We're in the early stages of Rise of the Runelords but this problem is a universal one which I expect to come up again in other campaigns (so please don't arbitrarily kick it)... we have a strong group of players and one of them is running a character type I haven't had much experience dealing with or preparing for as a GM - a Kitsune Sorcerer with the Fey Bloodline.
The character's backstory is excellent, she role-plays well, has very clear strengths and weaknesses and has carved out a very useful role in the group... but what she does she does SO well.
Laughing Touch has no save and at just 6th level her DC's for the following spells are:
Daze (DC 21)
Charm Person (DC 20)
Hideous Laughter (DC 23)
Hold Person (DC 24)
Those numbers look to rise exponentially, especially the charms and compulsions... and therein lies my problem. A single missed saving throw against a difficult DC and all of a sudden a key lieutenant is spilling the beans on everything or a BBEG is rendered helpless. I expect the problems to get worse as all of the 'X Person' spells affect Ogres, Trolls and Giants of which the upcoming books seem to have many.
I abhor the thought of tailoring encounters to counter the one thing a well-built, well-played character can do or tailoring encounters to specifically focus on the things they cannot... punishing a player for doing a good job in character design or in-game play is against my principles as a GM... but at the same time, she is making many encounters far easier than they should be, advancing the storyline at a faster pace and revealing mysteries that the players should have to put some real effort into solving. I'd really appreciate any help from other GM's who have found an effective way to challenge this type of character without marginalizing them...
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Having dealt with a similar character in a Kingmaker campaign, there really is no way to prevent the success.
If you want to challenge the PC, use ambushes, lots of ranged attackers, and poison.
With Runelords full of high-damage melee guys, your best bet is probably to let her succeed as she can, and play absolutely ruthless with the critters. The Grauls in particular can be quite effective, even if one or two of them get "turned".
In short, don't try to marginalize the powerful sorcerer, there are plenty of encounters that will limit her effectiveness soon enough. Fortress of the Stone Giants, in particular.
Having dealt with a similar character in a Kingmaker campaign, there really is no way to prevent the success.
If you want to challenge the PC, use ambushes, lots of ranged attackers, and poison.
With Runelords full of high-damage melee guys, your best bet is probably to let her succeed as she can, and play absolutely ruthless with the critters. The Grauls in particular can be quite effective, even if one or two of them get "turned".
In short, don't try to marginalize the powerful sorcerer, there are plenty of encounters that will limit her effectiveness soon enough. Fortress of the Stone Giants, in particular.
One of the problems I'm already dealing with is the amount of information that can be gleaned from a charmed foe... I suppose the best option is to determine (and possibly limit) what different enemies might know - not completely, but certain strategic omissions might be necessary.
As a group, we have a number of house rules designed to streamline play a bit and among those is the agreement that only PC's, named NPC's and named foes get that 'bonus save' when Dominated and asked to do something against their nature... mooks do not. That's another thing I have to take into account.
Ugh - and after enchantments, she takes buffs and illusions the latter of which she can be devilishly clever with. Its a pleasure to GM her and a complete pain in the @ss as well.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Have your BBEG lie to his minions, or not tell the whole story.
I personally don't see what you suggested as punishing players. If it's not working out and it's making the game less fun or a pain in the ass for you, then it's not working out. There's a very real problem you are facing, the marginalization of encounters due to one character, and the answers to this problem are always either a lot more work on your part or politely asking them to change characters to something less marginalizing.
It's generally recommended to ask them to change characters so you don't risk burning out.
I don't know what kind of enemies you will face in RotRL, but being a specialist in enchantment and illusion is a fiendishly sharp dual-edged sword, that can annoy both GM AND player.
She may with certain characters, especially "mook" humanoid NPCs, certainly bypass them through her "charming" ways. And to an extent, that's still overcoming the encounter but you as GM may feel like you didn't get to play it the way through the way you want it.
But the thing is... she's gonna hit that point where the enemy's gonna make the saving throw--even a mook hits a nat 20 at some point... or she's going to fight undead or constructs or oozes or swarms or something that will be completely immune to her favorite tactic. And then she's gonna go from MVP to useless. She might feel screwed over, depending.
Now, if she is a good clever player as you say, she has probably foreseen the latter, so hopefully she will accept it in stride when those things happen.
