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Dim light is a circumstance that objectively occurs when the lighting condition in the square in question, is one step below normal light. It does not matter if you have an ability to look through the dim light 'as if it were normal light', or that you consider the first x feet of dim light, as normal light, for the purposes of perception. The objective fact remains that the light in that area, is "dim light".
The Shadowdancer does not 'hide' in any mundane sense of the word. His ability to hide in plain sight is a supernatural ability, that can only be used when he is within a certain distance of dim light. This is supposed to tell us, that his powers of shadow, needs to be used somewhere where there is, you guessed it, shadow (or darkness, if you want to start arguing that lack of light = no shadow, just darkness).
"The attack had come quickly, and without sound. One moment we were talking about the barmaids of Rookmoor, and the next moment Shay'elle's scream had cut through the sounds of the woods, a scream that chilled my very soul. I turned, sword in hand, just in time to see Halaste drop to the ground clutching his throat. His torso was covered in blood, and I knew in my heart, that there was no hope for him. I looked in vain for his attacker, but saw noone. My heart raced, as I spun about, seeing my allies, the trees, the jagged roots of the forest floor, but no enemy.
Behind me, Korvin and Gwydion had moved to protect Shay'elle, who could do nothing but cry in shock and anguish. Then a familiar sound stilled my racing heart a bit, as Rafael began chanting. Abadar heard his prayers, as he had done so many times before, and I felt the warm glow of divine power within me, and I knew my allies felt the same. Whatever had attacked us we could deal with it. Then, my breath froze in my throat, as my eyes caught Rafael. He was smiling reasuringly at me, safe in his confidence in Abadar, but it was not Rafael that chilled me so, it was the shimmer of the blade. I cried out but it was too late, Rafael dropped his lantern and clutched his bleeding throat, the prayer beads of his holy symbol scattered to the ground. The lantern's flame sputtered, burning out before me, but I only saw it subconciously. My eyes were fixed on the face of Rafael's killer. He was grinning.
I knew not the feeling that came over me. I knew fear, I knew danger, but I had never felt such blind panic as that I felt when I saw my friends die. My hands moved on their own, steeled the grip on my sword, as my legs carried me towards the cloaked and grinning figure, charging. I felt tears in my eyes, and I cried for vengeance, though I know not what I said. The hooded figure stepped backwards, and as if a demon straight out of hell, the shadows of the trees rose from the ground, covering my foe in a tattered mess of tendril-like darkness. It stretched and twisted , and then, as if never there to begin with, it vanished, our foe gone with it. I swung my sword in rage, but the blade would bite nothing but air. Again my eyes darted about the forest. I called to Gwydion, but even the elf's keen eyes were being eluded. I spun in place and started backing towards them, but then I heard Korvin's warning cry. Too late. I felt myself back into the palm of someone's hand, and as it clutched my shoulder, i felt the cold edge of a blade on my neck. Then, nothing."
-The confessions of a ressurected shadowdancer victim
-Nearyn
I make no ruling as to how they hide. I don't care if they bring shadows from another realm or if they turn into shadow, or if they just hide in or around shadow. None of that matters to me nor has anything to do with my claim. My claim actually has nothing to due with HiPS.
My only claim is that the lighting condition is based on the observer. If a human was to attack the square indicated in my example, he would suffer a 20% miss chance. If an elf were to do it, he would not. If a half-orc was 65' away, he would also suffer a 20% miss chance. If the half-orc were 35' away, he would not.
In all these cases it is clear that the condition of the square is relevant to the observer.
My claim is only that it would also apply to the use of HiPS, or stealth in general. And in this case, that would extend to 10' from an area of dim light, as perceived by the observer.
@James: Assassin's HiPS is also (SU)...just wanted to avoid confusion with anyone that wanted or IS playing an assasssin
I make no ruling as to how they hide. I don't care if they bring shadows from another realm or if they turn into shadow, or if they just hide in or around shadow. None of that matters to me nor has anything to do with my claim. My claim actually has nothing to due with HiPS.
My only claim is that the lighting condition is based on the observer. If a human was to attack the square indicated in my example, he would suffer a 20% miss chance. If an elf were to do it, he would not. If a half-orc was 65' away, he would also suffer a 20% miss chance. If the half-orc were 35' away, he would not.
In all these cases it is clear that the condition of the square is relevant to the observer.
My claim is only that it would also apply to the use of HiPS, or stealth in general. And in this case, that would extend to 10' from an area of dim light, as perceived by the observer.
So your supposition is that if a human rogue has Hellcat Stealth, he's in an area with absolutely no light surrounded by a group of dwarf warriors, he says, "lol Darkvision", makes his stealth check, and walks right by them?
Also that the presence of a 1st level dwarf commoner prevents a 20th level wizard from using shadow walk?
@Komoda:
The lighting condition is -not- based on the observer. The lighting condition is objective.
Take a room of 10x10 feet. In this room there is a torch, meaning the lighting condition in this room is "normal light". No amount of fiddling with -any- kind of perception-types, no matter who is in this room, the lighting condition remains the same: "normal light".
Now imagine the same room, only someone put out the torch, putting the room in darkness, and giving it the lighting condition "darkness".
