So then I find a class that has to depend on it's spellbook to be questionable as well.@Shallowsoul
not having to rely on a potion of invisibility while scouting?
at 9th level, a 450 GP potion is pocket change according to the people on these forums, is it not?
show me what your dexterity based aldori dueling sword fighter can do without the benefits of an agile weapon then.
i consider an addiction to cheap potions about as questionable as a dependency on a highly specific item or highly specific weapon enchantment.
i do as well. which is why i prefer to play planetouched sorcerers with the human favored class bonus.
the human may have bigger numbers, but planetouched is kind of a flavor thing for me.
a spellbook is a highly specific item, as is a familiar.
for the schrodinger's wizard to become all powerful, you have to make the following mistakes
- handwave spell slots in a fashion similar to the sorcerer
- allow unlimited scroll scribing time
- allow unlimited preparation time
- allow a huge increase in wealth
- ignore ticking off wand charges
- ignore burnt scrolls
- ignore drank potions
- handwave spell copying time
- handwave spell research
- handwave the drawbacks of losing a spellbook
- have a DM that never targets a spellbook
but if stealing or destroying the wizard's spellbook is a richard move, so is
- sundering or stealing the fighter's primary specialty weapon he sunk several feats into
- using incorporeal creatures against a party without access to magic weapons and without the resources to acquire them
- so is using trolls against a party too low level or too poor to prepare fire or acid related resources
- using the wind conditions to stop an archer from targeting that flying wizard.
- placing the paladin into a moral dilemma where the only outcome is losing their powers
- forcing the cleric to betray their god they became so devoted to and lose all thier powers
- looking for a chaotic act to stop the monk from being a monk
- looking for an excuse to force the barbarian to become lawful and lose access to rage
- including any form of moral dilemma involving any combination of children, sexuality, or cannibalism.
- giggling with sadistic glee as you deny the fighter a chance to repair or replace their stolen or sundered weapon based on such grounds as region.
- killing the witches familiar, which is harder to replace, than the wizard's spellbook.
- constantly pestering the aasimaar with children who want a lock of her perfect golden hair
A Fighter Can be an effective face with any combination of at least 2 of the following
- an intelligence of 13+ likely 14
- being a human who doesn't trade out skilled
- the fast learner feat and it's related chain
- the lore warden or tactician archetypes
- the focused study alternate racial trait for humans
- the dreamscarred press psionics unleashed open minded feat
- investing favored class bonus in skill points
- investing in a circlet of persuasion at the later levels
- investing in traits, or in the cosmopolitan/hermean blood feat to make diplomacy a class skill
- a conveniently placed 1 or 2 level dip into rogue for the skill ranks
- a 2 level dip in inquisitor with the conversion inquisition to replace dumped charisma with a partially augmented wis.
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So is it ok to say that we all believe a fighter should get 4 skills to begin with and probably get Perception, Knowledge Local, and maybe Bluff or Diplomacy as Class Skills?
I don't know if I'd have any other major complaints about fighters.
No, I don't want to pre-can some skills so that we can slide fighters into yet another pre-defined set of expectations like rangers, barbarians or rogues.
Here's what I think would be cool. Give them 4 skill points, but more importantly, remove ALL class skills from the fighter, and give them a class feature that allows them to pick X class skills and set them as their own class skills. What is X? 4? 6? 8? I don't care that much, I'd probably go with 6. For those class skills they pick, allow them to add 1/2 their character level as a skill bonus.
Then they are the ultimate clean slate. No expectations at all. If they want to they can take UMD, spellcraft, ride, fly, intimidate and craft:baskets as their class skills.
Then we'd see some unique and interesting fighters.
using potions to make yourself stealthy is worse then casting spells to make yourself stealthy and calling yourself a sneak. Spells don't cost money, and spells are a class feature, unlike potions. gear does not make a class a scout.
So, no, Shallow, consumables don't do the job. You're basically playing off one-shot PFS scenarios where you have to rejustify your gear each time.