I agree with psionic hamster -- to an extent, let her "win" when it happens. As you say, it is reasonable to limit what enemies know. A mook probably isn't going to provide much information anyway. Also, note this: a mook may have been lied to to intimidate him into service. Maybe the mook was told the Big Bad is an ancient red wyrm when it's really just a kobold with a couple levels in sorcerer. Then the party thinks they're facing something they're not. While you have to balance out what information is provided, it is reasonable to assume the NPCs of the world do not all have the same knowledge, perspective, or information on the same situation. And some information, even if they may believe it, might be quite contradictory. This can work to your advantage in setting up the story if you do it right--while still letting the sorcerer's abilities work to get them some useful information, even if they have to learn to sort the wheat from the chaff.
Plus, knowing too much can backfire. They can know the Big Bad is in the Crystal Fortress, but if they learn it 6 levels too early and try to storm the castle, they can get themselves killed. But that you can also use to your advantage--give the information. But also give the information that, say, if they go straight for the target, they might be setting themselves up for more than they can handle.
I'd also think about adjusting some encounters. If there's a lot of humanoid opponents, maybe make one a bard with high will saves who can use the distraction performance to boost his allies' saves against her illusions, for example. This gives her abilities a chance to still work, but also provides a focused challenged.
And after all, if the enemies in the world are connected to one another, rumors of the sorcerer's skill is going to spread. Amongst the information she gathers could even be, "Your ability to get into some guys' heads is talked about all the time. Boss says he's building up something to make sure you can't just bat your eyelashes and get your way. 'Course I know unlike the rest of them, you like me for REAL, so I'm tellin' ya so you don't get hurt..." That warns her if she keeps relying on the same tricks over and over, the enemies are going to get wise and be prepared next time--and be readied to take her out first and be buffed against her tactics.
And again, she shouldn't be deprived of her moments to shine, but hopefully the above makes it more fun and challenging for everyone.
I don't know what kind of enemies you will face in RotRL, but being a specialist in enchantment and illusion is a fiendishly sharp dual-edged sword, that can annoy both GM AND player.
She may with certain characters, especially "mook" humanoid NPCs, certainly bypass them through her "charming" ways. And to an extent, that's still overcoming the encounter but you as GM may feel like you didn't get to play it the way through the way you want it.
But the thing is... she's gonna hit that point where the enemy's gonna make the saving throw--even a mook hits a nat 20 at some point... or she's going to fight undead or constructs or oozes or swarms or something that will be completely immune to her favorite tactic. And then she's gonna go from MVP to useless. She might feel screwed over, depending.
Now, if she is a good clever player as you say, she has probably foreseen the latter, so hopefully she will accept it in stride when those things happen.
I agree with psionic hamster -- to an extent, let her "win" when it happens. As you say, it is reasonable to limit what enemies know. A mook probably isn't going to provide much information anyway. Also, note this: a mook may have been lied to to intimidate him into service. Maybe the mook was told the Big Bad is an ancient red wyrm when it's really just a kobold with a couple levels in sorcerer. Then the party thinks they're facing something they're not. While you have to balance out what information is provided, it is reasonable to assume the NPCs of the world do not all have the same knowledge, perspective, or information on the same situation. And some information, even if they may believe it, might be quite contradictory. This can work to your advantage in setting up the story if you do it right--while still letting the sorcerer's abilities work to get them some useful information, even if they have to learn to sort the wheat from the chaff.
Plus, knowing too much can backfire. They can know the Big Bad is in the Crystal Fortress, but if they learn it 6 levels too early and try to storm the castle, they can get themselves killed. But that you can also use to your advantage--give the information. But also give the information that, say, if they go straight for the target, they might be setting themselves up for more than they can handle.
I'd also think about adjusting some encounters. If there's a lot of humanoid opponents, maybe make one a bard with high will saves who can use the distraction performance to boost his allies' saves against her illusions, for example. This gives her abilities a chance to still work, but also provides a focused challenged.
And after all, if the enemies in the world are connected to one another, rumors of the sorcerer's skill is going to spread. Amongst the information she gathers could even be, "Your ability to get into some guys' heads is talked about all the time. Boss says he's building up something to make sure you can't just bat your eyelashes and get your way. 'Course I know unlike the rest of them, you like me for REAL, so I'm tellin' ya so you don't get hurt..." That warns her if she keeps relying on the same tricks over and over, the enemies are going to get wise and be prepared next time--and be readied to take her out first and be buffed against her tactics.
