Note I said "base speed". A dwarf's base speed is 20. It will be 20 regardless of what gear he wears or if I give him the heavy pack to carry. Conversely, if I slap a gnome in heavy armor, he's down to about 3 squares a round. Dwarves are naturally slower than other medium creatures, but they don't take a hit for piling extra gear or heavy armor on top of it. Matches up with what I said nicely.Only for your idea of a cleric. Not every cleric needs to be a high Charisma party face. Channel Energy is pretty much the least potent of a clerics abilities. A dwarven cleric is tougher, can wear heavier armor without impacting his base speed,That's a common misconception with Dwarves. It's not that they can wear heavy armor without penalties. It's that they get the penalties even when they use light or no armor.
But gnomes are small, and get the benefit of small creatures. Dwarves are medium. And they are the only medium creature with 20'. So I stand by my point.
Get a race, called "dwarf". They get +2 to two stats, are medium, get some stuff with saving throws, move 20', and "get no penalty in heavy armor".
Now take another race, called "frawd". They get +2 to two stats, are medium and they get some stuff with saving throws. They move 30', but they have a special race penalty, called "allways encumbered", which means they get the movement penalty from heavy armor, even in light armor or no armor.
What's the difference, besides "frawd" being "dwarf read backwards? None.
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Now take another race, called "frawd". They get +2 to two stats, are medium and they get some stuff with saving throws. They move 30', but they have a special race penalty, called "allways encumbered", which means they get the movement penalty from heavy armor, even in light armor or no armor.
What's the difference, besides "frawd" being "dwarf read backwards? None.
Depends. Are they defined as 'encumbered' and gain the max dex bonus and ACP of that status or is this a new definition of encumbered that only affects speed?
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Depends. Are they defined as 'encumbered' and gain the max dex bonus and ACP of that status or is this a new definition of encumbered that only affects speed?Now take another race, called "frawd". They get +2 to two stats, are medium and they get some stuff with saving throws. They move 30', but they have a special race penalty, called "allways encumbered", which means they get the movement penalty from heavy armor, even in light armor or no armor.
What's the difference, besides "frawd" being "dwarf read backwards? None.
Ding Ding! Encumbered covers way more than land speed. IF you look at dwarves in the ARG you see that the "Slow" racial ability buys their race points down, though they're still the most powerful (according to the ARG race points system) of the core races. Interestingly, their Slow and Steady ability isn't calculated in, so Dwarves are probably closer to a 12 or 13 point race, making them by far the highest point build core race. When you look at some of the things Aasimar is paying big points for (native outsider subtype, blocks nearly as many buffs as negative effects; spell-like ability, only useable 1/day) the dwarf is actually probably the most powerful race by point with the exception of Fetchlings, Drow, and Svirfneblin.
Not wanting to read through 200 posts of arguments I'll just put out my opinion to the question posed if Aasimars are OP: No, they are not OP. They are balanced with the rest of the races in my opinion.
Ding Ding! Encumbered covers way more than land speed. IF you look at dwarves in the ARG you see that the "Slow" racial ability buys their race points down, though they're still the most powerful (according to the ARG race points system) of the core races. Interestingly, their Slow and Steady ability isn't calculated in, so Dwarves are probably closer to a 12 or 13 point race, making them by far the highest point build core race. When you look at some of the things Aasimar is paying big points for (native outsider subtype, blocks nearly as many buffs as negative effects; spell-like ability, only useable 1/day) the dwarf is actually probably the most powerful race by point with the exception of Fetchlings, Drow, and Svirfneblin.
Sure. Nobody denies that the Dwarves are very good, with bonus to saves vs magic, poison, darkvision, 2 good bonus to stats...
BUT "not getting penalties to movement in heavy armor" isn't really a benefit. Being slow is a penalty.
If they were 30' movement and wouldn't have the slow and steady "advantage" they'll be even better.
Dwarves also still run at 4x base move while wearing heavy armor, as opposed to 3x like everyone else. They actually are faster is heavy armor than anyone else.
My high level fighter runs faster x3 than your dwarf runs x4. Dwarves are faster in heavy armor than anyone else which doesn't have Armor Training.
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What I can't believe is that I just re-read every single comment on this thread.
Fetchlings are hardly overpowered
they pay a hefty cost for their spell like abilities
and RP isn't a valid indicator of power.
while it makes sense that a 30 RP race should be stronger than a 5 RP race.
i have seen, through cheap and powerful abilities, and irrelevant flaws, that you can make a 10-15 RP race that is far stronger than it's 25-30 point counterpart.
the first step, is that skill bonuses are a trap.
the second is that, creature types cost more than just buying the advantages piecemeal on a humanoid.
the third, is that the minimal disadvantage called light sensitivity, is your friend for Saving RP. as is taking vulnerability to an obscure damage type (like force).