I'm actually suprised at your gear. You've got a +3 sword and gloves of dueling at level 9...that's 28k in gear right there! Are you sure you're at WBL? You look a bit overgeared to me, but I could be wrong...
==Aelryinth
So is it ok to say that we all believe a fighter should get 4 skills to begin with and probably get Perception, Knowledge Local, and maybe Bluff or Diplomacy as Class Skills?
I don't know if I'd have any other major complaints about fighters.
No, I don't want to pre-can some skills so that we can slide fighters into yet another pre-defined set of expectations like rangers, barbarians or rogues.
Here's what I think would be cool. Give them 4 skill points, but more importantly, remove ALL class skills from the fighter, and give them a class feature that allows them to pick X class skills and set them as their own class skills. What is X? 4? 6? 8? I don't care that much, I'd probably go with 6. For those class skills they pick, allow them to add 1/2 their character level as a skill bonus.
Then they are the ultimate clean slate. No expectations at all. If they want to they can take UMD, spellcraft, ride, fly, intimidate and craft:baskets as their class skills.
Then we'd see some unique and interesting fighters.
I'm more of a keep the current skill list and get to add any two, but otherwise agree with that.
If there's someone who should be able to name their own skill list, it's the Rogue, who is basically an Expert+.
==Aelryinth
using potions to make yourself stealthy is worse then casting spells to make yourself stealthy and calling yourself a sneak. Spells don't cost money, and spells are a class feature, unlike potions. gear does not make a class a scout.
So, no, Shallow, consumables don't do the job. You're basically playing off one-shot PFS scenarios where you have to rejustify your gear each time.
I'm actually suprised at your gear. You've got a +3 sword and gloves of dueling at level 9...that's 26k in gear right there! Are you sure you're at WBL? You look a bit overgeared to me, but I could be wrong...
==Aelryinth
And thus we have completely invalidated "Batman" as a viable concept since Batman is all about his "consumables".
Nicely done.
hah, funny. No, Batman is about being the world's greatest detective. Consumables are ancillary...Batman doesn't use temporary magic items for buffs. He tends to use PERMANENT items with scientific alternatives. About the biggest thing you'd see from him for consumables are generally alchemical equivalents, like explosives and smoke bombs...which are class features.
If you're talking wealth, well, he spends his wealth on permanent items and upgrades them.
Exactly how many potion equivalents does Batman use? I can't really think of any that he's identified with. Everything he uses seems to be pretty permanent to me.
I mean, seriously, Batman is the most skilled human on the face of a planet. He doesn't use a potion of invis to sub for lack of Stealth capability. He can hide so well Superman has a problem finding him. He's the poster boy of extra skill points.
==Aelryinth
Shallow's consumables were ancillary too, used for specific purposes, just like Batman's. The fact that he does other things is only relevant because so does Shallow's scout. If you are going to denigrate her scout because it uses potions now and then, then you've denigrated Batman too, because he does the same thing.
Using consumables to complete a concept is a perfectly valid way to build a concept. I've done it myself many times. And every time I do, the rest of the table invariably calls my character "Batman."
Every time. That's how firmly the Batman mythos is associated with his many "wonderful toys."
using potions to make yourself stealthy is worse then casting spells to make yourself stealthy and calling yourself a sneak. Spells don't cost money, and spells are a class feature, unlike potions. gear does not make a class a scout.
So, no, Shallow, consumables don't do the job. You're basically playing off one-shot PFS scenarios where you have to rejustify your gear each time.
I'm actually suprised at your gear. You've got a +3 sword and gloves of dueling at level 9...that's 26k in gear right there! Are you sure you're at WBL? You look a bit overgeared to me, but I could be wrong...
==Aelryinth
+3 sword and gloves of dueling are technically 33K before everything else.
masterwork is another 0.3K
the cloak of resistance is another 9K. 42/46
the boots are another 5.5K
the armor is also 5.5K
and the next cloak is 2.5K
the bow is 2.9K
he is nearly 13.5K over the 9th level WBL, not counting the potions
he has not counting consumables, 59.465K gold pieces, not counting mundane gear or consumables.