And again, she shouldn't be deprived of her moments to shine, but hopefully the above makes it more fun and challenging for everyone.
No, there's a trust there - my players know I'm not going to go out of my way to marginalize them and they in turn don't get whiney if their favorite tactic or combo isn't working out as well as they think it should. I'm most definitely planning on having word get out on her abilities when and as its reasonable to do, and I expect a number of encounters where the mooks are directed to 'take her out first'. A lot of her more potent abilities tend to be single-target effects anyway, and BBEG's will single her out as the greatest threat to them, perhaps not even making an appearance until she has been dealt with.
You're also correct about going from hero to zero in some encounters - will almost zero, as she'll have buffs like Heroism/Greater Heroism and eventually the Wish spells, but still. Fortunately, both she and the other players are fine with that.
That's kind of the thing - I'm not getting any complaints from the other players as that's nto the kind of group they are, I'm just very aware of the challenges I'm going to face in an AP filled with humanoid foes. Might have to mix in a few more monsters here and there.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Remember that Laughing Touch is a spell-like ability and provokes an attack of opportunity when used.
Not really seeing them wanting to provoke attacks on the 2d6 x3 crit ogre hooks later in the adventure.
Are you requiring any kind of roll? Like a difficulty check or a touch roll? If so roll in private where you then decide whether it works or not.
2nd) Have the effects wear off fast. If you are rolling a save for the monster roll in private and oh look, effect broken...
3) Give her some flat out wrong knowledge that teaches them they cant always trust it working...
1) How exactly is she getting those DCs? If she has a 21 Cha, a +2 Cha booster item, +1 on enchantments for being a kitsune, and spell focus, that gets her to 18 + spell level for most enchantments, and 20 + spell level for compulsions (from the silly fey bloodline). I'm falling one short.
DC = 10 [Base]
+0 [Spell level]+5 [20 Charisma]
+1 [Kitsune racial modifier to Enchantment spells]
+2 [Fey Bloodline Arcana bonus for Compulsions]
+1 [Spell Focus]
+1 [Greater Spell Focus]
+1 [Kitsune Sorcerer favored class option] = 21
2) A kitsune fey bloodline... geez. It's legal, all right, but I would think twice before allowing something like that in my game. The kitsune is a race that's suboptimal for anything *but* an enchantment specialist, and the fey bloodline (IMO) is just a big old helping of cheese. Letting a player combine them is just asking for trouble.
I'm pretty much okay with a character being really good at one or two things if they are willing to accept the consequences when it comes to those other things they aren't good at. I don't have a problem with damage dealing characters stacking on every damage bonus they can legally find or tanks stacking on every AC bonus they can manage... same principle as far as I'm concerned.
3) Yeah, she's going to just blast through the third and fourth modules. Lot of giants with crap Will saves in there. Sorry, but there it is.
That's what I'm kind of eye-balling. As recommended, it might be a good option to have her targeted by at least some of the bad guys as the party's 'greatest threat' or even possibly have the BBEG seek to take her out with a party of hand-selected assassins. Thing is, she's pretty good at being subtle in her manipulations and the party recognizes her value so they try to keep her safe. By 9th level (for instance) she'll probably have Still Spell and Silent Spell and, given the long durations of her Charm spells, little will keep her from having important NPC's indefinitely charmed.
4) All I can say is, constructs, undead, plants swarms and oozes. And traps. -- For the record, I agree with those who say let her "win" most of the time. After all, you say the other players don't mind -- and as long as everyone is having fun, you're doing it right.
Yeah, another option I'm considering is throwing in a few more of these types of monsters here and there, just to keep things interesting. Generally speaking, one of her favorite tactics is to have an NPC henchman to do her fighting for her (characters like Vancaskerkin) and buff them as she can. She's also currently shopping around for a nice attack wand (we generally don't make magic items easily available for purchase) and is looking to pay to make Tongues Permanent for herself.
That's really kind of what this thread was intended for - not to get ideas on how to neutralize or neuter her through meta-gaming, btu rather to find ways to let her do what she does without interrupting the flow of the game... in other words to find out just what extra work I needed to do - even in specific cases - to keep things both challenging and rewarding with such a character.
I'm most dreading when she gets Feeblemind, though I think occasional illusions might help there... that and according to her build, she'll be working towards Spell Perfection: Hold Monster as well. Ugh.