Now Mr. Observer, the objectively observing observer, walks into the room and looks around. Mr. Observer is a dwarf, so he has darkvision. He can see the room just fine (albeit in black and white), and is not adversely affected by the darkness, meaning he is not considered blinded. However, the light in the room has not changed. It is not different than what is was before. It still has the lighting condition "darkness" only the dwarf has a racial trait, that permits him see in it.
The same thing goes for Low-light, tremorsense or any method of perception. The same thing goes for every type of lighting condition. The lighting condition is a part of the environment. It is objective. A dimly lit room does not get brighter just because a character with lowlight vision walks into it. The character can merely see further than someone without low-light vision, because he has a trait that allows him to do so.
-Nearyn
Under stealth, one can make a stealth check if they are in dim light. We all seem to agree on that. So, 25' away from a torch and you are good to go.
But if an elf observes you, you are not in an area where you can stealth from him, because from his perspective, you are not in dim light. He suffers no miss chance. We all agree on this, correct?
Now add HiPS. The only thing it allows you to do is stealth up to 10' outside of the dim light. It gives you a larger area that you can stealth within.
If you apply the same pattern of rulings as the elf observing a normal stealth check at 25' away from a torch, you would apply the check as I have been suggesting.
Now I ask you if you agree that the above is logical? I am not asking if you would rule this way, or even if you think it is correct, but does it in fact appear to apply the rule in a consistent manner?
I will agree, however, that there is no RAW either way.
In the real world light is always subjective to the observer. One person with dilated pupils will see more light than another without. In game light levels are all about what we can see, not some scientific measurement as to the photons or whatever makes up light.
Logic does not seem to agree with the idea that the vision type does not matter.
On the other hand, the feat Hellcat Stealth and the spell Shadow Walk are problems with the way I would rule it. I chalk it up to a miniscule detail, albeit important one, that the designers did not consider when designing the game. I had never used or read either until today.
This is a great discussion, you guys are bringing up a lot of valid points and concerns!
I will agree, however, that there is no RAW either way.
Your failure to understand the RAW does not mean that there is no RAW on this matter.
Under stealth, one can make a stealth check if they are in dim light. We all seem to agree on that. So, 25' away from a torch and you are good to go.
If we assume total darkness, and a single, solitary torch shedding light in a 20ft radius, then yes. the 20% concealment that occurs 25+ ft away from the torch, offered by the "dim light" condition, allows a character in it to make a stealth check.
But if an elf observes you, you are not in an area where you can stealth from him, because from his perspective, you are not in dim light. He suffers no miss chance. We all agree on this, correct?
The character can still attempt a stealth, because he is in an area of "dim light" and he is afforded 20% cover. The elf TREATS 40ft around the torch as normal light (even though the lighting condition 20+ft away from it IS STILL "dim light"). This means the elf can continue to observe the rogue unhindered, meaning the rogue has still made his stealth check, but it holds no importance for the elf. If the elf had a human companion standing next to him, the stealth check would be relevant for the human, who would have to beat it with opposed perception to see the stealthed character.
Now add HiPS. The only thing it allows you to do is stealth up to 10' outside of the dim light. It gives you a larger area that you can stealth within.
If you apply the same pattern of rulings as the elf observing a normal stealth check at 25' away from a torch, you would apply the check as I have been suggesting.
A shadowdancer can use the Stealth skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of an area of dim light, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.
Emphasis mine. This means that by RAW, the shadowdancer does not need to have concealment to use his stealth skill any longer. He can use his stealth, even while being observed. He only needs to be within 10ft of an area of dim light. Not an area "percieved as dim light, by the creatures the shadowdancer is attempting to hide from", just "an area of dim light". There is not alot to misunderstand here, it is really quite plain. Every elf on the continent could be looking at the shadowdancer through magically enhanced binoculars, and he would still be able to stealth, provided he was within 10ft of an area of dim light. RAW, plain and simple.
-Nearyn
HiPS (Su) trumps Darkvision (Ex).HiPS (Su or Ex) has NOTHING to do with Darkvision. It has to do with the actual presence of dim light within range. Nothing on the part of a potential observer.
-James
Did I imply something I wasn't aware of? I thought I was simply posting a one liner stating my opinion without hinting at all about what my reasoning or argument would be. A one liner that I only put here so I could be sure to find my way back to this thread and post my full argument.
I generally agree with most of what I have seen you post on these forums, to include this thread, but you have assumed a great deal of meaning that I did not intend. I have had the HiPS vs. DV argument many times, I am sure you have read some of my previous posts, and our general understanding of how these things interact with eachother aligns. I was simply making a blunt, undetailed statement of my opinion: HiPS (Su) is the only HiPS being discussed in this thread so I specifically referenced it, and it does indeed trump Darkvision (Ex).
That said, I will be posting (or rather re-posting) the analysis of why I think HiPS trumps DV.
@ All of you who think and are arguing that Darkvision trumps HiPS:
Firstly, here is why Ranger HiPS would be utterly unaffected by Darkvision. Ranger HiPS has exactly ZERO to do with shadows and concealment. It has 100% to do with the Ranger's intimate knowledge of his Favored Terrains. When in his Favored Terrain he can use Camouflage and HiPS whether it is in bright light, normal light, dim light, or darkness and no amount of seeing through shadows will affect that in any way.