Shallow's consumables were ancillary too, used for specific purposes, just like Batman's. The fact that he does other things is only relevant because so does Shallow's scout. If you are going to denigrate her scout because it uses potions now and then, then you've denigrated Batman too, because he does the same thing.
Using consumables to complete a concept is a perfectly valid way to build a concept. I've done it myself many times. And every time I do, the rest of the table invariably calls my character "Batman."
Every time. That's how firmly the Batman mythos is associated with his many "wonderful toys."
Batman is a freaking high level gestalt Rogue/Artificer with a handful of High level ninja tricks, unlimited wealth, and a focus on unarmed combat.
I find it funny that a Battle Oracle gets to add Intimidate, Knowledge (engineering), Ride ... oh and Perception to their list of class skills.
Batman is a freaking high level gestalt Rogue/Artificer with a handful of High level ninja tricks, unlimited wealth, and a focus on unarmed combat.Shallow's consumables were ancillary too, used for specific purposes, just like Batman's. The fact that he does other things is only relevant because so does Shallow's scout. If you are going to denigrate her scout because it uses potions now and then, then you've denigrated Batman too, because he does the same thing.
Using consumables to complete a concept is a perfectly valid way to build a concept. I've done it myself many times. And every time I do, the rest of the table invariably calls my character "Batman."
Every time. That's how firmly the Batman mythos is associated with his many "wonderful toys."
In your world, maybe Lumiere. I've seen as many "Batman builds" as there have been people who wanted to build him. And they are just as much all over the map as "Gandalf builds" which range from a fifth level druid to an epic 20th level druid/wizard/magus/eldritch knight/demigod.
Combat Gear: +1 Ghost Touch, Evil Outsider Bane Longsword, +1 Compositie Longbow +4STR, +2 Full Plate, +1 Heavy Wood Shield. +3 CoR, +1 RoP, Gloves of Dueling
Other Gear: Sipping Jacket (soak a potion in the jacket for ability to use potion as a swift action and even separate spells that count duration in rounds into separate rounds), Potion of Invisibility x3, Potion of Expeditious Retreat x1, Potion of Fly x1
Tactic: We need someone to scout ahead? Ok, I remove my +1 Heavy Shield and my Cloak of Resistance +3 and put on my Cloak of Elvenkind.
Add Boots of Striding he forgot...
WBL for a level 9 is 46-62k
Sword, +3 Equiv: 18k
Gloves of Dueling: 15k. Ouch, half his money right there.
+1 mighty bow: 2400 gp
+2 Full Plate: 5350 gp.
+1 Heavy Shield: 1100 gp.
+1 Ring of Prot: 2000 gp.
Cloak of Elvenkind: 2500 gp
Cloak of Res +3: 9000 gp
Sipping jacket: 5000 gp. Note: To use potion, must USE UP the potion ahead of time, good for one day.
Boots of Striding: 5500 gp
Potions: level 1 spell, 3x level 2 and 1 x level 3 = 50+900+750 = 1700 gp
Grand total: 67550. In other words, 10th level PC wealth. ON the list above, he basically should get one of: his cloak +3 downgraded to +2, his boots, or his jacket. It's not going to make a serious dent in his tactics, but he's overequipped for his level.
And we're talking about the fighter class, not what any class can do buying consumables and hoping WBL takes care of not needing them.
==Aelryinth
|
using potions to make yourself stealthy is worse then casting spells to make yourself stealthy and calling yourself a sneak. Spells don't cost money, and spells are a class feature, unlike potions. gear does not make a class a scout.
So, no, Shallow, consumables don't do the job. You're basically playing off one-shot PFS scenarios where you have to rejustify your gear each time.
I'm actually suprised at your gear. You've got a +3 sword and gloves of dueling at level 9...that's 26k in gear right there! Are you sure you're at WBL? You look a bit overgeared to me, but I could be wrong...
==Aelryinth
Actually to defend Shallow, that's my build.