Sir Hamster and DQ have the right of it. The character has plenty of strengths - and quite a few weaknesses. My only addition to their advice is to prepare handouts that detail what the interrogatable foes know. Mooks in [location A] know [x], lieutenant knows [y], BBEG knows [z].
The major downside as a player is when you're making friends by charm magic, those spells don't usually make the monster friends to everyone. This is ok, single target casting means the rest of the group gets to do their thing. If things go pear-shaped, they go pear-shaped.
As someone pointed out, Laughing Touch is one of those stupid "walk right up to the monster" touch attacks that Paizo's designers are so fond of. That's kinda sorta acceptable as a clerical domain, but for a sorceror? (One thing about giants -- they have reach.)
She has to be feat-starved, and probably doesn't have a lot of skills either. In a large party, this is no biggy. But I'm guessing she has a glass jaw, or maybe several of them. Something that I've found works for me in these situations is getting a copy of the PC's character sheet and just starting at it for a moment or two. Stuff will sometimes just jump right out at you. ("Wow, you have a horrible Fort save. And, phew, your CMD is low even for a caster.")
Doug M.
So far she's only used Laughing Touch in surprise situations or against foes already engaged in combat with someone else.
Here is her feat list if you're curious:
1st - Spell Focus: Enchantment
3rd - Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment
5th - Combat Casting
7th - Silent Spell
7th - Improved Initiative (Bloodline feat)
9th - Still Spell
11th - Spell Penetration
13th - Persistent Spell or Extend Spell
13th - Quicken Spell (Bloodline feat)
15th - Spell Perfection: Hold Monster
17th - Greater Spell Penetration
19th - Iron Will
19th - Lightning Reflexes (Bloodline feat)
Obviously she'll have both a low Fortitude save and a low CMD as you mention (Str 8, Dex 16). Her Traits are Reactionary and Focused Mind in addition to the AP Trait which we allow as a bonus.
Its the rare Sorcerer who isn't skill-starved. She's primarily focused skill-wise on Spellcraft and Stealth with a smattering of ranks in various face-type skills. She struggles with physical skill challenges like climbing or swimming and has little to offer Knowledge-wise.
I feel like I should re-iterate the fact that she has an excellent backstory and role-plays her character well. Imagine if you can a slightly seductive good-aligned Joker from The Dark Knight...
There's no valid reason whatsoever to punish the player for designing his character well. My idea would be to plan ahead and adapt. Let me explain (spoilers ahead).
Book two is a little bit trickier since all leads to Xanesha. This information can be hidden or transformed by her shapeshifting ability, or her charm monster'ing the person (Ironbriar comes to mind) into remembering something else than what he's supposed to. Mind reading Xanesha isn't possible - she's immune to mind-affecting spells and effect - so we're safe here.
Book three isn't a problem either. Lucrecia is immune to mind-affecting, the Grauls don't know anything, and Lucrecia hasn't probably told the Kreeg her whole plan. Barl only knows Mokmurian, who is the next "plot layer", but that doesn't matter since the PCs will want to defend Sandpoint against the upcoming raid.
By the time the PCs reach Mokmurian, no information gathered from a charmed monster will matter, because they will know who they are up against.
What I'm trying to say is that nothing can really be spoilt heavily by any monster in the AP. If the situation arises, good for the players, they've managed to come up with a creative approach. But the BBEG from the next book won't be so careless and leave so many breadcrumbs.
There's no valid reason whatsoever to punish the player for designing his character well. My idea would be to plan ahead and adapt. Let me explain (spoilers ahead).
** spoiler omitted **
What I'm trying to say is that nothing can really be spoilt heavily by any monster in the AP. If the situation arises, good for the players, they've managed to come up with a creative approach. But the BBEG from the next book won't be so careless and leave so many breadcrumbs.
That's an excellent breakdown that gives me some optimism, thanks. Loved the Shrek reference as well.
|
I am not familar with kingmaker, I generally create my own campaigns, but perhaps you could add some Elves/Half-Elves in the mix with their bonus on saves of such type or some Outsiders that can not be held by hold person.
If you really want to go after them perhaps add some ranger with Favored Enemy Humanoid Shapeshifter which seems reasonable for a ranger guarding his land.
Then there is always the old standby of Undead and Clerics with Protection vs whatever that kitsune is.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
There's no valid reason whatsoever to punish the player for designing his character well. My idea would be to plan ahead and adapt. Let me explain (spoilers ahead).
