doing it this way, GW ensures that characters, and thus their players, will have enough invested in their survival to be around for many years, and will be more careful of death; at the same time those bold enough to see the risk is worth the reward will be making names for themselves, and possibly fortunes. Win-win for both types of gamers, and for GW and Paizo who see their player base happy about the level of risk. Too much risk early on will frustrate people, while too little as they get skilled will bore people. I think Ryan and the Devs have shown they are keeping this all in mind as they propose and then build these systems.

Again, sorry for mixing you up with those who advocate perma-death and other things most gamers will find too frustrating. I hope no hard feeling my friend :)

Goblin Squad Member

One option: Pharasma is currently low on soul-retrieval energy if any player's characters die now who have died "high" frequency recently, they will take some additional damage/debuffs/penalties.

Perhaps "in-character" the revived soul-bound character has no memory of the death and therefore acts as if death is real & final (even people saying to the contrary does not shake this self-preservation instinct)?

I must admit, the thought that 1/xxxxxxx characters might die and be perma-killed or thrown into a perma-death plane to escape from... has a small appeal! PD just does not seem a sustainable way for the mmorpg to go forwards (same as inactive/incarcerated characters). I think the economic and objective-loss cost of death if providing a steady context, could be adequate enough for death penalty?

Goblin Squad Member

I wasn't refering to in game currency but in game items. Never once did I mention money. It doesnt matter how much gold leaves or entered circulation if none of the items that are created are ever destroyed.

Goblin Squad Member

Phyllain wrote:
I wasn't refering to in game currency but in game items. Never once did I mention money. It doesnt matter how much gold leaves or entered circulation if none of the items that are created are ever destroyed.

Created itemns will often be destroyed. Anything unthreaded that is not looted is destroyed when a PC dies/resurrects.


Valandur wrote:
Bluddwolf wrote:


EvE death penalty is loss of ship, loss of ship fittings, loss of cargo, loss of pod (clone), potential loss of implants, potential loss of experience, potential loss of skill (random), and the cost of a new clone. I have experienced deaths that cost me hundreds of millions of credits and even the loss of experience once, that set me back weeks of both training and wealth.

As for PFOs economy, the Devs seem to be moving with our weapons and armor being threaded and only minor items, resources and consumables being lost.

This is over simplifying it I know, but there are two blogs that address crafting and the numbers behind combat that will explain it better.

There's no way they would put this much loss into the death penalty. Just look at the response to the idea that you might lose an unthreaded item to a pickpocket, and that's just one item that people choose not to thread.

I'm not in favor of losing everything in a death, especially if death happens frequently. I would however like to see a death penalty that's more difficult to recover from then say Wow's repop and be back fighting in 20 seconds. A debuff that you either wait out or get removed by a healer coupled with a longer trip back to where you were should work well enough provided they don't fill the land with graveyards.

To me death should be something you actually want to avoid. Sadly in games out now I've been playing and had something come up, like having to do something in another room, answer the door etc.. And often I'll just leave my character where they are thinking "what the hell, if I die it won't take but a minute to run back", any gear damage can be totally repaired, any debuff wears off in no time.


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AvenaOats wrote:

One option: Pharasma is currently low on soul-retrieval energy if any player's characters die now who have died "high" frequency recently, they will take some additional damage/debuffs/penalties.

,

So long as stuff like corpse camping and having your character targeted for repeated PK'ing isn't a problem then I think a form of escalated penalty for repeated death is something that should be considered, but there should be a reset, putting you back to normal every 24 hours or so, not on a weekly scale.

I actually like the idea of having certain mobs exact greater penalties when they kill you then normal death to mobs. Nothing permanent, but perhaps a longer or stronger, or maybe both! Debuff, like say a named Dragon kills you, you'll get the message that "Ankallagon the Black is feasting on your broken corpse" or perhaps a powerful NPC Mage slays you and teleports you further away from your husk then you normally would be. Just for special mobs though, to add flavor to the game. I like the idea that NPCs speak to you directly. In an old game I used to play they had a NPC mob that would taunt you as you were fighting it, saying things like "Getting tired yet xxxxxx?", "Almost got you that time xxxxxx." Small things like that really add to the game.