I'm at the tail end of level 9. Plus, we played up several times throughout my career and I GMed a few times (which reduced my use of consumables). I also got a boon that gives you a free item up to 3k. Gloves of Dueling & a +3 Sword is actually 31k :) but I'm legal, a VC GMs the majority of my games, so we're on the up and up :D My maximum item cost per fame is currently 54k so I'm within the rules :D.
Wealth by level is 46k (assuming no playing up for PFS, which I've done regularly)
I've got about 59k in total gear, but then I'm one scenario from 10, which his 61k in WBL.
Shallow's consumables were ancillary too, used for specific purposes, just like Batman's. The fact that he does other things is only relevant because so does Shallow's scout. If you are going to denigrate her scout because it uses potions now and then, then you've denigrated Batman too, because he does the same thing.
Using consumables to complete a concept is a perfectly valid way to build a concept. I've done it myself many times. And every time I do, the rest of the table invariably calls my character "Batman."
Every time. That's how firmly the Batman mythos is associated with his many "wonderful toys."
Batman doesn't use potions to totally replace a skill he doesn't have. He uses permanent items to accentuate skills he DOES have.
So, your table can say what it wants, it's still a very bad analogy.
==Aelryinth
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And we're talking about the fighter class, not what any class can do buying consumables and hoping WBL takes care of not needing them.==Aelryinth
If "any class" can do it, that means the fighter can too, and anything the fighter CAN do is something that is available to fulfill the goal of this discussion, which is to build fighters that can be more versatile than just being combat characters.
I completely fail to understand why people keep bringing up this "another class can do that, so it doesn't count" bullcrap. Whether another class can do it or not is completely immaterial to the goal. All that matters is if the fighter CAN do it. If he can, then it's fair game.
using potions to make yourself stealthy is worse then casting spells to make yourself stealthy and calling yourself a sneak. Spells don't cost money, and spells are a class feature, unlike potions. gear does not make a class a scout.
So, no, Shallow, consumables don't do the job. You're basically playing off one-shot PFS scenarios where you have to rejustify your gear each time.
I'm actually suprised at your gear. You've got a +3 sword and gloves of dueling at level 9...that's 26k in gear right there! Are you sure you're at WBL? You look a bit overgeared to me, but I could be wrong...
==Aelryinth
Actually to defend Shallow, that's my build.
I'm at the tail end of level 9. Plus, we played up several times throughout my career and I GMed a few times (which reduced my use of consumables). I also got a boon that gives you a free item up to 3k. Gloves of Dueling & a +3 Sword is actually 31k :) but I'm legal, a VC GMs the majority of my games, so we're on the up and up :D My maximum item cost per fame is currently 54k so I'm within the rules :D.
Wealth by level is 46k (assuming no playing up for PFS, which I've done regularly)
I've got about 59k in total gear, but then I'm one scenario from 10, which his 61k in WBL.
whoops, sorry PJ.
And you're actually at 67k in WBL, which is closer to 20k over level 9, and a nice chunk above level 10, too.
==Aelryinth
Batman doesn't use potions to totally replace a skill he doesn't have. He uses permanent items to accentuate skills he DOES have.
So, your table can say what it wants, it's still a very bad analogy.
==Aelryinth
And neither does Shallow's scout, the scout can sneak without potions, the potions just make him better.
You are also able to assert what you like, just because you say so doesn't make it so any more than if I do.
Using consumables is fair game so long as the concept is in a game where those consumables can be acquired. And finding a few low level potions is fair game for pretty much the vast, vast majority of Pathfinder games I've ever encountered.
This is like saying "wait, your character depends on rope. Any character can use rope. You can't count on having rope."
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And we're talking about the fighter class, not what any class can do buying consumables and hoping WBL takes care of not needing them.==Aelryinth
If "any class" can do it, that means the fighter can too, and anything the fighter CAN do is something that is available to fulfill the goal of this discussion, which is to build fighters that can be more versatile than just being combat characters.
I completely fail to understand why people keep bringing up this "another class can do that, so it doesn't count" bullcrap. Whether another class can do it or not is completely immaterial to the goal. All that matters is if the fighter CAN do it. If he can, then it's fair game.