** spoiler omitted **
What I'm trying to say is that nothing can really be spoilt heavily by any monster in the AP. If the situation arises, good for the players, they've managed to come up with a creative approach. But the BBEG from the next book won't be so careless and leave so many breadcrumbs.
I'd agree with Lithrac and add that it may help you a bit. There are a lot of hidden secrets that are hard to reveal unless the PCs ask the right questions or find the right clues in this AP. Reward the PCs for some good interrogation and help build the tension in this AP by feeding useful information to the PC. This sounds like a lot of fun actually.
Saving throws always succeed on a natural 20. But yes, the DCs are going to ramp up much faster than the bad guys can account for.
Well ... until Chapters 5 and 6 ... ;)
Yes, but this isn't the only AP where I might have to deal with this problem, nor am I the only one out there who might have to deal with this problem, which is why I made the post in the general discussion forum in the hopes of getting a more general discussion on the topic, AND why I specifically asked that it not be kicked to a place that would by necessity and by design limit the scope of what was said.
We are really, REALLY too trigger happy in the AP forums sometimes.
Let's see. An adult blue dragon, CR 13, has SR 24 and a +13 Will save. At 12th level, with Spell Penetration, she'll get through its SR on an 10 or higher -- 55% of the time -- and then it'll fail its will save on a 17 or less, 85% of the time. So, she'll have about a 47% chance of shutting the dragon down with a single wave of her hand each round. And that's regardless of what the rest of the party is doing, and of the fact that she'll be throwing a Quickened Daze or something as well. And, of course, that's a monster with SR and a good Will save. Against something like, ohhh, a storm giant with fighter levels? Hypothetically CR 15 or something, but in reality he'll immediately switch sides 95% of the time.
Here's the thing though - as a player myself, I am very susceptible to the (legitimate in my opinion) argument that might be made by her:
Wait a minute - because of spell resistance and saving throws even after I do ALL of these different things with my build this I STILL have a better than 50% chance of anything I do in a given round being completely negated?
Try and build a remotely viable enchanter-type character with anything other than a Kitsune Sorcerer. What would those numbers look like with, say a Human Wizard Enchanter? Would their powers even work 30% of the time? How much would that suck, trying so hard to make an effective character who, at best, is able to succeed on 30% of their actions? That's not counting the times when they're faced with any of a variety of creatures that are completely immune to her chosen spells (like undead, oozes, constructs, swarms, etc.).
I completely see what you're saying, I really do, but with saving throws, spell resistance, a host of immunities, energy resistance, etc. the deck is actually stacked against many types of casters - talk about feat starved, a caster has to take at least a couple of Focus feats AND a couple of penetration feats just to have a fighting chance. I hate that so many wizards ultimately end up being forced into one of a very few types of cookie-cutter builds because of all the layers of defense that casters have to penetrate... my problem isn't at all with the fact that she's managed to make an effective build, but simply how to make certain that build doesn't inadvertantly derail the campaign.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The deck is less stacked against any enchanter than it is against an evoker / "blaster". Way, way less as there is nothing that equates to 'energy resistance' and 'protection from energy' for enchantment spells. That's the gamble with using SoD spells as her primary shtick - it works or it doesn't.
The "worst case" scenario is 47% success that goes considerably higher with the addition of Greater Spell Penetration which is already in her 'queue'.
The much more common case is that there is no SR and crummy Will save bonuses - effectively 95% success at every level of play with every ... single ... spell ... that she throws.
In RotRL the kitsune is going to be very, very effective in nearly all of the encounters.
Metamagic rods of piercing spell and threnodic spell go a long way to evening the playing field even further, and they're cheap at 11,000 gp each to pair up with her beloved hold monster.
Let's look at her at 16th level firing off her perfected hold monster. The saving throw DC is 35 or 36 packing a +20 to penetrate SR .
Going against a CR 18 ancient blue dragon - a "worst case scenario" - with SR 29 and a +19 Will save bonus she beats the SR 60% of the time and the dragon has to throw a natural 17 on the d20 to make the Will save (20% success for the dragon). If she has a metamagic rod of piercing spell her odds of punching through the dragon's SR jump to 85% (+25 vs. SR 29 = nat 4+ is all that she needs). A +1 spell level metamagic rod is all of 11,000 gp, making it a reasonable item (~10% of WBL) for her character to have by 12th level.
