Stealth

[Shinigaze]

Komoda wrote:

Steath - 25' from torch, is DIM LIGHT Present, regardless of elf perception? YES. Does it stop elf from seeing? NO

HiPS - 25' from torch, is DIM LIGHT Present, regardless of elf perception? YES. Does it stop elf from seeing? YES

Except it doesn't stop the elf from seeing anything. It just ALLOWS the shadowdancer to make a stealth check. There is every possibility that the elf can make his perception roll against the Shadowdancer's stealth check and still see him.

Komoda wrote:

At some point, somewhere in the argument, you have got to agree to the fact that via stealth, your claim applies what the elf perceives (actual DIM LIGHT state doesn't matter) and at another point in your argument, via HiPS you claim what the elf perceives does not matter, (actual DIM LIGHT state does matter)even though there is no EXPLICT statement stating as such.

That's because this is a game of checks and balances, you take the relevant rules on one side, and apply the rules from the other side to determine what happens.

When using normal stealth you have:

A: I am in dim light, I have concealment and am unobserved so I stealth and you can't see me.
B: Yup.
C: Yup.
D: Hold on, I have LLV and so the dim light you are in does not provide concealment and therefore you are not stealthed from me.

When using HiPS:

A: I am 10' from dim light, I do not need concealment or be unobserved so I stealth and you can't see me.
B: Yup.
C: Yup.
D: Hold on, I have LLV and so the dim light you are in does not provide concealment and therefore you are not stealthed from me.
A: Does LLV alter the dim light to normal light?
D: No.
A: Then I am still stealthed to you because I do not need concealment to stealth.

Or for simplicities sake:

Steath - 25' from torch, is DIM LIGHT Present, regardless of elf perception? YES. Does it stop elf from seeing? NO
HiPS - 25' from torch, is DIM LIGHT Present, regardless of elf perception? YES. Does it stop elf from seeing? NO

But we have to apply a third question to the second situation:

Does it allow the Shadowdancer to make a stealth check? Yes.

Nothing about HiPS is negating or stopping the elve's LLV from operating as per normal. If the elf beats the Shadowdancer's stealth check then he would still be in an area of normal light as per the elf's perception, and would not benefit from the miss chance. The only thing that HiPS is doing is allowing the Shadowdancer to hide in places that your standard rogue cannot, which makes sense as it is a Prestige Class that requires you to be level 5 before you can even start taking levels into it and allows you to be a better rogue.

[Komoda]

And I totally understand why you would see it that way. But I don't see it that way.

[Ninja in the Rye]

Komoda wrote:

Shinigaze -

The disconnect that I see in your claim is that at some point the fact that the elf sees through DIM LIGHT matters (Stealth)

And at another point the fact that the elf sees through DIM LIGHT doesn't matter (HiPS)

We all agree that DIM LIGHT is actually in the square no matter what they elf perceives. But I feel it matters what the elf perceives in both cases. The other side feels it only matters in one case.

So we've established that one side is using the rules, and that you are ignoring the rules? Excellent.

[Drakkiel]

Then what is keeping a SD from hiding from an elf? The SD doesn't perceive that the dim light is further away from him so how does it affect him using a magical ability? I am not understanding your claim against HiPS

Quote:

At the same point on the map, at the same time, the level of light is different AS PERCEIVED by two different characters.

The SD perceives dim light within 10 ft...then he is able to use his magical ability yes? I am apparently failing to see why the elf's perceived light level would matter at all to the SD. The SD does not have to be IN dim light based on anyone's perception, dim light itself, as in actual lower light level is the only thing needed, and that's only within 10 ft of him

If Cody were an elf in my above example...Tiernen would still be able to stealth because he has HiPS

Your giving the elf are far greater benefit using LLV than it says (seeing through a supernatural ability)

Again you are not doing your claim justice by talking about "normal" stealth...we are not talking about normal stealth since HiPS is not normal in any way

And you didn't seem to notice the last part of my post...if an elf has one level in SD, and therefore perceives dim light differently, then could an elf use HiPS 10 ft from "normal dim light" since he doesn't perceive that dim light? If he were at the 20ft mark away from a torch, then for him "dim light" is perceived at 20ft more away...would he be able to use HiPS? If he were 25 ft out from the torch in "normal dim light" would he be able to shadow jump if he had it? would he gain DR from shadow master at level 10 in the same instance?