No, AD...what consumables can mean is that 'any person' can do it.
What we're talking about is what the Fighter can do, based on the skills and chassis the fighter has.
Talking about consumables has no relevance on the fighter class, because what you're doing is very specifically stuff the Fighter class CANNOT do...which is making our argument.
To wit...the spellcasters can rely on consumables, too. They don't need to. Why? They can cast the spells that the fighter has to buy. They can do it, but they don't need to...because their class gives them a workaround. Nevertheless, it's there as an 'anyone' option...it has nothing to do with their class whatsoever.
Except it's a lot easier to run out of gold and consumables then class features which you get back the next day.
The Fighter class has nothing to do with consumables. Using consumables is exactly like relying on an outside caster to do your job for you, which is what we are decrying against, not for...and then having to pay for it, to boot!
==Aelryinth
So let me get this straight Aelryenth...
I'm in your game playing a fighter. My fighter has invested in skills beyond just combat skills and so is pretty heavily invested in charisma based skills, including bluff.
We get into a situation where we need to get some information from someone, which has been the role my fighter has been playing. This is a really tough one though, and will require a very high bluff or diplomacy roll.
So my fighter pulls out a potion of "disguise" to help with the effort.
Are you going to then raise your hand and say "point of order everyone. This is an invalid character concept we're seeing here. Fighters don't have this ability and using consumables is not an acceptable way to accomplish this objective."
I mean seriously?
I'm done with this. When we get to the point that you're telling me that using a consumable item in the game necessarily invalidates a character concept, I think we've crossed the event horizon of ridiculousness.
Be done with it, then.
You're twisting my words to match your misconception. I'm not talking about your pet concept, I'm not talking about temporary buffs.
My argument would be: You saying that every time you had to make a diplomacy check, you pulled out a potion of disguise and claimed you were a great diplomat is utterly false. You are using magic to try and sub for the fact you're straight off at a -3 to your Diplomacy for it not being on the list, and you're spending points on it which you probably want to spend on some other skill, but you've got your Ranks and are happy with them.
And the bard, paladin, rogue, monk, cleric, druid and whatnot all blink at you, pat you on the head, and pander to your 8 Int while their combination of class skills, Cha as useful skills, cast spells, or copious skill points do what you are trying to do by relying on class features, not money, to be just as, if not more effective.
After all, they can sip the potions (or just cast the spell) and really show you what it means to be a diplomat.
Being able to buy consumables doesn't cover up class faults any more then UMD makes you a great spellcaster.
===Aelryinth
Batman doesn't use potions to totally replace a skill he doesn't have. He uses permanent items to accentuate skills he DOES have.
So, your table can say what it wants, it's still a very bad analogy.
==Aelryinth
And neither does Shallow's scout, the scout can sneak without potions, the potions just make him better.
You are also able to assert what you like, just because you say so doesn't make it so any more than if I do.
Using consumables is fair game so long as the concept is in a game where those consumables can be acquired. And finding a few low level potions is fair game for pretty much the vast, vast majority of Pathfinder games I've ever encountered.
This is like saying "wait, your character depends on rope. Any character can use rope. You can't count on having rope."
Hemp Rope costs 1 gold piece per 50 feet and weighs 10 lbs
Silk rope costs 1 platinum piece per 50 feet and weighs 5 lbs
both are pocket change for a 9th level or higher character.
a 450GP potion works in a pinch, but the scout who relies on it is no different than the high dex fighter who dumped strength and relies on an agile weapon.
the potion of invisibility is core, is more common in treasure hordes, and is more readily campaign available
Shallowsoul's agile aldori dueling sword is both an exotic weapon, a rare choice on the random charts, agile is an obscure enchantment buried in the pathfinder chronicles line, and the exact weapon, due to both the weapon type, and the property, is a rarity amongst most hordes.
Aye. trying to argue "my character is a great scout as long as I get buffs", be it from spells or potions, just makes me roll my eyes. Unless you can provide the buffs yourself, it's never, ever a brush you can paint with in every campaign.
