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Idk if this is the right subforum for this, but it is something that concerns me, as a Core Rulebook owner. It's wonderful that Paizo combined a DM's Guide and PH in one book. Very economic and convenient. However, the thickness of the tome kind of oversteps it's bounds in comparison to the other core books. Whereas the kind of binding used on the thinner books is fine given their thickness and page weight, the flimsy nature of the binding is not suited for the task of keeping together the Core Rulebook. I've noticed this issue with at least 3 Core Rulebooks(All the ones I've come across), including my own. The spine of the book is extremely loose and flimsy, it almost feels glued on. It makes the book feel extremely fragile, and given it's weight, to avoid the spine ripping, I feel you need to be exceedingly careful with it. but this is a difficult feat when the book is being used on an extremely consistent basis by a group of varying individuals.
This feels like a design oversight to me, and I feel like it's something Paizo should definitely look into upon future printing of the Core Rulebook. I'm worried one day my book will fall apart in my hands, and would hate to see that happen to someone else. I think the Core Rulebook needs something more akin to school textbook binding.
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I have heard of some people's CRB's doing this but then again I have seen them lean on the center of the book when it is open. Press the book when it is open as well and basically not treat it very well when open. Not to say all the time do they do this but just sometimes. But it is enough to loosen the groupings if it is not treated with kid gloves sometimes. Such as just opening it and not pressing down on the bindings.
Yeah, it's terrible.
The book is really cheap, though. I'm probably sending mine to the binder and having it combined with the APG in one volume.
The gorilla glue trick does work pretty well, if you're careful. I have a few books on my shelf that I fixed that way.
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Oh. THAT kind of binding.
*Puts away copy of Pact Magic Unbound, Vol. 1.
It's sad, but true.
I've had the same problem with the CRB. In addition, my copy of Ultimate Magic is also suffering the same fate, unfortunately.
No one has consider bringing this design flaw to Paizo? Well, I guess that's the purpose of the thread...but still if it's an issue many have, yu would think ore people would be upset about it.
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Hipster Thor,
It is not really a flaw. Game books fall apart with heavy use. The few that have spoken up here in this thread in saying their books are falling apart is a very very small percentage of the books/customers out there.
While not everyone treats their books like I do with mine, and I know they do fall apart with really heavy use, being stuffed in to back packs and duffel bags certainly does not help either. One above even mentioned comparing these books to school text books and their bindings and how the CRB should be more like them. I disagree... if they were more like a text book then I could not afford the CRB with the $200 dollars it would cost then.
All I can say is if yu do not want it to fall apart. Is just to treat the book like it is made of glass. Be careful of the book. Do not crack the binding, lean on the book while it is open. While not every books is perfect and does not fall apart... if you treat it with kid gloves a little the book WILL last longer then if you didn't :)
My 1st Edition DMG and PHB are rock solid to this day. They were stuffed into backpacks, duffel bags, in trunks of cars under mounds of other books, used daily for years, have been written and colored in, and to this day the bindings are rock solid. I had several copies of the 1st Edition Unearthed Arcana fall apart on me and I've heard the same from many others. While I do not profess to know a damned thing about the book binding process or how those books differ, there is a clear difference. My PF CRB sees virtually no use and the cover and binding is loose and snaps/crackles/pops on opening. Maybe I'm alone, maybe not. Just because very few people are complaining does not mean there is NOT a common issue.
It could be any of...
a) very few people care
b) very few people care enough to post about it
c) very few people (in the big picture) frequent the boards
d) perhaps its truly affecting very few people as well
I suspect its affecting many more than are talking about it, for a combination of reasons a-c.
Edit Added in the "NOT" in the final sentence. Seems I was typing faster than I was thinking. A common problem for me it seems..
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The first print run CRB's were actually notorious for having weaker bindings. I believe that new print runs had stronger bindings than before. This isn't the first time this concern has seen the forums.
The CRB is one of the few RPG books printed so thick, and certainly the thickest book to see such widespread use. I'm not blaming Paizo for not being able to predict what would happen, but I don't think it dismiss-able either.