....
Now there are several completely separate reasons why I think that Shadowdancer and Assassin HiPS would trump Darkvison. Let's examine the actual text defining Darkvision. A lot of people get hung up on that one sentence in the Vision and Light section of the rules; the part I have in bold:
Characters with darkvision (dwarves and half-orcs) can see lit areas normally as well as dark areas within 60 feet. A creature can't hide within 60 feet of a character with darkvision unless it is invisible or has cover.
But this isn't what Darkvision is, it is just a simple explanation of how Darkvision interacts with the normal, non-magical, ambient light conditions of the world. It does not take into account in any way, special cases or abilities; it is just how DV interacts with the light conditions. Now what I want to draw your attention to, and what most people tend to avoid or forget, is the text in the Glossary section of rules describing what DV actually is. Pay particular attention to the highlighted sections:
Darkvision is the extraordinary ability to see with no light source at all, out to a range specified for the creature. Darkvision is black-and-white only (colors cannot be discerned). It does not allow characters to see anything that they could not see otherwise—invisible objects are still invisible, and illusions are still visible as what they seem to be. Likewise, darkvision subjects a creature to gaze attacks normally. The presence of light does not spoil darkvision.
And now I want you to look back up to the first quote and pay particular attention to the first sentence: "Characters with darkvision can see lit areas normally as well as dark areas..." When we combine those parts we have some fluff, and we have some mechanics. The mechanics are what is important here, and they are:
1) DV allows you to see in dark areas (dim light, darkness) as well as you would normally see in lit areas (bright light, normal light). Which means that while shadows still exist in the radius of their vision, they see everything within that radius AS IF it were in fact normal light. And that is all it means. They don't have beams of light coming from their eyes melting away the shadows. The shadows are still there, they just don't affect the accuracy of Darkvision sight the way they affect basic and low-light vision sight. (This by the way is 100% the reason why you can't use Stealth within the radius of DV unless you have cover or invisibility. It has nothing to do with dissolving the shadows in that radius. It has to do with you being able to see as if you were in the normal lighting condition. Read the normal lighting condition, it says you may not use Stealth without cover or invisibility.)
2) Darkvision allows you to see with no light source at all. So there is no light and you can still see. You are not producing flames from your eyes that burn away shadows. If you wanted to explain it the way Night Vision Goggles work, that is fine, but it still has no actual affect on the mechanics. You are not producing any kind of visible light that would change the lighting conditions in the radius of your vision. The shadows are still there, it is still dim light or darkness, you are simply able to see regardless of that fact.
3) Lastly, darkvision does not allow you to see anything you could not otherwise see of which, magical effects would be the most common things in that category, but it's not exclusive. This is just saying you aren't gaining any type of magical vision; you are simply able to see in darkness as if you were in normal light.
....
Now after breaking Darkvision down in that manner, why do I feel Shadowdancer and Assassin HiPS are both able to trump Darkvision? I would think it is fairly obvious where I am going with this but I will break that down as well:
1) Darkvision is (EX) and Shadowdancer/Assassin HiPS is (SU). I generally don't allow natural (EX) abilities that a number of PCs, NPCs, and Monsters are born with to outclass a hard earned (SU) ability that my players have spent a great deal of time and character resources achieving (unless it is specifically stated, as it is in the darkness spell for instance, but in the case of DV vs HiPS it is not). That would be a fairly stupid, dick-ish, and anti-PC thing to do IMO.
2) The description of Darkvision actually comes out and explicitly states that it is not magical and does not allow you to see through magical effects. HiPS (SU) is a magical effect, all Supernatural Abilities are:
Supernatural Abilities (Su): Supernatural abilities are magical but not spell-like. Supernatural abilities are not subject to spell resistance and do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). A supernatural ability's effect cannot be dispelled and is not subject to counterspells.
3) Darkvision eliminates a creature's ability to hide based on the concealment granted by the lighting conditions. However, Shadowdancer and Assassin HiPS allows them to use Stealth based on a whole different set of parameters. They are not using the concealment granted by the shadows. They are using the empowerment of a magical ability granted to them by mere proximity to shadows. As explicitly stated above, Darkvision does not eliminate the shadows in the area, it simply allows the creature to see as if in normal lighting conditions, which eliminates the effect of concealment only. Again, the Shadowdancer/Assassin is not using concealment to hide; he is using the presence of the shadows, which are still very much there.
4) Lastly, Darkvision only allows you to see normally in dark areas as if it were a lit area, but does not allow you to see anything you could not otherwise see, magical or not. So I pose this example: A creature with normal vision is looking at a Shadowdancer who is standing in normal light but is also within 10' of dim light. The Shadowdancer attempts Stealth and is successful, he disappears. No one argues that this isn't an acceptable use of the HiPS ability. It is exactly what the ability states the Shadowdancer may do. He can be standing in normal light (where generally he would need cover or invisibility to hide) and use Stealth as long as he is within 10' of dim light. So I ask you this, why do you say that the Shadowdancer can hide in broad daylight from the creature with normal or low-light vision, but can't hide in shadows from the creature with darkvision? Before you answer, think carefully about what I said about DV. It doesn't allow you to see anything you couldn’t normally see, and it only allows you to see as if you there were normal light conditions. (IE: If the guy with NORMAL vision can't see you in NORMAL LIGHT, then the guy with DARKVISION can't see you in DIM LIGHT/DARKNESS.)