Basically, if you can't get the buffs, you're not a scout. That means it's the buffs, not the class, doing the work.
==Aelryinth
Aelryinth,
That's the beauty of playing up in PFS, I came close to dying several times because of it, but I've also been handsomely rewarded
PJ, I'm pointing it out because while it may be 'legal' in PFS, it's considerably more gear then a 9th level character is expected to have, and in a universal discussion on class, makes for a poor example.
IF PFS takes it and you've earned it, that's fine...it's just not a good sample character for a baseline 9th level fighter. You'd have to throw out almost 20k worth of gear to bring him back down to a level acceptable to a straight, conservative level 9 fighter!
==Aelryinth
Aye. trying to argue "my character is a great scout as long as I get buffs", be it from spells or potions, just makes me roll my eyes. Unless you can provide the buffs yourself, it's never, ever a brush you can paint with in every campaign.
Basically, if you can't get the buffs, you're not a scout. That means it's the buffs, not the class, doing the work.
==Aelryinth
The argument isn't that Shallow's scout is a "great scout", but that Shallow's scout is a "competent scout" while still retaining all of the base features of a fighter, meaning he's almost certainly a much BETTER fighter than, for example, a rogue scout.
And again, the potion is not necessary for scouting. It's reserved for special occasions where scouting is particularly difficult or is particularly critical to be successful.
In fact, most of my "great scouts" (meaning rogue or ranger scouts) use the same technique for the same reason. A little invisibility never hurt any scout attempt.
OK, now I'm done. :)
You guys forgot my marbles, which helped me hold of a horde of ghouls :)
masterwork marbles are only 101 gp. 1 gp if not masterwork! It's like trying to count non-magical ammunition...which, I also noticed, is not on your list! :)
==Aelryinth
Aye. trying to argue "my character is a great scout as long as I get buffs", be it from spells or potions, just makes me roll my eyes. Unless you can provide the buffs yourself, it's never, ever a brush you can paint with in every campaign.
Basically, if you can't get the buffs, you're not a scout. That means it's the buffs, not the class, doing the work.
==Aelryinth
The argument isn't that Shallow's scout is a "great scout", but that Shallow's scout is a "competent scout" while still retaining all of the base features of a fighter, meaning he's almost certainly a much BETTER fighter than, for example, a rogue scout.
And again, the potion is not necessary for scouting. It's reserved for special occasions where scouting is particularly difficult or is particularly critical to be successful.
In fact, most of my "great scouts" (meaning rogue or ranger scouts) use the same technique for the same reason. A little invisibility never hurt any scout attempt.
OK, now I'm done. :)
None of which is class dependent. As pointed out, you can make the same claim for a paladin, or a commoner...or a wizard, but he'd just use his class features for the same thing, which means you have to compare it to a class feature...and the fighter doesn't have it.
So, it's comparing a 'concept build' to the 'fighter class', which is apples and oranges. I completely agree that potions, scrolls, wands and stuff like that can come in very useful at times you want stuff to be successful.
at the same time, none of that stuff is a class feature for the Fighter. It is for a lot of spellcasters.
===Aelryinth
a wizard can be competent at stealth, as long as they don't dump dexterity. not the king of stealth, but enough to potentially deal with lower level foes.
in fact, a hermean experiment wizard can take stealth and disable device as class skills at 1st level. and gain diplomacy and perception as class skills with a 3rd level feat on cosmopolitan.
now you have a viable substitute rogue. it doesn't have the highest numbers,but it can scout, deal with traps, and perform face duty.
Yes, absolutely correct. Or, he can learn invisibility and fly, and generally be excellent at stealth without having to blow ranks, traits and feats on them, using class features.
Another note on consumables: Temporary buffs are always full of win. If you go back tot he Oct 8, 2012 blog, there's a PFS guy trotting out what he calls winning tools for pFS play. 90% of them are consumables!
And a golembane scarab is only 2500 gp? everyone should have one...