Honestly, I'd love to see the CRB split into two books, a Player's Guide and a GM's Reference. At $29.99 and $19.99 respectively (The GM sections are small compared to the player section in the CRB, not all of the DMG made the port over), or even a bit more each, inflation and binding costs etc...
My 1st Edition DMG and PHB are rock solid to this day. They were stuffed into backpacks, duffel bags, in trunks of cars under mounds of other books, used daily for years, have been written and colored in, and to this day the bindings are rock solid...
I second this wholeheartedly, I've got 1st and 2nd edition books that have lasted through years of not-gentle handling and are still totally together.
On the flip side, every time I open one of my Bestiaries, the feel of it and the noise it makes has me thinking, "this isn't gonna last" every time :(
+1/Like on Perram's comment. I'd love to see "Pathfinder Revised" broken into two books, and including a bit more drastic mechanic updates, such as changes for Stealth etc.
Through a combination of luck and not using the hard copy very much, my core rulebook is in quite good shape. But I feel for the rest of you; my AD&D Unearthed Arcana fell apart all too early in life. *sob*
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I've got a 1st printing CRB that is holding up well. I generally only get it out on game night; it stays in my backpack the rest of the time (and I use the PDF when not gaming). I also have a 3rd printing that I loaned to the young, broke, newlywed in my group. It's seeing considerably more wear, but seems to be holding up as well.
As far as college text books go, my 3-semester physics and 3-semester calculus books fell completely apart by the time I was finished using them for classes. The sad truth is that once a book hits a certain size, you're really rolling the dice (joke intended) on how long it's going to last. It's only a matter of time.
-Skeld
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I've got a 2nd printing book and after a month or two of solid use at PaizoCon and PFS, I heard the binding crack and tear in places when placing it or removing it from my bag. I've since made a conscious effort to place my hardbacks in my courier bag spine first with the pages facing up. That way the pages won't pull down on the binding so much. No idea if this is really helping, but I'd like to think so.
I bought 3 core rulebooks when the game came out. One i gave to one of the other gms in our group. The other two have seen alot of use at my table. I've had one fall apart and feel like the second is starting to fall apart. Not sure what I will do when it does, but im looking at moving on to using my kindle and the prd over the hard cover books for reference at the table.
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My 1st Edition DMG and PHB are rock solid to this day. They were stuffed into backpacks, duffel bags, in trunks of cars under mounds of other books, used daily for years, have been written and colored in, and to this day the bindings are rock solid. I had several copies of the 1st Edition Unearthed Arcana fall apart on me and I've heard the same from many others. While I do not profess to know a damned thing about the book binding process or how those books differ, there is a clear difference. My PF CRB sees virtually no use and the cover and binding is loose and snaps/crackles/pops on opening. Maybe I'm alone, maybe not. Just because very few people are complaining does not mean there is NOT a common issue.
It could be any of...
a) very few people care
b) very few people care enough to post about it
c) very few people (in the big picture) frequent the boards
d) perhaps its truly affecting very few people as wellI suspect its affecting many more than are talking about it, for a combination of reasons a-c.
Edit Added in the "NOT" in the final sentence. Seems I was typing faster than I was thinking. A common problem for me it seems..
Trust me.. I have been playing since 1974 and know of many people that have played since first edition and most of their PH's and DMG's are duct taped BECAUSE they fell apart. and I do mean most of them. (Mine are actually still in pristine shape though :)
I am not saying that it is JUST this thread that is complaining and that there are not more people out there that do not have the problem you are having. What I am saying though is that books DO fall apart WITH use and the heavier the use the more chance it WILL fall apart.The larger the book the LARGER the chance it will too. So trust me.. this is about heavy use and such too. It is what it is. If you want to protect the book then my suggestion is to make sure it is protected during travel and such and that it does not get banged around. Or take it to a binder and make sure it is more secured.
Good luck
@Deanoth: It could also be that they're not terribly well made. Note I stress could. I'm not stating that as a fact, I'm stating it as a possibility.
Unless you're stating that is truly impossible, which I doubt.
I am not saying that it is JUST this thread that is complaining and that there are not more people out there that do not have the problem you are having.
It's certainly not just this thread that has complaints!