So I reitterate: HiPS trumps Darkvision.
What you are asking is utterly irrelivant. Why would HiPS, which allows you to disappear from PLAIN SIGHT while being OBSERVED trump something that doesn't rely on SIGHT to percieve you? HiPS is a VISUAL effect, it won't protect you from perception via NON-VISUAL stimulus. However, since you asked:
So I'll ask again, Does HiPS trump blindsight?
Some creatures possess blindsight, the extraordinary ability to use a nonvisual sense (or a combination senses) to operate effectively without vision. Such senses may include sensitivity to vibrations, acute scent, keen hearing, or echolocation. This makes invisibility and concealment (even magical darkness) irrelevant to the creature (though it still can't see ethereal creatures). This ability operates out to a range specified in the creature description.
Blindsight (Ex) This ability is similar to blindsense, but is far more discerning. Using nonvisual senses, such as sensitivity to vibrations, keen smell, acute hearing, or echolocation, a creature with blindsight maneuvers and fights as well as a sighted creature. Invisibility, darkness, and most kinds of concealment are irrelevant, though the creature must have line of effect to a creature or object to discern that creature or object. The ability's range is specified in the creature's descriptive text. The creature usually does not need to make Perception checks to notice creatures within range of its blindsight ability. Unless noted otherwise, blindsight is continuous, and the creature need do nothing to use it. Some forms of blindsight, however, must be triggered as a free action. If so, this is noted in the creature's description. If a creature must trigger its blindsight ability, the creature gains the benefits of blindsight only during its turn.
If HiPS does not use the concealment granted by shadows but a magic ability granted by proximity to dim light, then it would seem that "This makes invisibility and concealment (even magical darkness) irrelevant to the creature" would not apply. You're not concealed, you're magically hidden in plain sight.
Right, magically hidden from plain SIGHT. Doesn't mean I don't make vibrations when I breath, doesn't mean I stop having an odor, doesn't mean I don't make sounds when I move, doesn't mean I have no physical pressence to show up for echolocation.
Is there a difference between this claim and the argument that darkvision doesn't work?
Yeah, how about it's Daredevil vision which is a good deal different than Darkvision.
Tremorsense OTOH would work. It doesn't remove concealment it "can automatically pinpoint the location of anything that is in contact with the ground."
Blingsight, Blindsense, Tremorsense, and Scent all allow creatures to percieve your pressence without rolling perception, which means your HiPS/Stealth check is a mute point. That is actually why D&D 3.5 had a feat called Darkstalker that allowed a character to force even creatures with these senses to roll Perception against their Stealth, or be unable to see/sense them.
In the case of Blindsight you have perfect sight without the need for visual cues, Stealth of any kind is useless against it. In the cases of Blindsense and Tremorsense the creature only knows what square you are in, they still must roll Perception to SEE you. If they win the check they strike you as normal, otherwise they attack your square and have a 50% miss chance against you since they know where you are but can't actually see you. In the case of Scent they just know you are in their radius, then have to track you like a Ranger would until they can spot you.
@shadowlord: Very nice sir...your explanation was one of the best written and thought out ones I have read...granted my GM explained it to me with the same reasoning in like 5 sentences lol...but that should clear some things up for some
Edit:Just FYI if anyone wants to get around scent and tremorsense...check out trackless boots and boots of the soft step ;)
You also "usually does not need to make Perception checks to notice creatures within range of" Darkvision or regular vision, for that matter. Unless the creature is hiding.
Sure you do, it's just that the Perception DC to see someone standing in plain sight is 0 so no one ever rolls. Check for yourself... it's there.
"most forms of concealment are irrelevant", which implies that some are relevant and I thought you'd just finished claiming that HiPS didn't rely on concealment anyway. It's not invisibility. or darkness.
It doesn't rely on concealment, it IS however a VISUAL effect and Darkvision is a visually based sense. The other senses you mentioned are NON-VISUAL so HiPS doesn't help. Your question was a bit like asking why the blind guy can tell he's talking to a half-orc when it's disguised as an elf with an alter self spell. The answer is he doesn't see your silly disguise, he's blind... he can smell you though, and you smell like a half-orc. He can hear you too and that isn't the musical voice of an elf. Visual vs non-visual, I think I stated that pretty clearly in my post above.
Damned if I know what kind of senses let you see someone using HiPS since
Are you really trying to figure it out?
it's not at all clear how you're hiding. You're not in darkness or darkvision would help, you're not invisible or you could be detected by See Invisibility. I wonder about True Seeing. Probably not.
It's magic, but it's not any particular kind of magic.
It's pretty clear; hiding using a Stealth check. HiPS just adds a small advantage. There are plenty of ways to counter a Stealth check, even if you take out lowlight vision and darkvision. Perception is a good one, the Daylight spell, Glitterdust, an Antimagic Field would take care of the (Su) part (bringing LLV and DV back into full power), and I would probably rule that (RAI) True Seeing should work. The people who argue DV should overpower HiPS always act like a Stealth check is some impossible obstacle to overcome. At least with a Shadowdancer or Assassin all you have to do is eliminate the shadows in the area. What would you do against a Ranger in his favored terrain? The Ranger's version is (Ex) and FAR more powerful than the (Su) version. What about the HiPS advanced rogue talent that is just like the Ranger version? The only thing you can do against those is hope for a good Perception roll, or hope you spontaneously gain Blindsight.