Goblin Squad Member

I'm not much into masochism.

Death penalties seem pointless in a land where you don't really die, you just lose spectacularly.

When I am in a PvP fight what matters is the winning. Loss is plenty humiliating enough. Adding death penalties atop that seem like adding insult to injury. In a world where death will be frequent my recommendation: beware what you wish for.

Goblin Squad Member

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Being wrote:
... what matters is the winning.

Bingo! (Beingo?)

If all of our interactions are meaningful, there's no need to try to develop proxies to make death meaningful.

Goblin Squad Member

Valandur wrote:
I actually like the idea of having certain mobs exact greater penalties when they kill you then normal death to mobs. Nothing permanent, but perhaps a longer or stronger, or maybe both!

This is a great idea. Adds variety, could be used by the devs very intelligently?


AvenaOats wrote:
Valandur wrote:
I actually like the idea of having certain mobs exact greater penalties when they kill you then normal death to mobs. Nothing permanent, but perhaps a longer or stronger, or maybe both!
This is a great idea. Adds variety, could be used by the devs very intelligently?

If it passes muster with the Devs I'm sure they will use it. I've noticed a excellent amount of ideas that seemed to come from the forum end up in the blogs being marked to go into the game. It's quite cool really :)


Valandur wrote:
AvenaOats wrote:

One option: Pharasma is currently low on soul-retrieval energy if any player's characters die now who have died "high" frequency recently, they will take some additional damage/debuffs/penalties.

,
I actually like the idea of having certain mobs exact greater penalties when they kill you then normal death to mobs. Nothing permanent, but perhaps a longer or stronger, or maybe both!

what if a kobold kills you, he should take your gear and get XP, it'd just be funny to see that once in a great while npc with epic gear that should be level 2, but has just lived long enough to be as potent as an elder dragon.


Dustyboy wrote:
Valandur wrote:
AvenaOats wrote:

One option: Pharasma is currently low on soul-retrieval energy if any player's characters die now who have died "high" frequency recently, they will take some additional damage/debuffs/penalties.

,
I actually like the idea of having certain mobs exact greater penalties when they kill you then normal death to mobs. Nothing permanent, but perhaps a longer or stronger, or maybe both!
what if a kobold kills you, he should take your gear and get XP, it'd just be funny to see that once in a great while npc with epic gear that should be level 2, but has just lived long enough to be as potent as an elder dragon.

That's been brought up, I think it's a great idea actually. A Dev discussed how difficult having the loot the kobald took appear on its avatar in game, I can't recall if there were issues with the mobs getting and using players gear though. If its possible I would really love to see that in game. Your right that little kobold would be one bad ass mob for a while lol.

The Devs will just love this idea :p. it would be extremely cool, and I think the first time it's been done in a MMO, but if mobs could gain exp for kills, both player and NPC mobs, then level up, they could eventually, provided they survive, grow to where they become a leader who would attract a number of soldiers, or members. Imagine the lone Gnoll who happened upon an area choc full of small critters. The Gnoll sets about slaying all of them gaining enough exp to level up. Then a few players wander by and the Gnoll manages to kill one, the others flee back to the settlement. The slain player makes it back to find an extra T1 shortsword they had in their pack is missing, the Gnoll is now wielding a sword and jhappens upon this player again. Again the Gnoll wins the fight and gains enough exp to level up reaching the level to become a Lt. Attracting 3 followers. Of it were to level up a couple more times it could become a Captain, attracting more followers and perhaps moving into some nearby ruins.

Very complex, I imagine difficult to code, but i think it would be a fun addition to the game.