[Ravingdork]

Why does LLV allow the elf to see the shadowdancer, but the dwarf's darkvision doesn't allow him to see the shadowdancer?

That strikes me as contradictory, Komoda.

[james maissen]

Komoda wrote:

What I don't agree with is that: It doesn't matter what the elf perceives for HiPS, yet we agree what he perceives matters for stealth.

Please go and address the scenario that I laid out earlier in the thread.

To whit: a shadowdancer in full view of an elf, but the DIM LIGHT that the shadowdancer requires for HiPS is not in plain sight for the elf.

Would you allow or not allow the shadowdancer to hide from the elf?

-James

[Shinigaze]

James Jacobs wrote:

Shinigaze wrote:

Dear James,

I know stealth has always been a point of contention on the forums but I have a question in regards the the Shadowdancer and Assassin's Hide in Plain Sight supernatrual ability. If a shadowdancer is standing is standing within 10' of an area of dim light does the ability let him use stealth against everybody? Or, can he not stealth against people who have for instance Low Light Vision who do not perceive the area around him as dim light but instead see it as normal light?

A point of contention in some places on the forums, perhaps. I like to think they're not a point of contention here! :-)

If a shadowdancer is within dim light and can thus use Hide in Plain Sight, yes, that lets him try to Stealth against everyone. Low Light Vision and darkvision don't particularly help or limit this.

From the mouth of James Jacobs here is his ruling.

[Komoda]

Are you kidding me? Who cares what James Jacobs says? Just because he is a designer, that doesn't mean a thing! I still stand by my claim, you are all crazy!

That was sarcasm, but I figured half of you expected me to say something like that.

Ravingdork wrote:

Why does LLV allow the elf to see the shadowdancer, but the dwarf's darkvision doesn't allow him to see the shadowdancer?

That strikes me as contradictory, Komoda.

Ravingdork, my logic was that because LLV states that the torch Normal Light area is double. Darkvision states that he can see. Both are different.

Either way, we now have an official ruling thanks to Shinigaze:

James Jacobs wrote:

If a shadowdancer is within dim light and can thus use Hide in Plain Sight, yes, that lets him try to Stealth against everyone. Low Light Vision and darkvision don't particularly help or limit this.

As such, I withdraw my claim.

Great debate guys. That's all I ask for.

[Alcomus]

HiPS = You are Batman. Regardless of whether or not someone has thermal sights (AKA Darkvision) in the brief second that they lose sight of you for whatever reason (Lets say, for flavor purposes, they blink) you disappear. Unless the perception check beats your stealth check, you are unseen. (Again, for flavor, you are attached to the roof of the dungeon, hiding behind a rock that nobody noticed before, you are the rock, etc.) Sweet.

[Shadowlord]

@ Shinigaze

Thank you. Did you see that JJ went on to answer another related post? It adds a little more clarity.

James Jacobs wrote:

Cheapy wrote:

Hey nifty, some of my friends and I have had fun bantering back and forth about that question. Who is the dim light for hide in plain sight relative to? The shadowdancer? GM's interpretation? Humans? Magic abilities that relate to perceptions can get pretty funky.

The shadowdancer.

I will be adding these to my pre-canned HiPS trumps DV & LLV argument. That argument seems to come up in heated debates every few months or so. Again, thank you for getting an answer straight from the T-rex's mouth.

...

@ Komoda

It has been a hard debate. I am glad it's over, I need to catch up on sleep.

...

@ Alcomus

Batman is a good movie to visualise HiPS with. But I would say it's more HiPS (Ex) than HiPS (Su). Not that there is a mechanical difference, I just prefer to visualise them differently.