Go watch the movie Ninja Assassin, then you will have an idea what Shadowdancer and Assassin HiPS should look/feel like in game play. If that is too far fetched for you... maybe try a game without magic.
...
Regardless, I have a perfectly logical and by RAW argument posted above demonstrating that HiPS does trump DV. If you can create a RAW based, logical argument, point for point I would be happy to hear it and debate this further with you. There is no need to hijack the thread with things that are irrelivant to the argument.
...
@ the OP
Sounds to me like your Shadowdancer is playing correctly. It can be a hard thing to deal with if you are unprepared, but there are plenty of ways to counter it.
My point has never actually been that darkvision sees through HiPS, though I can understand why it might appear that I meant that. I only suggest that the area of DIM LIGHT to a human may not be DIM LIGHT to an elf.
Just as a human can make a stealth check 25' away from a torch that automatically fails against an elf because the human is not in DIM LIGHT as far as the elf is concerned, I feel that the human would automatically fail his HiPS stealth check against the elf at the same distance because he is still 15' away from DIM LIGHT as far as the elf is concerned.
I feel that if the human were 30' away from the torch he would be able to be successful in his HiPS stealth check against the elf because the human would be 10' away from DIM LIGHT as far as the elf is concerned. To be clear, if the human was 10' from any location that the elf perceived as DIM LIGHT, then I agree completely that the human could use HiPS to make a stealth check that he would not normally be able to make against an elf.
The above gives the human the advantage of HiPS without negating the elf's Low Light Vision. The human gains a benefit and the elf gains a benefit.
To rule it another way simply negates the bonus of Low Light Vision. This is the core of why I don't think it works that way. There is nothing in HiPS that says one should negate that ability.
I feel that HiPS DOES work against characters with Low Light Vision, it just doesn't work in exactly the same areas as it does against characters with normal vision.
As to darkvision, I would apply the rule the same way. That would in effect mean that the human could not use HiPS within 50' of a dwarf with 60' darkvision. The dwarf does not perceive anything within 60' as DIM LIGHT. So, assuming a torch 100' away, the first 60' is normal light, the next 20' is DIM LIGHT and the final 20' is Normal Light. The human could use HiPS anywhere from 50' to 90' away from the dwarf as that area would either be DIM LIGHT or 10' from DIM LIGHT.
The same applies for invisibility. If the elf has true seeing, a human cannot be invisible as far as the elf is concerned. The human is still invisible, but the elf just ignores it.
So the type of vision does not trump HiPS, I never meant that. I only meant that the type of vision sets the conditions for HiPS. To rule otherwise, I feel, would be to ignore any benefit given to special forms of vision, which again, I feel, is outside the scope of HiPS.
Just as a human can make a stealth check 25' away from a torch that automatically fails against an elf because the human is not in DIM LIGHT as far as the elf is concerned, I feel that the human would automatically fail his HiPS stealth check against the elf at the same distance because he is still 15' away from DIM LIGHT as far as the elf is concerned.
You would be wrong. I understand the point you are trying to make, but it is simply, factually not supported by the rules. The rules are clear on how hide in plain sight works, and it works as I, and many others have tried to describe to you, several times. You are free to rule however you like in games where you are the master, however that does not change the RAW.
In order to comprehend why a shadowdancer can still stealth, despite the elf having Low-light vision you need to realize that the shadowdancer is not hiding IN the area where he is harder to see. He is using a magical ability to vanish, even though he is being observed by the elf. This magical ability can only work while he is within 10ft of an area of shadow (dim light), because he is a Shadowdancer, and his abilities are powered by a magical connection to shadow. The elf can see further into the dim light than a human would be able to, but this is inconsequential for the shadowdancer, who does not use the shadow to hide IN, but uses it as the source of his power to vanish(read: use stealth), depsite being observed.
This is the rules forum. Here we objectively assert facts based on the rules of the game. It is well within your rights to houserule, but that does not concern this topic, as it is within the rules forum, not the houserules forum. If you want to continue arguing your point of view, please provide proof of where in the rules, your viewpoint is supported.
-Nearyn
The Ranger/Rogue version of HiPS does not have the "can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind" part? It's just "can use the Stealth skill even while being observed."
I might remember my environment-fu wrong, but don't alot of terrain offer abundant opportunity for concealment or cover? Not to mention forests, which grant near-constant concealment.
I might remember my environment-fu wrong, but don't alot of terrain offer abundant opportunity for concealment or cover? Not to mention forests, which grant near-constant concealment.The Ranger/Rogue version of HiPS does not have the "can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind" part? It's just "can use the Stealth skill even while being observed."
Many do. Though even then I'd have trouble with "I use HiPS to hide in the underbrush standing right in front of the guy I hit last round." Taking even a couple of steps away and disappearing into the bushes works for me.