All by herself - without the benefits of any magic items nor the effects of any other actions taken by the rest of the player characters - the enchanter can 'one shot' the dragon at full power with one 5th level spell. A fighter buddy will easily be able to coup de grace the dragon as it is highly unlikely to make the subsequent Will saves to escape the hold monster before someone wanders over and cuts its throat with a spoon. As soon as she has the ability to fire off piercing hold monster spells, she is going to one-shot most creatures pretty much regardless of anything else.
Without any gear she can one-shot a creature 2 over her party's APL basically 50/50 - and she can probably do this 10/day at 12th level (netting 5 one-shotted critters/day), 20/day by 16th (netting 10 one-shotted critters/day without any gear). With just the +6 Charisma headband and an 11k gp metamagic rod, she can one-shot a creature 2 over her party's APL roughly 2/3rds of the time - call it 'hand over the XP and loot of the first 15 living critters per day of game time'.
If either scenario sees her taking both Piercing and Persistent Spell metamagic feats she mops the floor with anything that isn't mindless, undead or otherwise immune to mind-affecting effects, although she won't have too many of those/day - only 8 or 9 at a guesstimate. Call it ... hand over the XP and loot for the first levels' worth of encounters per day so the PCs can level up and resume adventuring.
It gets even worse if she takes Piercing Spell on her own accord as she can now add a +10 to penetrate SR with her Spell Perfection hold monster spells - at 16th level, those hold monsters will punch through almost anything's SR with a nice fat +30 bonus. For a single 6th level spell slot - a 7th level spell slot if she also makes it a Persistent Spell - she automatically punches it through SR and the dragon has to make a natural 17+ to resist the spell.
An important part that waaay too many people ignore is the collaborative effects of teamwork. The discussion about the kitsune fey sorceress does not count any 'debuffs' from her other party members - a prayer drops the dragon's saves by 1 across the board as a simple example, let alone any nastiness such as enervation. Or any of bunches of other things.
If the CR 18 dragon is tagged with a combined saving throw penalty of -3 on its Will saves by the rest of the group, it is totally hosed barring natural 20s, especially if she's throwing those nasty piercing hold monster spells - against a "worst case" CR 18 monster she can one-shot it 80% of the time with a combination of a prayer and - oh - let's say a successful shaken condition from the being demoralized by the Intimidation God in the party.
The more common monsters at her level 16 encounter range are packing lower SRs and much worse Will save bonuses: marilith, horned devil = +13 Will; ice linnorm +16 Will. She doesn't even need the rest of the party to deal with these lesser foes other than to keep them from messing up her fur.
If she gets persistent spell instead of extend spell, awfully close to everything she zaps is probably going to fail their Will save against that perfected hold monster.
On the upside, she'll be able to accelerate the party through vast swaths of the AP! hold monster - SR monsters get 'the rod' while monsters lacking SR get Persistent - CDG, other PCs eat popcorn, rinse, lather, repeat. ^_____^
At least their adventuring day can last a whole lot longer...
Yes, no mention has been made about her getting 86'd before she gets to fire off those nasty spells. With Improved Initiative, Reactionary and even a half-decent Dex bonus ... this won't happen very often. If she keeps up her Perception bonus to at least 'respectable' and makes sure she keeps a moment of prescience up and running, taking her down at 18th level is going to be pretty tricky unless she's disjunction'd.
TL;DR: all this discussion about dragons and linnorms did overlook the immunity dragons and linnorms have to paralysis. BUT, that aside, this 16th level enchantress can punch through the 'normal' SR without rolling of an 'affectable' CR 20 monster and packs a saving throw DC high enough that it pretty much doesn't matter what the monster's bonus is. The kitsune difference is a +4 to the save DC - everything else ANY enchanter can do. The save DC adds up in a hurry ... but after a certain point, it is also moot.
The complaint is not that she is effective - if anything, it is that she is too effective. Sure, in certain APs an enchanter specialist is rot grub kibble. In most APs, however, an enchanter specialist will rock-n-roll.
Turin the Mad & Douglas Muir 406
Those are all good points, and a solid perspective mathematically on what a potentially potent character I'm dealing with. I especially appreciate the time and effort you've put into the explanations offered.