I also like The Hunted for an example of HiPS (Ex).

I really like Ninja Assasin for an example of HiPS (Su).

[Bigdaddyjug]

Komoda when you consider the fact that stealth and HiPS work differently, it makes perfect sense that you disregard what an elf would perceive.

In order to use normal stealth, you need concealment which the dim light gives. The elf sees through the dim light, therefore you can't stealth against the elf.

HiPS does not require concealment, just the presence of dim light. You've agreed that the dim light is still there evn though it doesn't affect the elf. Therefore, you can use HiPS.

That's a perfectly logical argument, something you have failed to put forward this entire thread.

Also, looks like one of the high muckety mucks ruled on this and HiPS can be used in the presence of an elf. Wheeeeeeeeeeeee!

[Shadowlord]

@ Komoda

So, our case has been proven and that is all well and good, my question now to you is: Do you understand how HiPS is actually supposed to work, and why? Do you understand the difference between using regular Stealth and using Stealth enhanced by HiPS?

[Komoda]

Shadowlord -
I have always understood your position and now admit defeat.

Bigdaddyjug - My logic was sound, a decision just had to be made.

The question boiled down to: Does the fact that an elf sees through dim light at 25' away from a torch affect the Shadowdancer's ability to use HiPS?

I felt it should, most (if not all) felt it shouldn't.

I didn't just pull it out of a hat. It is no more "logical" to say "it is there but doesn't matter" than it is to say "it is there but does matter."

A ruling is made, and I will follow it.

Did you really come back here to say "I told you so" and "you're dumb"?

[GM Arkwright]

I'm not sure if someone has mentioned this, but I find it an invaluable contribution towards stealth questions.

Hellcat Stealth

[Shadowlord]

GM Arkwright wrote:

I'm not sure if someone has mentioned this, but I find it an invaluable contribution towards stealth questions.

Hellcat Stealth

It has been mentioned.

[Cayzle]

I have not yet played a Pathfinder shadowdancer, But I am looking forward to doing so. Of course, the Hide in Plain Sight rule says, "As long as she is within 10 feet of an area of dim light, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind." There is a clear consensus that this means the SD has to be within 10 ft of a 5x5 square that has the dim light illumination condition.

Here's my question, for players and DMs out there who have actually played a SD for real with this rule: How does this actually work in play?

What I mean is, take a typical dungeon crawl. The SD has memorized the illumination table. Say the SD has convinced her party to use but a single continual light spell (an ioun torch, most likely), which provides normal light within 20 ft and dim light within 20-40 ft.

Say the default illumination in the dungeon is none, and many or most inhabitants have darkvision.

First of all, the SD cannot go ahead of the party and scout using HiPS, because in darkness, there are no squares of dim light that she needs for her power. If she carries a candle, which generates a 5 ft radius of dim light, then counterintuitively, she can hide in the plain sight of all the creatures using Darkvision now -- but surely the creatures can see a 10 ft diameter of dim light moving around?

Maybe the DM has had extreme mercy on the SD and ruled that a prestidigitation cantrip can create illumination equivalent of a half-strength candle, lighting one 5x5 square with dim light. Now the SD can use both hands (no need to hold the candle), and she does not need to worry about the candle going out. But there is still a square of dim illumination moving around. Experienced players and DMs, how do you handle the SD moving around alone in the dark?

Close to her party, the SD has to be careful to stay within 10 ft of dim illumination, but the party's continual flame has a 20 ft radius, so she cannot get within 10 ft of the torch-bearer. In play, how careful are you to track exactly which squares have dim illumination? Is keeping track of squares and their light levels tedious in actual play?

Say the party fights a gang of kobolds, and the NPC adept has a light cantrip. Say the party does not like limited visibility and has several continual flame spells going. Say the SD, with all the light going on, uses her darkness wand to lower light levels a notch within 20 ft of her. Maybe she casts the darkness on her Shadow Companion, so that she can position it JUST so on the battlefield to give her the dim illumination she craves (actually, she has to cast it on the ghost touch sword the Shadow Companion carries, since you have to cast darkness on an object).