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2jwj2?PRPG-Core-Rulebook-Binding-problemshttp://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nkwg?Core-Rulebook-Spines-Binding
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2kir3?RPG-Core-Rulebook-Binding
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2l2r6?Binding-on-Pathfinder-core-rulebook
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lnea?Print-Quality
(Those are just the first few that I opened.)
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Of all the lines of RPG's I have played and yes since 1974 there have been more then a few, there have been complaints about books falling apart. This is a common complaint and I would say better then 50% of the complaints are from the users basically throwing their books around and cracking the binding and then complaining because their book fell apart. I am going to go out on a limb and say the same thing here.
I am NOT saying that is going to be the case with all of the complaints but the ones I have seen fall apart in all the PFS events I attend (yes there are alot I go to) the books have been abused considerably and the owners have even said as much too. Now on the other hand there are some out there that the book falls apart that are not truly abusing the book other then normal wear and tear and carrying them around in bags and such. This too can cause problems. Am I saying that the book itself is well done and put together no... but then again the owners of the books need to own up to THEIR complicity in the book falling apart too, books do not just sit on shelves and fall apart.
So Hogarth.. in your quote of the other threads yes I KNEW about them and even posted the same thing in some of them. So not sure what you are trying to accomplish at all. Other then to say that there are more complaints out there. Good for you. Yes there are. Again the above still holds true.. while the books are not perfect.. nor are the owners. While a book may just fall apart, it will not if it just sits on a shelf and not get used. If the books gets transported and the like.. then yes it WILL have a chance to fall apart. Even the BEST made book out there, unless carefully protected and such.. will fall apart if stuffed in to a bag, banged around with other books and tossed on to tables and having other books banged on top of them.. will fall apart too. And this is just the normal use the CRB see's weekly at many game tables through out the world.
So if 100.000 users complain about their books falling apart and the 2,000,000,000 books out there and their owners are still going strong. then 5% of the owners have a complaint.. which is fairly low when you factor in the amount of abuse these books see on a weekly basis (see above for details)
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@Deanoth: My CRB has seen maybe one game session since I bought it. It's otherwise sat unopened on my shelf except for the few times I flipped through it now and then in the "library." In general, without ever having been opened, or having been kept in an airtight bag with a backer board as I used to store my comics, I highly doubt you could take better care of a book. That still doesn't change the fact that if I hold the book by the binding, opening facing downwards, that the binding shimmies and shakes and makes a snapping/popping/cracking sound. I assure you my book has not been treated poorly.
Now, am I stating that this is an epidemic affecting every book ever printed? Absolutely not. Am I saying that I *know* there is something wrong with how its made? Nope. I don't know enough about bookbinding to be able to say. I'm only reporting my personal observations. I'm also quite certain that if I took this book to every game session and convention I've been to since I bought it I'd be on my 2nd or 3rd copy by now.
But please don't come in here and tell everyone who reports their book is falling apart that its impossible, or that they must have really mistreated their books. You have no idea how they've treated the book.
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I'm pretty certain everyone in the group I play with has a first printing of the Core book and they are all still in fine condition, even after heavy use.
I do think later printings of the book are generally considered to be much less prone to binding problems.
Bottom line - the first printings did have an acknowledged binding issue for some folks, although the percentage was not huge (of course, for those who did have a problem, that low percentage is pretty irrelevant :) Later printings have even lower instances of binding problems, but it still happens. It's a big book, there is really no way to avoid it. Treating the book poorly can certainly contribute to this. Overall, I'd say Paizo has done a pretty stellar job of dealing with the issue to the best of their ability - as always, Paizo's customer service is top-notch and, as a company, the go way above and beyond to try and do things the right way.
Just my two cents
My 5th printing CRB has been treated pretty darn well - generally I'm the only one that uses it. The binding is horrible, and I'm going to have to replace it soon.
In contrast, my 3.5 PH and DMG have been treated in a far less kindly fashion over a period of 10 years, and they both look much nicer and feel far more solid.
I've noticed this for a while now, but haven't bothered to complain. This post itself is not a complaint. It's merely a statement that the quality of binding (whether because of the size of the book or whatever) is not a handling/care issue. The binding exhibited by my copy is insufficient to the task.