I'm thinking that if I limit what information various villians are able to impart, perhaps throw in a red herring from time to time and make sure to periodically include creatures immune to mental affects without making them epidemic, things will be fine. I do like the idea of her garnering some 'special attention' from BBEG's, either in the form of tactics during encounters or having someone trying to take her out ahead of time... but at the same time, I don't want the AP to turn into something that's all about her, and I feel pretty comfortable that she feels the same though she's loving her character.
To be honest, the party dynamic during encounters is already beginning to drift towards the PC's making sure she's protected so that she can 'do what she does' and then they can clean up afterwards since she's very much the figurative glass cannon... fortunately the party dynamic is also such that when one player is effective in a situation, they try to support/compliment that player with their own strengths rather than resent their success - I think playing alongside a Master Summoner for so long has conditioned them.
In addition to the obligatory Enchantment spells, she's planning on taking a smattering of illusion spells, buffs and Limited Wish/Wish. She's also the only full caster on the team - divine or arcane.
As an aside, she did not actually make this character. Even though everyone has a pretty solid command of the rules of the game, we have one guy who gets together with the other players and they collboratively make their characters, usually with the character's player providing the inspiration or concept which he then optimizes for them within that framework. This is a classic example of that. He's done it for me twice in games I wasn't running and I really enjoyed both characters in large part because of how well they did whatever it was they did.
** spoiler omitted **
Doug M.
Well, for what its worth:
Then again, with Timestops and all of those Fort saves she's going to have to be making as a result of his spells, nothing is certain for her anyway.
Also regards Special K
Story Archer-
I'm not familiar with Runelords- I'm more of a player than a GM and we're still making our way through Age of Worms.
But the way to make things more difficult is to turn the character's strength into a weakness. If at any time the BBEGs figure out what her capabilities are all they need is a "dead spy". They give misinformation to their mooks and send them off against the party. The party enchants them and gets incorrect info. The BBEGs can use this to do all kinds of nasty things- ambushes, sending them off to do their dirty work for them, etc. Essentially they can start to make the characters react to them instead of reacting to the
Information is only as good as it's source. If the party starts being slightly gun shy as to the source of the info it won't be used quite as much. And then when they figure out a way around that it's even more satisfying for them!
Sounds like a great group of players- good luck!
Of course, if she gets killed, allow her to be reincarnated. She won't be a Kitsune any longer but still keeps a character who is quite powerful in other ways. And if she's a great roleplayer then she gets to try and cope with no longer being kitsune and adjusting to a new tail-free form. ;)
|
As long as this player isn't preventing the other players from having fun, I wouldn't worry about it too much. That's what everybody's there for, right? I can sympathize with sometimes being frustrated when a player easily disarms what you thought was going to be a challenging encounter, but it's not that big a deal as long as everybody had fun. Putting restrictions in place that cause players to stop having fun is definitely not the solution. It's ok for the players to nuke the BBEG every once in a while.
With that in mind, a 1st level Protection from Evil/Good/Chaos/Law spell will make the enemy completely immune to all of her Enchantment [charm] and [compulsion] effects. Read carefully -- that particular protection doesn't extend to only a single alignment, it applies to all spells that exercise mental control. It's not unreasonable that after the character starts to gain a reputation, bad guys in the area will start to protect themselves appropriately. First level potions are cheap. More powerful enemies might start carrying around Mind Sentinel Medallions or even Clear Spindle Ioun Stones socketed into Wayfinders.
(full disclosure: I have a kitsune sorceress in PFS. Somebody should point out the Charming trait to her!)
It prevents exercising mental control - charm person/monster doesn't establish control, merely adjusts attitude of the target to the caster as I understand it.
The description for Protection from Evil explicitly lists "Charm Person" as an example of a spell that it protects from, so I think that magically adjusting somebody's attitude counts as mental control.
Interestingly it only suppresses for the duration of the protection on a successfully enhanced saving throw...
I suspect that the Kitsune will be learning dispel magic and arcane sight and their bigger relatives in short order. ;)
|
|
Interestingly it only suppresses for the duration of the protection on a successfully enhanced saving throw...
That is only true if the target is already under the effect of an enchantment when Protection is cast on them:
the subject immediately receives another saving throw (if one was allowed to begin with) against any spells or effects that possess or exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment [charm] effects and enchantment [compulsion] effects, such as charm person, command, and dominate person). This saving throw is made with a +2 morale bonus, using the same DC as the original effect. If successful, such effects are suppressed for the duration of this spell. The effects resume when the duration of this spell expires.