==Aelryinth
A wizard can spend one of their low-level spell slots to turn invisible and become far better at stealth than the rogue could ever imagine.
A wizard can spend one of their low-level spell slots to turn invisible and become far better at stealth than the rogue could ever imagine.
for a number of minutes equal to their level, or until they take a hostile action. it does help make summoning easier. it also helps with short term scouting.
but until the high levels, the duration is limited and it cuts heavily into the wizard's resources.
it can also be countered by a glitterdust spell, a bag of flour worth 2 copper pieces, or even a pet dog.
A wizard can spend one of their low-level spell slots to turn invisible and become far better at stealth than the rogue could ever imagine.for a number of minutes equal to their level, or until they take a hostile action. it does help make summoning easier. it also helps with short term scouting.
but until the high levels, the duration is limited and it cuts heavily into the wizard's resources.
it can also be countered by a glitterdust spell, a bag of flour worth 2 copper pieces, or even a pet dog.
And, iirc, there is a Will save. And noise is an issue, unless you want to cast another level 2 spell, Silence, and get 1 round per level protection from that...
There's no save against Glitterdust's anti-invisibility aspect. If it hits your area you're Glitterdusted and sparkling for 1 round per caster level unless someone dispels it.
I was referencing Invisibility and Silence for the Will save if you were posting to me...
But, as the 'scout' fighter build notes, you only need to use the spells for a few minutes when Scouting is in demand. At that time, it's as good as you need to do what you want to do.
If we were talking long term, constant use, the nod goes to high Stealth ability. Unfortunately, long term use is VERY rare in the game. Melee would be far more prominent if it were.
One of the great powers of casters is the fact that they don't need to be awesome at a specific function all the time, when they can be awesome when they need to be awesome.
I posit a flight or levitate spell will serve admirably for moving silently in most cases, as well. Silence, being a wall of sound, can give itself away by muting sounds that are supposed to be there. But you're not going to be making sounds from moving if you're floating along in mid-air...
This is why his concept build can work. It says nothing for the Fighter class, it's just a fact of the game as it stands.
==Aelryinth
I was referencing Invisibility and Silence for the Will save if you were posting to me...
There's no save against Glitterdust's anti-invisibility aspect. If it hits your area you're Glitterdusted and sparkling for 1 round per caster level unless someone dispels it.
No, only if you try to make an unwilling target invisible (which would almost never come up), or try to cast silence on an unwilling target. There's no save to detect an invisible target.
BTW, I still don’t understand why fighters only have 2 skills per level since “everyone else with 2 skill point is ridiculously loaded with supernatural powers and abilities” (as pointed out by Proftobe).
I don't really mind if the Fighter has only 2 skill points per level. However, I do mind that he has only 2 skill points per level while not being a better FIGHTER than the Barbarian/Paladin/Ranger.
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I'm going to ignore the whole Batman and invisibility potions and whatever debate as I think it is irrelevant to anything ever.
To the various people who have suggested fighter fixes involving better/earlier/bigger weapon training, and such, I really doubt that is the ideal solution. One thing that is likely easy to lose track of in debates over which martial class can deal the most damage is that all of them can easily deal more than enough damage if you put your mind to it. So in actual play it matters a fair bit less who is damage king.
So instead, having identified fighter weaknesses as I feel they exist (least versatile class in play, for example) I think it would be more profitable to address those.
Off the top of my head, what if fighter could retrain all their feats and weapon training every morning with an hour's weapon practice? Not a numbers boost, a versatility boost.
Maybe immersion breaking for some - I admit to being halfway in that spot myself already. On the other hand people apparently have no problem with barbarians punching magic itself, so you never know.
There's no save against Glitterdust's anti-invisibility aspect. If it hits your area you're Glitterdusted and sparkling for 1 round per caster level unless someone dispels it.
I was referencing Invisibility and Silence for the Will save if you were posting to me...
No, only if you try to make an unwilling target invisible (which would almost never come up), or try to cast silence on an unwilling target. There's no save to detect an invisible target.
that's what I get for posting without thinking. Thanks for reminding me to think :)