That's why I referenced "underground" and "featureless dungeon room". Not all possible favorite terrains guarantee something to hide behind in every square.
But the point is, the (Ex)HiPS ability appears to require something to hide behind, even if you assume that something is available.
I've just read the (ex) version, and it does not appear(to my reading) that it does. You see, usually stealth does not require you to hide behind cover, merely to prevent being observed. If you are being observed, you cannot stealth with regards to the person observing you. The rules then follow this statement, by telling us ways to prevent that, like getting concealment, hiding behind something(for cover)or distract the opponent, so you can dash into hiding. So whatever method you have of avoiding observation, will enable you to use stealth. Now if we compare this to the Hide in Plain Sight(Ex) rules which state that:
While in any of his favored terrains, a ranger of 17th level or higher can use the Stealth skill even while being observed.
So as long as the Ranger is within his favored terrain, he can stealth, despite being observed by whatever he is trying to hide from. Since he can do this (ignore being observed) he no longer needs to do duck for cover or find concealment, since these are meant to prevent him from being observed, and that holds no relevance any longer.
I completely agree that this does seem completely whack at first glance, but then i stopped and double checked. The vanilla ranger only gets Hide in Plain Sight(Ex) at level 17. At this point, the ranger is not a human with a bow and a longsword, he is a Predator. His ability to match perfectly with his environment is an expression of his 3-levels-from-capstone awesomeness. I think it's better for your immersion if you chalk it up to high-level spectacularity. Like how a Barbarian can be caught in a dragon's jaws and take a point blank breath attack, that would melt a stone building, without being even halfway dead yet.
-Nearyn
Nearyn - I am not looking to house rule it. I believe that my examples and logic give a basis to prove my claim.
I understand that you disagree. That is fine. I would not say you are "houseruling" it because you disregard any benefit of Low Light Vision or Darkvision. I would say that you feel those are the rules.
I would say we disagree. Using my interpretation, all rules regarding vision are applied. Using your interpretation, Low Light and Darkvision do not apply at all. Can we agree upon this disagreement? Because that is the crux of our disagreement.
The facts, as you state them, are not facts. The Elf does not just see "further into DIM LIGHT", it actually perceived areas of DIM LIGHT as Normal Light. The fact is, to the elf, IT IS NOT DIM LIGHT. That is factually different than just seeing further into DIM LIGHT.
And maybe this is where we disagree. The CRB states:
Double the effective radius of bright light, normal light, and dim light for such characters.
That does not mean the area is just treated as Normal Light rather then DIM LIGHT. It means the area effected by the light is double as perceived by these characters.
In all likelihood, the designers did not consider the ramifications of other types of vision.
Dim light/shadows exist independently of the viewer. It's not like they case to exist just because you can't see them. They are still there. Believing otherwise often relies on faulty logic, just like a little kid who thinks the monster will cease existing just because he closes his eyes and hides under the bed sheet.
(And I also believe that creatures with darkvision/low-light vision can still shadows/dim light.)
@thejeff: You made me doubt my own reading with your arguments, so I looked again.
If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth. If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to us
The above is the rules for using stealth.
A shadowdancer can use the Stealth skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of an area of dim light, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.
While in any of his favored terrains, a ranger of 17th level or higher can use the Stealth skill even while being observed.
A rogue with this talent can select a single terrain from the ranger’s favored terrain list. She is a master at hiding in that terrain, and while within that terrain, she can use the Stealth skill to hide, even while being observed.
At 8th level, an assassin can use the Stealth skill even while being observed. As long as he is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, an assassin can hide himself from view in the open without having anything to actually hide behind. He cannot, however, hide in his own shadow.
From these 4 quotes we see that the Shadowdancer and Assassin both get the same version of Hide in Plain sight. Both are (Su) and both have almost the exact same wording. There is no difference between these two, that would affect the game.
The Rogue talent "Hide in Plain Sight" and the Ranger class feature by the same name, are both (Ex), however they are different, in that they have different prerequisites, and offer different benefits. The Rogue gets to pick a favored terrain, the Ranger does not.
Now we compare these abilities to the normal use of stealth. Normally you cannot stealth if you are being observed. However, if you manage to break the observation, or hinder it in some fashion, you get to roll stealth. Getting concealment means the enemy cannot see you properly, hiding behind cover means the enemy cannot see you properly, and making the enemy look somewhere else, means he cannot see you properly.
Most importantly, we recognize that the only thing, as per the Stealth rules, that can keep us from rolling our stealth, is us being observed. If we are being observed, we do not get to make stealth checks. This is the only rule stopping us from hiding in plain sight, without the ability.
Now while 3 of the 4 Hide in Plain Sight abilities above are obviously different, all have in common that they remove the only restriction we have on our stealth skill. With any of these 4 abilities, we can stealth while being observed, provided we fulfil the requirements of the ability (either being within 10ft of shadow, or by being in our favored terrain).
In conclusion: Without any special features or abilities, you cannot Stealth while being observed. If have a Hide in Plain Sight ability, and fulfil its requirement, you can Stealth while being observed. So if you fulfil the requirement of your Hide in Plain Sight ability, you can always Stealth.
Note that there may be spells or special abilities keeping you from stealthing, despite fulfilling your Hide in Plain Sight requirement. I don't know, but I know there are several that hinder your ability to stealth. However these deal only with modifiers to the roll and not whether you are permitted to make it, or not.