How much does it slow down the game to have to track several moving light/dark sources in combat? Are creatures in dim illumination in concealment? That means lots of 20% miss chances to roll, right? Do the other players resent all this bookkeeping, in your experience? or the miss chances?

I really am asking this seriously, not trolling. I hope to hear from players with experience doing this. How does it work? And it all becomes even more important at higher levels, when the SD can Shadow Jump only to and from dimly lit squares, right? And especially at 10th level, when the Shadow Master ability grants DR 10/— and a +2 luck bonus on all saving throws -- only in squares with dim illumination.

And if every enemy in a fight has a torch or (at higher levels) a continual light spell, then the SD is pretty much (pardon my French) screwed, right? Then she just about HAS to get some magical darkness (but not deeper darkness) or not be able to use her powers, right?

Because in third edition, there was usually a lot of hand waving and the DM would pretty much let the SD be "within 10 feet of some sort of shadow," almost all the time. In my 3rd edition experience, an SD in total darkness was considered to be in shadow. Sure, you'd be in the desert at noon sometimes, or in a Daylight spell, and the DM would say, "No shadows in this area," but those times were pretty rare. I'm eager to hear from Pathfinder players as to how this all really works now.

Thanks!

[james maissen]

Cayzle wrote:

Here's my question, for players and DMs out there who have actually played a SD for real with this rule: How does this actually work in play?

I'll answer this with a similar question:

Have you played with DMs where all outdoor combat seemed to be in featureless plains?

Many 'keep it easy' by not also drawing in reasonable areas of difficult terrain, cover, and the like.

Of course this lessens the benefits to those with abilities that ignore or utilize such features.

At some point these DMs learn that this is important.. likely because a PC has an ability that is languishing.. and they improve their game.

This is the same thing..

How useful is low-light vision?

If you don't keep track of lighting or 'hand wave' it.. then it's a minor ability that might help encounter distance (if that's not hand-waved as well).

Meanwhile if you do keep track of lighting, then it becomes a *very* useful ability. As while some are suffering with concealment penalties, you are not.

Likewise you start to keep track of who actually has a light source, which just increases the game imho.

As to how you do so.. I'd suggest something like the Alea tools little colored disks. Have an understanding that each color is a certain 'brightness' or radius of light.

This will also help those who later play spell casters in seeing the radius of a fireball, etc.

In summary, I think the shadowdancer's need for the dim light will make the entire party aware of the lighting rules and not just the shadowdancer. This can complicate and improve their game as facets will no longer be 'hand-waved'.

-James

[Cayzle]

Good ideas, James! I'm looking forward to trying these out.

[Jessica Price]

Just a reminder to please keep the discussion on this civil. :-) Thanks!

[Ravingdork]

Cayzle wrote:

First of all, the SD cannot go ahead of the party and scout using HiPS, because in darkness, there are no squares of dim light that she needs for her power. If she carries a candle, which generates a 5 ft radius of dim light, then counterintuitively, she can hide in the plain sight of all the creatures using Darkvision now -- but surely the creatures can see a 10 ft diameter of dim light moving around?

If the shadowdancer is within darkness or dim illumination, then they don't even need hide in plain sight to hide.

Hardly counter intuitive at all.

[thejeff]

Ravingdork wrote:

Cayzle wrote:

First of all, the SD cannot go ahead of the party and scout using HiPS, because in darkness, there are no squares of dim light that she needs for her power. If she carries a candle, which generates a 5 ft radius of dim light, then counterintuitively, she can hide in the plain sight of all the creatures using Darkvision now -- but surely the creatures can see a 10 ft diameter of dim light moving around?

If the shadowdancer is within darkness or dim illumination, then they don't even need hide in plain sight to hide.

Hardly counter intuitive at all.

Unless someone has already seen them.

Or has darkvision.