You can't take Force Vulnerability.
The increased cost for other Types is do to them having built in Abilities inherent to that type.
Pathfinder classes where Charisma is a primary stat:
Bard
Paladin
Sorcerer
Oracle
SummonerPathfinder Classes where Charisma is a secondary stat:
Cleric
Rogue (build-dependent)
CavalierThere are 17 classes in Pathfinder. Of those, 5 are more dependent on CHA than the cleric and likely to have a higher CHA score. These classes cover every major party role. Rogues built to be the party face and Cavaliers with CHA focused orders like the Star or Lion will likely have CHA scores as good as or better than the clerics.
That means that better than 1/3 of the options out there are just as capable or more capable of covering CHA based skills as the Cleric. Of the seven other classes who utilize CHA, all but the Sorcerer, Paladin, and Summoner gain more skills per level than the Cleric.
First off, who said Charisma was a primary stat for a Bard? That class is a grab bag of abilities, as is the Rogue. You choose what you want to specialize in by the choice where you put your stats. In fact, I find that most Rogues tend to have a higher Int and Dex than Cha, any day.
Second, again, for most classes Charisma is a dump stat. Not all, of course, but most players tend to put raw survival ahead of being socially manipulative. That's not always a good thing, since it pays to have at least ONE character that can sleaze.
Since most parties like to have a healer of some sort, and the Cleric is the best at it, it's usually the Cleric that gets the Cha, even if the build the player uses doesn't focus on healing/repair.
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I'd say the designers of the game said Charisma was a primary stat for the Bard since he's got a large chunk of debuff spells and others that allow a save, and that's his casting stat.
To anyone just jumping in:
This thread is essentially 4 pages of Piccolo insisting that Aasimar are superior, with the vast majority jumping in to point out how they are in fact not.
At this point we're trailing off into the various intricacies of other races...
Wasn't just me, hombre.
I'd say the designers of the game said Charisma was a primary stat for the Bard since he's got a large chunk of debuff spells and others that allow a save, and that's his casting stat.
Also affects the number of rounds of Bardic Performance and the saves for performances.
I know that in most cases, I'd rather have another couple rounds of Inspire Courage than another channel. Edit: Though the extra rounds are not all that necessary at higher levels.
If they were 30' movement and wouldn't have the slow and steady "advantage" they'll be even better.Travel domain. :)
Lame curse. Or armor training.
Also, a non slow creature can get Travel domain too, increasimg to 40 in light armor (or medium mithril) and 30 in heavy armor.
Your point was?
Dwarves also still run at 4x base move while wearing heavy armor, as opposed to 3x like everyone else. They actually are faster is heavy armor than anyone else.Another thing to note, is that increasing a dwarf's speed does not increase their Armor Speed Penalty.
Put just about any medium creature with 30 speed in Heavy Armor and get it to 60 speed, and that creature is only moving 40 feet per Move Action.
Get a dwarf to 50 speed, and he's still moving 50 feet per Move Action.
This includes Expeditious Retreat and Haste.
Except that haste increase your movement to a maximum of double the base movement. A dwarf with haste in heavy armor moves 40. A dwarf with haste in light armor moves 40. Meanwhile, a human moves 60 in light armor, and 40 in heavy armor, but 60 if he is fighter (armor training) and 50 if he is an oracle with the lame curse. So again, the dwarf would be much better if it weren't slow and steady
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If they were 30' movement and wouldn't have the slow and steady "advantage" they'll be even better.Travel domain. :)Lame curse. Or armor training.
Also, a non slow creature can get Travel domain too, increasimg to 40 in light armor (or medium mithril) and 30 in heavy armor.
Your point was?
That the dwarf would have 30ft movement and still have the advantage of not being slowed in armor.
That the dwarf would have 30ft movement and still have the advantage of not being slowed in armor.If they were 30' movement and wouldn't have the slow and steady "advantage" they'll be even better.Travel domain. :)Lame curse. Or armor training.
Also, a non slow creature can get Travel domain too, increasimg to 40 in light armor (or medium mithril) and 30 in heavy armor.
Your point was?
And a non-dwarf cleric could have the travel domain and move 40 feets while in Mithril Breastplate, or 30 while in heavy armor (if he pay the proficiency to get one).