Valandur wrote:
Dustyboy wrote:
Valandur wrote:
AvenaOats wrote:

One option: Pharasma is currently low on soul-retrieval energy if any player's characters die now who have died "high" frequency recently, they will take some additional damage/debuffs/penalties.

,
I actually like the idea of having certain mobs exact greater penalties when they kill you then normal death to mobs. Nothing permanent, but perhaps a longer or stronger, or maybe both!
what if a kobold kills you, he should take your gear and get XP, it'd just be funny to see that once in a great while npc with epic gear that should be level 2, but has just lived long enough to be as potent as an elder dragon.
That's been brought up, I think it's a great idea actually. A Dev discussed how difficult having the loot the kobald took appear on its avatar in game, I can't recall if there were issues with the mobs getting and using players gear though. If its possible I would really love to see that in game. Your right that little kobold would be one bad ass mob for a while lol.

I can understand their disposition, I mean I've seen the work it takes to mess with that in the TES creation kits.

honestly the best solution is to make different variations of chest/leg skeletons which interact with armors appropriately, then have the races actually utilize different combinations of these pieces. A human and an elf aren't too different in their builds... actually lorewise the elves in pathfinder are roughly the same height as humans but are simply more flexible.

orcs, tieflings, most of the medium races could get away with about five different chest- skeletons with various skins, by simply having diffrent variations of upper-arm, wrist, hand, lower leg, upper leg, waist and neck.

that'd be 9 different spots, which adds up when you consider the consequences of having a slider mechanic and a height mechanic. it'd make it easy to see more races, and even easier to see that hobgoblin in your paladin's godly full plate.


Ryan Dancey wrote:
@Carbon D. Metric - what does death mean in a world where every character you can kill automatically resurrects?

Inconvenience.

In which case -- Soul Trap becomes even more important as a tool for justice and as the only practical means of murder.

And what's really so difficult about implementing the sort of thing the OP was talking about? The clone dupe scenario wouldn't even be difficult, no special AI needed for it: the AI just considers your clone to be a valid target just like the original character... And if the original is killed, then his respawn location is obvious.

Bluddwolf wrote:
Perhaps GW might consider having a different take on death, both PC and NPC, than most other MMOs.

What was wrong with XP loss a la EQ1?

Goblin Squad Member

@Aunt Tony

I favor a progressive death penalty. First death could be simple respawn at different location and a brief debuff. If death occurs again while the initial debuff is in affect, then it is doubled. This could continue up to a daily max debuff, what ever that might be.

Goblin Squad Member

Actually from the sounds of it, the mobs will level up the same way players do. Mobs left unchecked grow stronger and more numerous. Which sounds to me very much like they level up over time.

As far as looting, whether they actually equip player gear or not I don't know or care, it sounds like a good amount of work to start implimenting that direction, though I do say, they should loot players, if nothing else than to ensure item loss is as frequent as needed. If item loss only happens for the losing side of a PVP fight, IMO that is far too rare. If it is to be expected on any TPK (IE any scenario in which your party isn't protecting your husk), that at least brings it up to a more reliable frequency.

What would make sense and be fairly easy to impliment is a wealth stat for tribes/groups of creatures, IE their gear quality goes up based on a wealth stat, that is improved as they loot/raid from players, or if they are donated money/gear from PCs in good relations with them. The gear dosn't have to match PC gear, it can just be upgrades and tags added to the modifiers of their gear, which slightly increases the quality of the materials players will get when they salvage the broken bits of the gear they loot off the monsters.


Bluddwolf wrote:
I favor a progressive death penalty. First death could be simple respawn at different location and a brief debuff. If death occurs again while the initial debuff is in affect, then it is doubled. This could continue up to a daily max debuff, what ever that might be.

Consider: losing your items on death means that the penalty is both progressive and limited. You lose your "Sunday Best" outfit on first death, then you need your second-best gear to continue (or you have to buy an identical "best" outfit to replace it and then continue) and if you die again, you lose that set... and so on. It forms a curve of diminishing penalty, but the economic ramifications are still that you are losing a form of your overall "power" which can be seen as being fractional.