However, the next sentence after that says:
While under the effects of this spell, the target is immune to any new attempts to possess or exercise mental control over the target.
If you are not already under the effect of an enchantment, the Protection makes you completely immune to them for the duration of the spell.
I suspect that the Kitsune will be learning dispel magic and arcane sight and their bigger relatives in short order. ;)
True, she'll start using Dispel Magic to beat it, but it's still an effective defense; her caster level check for dispel is likely not nearly as good as her save DCs. Even when she does successfully dispel the effect, it'll still take her two rounds worth of actions to take down one enemy; I think spending at least two rounds' worth of daily resources to neutralize one enemy is pretty reasonable.
Interestingly it only suppresses for the duration of the protection on a successfully enhanced saving throw...That is only true if the target is already under the effect of an enchantment when Protection is cast on them:
the subject immediately receives another saving throw (if one was allowed to begin with) against any spells or effects that possess or exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment [charm] effects and enchantment [compulsion] effects, such as charm person, command, and dominate person). This saving throw is made with a +2 morale bonus, using the same DC as the original effect. If successful, such effects are suppressed for the duration of this spell. The effects resume when the duration of this spell expires.However, the next sentence after that says:
While under the effects of this spell, the target is immune to any new attempts to possess or exercise mental control over the target.If you are not already under the effect of an enchantment, the Protection makes you completely immune to them for the duration of the spell.
I suspect that the Kitsune will be learning dispel magic and arcane sight and their bigger relatives in short order. ;)True, she'll start using Dispel Magic to beat it, but it's still an effective defense; her caster level check for dispel is likely not nearly as good as her save DCs. Even when she does successfully dispel the effect, it'll still take her two rounds worth of actions to take down one enemy; I think spending at least two rounds' worth of daily resources to neutralize one enemy is pretty reasonable.
It's been since 3.5 that I last saw a "mindbender" in play. Beguilers ... *twitch*
Thanks alot! :)
Personally I think it's awesome. My players never really charmed anyone. As such there is a huge amount of backstory they're missing. I sometimes have to grit my teeth it's so annoying.
Personally I think it's awesome. My players never really charmed anyone. As such there is a huge amount of backstory they're missing. I sometimes have to grit my teeth it's so annoying.
Agreed. In the past I've tweaked campaigns to provide characters with all of the fantastic backstory included in the AP's... this time around is no exception.
I've chatted with the player and we've agreed to tweak her build a little - in truth not because she was over-powered but because she might be getting a bit too specialized. I've allowed her to 'shift' over to the Sylvan version of the Fey Bloodline - she loses +2 DC on Compulsion effects (which she can afford in my opinion) but for that trade-off along with Laughing Touch, she spends a feat and gets a full power Animal Companion - a bear in this case.
Also, as a result of the haunts in the Skinsaw Murders, she picked up a level of Oracle - Haunted Curse, Nature Mystery with the Friend to the Animals Revelation. Adding all those Summon Nature's Ally spells to her known spells has proven very useful against foes she can't charm/compell as has the massive buff to her Animal Companion's saves. Its no longer guaranteed that she's going to chase Spell Perfection due to the seemingly requisite feats that Summoning spells demand. We'll see.
I was thinking at least once in the campaign ( and prolly only once) have the party's fighter charmed to the other side. If done only once it would be super memorable and fun had by all.
|
Honestly, as a GM who inspects character sheets, I would have read through that Kitsune build and laughed out loud, "Yeah, that's hilarious. Well done. Where's your real character?"
This player has gone on-line, looked on some optimisation boards and found a tweaked build to 'win' the game.
Everyone on this thread is being really sweet about it but I would look at it and ask, "If this player is so lovely, wouldn't they accept a rebuild when the GM decides to ban absurd builds?"
Otherwise, I'm coming to your game and playing Pun-Pun.
|
I've run RoTRL, this shouldn't be a real issues because
None of the BBEG know the plot until you are at a point where the players are supposed to know the plot. And even the ones that kind of do are generally resistance to those spells (Lamia Matriarch)
But putting that aside, let us also remember that those are close range spells (meaning fail and get hit, hard, a lot.)
And finally, charm person is not control person
Ciretose has an important point. Charm person could make it so the foes only try to capture the charmer alive. Their companions? Can be killed outright. But these critters have missions they must complete. Just because they're charmed doesn't mean they're not going to raze Sandpoint or the like.