Except that haste increase your movement to a maximum of double the base movement. A dwarf with haste in heavy armor moves 40. A dwarf with haste in light armor moves 40. Meanwhile, a human moves 60 in light armor, and 40 in heavy armor, but 60 if he is fighter (armor training) and 50 if he is an oracle with the lame curse. So again, the dwarf would be much better if it weren't slow and steadyThe lame curse reduces base speed by 10, so a hasted lame oracle would still move at 40. In addition, they are still slowed by heavy armor until level 10, making thier speed 15, with a run of only 45 until this point is reached.
Armor training is great (although it doesn't kick in for heavy armor until lvl 7), but it kind of limits the character to the fighter class. Most of the dwarf discussion seems to be revolving around the cleric, since that was the example brought up to refute the 'aasimar cleric is best cleric' arguement.
The reason the heavy armor cleric was brought up is that the dwarf's penalty isn't an issue when playing a non-fighter in heavy armor, so the penalty is pretty much negated, yet the other benefits remain.
You are right, I mixed up the penalty (it's 5 for races with 20').
Even taking the lame curse out, the dwarf still doesn't get any advantage.A hasted dwarf cleric or paladin in heavy armor isn't faster than a hasted elf cleric or paladin. Haste double his speed to 40', which is what the other races get in heavy armor. And in adition, the dwarf can't get to 60' if he puts himself in light armor (or medium mithril).
And a non-dwarf cleric could have the travel domain and move 40 feets while in Mithril Breastplate, or 30 while in heavy armor (if he pay the proficiency to get one).And what is your point?
This:
That's a common misconception with Dwarves. It's not that they can wear heavy armor without penalties. It's that they get the penalties even when they use light or no armor
Slow and steady is not an advantage of the dwarves. It's a disadvantage they have to pay because all the other stuff they get.
But when a Human Fighter with the Same STR gets to the Point to where they can't move do to the Weight they are carrying the Dwarf just looks over and laughs.
I've found slow and steady is good for being slow but not minding so much. Halflings and gnomes in medium or heavy armor really feel the pain (15 ft. movement speed is the pits), and it's nice being able to load the dwarf down without any major issues. It can be cool to run at full speed or tumble in heavy armors as well (especially when dealing with heavier armors with lower check penalties due to things like masterwork and mithril). It's true that their lack of speed is a drawback, but I've never found it to be a big one.
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First off, who said Charisma was a primary stat for a Bard?
I can't believe that's even a serious question, but how about:
1)The fact that they have fully every CHA based skill as a class skill except Handle Animal.2)The fact that they CHA is their casting stat, affecting spells per day, save DC's, etc.
3)The fact that their bardic Performance, which encompasses 13 of their 20 total class abilities, relies on CHA for duration, effectiveness, etc.
The assertion that a cleric is in some way more likely to have CHA than a bard is kind of laughable, really. The cleric needs it far less and derives far less benefit from it than the Bard, or most any other class which utilizes CHA.
First off, who said Charisma was a primary stat for a Bard?I can't believe that's even a serious question, but how about:
1)The fact that they have fully every CHA based skill as a class skill except Handle Animal.
2)The fact that they CHA is their casting stat, affecting spells per day, save DC's, etc.
3)The fact that their bardic Performance, which encompasses 13 of their 20 total class abilities, relies on CHA for duration, effectiveness, etc.The assertion that a cleric is in some way more likely to have CHA than a bard is kind of laughable, really. The cleric needs it far less and derives far less benefit from it than the Bard, or most any other class which utilizes CHA.
I will say that most of my more successful bards have had only moderate Charisma. I will also say that most of my more successful clerics have dumped Charisma. Channel Energy begins weak and gets weaker. There's not really much reason to waste points trying to get more uses out of it when you could be improving other stats.
The exception is if you're going to become an undead cleric. Then having a high Charisma is useful just 'cause it becomes your Constitution.
I think bards get handle animal via the versatile performance class ability. So they really get them all. Additionally, versatile performance duplicates some non-cha based skills, increasing the benefits of a high charisma score EVEN MORE. The only limitation is that I rarely see bards push cha at the expense of all other stats the way a single stat caster often will.
Yeah. Fail bards over-estimate the emphasis on Charisma and try to push Wisdom like a full-caster. Problem is that they get spell levels slower and their save DCs will cap out much earlier (all things being equal your best spells are 6th level vs 9th level which is -3 to the DC).
I've found that those who use enough Charisma to enjoy their class features and spells but prioritize their other statistics more heavily (things like Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution) tend to really capitalize on the Bard's strengths as a generalist. Most of your best spells are buffs or self-targets anyway so pushing save DCs is silly.