-Nearyn
Nearyn - I am not looking to house rule it. I believe that my examples and logic give a basis to prove my claim.
If you want to argue that your point of view is supported by the rules, post evidence.
I understand that you disagree. That is fine. I would not say you are "houseruling" it because you disregard any benefit of Low Light Vision or Darkvision. I would say that you feel those are the rules.
If I were to disregard any benefit of Low-Light Vision or Darkvision, I would certainly say I was "houseruling" it. But I am not disregarding the benefits, in any way, shape or form. Creatures with Low-Light Vision counts an area of light, as extending twice as far as it actually does, for the purposes of concealment and making perception checks. This means that a person within 40ft of a torchwielding elf has no concealment from the dim light, but a character 45ft away, does. Also the elf only takes a -2 penalty to his perception check when looking at things more than 40ft away from him.
I would say we disagree. Using my interpretation, all rules regarding vision are applied. Using your interpretation, Low Light and Darkvision do not apply at all. Can we agree upon this disagreement? Because that is the crux of our disagreement.
No we do not agree. Using my interpretation all rules regarding vision are applied. Where we disagree, is that I do -not- believe that when a cat enters a room with a torch in it, all shadows immediately retreat 20ft.
The Elf does not just see "further into DIM LIGHT", it actually perceived areas of DIM LIGHT as Normal Light. The fact is, to the elf, IT IS NOT DIM LIGHT. That is factually different than just seeing further into DIM LIGHT.
You are correct, and I was aware that this was the rule. However, I formulated myself poorly, and as a result did not convey the message properly. This still has no impact whatsoever on Hide in Plain Sight.
And maybe this is where we disagree. The CRB states:
Double the effective radius of bright light, normal light, and dim light for such characters.That does not mean the area is just treated as Normal Light rather then DIM LIGHT. It means the area effected by the light is double as perceived by these characters.
What is your point?
In all likelihood, the designers did not consider the ramifications of other types of vision.
I cannot put enough exclamationmarks behind the word "Hah", so I won't try. "In all likelyhood" you have not bothered to read the many posts made in this thread, that carefully explains what is wrong with your ruling, in regards to the rules, or you would begin to realize that, maybe, the fault is not with the designers.
-Nearyn
I have a related question I was going to post, but thought I'd try to piggy back on here in the interest of space.
Under the rules there are 5 situations where you can get a sneak attack:
When you attack before the opponent has acted in combat that encounter
When you feint an opponent
When you're invisible
When you're flanking
When the target would otherwise be denied his Dex bonus for some reason.My question is this: when you are successfully stealthing and unobserved by any enemies, are you considered invisible?
I ask because taking Shadowdancer levels after being a Rogue means this is about to come up frequently for me. Yet it appears that nowhere in the rules do you actually get a sneak attack from sneaking up on someone already engaged in some form of combat. I understand why you can't be considered sneaking while attacking, but I don't get how being undetectable up until the second I stab with my rapier gives the guy enough time to react, while running up 30 feet in front of the guy and swinging does not give him enough time if its the start of combat.
I can't figure this one out, so some clarification would be much appreciated.
Right, Brutedude.
Note that under the current RAW, HiPS, using Stealth, does NOT make your foe lose his DEX or be flatfooted. Only Invisibility does.
If you read the Stealth blog they made this clear. They hoped to allow it, bring in a new condition called "hidden", but the debate raged on for pages and i think you can see in this thread why. Too many wierd stuff, not an easy change to make.
Mind you, it does appear to be RAI that you do get SA for HiPS. But not under RAW.
Thanks for the help. I went back and found the playtest here which looks very promising. http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lcml&page=9?Stealth-Playtest-Round -TwoStealth#407
And James Jacobs response:
So to sum this up as best as I can understand it, logically you can infer from different conditions that being unobserved would deny an opponent their dexterity. Unfortunately nowhere in the rules does it come out and say that, so I strict reading of just playing by the rules would mean you can't get a sneak attack off by...This is the extent of it for now. We have no plans at this point to put it into the PRD or do much else with it at this point—feel free to use the variant rules of this playtest in your games as you wish... but it's not going to be something we officially adopt into the game, since that type of change goes from errata to re-design.
And the time for re-design is not now.
Right, They wanted to FAQ the rules to say that it did, but as the debate here shows, it wasn’t an easy change. So currently, under the RAW (or PFS), HiPS does not make your foe lose his DEX. The rules are pretty clear: " It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking..."
But your DM can easily decide to play it that way, it’s RAI, afterall.
Stealth trumps all forms of detection (assuming the perception check does not surpass the stealth check).
This is incorrect.
The creature with blindsense usually does not need to make Perception checks to notice and locate creatures within range of its blindsense ability, provided that it has line of effect to that creature
-It doesn't matter if you're wrapped in shadow , the dog can still smell you and you're still showing up on the bats sonar. There's usually a perception check to see the rogue = to their stealth check. Blindsense specifically says you don't need to bother to make the check.
Some argue against scent doing the same, but there are a few items in the game who's sole purpose is to force creatures with scent to make a perception check to notice a creature.