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But please don't come in here and tell everyone who reports their book is falling apart that its impossible, or that they must have really mistreated their books. You have no idea how they've treated the book.
I did NOT come in here and state that everyone mistreated their books. Please re-read the post and you will see that please. Thanks! :)
My 1st printing CRB's spine has completely ripped off and the book is more like a stack of papers. My Bestiary is in a similar state. After such shoddy quality I stopped purchasing Pathfinder books. I can live with PDFs if it means not having my investment fall apart.
I'm in agreement with littlehewy; my 3.5 books also have survived much worse treatment for far longer and are still in much better condition.
The 3.5 books may have had an advantage of being smaller.
My Core book has lost its cover, but it always opens to whatever i want it to so.. viva la duct tape.
I wish I could use duct tape. :(
Stupid, deadly latex allergy.
Ok, maybe not everyone but you DID say:
I would say better then 50% of the complaints are from the users basically throwing their books around and cracking the binding and then complaining because their book fell apart. I am going to go out on a limb and say the same thing here.
So... maybe not everyone but "better than 50% of the complaints" are from people who basically beat their books all to hell is what I took that to mean.
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I am NOT saying that is going to be the case with all of the complaints but the ones I have seen fall apart in all the PFS events I attend (yes there are alot I go to) the books have been abused considerably and the owners have even said as much too. Now on the other hand there are some out there that the book falls apart that are not truly abusing the book other then normal wear and tear and carrying them around in bags and such. This too can cause problems. Am I saying that the book itself is well done and put together no... but then again the owners of the books need to own up to THEIR complicity in the book falling apart too, books do not just sit on shelves and fall apart.
Again the above still holds true.. while the books are not perfect.. nor are the owners. While a book may just fall apart, it will not if it just sits on a shelf and not get used. If the books gets transported and the like.. then yes it WILL have a chance to fall apart. Even the BEST made book out there, unless carefully protected and such.. will fall apart if stuffed in to a bag, banged around with other books and tossed on to tables and having other books banged on top of them.. will fall apart too. And this is just the normal use the CRB see's weekly at many game tables through out the world.
Jreyst this is just a post I made earlier to show you that you are taking me out of context as I go to clarify things a bit more then your simple quoted statement.
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I, for one, am willing to pay more to get a sewn binding.
i'm on my second core rulebook. but i had an actual first printing copy. now i have a 4th printing copy.
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A lot of us have owned books for a long time and under heavy use pretty much all of them start to need assistance. Especially considering the amount of abuse most people tend to put them through.
I'm actually looking forward to having enough spare money to toss about to buy a newer printing of the core rulebook for the errata updates. Then my old one can be the table toss around one for when people with their tablets can't find things.
First, I will note that I definitely agree that many companies don't make hardcover books like they used to, but that's what the market has come to as print costs continue to rise. One of the sad casualties of print inflation.
Now, on the other side of things, my CRB sees heavy use 1 day every week and mild use during another 1 or 2 days each week, and I've been using the same book for three years now. The end result: my binding is in fine shape and I've barely noticed any strain yet whatsoever. So unless I'm incredibly lucky and got a super well-made copy, I have trouble believing there's a problem with the entire print run. The 1st print run, yes, I'll give you that one since it's basically fact. But from the 2nd print run onward, I just assume cases of bad binding are the result of a .0001 product defect average or misuse. Though I assume the latter issue is a rare case indeed as I like to give the benefit of the doubt to the consumer.
Also, while environment can be a factor with printed material, I live in a maritime climate with hot and cold seasons and bouts of dry and humid. Hasn't effected my binding in the slightest.
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To say they do not make books like they used to... man what a statement :)
I have first edition books, 2nd edition books and 3rd edition books. All are in excellent shape but I am almost obsessive on taking care of my books. The same can not be said about my friends books though. They have so many many books from 1rst through 3rd edition that has duct tape all over them to keep the books together.
I have a first print run of the CRB for Pathfinder and my wife and I BOTH use the book and in the way of the binding falling apart... it is still almost like new. I know of many people from the many PFS events around me that are not having issues with theirs either and a few that are. To be fair more are not having issues then are though :)