As long as you remember that bards are not wizards and build accordingly, you'll probably be happy with your bard. :D
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This:
That's a common misconception with Dwarves. It's not that they can wear heavy armor without penalties. It's that they get the penalties even when they use light or no armorSlow and steady is not an advantage of the dwarves. It's a disadvantage they have to pay because all the other stuff they get.
It is both advantage and disadvantage in one. One that the travel domain synergizes with quite well.
It is both advantage and disadvantage in one. One that the travel domain synergizes with quite well.
This:
That's a common misconception with Dwarves. It's not that they can wear heavy armor without penalties. It's that they get the penalties even when they use light or no armorSlow and steady is not an advantage of the dwarves. It's a disadvantage they have to pay because all the other stuff they get.
Barbarian's fast movement is pretty sexy with it too.
Monk as well.
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Yeah. Fail bards over-estimate the emphasis on Charisma and try to push Wisdom like a full-caster. Problem is that they get spell levels slower and their save DCs will cap out much earlier (all things being equal your best spells are 6th level vs 9th level which is -3 to the DC).
I've found that those who use enough Charisma to enjoy their class features and spells but prioritize their other statistics more heavily (things like Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution) tend to really capitalize on the Bard's strengths as a generalist. Most of your best spells are buffs or self-targets anyway so pushing save DCs is silly.
As long as you remember that bards are not wizards and build accordingly, you'll probably be happy with your bard. :D
I'll usually drop a 16 in CHA and then focus on either DEX or STR depending on the build. I like having a solid modifier in place for class abilities and such, but I don't think there's a lot of reason to go pumping your CHA into the 20's or anything like that.
Conversely, it's a pretty rare day when I run a cleric with more than maybe a 12 or 13 CHA starting out. I like to keep their WIS and CON pumped, and typically even if I'm going the Guided Hand route I like to have at least a 13 in STR for Power Attack and carrying capacity for heavier armor, or in DEX for Rapid Shot if I'm going ranged.
"Slow" is the disadvantage they get to Balance their other goodies. "Slow and Steady" offests the penalty of "Slow".
Slow and steady is not an advantage of the dwarves. It's a disadvantage they have to pay because all the other stuff they get.
It doesn't.
If you remake the dwarf, without the penalty and the stuff that "offsets" it, it is undeniably better.Slow and steady does nothing at all if you use light armor, no armor, medium mitril armor, lame curse (at lvl 10) or armor training (at 7th). And in the rest of the cases it doesnt make the dwarf any better than any other medium size creature with normal speed.
If my dm let my dwarf have 30' movement without being "steady", I'd take it ib a heartbeat.
However, I ve derailed the tgread enough.
To the OP, aasimars are perfectly balanced.
First off, who said Charisma was a primary stat for a Bard?I can't believe that's even a serious question, but how about:
1)The fact that they have fully every CHA based skill as a class skill except Handle Animal.
2)The fact that they CHA is their casting stat, affecting spells per day, save DC's, etc.
3)The fact that their bardic Performance, which encompasses 13 of their 20 total class abilities, relies on CHA for duration, effectiveness, etc.The assertion that a cleric is in some way more likely to have CHA than a bard is kind of laughable, really. The cleric needs it far less and derives far less benefit from it than the Bard, or most any other class which utilizes CHA.
They even have some non-cha skills as cha skill too, tgrough versatike performance. Sense motive and acrobatics, from the top of my head
Second, again, for most classes Charisma is a dump stat. Not all, of course, but most players tend to put raw survival ahead of being socially manipulative. That's not always a good thing, since it pays to have at least ONE character that can sleaze.
Since most parties like to have a healer of some sort, and the Cleric is the best at it, it's usually the Cleric that gets the Cha, even if the build the player uses doesn't focus on healing/repair.
That is all game group dependant. In my group, we normally have one person play a paladin due to the AP's having this love of throwing out a low level fight vs 10 pt DR. The Paladin's smite makes short work of this. We also tend to NOT use a cleric much of the time, since nobody in my group wants to play a healbot. Our standard is to have 2 characters that have healing with a little less focus, normally a full spellcaster such as an oracle or witch, backed up by a hybrid such as a bard or inquisitor.
Yup, and having those two partial healers in the party is a viable alternative. I certainly don't mind it. In fact, if nobody wants a Cleric of any kind, I encourage a pair of partial replacements, as they will be grateful later. I do not hand out happy sticks often, if at all.