That is, say that you have the discipline to restrict your gear investment. That means that you're still losing whatever fraction of your total wealth you have decided to invest into gear with each death you suffer. And there is no "decay" on this loss: once lost, your items are deleted. Unlike a temporary debuff that can be waited out, your wealth will always be less the amount you have lost relative to the total you have earned over the course of your character's life -- and that "lost" amount only increases. It helps with the mudflation issue, too...

Players are unlikely to view any given death as being irrevocable (because, given time, you can always earn the cash to get back to "where you were"), even though any one may be catastrophic (like losing a very nice ship in EVE that you couldn't afford to replace...). So players can decide for themselves the level of risk they are comfortable with. If you're comfortable with higher risk, go buy the nicest gear you can get your hands on. It's very powerful for your level, yes (and considering how PFO looks to be shaping up, powerful gear even on a new character is likely to make that character quite respectably powerful even relative to older characters), but if you lose it, you will be losing a great deal of power which you must earn back. Or, if you don't like risk, then only invest in gear that you are currently capable of replacing if you lose it. So your power growth is limited in the short term (by your own frugality), but your risk is much less since a death will essentially not cause you any immediate harm (your power level will be just the same as before you died if you can just replace your gear immediately) except for the cash.

Thus, an EVE-like system for punishing death is still progressive, but never permanently crippling (unless you consider the "power" you lost as being relative to your peers). In practice (in EVE at least) there is a limit to the power of the items you can acquire, but no real limit to your wealth. So then, at a certain point, your power becomes related to your income rather than assets (assuming that actual items themselves are always available for purchase), and long term PvP damage is a matter of attrition rather than a single decisive combat.

Let's say you are constantly fighting a specific foe, your Nemesis. Repeatedly losing to your Nemesis (him killing you) can be seen as being "Very Bad" for your character's power level if he ends up profiting by your death in any way. That is, your power will never again "catch up" to that of your Nemesis... unless you have buddies to help you. That is, if the attrition rate between you (your group) and your Nemesis (and his group) is in his favor, then he has won. But he doesn't win in the long term unless he actually does gain wealth faster than you do (what if, for example, he's a notorious jerk and has a fleet of bounty hunters after him, not just you and your friends).

Goblin Squad Member

Carbon D. Metric wrote:
Will I be able to play the pacifist monk that never, ever kills anyone or anything? Can I choose to disable, disarm, and knock out my opponents should violence ever be ABSOLUTELY necessary?

Now THAT would be a tough goal to meet....but go for it! Too many games require you become a mass murderer to achieve anything. Even Camelot Unchained will not (apparently) let you advance even in crafting without doing lots of PvP....not sure what developers obsession with killing is. I think that's whey so many of us (yes, I would prefer to mind my own business, but even here I must kill players to achieve) like to do non-combat stuff like crafting, decorating houses, farming (farming in LotRO was lots of fun and pretty well designed).


Hardin Steele wrote:
Carbon D. Metric wrote:
Will I be able to play the pacifist monk that never, ever kills anyone or anything? Can I choose to disable, disarm, and knock out my opponents should violence ever be ABSOLUTELY necessary?
Now THAT would be a tough goal to meet....but go for it! Too many games require you become a mass murderer to achieve anything. Even Camelot Unchained will not (apparently) let you advance even in crafting without doing lots of PvP....not sure what developers obsession with killing is. I think that's whey so many of us (yes, I would prefer to mind my own business, but even here I must kill players to achieve) like to do non-combat stuff like crafting, decorating houses, farming (farming in LotRO was lots of fun and pretty well designed).

The way they describe crafting in CU makes me wonder if MJ's been lurking on the forums here.:p. At least they will have bard classes with many (most) of the same abilities as they had on DAOC. :).

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