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I don't think being observed is the only thing that can keep you from using stealth. Using only the rules for the normal skill, with no HiPS or other special abilities, you need some form of cover or concealment. The "not being observed" requirement means that even if you have cover/concealment you can't hide from someone who is already aware of you. There are various rules in the Vision and Light section and the sections on Cover and Concealment that clarify (and confuse) this.
I realize this is speculation on my part, and I apologize for introducing vagueness into my argument, but I always assumed that the rules for stealth stated:
If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth
Was the statement of why, in some cases, Stealth could not be used. And that:
Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth. If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth
was a follow-up statement, explaining what could done to alleviate the problem of having someone observing you.
And the rules for Vision and Light are basically copy-pasted from 3.5, however back in those days it made more sense. You see, back then Stealth was two skills: Hide and Move Silently. And Perception was Spot and Listen. The Vision and Light rules in 3.5 stated that you could not HIDE if you had no cover or concealment, in broad daylight. However you could still move silently. So if someone was old and had a hard time seeing, or was light-sensitive (pick any reason really), you could still use Move Silently to tippy-toe past them, on an open field, provided they did not actually Spot you.
The lack of facing rules means that for combat purposes, any enemy has perfect 360 degree vision, but outside of combat, I imagine the intent was not to say players were not allowed to move silently, just because they were in a well-lit hallway. Your contrived example inspired me to do my own, so I hope you'll indulge me.
Contrived Example:
Billy the Rogue is breaking into a prison, to get his friend Tom the Fighter out. There is a hallway, ending in a celldoor, inside Tom is being kept. Outside the celldoor there is a sleeping guard, leaning against the wall. Other than that, the hallway is blank and featureless, however it is lit by a daylight spell (for argument's sake).
Now according to the rules, sleeping confers the helpless condition and no other condition. Since helpless does not grant other people concealment, and the room has the light condition bright light, Billy can not try to sneak past the guard. Since the hallway is also just a straight corridor, he cannot get any concealment, and as such, Billy is forced to walk noisily past the guard, who needs to make a DC 10 perception check, to notice Billy, whereupon the guard wakes up and sounds the alarm.
JJ, Sean K, and the rest of the Scooby Gang are playtesting their new game, when this situation comes up.
"Wait a minute, this is stupid" one of them remarks, and the others agree.
Instead of having this contrived nonsense in their game, they make a rule and write it in the Stealth skill. The rule prevents a character from using stealth if he is currently being observed, but that is the only thing preventing it. They conclude that this is smart, since if Billy had entered the hallway, and the guard had been wide awake, Billy had no feasable way of hiding. They then make a follow-up statement, detailing how you can circumvent this observation, so players can do cool, sneaky stuff like dashing into shadows and trying to hide. Or Run around corners (cover), and press themselves into a niche, hoping the guards that turn the corner a moment later, will run past them, down the alleyway. Alternatively a sufficiently bluffy character could feign shock, point to the sky and yell "Dragon!!" and hope to turn the guards' heards long enough to disappear into a crowd.
If we assume that this is what the rules are supposed to mean, suddenly the game makes alot more sense, and becomes quite a bit more fun. Also the rules for light conditions makes sense if we think about it this way, so everybody wins.
-Nearyn
When talking about disregarding Low Light and Darkvision, I was speaking in reference to HiPS, not in general. My point was that with your interpretation it is no more difficult to hide from an elf than a human, assuming they both have the same perception check, while using HiPS.
As already stated, I do not agree.
And light is 100% subjective. While light levels do not change, what one sees with one vision is completely different than what one sees with another type of vision. Light cannot just be measured by intensity or amout, it is always measured by the sensitivity of the device as well.
A night vision device, not infrared, is a perfect example. There is no more light, yet more light can be seen. Everything is brighter.
The maps that I provided are correct. They clearly show how the world view of the elf is different than the human. I can understand, but disagree, with your interpretation. My intrepretation is not illogical. As the elf sees it, the black dot on my map is not within 10' of dim light. Thereby it does not afford someone the conditions required to use HiPS against the elf.
This follows the logic that the black dot would also not allow a person to use HiPS against a creature with blindsight or tremorsense either.
@Komoda:
Okay, I will give it one last shot.
I want you to do an experiment with me. Find a lamp, then find an opague object. have the lamp shine light directly on a wall, and place the object between the lamp and the wall. You will notice the object casts a shadow. If I had the "Hide in Plain Sight(Su)" ability, I could magically use that shadow, via my mystical shadow-powers, and seem to disappear before your very eyes. The only requirement is that I am within 10' of that shadow, the lamp and the object are making on your wall.
If your friend brings his cat(cats have LLvision) into the room, that shadow is not moving. Do you understand that? It does not move, simply because the cat is looking at it. It is still there, on the wall. Do the experiment yourself if you don't believe me.
IF that shadow is still there, I can seem to disappear(use my stealth skill) against anyone in the room: you, your friend, and your friend's cat. I can do this because I am not relying on your inability to percieve what is going on IN the shadow. I am not hiding IN that area of shadow on your wall. I am hiding right where I stood before, 10' to the left of that shadow, because the shadow on the wall is fueling my magic, and I used that magic to HIDE IN PLAIN SIGHT.
-Nearyn