Having a few extra rounds of bardic music really is pointless, especially in the mid to higher levels. Thus, bards do not have to have Charisma as their highest stat. The class is a grab bag, a generalist, and always has been.
Barbarian's fast movement is pretty sexy with it too.It is both advantage and disadvantage in one. One that the travel domain synergizes with quite well.
This:
That's a common misconception with Dwarves. It's not that they can wear heavy armor without penalties. It's that they get the penalties even when they use light or no armorSlow and steady is not an advantage of the dwarves. It's a disadvantage they have to pay because all the other stuff they get.
Barbarian and travel give them 30' in heavy/medium armor. Like the same that a guy with 30' starting movement get with either barbarian movement or travel domain. And both classes get medium armor as default, so if they get mithril breastplate, the dwarf barbarian/cleric is still slower than the human counterpart.
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And in the rest of the cases it doesnt make the dwarf any better than any other medium size creature with normal speed.
You're forgetting about encumbrance. A dwarf can carry his whole party at the same speed without having his Dex to AC adjusted, and suffers no penalty to Climb and other skill checks while doing so either.
Muleback cords and handy haversacks are cheap. That doesn't ofsets the fact that dwarves are slower in most cases, and just as slow on the best cases.
First off, who said Charisma was a primary stat for a Bard?I can't believe that's even a serious question, but how about:
1)The fact that they have fully every CHA based skill as a class skill except Handle Animal.
2)The fact that they CHA is their casting stat, affecting spells per day, save DC's, etc.
3)The fact that their bardic Performance, which encompasses 13 of their 20 total class abilities, relies on CHA for duration, effectiveness, etc.The assertion that a cleric is in some way more likely to have CHA than a bard is kind of laughable, really. The cleric needs it far less and derives far less benefit from it than the Bard, or most any other class which utilizes CHA.
Wrong. Bards also have lots of other skills, most of which do not involve Charisma. The class is basically a grab bag, as is the Rogue. You choose what you want to focus in by where you put your highest attributes. You may have noted some of the bard archetypes that don't have much if anything to do with bardic music or spellcasting. This is not exceptional.
Clerics tend to need that Cha, because they can use it to avoid having to use up their spells etc on healing. Remember, only divine magic tends to be able to cast healing spells, and not just in hp. In most Clerics, for example, Wisdom is the highest stat, followed by either Strength (heavy armor and melee) or Dexterity (light armor and archery). Charisma tends to get either second or third best score, and with good reason.
Diplomacy is just plain useful. You can use it to dicker over item prices, bribes, negotiating your way out of a fight you can't win, etc. And only the guy with a decent Cha can pull it off effectively. You already know that, you have played the game, so why are you bothering to argue with me?
Barbarian's fast movement is pretty sexy with it too.
Not really. Fast movement only kicks in with light armor and partially mitigates the slowdown with Medium.
Fast movement only really works well with dwarves if they take a mithral breastplate, nothing heavier. Then they luck out and get the same movement speed that every other Medium creature has. Whoopty doo.
I like the dwarven race, but they do not make the greatest clerics, to say the least. They make decent heavily armored types, simply because everyone armored is gonna move slow, and dwarf armored up just moves as fast as everyone else that wears that kind of gear. Thus, dwarves really should avoid Ranger, Rogue, Sorcerer, Wizard, Bard. Now that they get the bonus to Wis, the race DOES do well as a Druid, since that class doesn't use Charisma all that much. They also do okay with Monk, even if it DOES help Monks more to get a bennie on Str and not Con.
A dwarf really does best overall as a Fighter,Barbarian, Monk, or Druid methinks. Paladin and Cleric no, because of that pesky penalty to Charisma.
And in the rest of the cases it doesnt make the dwarf any better than any other medium size creature with normal speed.You're forgetting about encumbrance. A dwarf can carry his whole party at the same speed without having his Dex to AC adjusted, and suffers no penalty to Climb and other skill checks while doing so either.
Armor Check Penalty still applies.
Muleback cords and handy haversacks are cheap. That doesn't ofsets the fact that dwarves are slower in most cases, and just as slow on the best cases.
The only ways I know of to increase weight capacity are:
Heavyload Belt-3x weight limits
Muleback Cords- +8 Strength for weight limits only
Masterwork Backpack- +1 Strength for weight limits only
any extradimensional holding space item, like a Handy Haversack (limited capacity), Bag of Holding (best version weighs 60lbs however, and is vulnerable to being pierced by sharp objects) and the Portable Hole (costs 30k, but has no weight limit).
And finally, anything that increases your Strength rating, like magic items, racial bonuses (orc and ogrekin get the best bennies).