I disagree, they already can bypass DC of dex based skills. What level need are tricks that other calsses do not steals, Like the skill tricks from scoundrel. That way their mastery in skill would be a great thing to have.Rogues need a bonus in Dex-based skills equal to half their level.
Withdrawn. . .
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'd also like to withdraw the granting of half their skill level to Spellcraft and Knowledge(Arcana) to Wizards. . .
Sometimes I think Paizo really should have 'reinvented the wheel'. One thing that came to mind in regards to the Fighter's skill ranks per level; Exactly why does each class have the amount of skill ranks that it has? I see it go from 2-8 which makes me assume that 2 is bad, 4 is average, and 6 is good with 8 being the excess much like barbarian has 12 as an excess, but I don't know what the standard is for allotting them.
|
I think that rogues with a bonus equal to half their level on dex skills is a good idea. It makes sense that the stealthy pickpocketing shifty character would be quick and agile, but instead what if it was just stealth, acrobatics, and slight of hand?
Also, for the skill discussion, If you have a low diplomacy, its not what you are saying that can not convince the NPC to be friendly, its how you say it. If you have a low charisma, something about you is generally unlikable, and the reverse is true if you have high charisma. If you have a high diplomacy, your voice and gestures are convincing enough to get your point across. It isn't that if you have a low charisma and diplomacy, then you are an ugly dude who nobody sees as fit to do anything necessarily, but maybe that you have a stammer or twitch. Just like if you have a high charisma and plenty of ranks in diplomacy, you aren't inherently attractive, just self-confident and you speak smoothly and clearly. Your dialog is not very important for your intimidate/diplomacy.
Ahem. It's getting to the point where some of us, no names supplied, are just screaming at each other. The arguments haven't changed and nobody is "convincing" anybody. Maybe you should tone it down or drop it? The thread is about the main problem with Fighters. The person who doesn't think they have any problems should just say that and maybe move on. I think their opinion is pretty much "on the record". Then other people can discuss it and either make suggestions, for those people who think there is a problem, or maybe move it to the homebrew section and work on what they consider solutions. Before you get this all too long thread locked over the bickering. My 2 cp.
Sometimes I think Paizo really should have 'reinvented the wheel'. One thing that came to mind in regards to the Fighter's skill ranks per level; Exactly why does each class have the amount of skill ranks that it has? I see it go from 2-8 which makes me assume that 2 is bad, 4 is average, and 6 is good with 8 being the excess much like barbarian has 12 as an excess, but I don't know what the standard is for allotting them.
The sad part is it's going to be a while before there's any Pathfinder 2.0. Until then, better to look at 3PP that address these issues. Course, there are still issues ( Talented Fighter from SGG *STILL* has 2+Int skill points!! ), so it comes to players making house rules . . .
|
|
So to summarize possible fixes on the last x pages
1.)Redesign feat (which there is a thread here
2.)give them more skill ranks (or not or make it optional or make feats compensate)
3.)give them a bonus on physical ability based skills and jump equal to half their level
4.)Make feats better for them
5.)make good, average, and poor saving throws
6.)give fighters exotic weapon proficiencies at a certain level equal to 3+STR.
Any that I missed?
Ahem. It's getting to the point where some of us, no names supplied, are just screaming at each other. The arguments haven't changed and nobody is "convincing" anybody. Maybe you should tone it down or drop it? The thread is about the main problem with Fighters. The person who doesn't think they have any problems should just say that and maybe move on. I think their opinion is pretty much "on the record". Then other people can discuss it and either make suggestions, for those people who think there is a problem, or maybe move it to the homebrew section and work on what they consider solutions. Before you get this all too long thread locked over the bickering. My 2 cp.
While there may be many fixes and re-balancing that may yield a better game, I think the best way to "Fix the Fighter" actually lies in his in-combat function and can be fixed by releasing less feats like "Strike Back" and more feats like "Pin Down", "Stunning Assault", "Combat Reflexes", and "Blind Fight". I do dislike how there are only enough feats to make 3-4 viable Weapon Focus Tree fighters viable.
In a game like pathfinder, you are already given more out-of-combat options than every provided in other forms of interactive entertainment. Would adding more skill points give more out-of-combat options? Yes. Does making perception a class skill for paladins and fighters help them? Yes. Are these easy fixes that Paizo can do without errata? No. Can they release more feats? Yes. Will they release feats that make other feats obsolete? I doubt that. The people at Paizo believe they have and are doing a good job at balancing the game and only make little gradual changes at a time (Monk errata).
If you want to see what will help balance your home games, look to PFS. No health roles. Two traits. Stops at lvl 12. That last one should tell you where paizo has balanced the game for. Adventuring beyond 12th requires things that organised play does not allow for: A well balanced party, consistent PCs, and a GM with sufficient mastery of the rules (he knows how to handle situations not explicitly specified in the rules). Since most games never get to 12 anyways, I wonder at everyone's personal problems with the fighter.
My own horror story was a 3.5 combat maneuver focused fighter that ended the campaign only swinging his sword as a viable tactic, leaving most of his feats useless. This came from poor understanding of the rules and feat selection. Regardless, this was quickly fixed by the DM finally handing out magical gear, and giving out gear with enough extra bonuses to mimic the WF tree I didn't pick up.
Any pathfinder fighter I make will feel like my 3.5 fighter thrown into overdrive and my 3.5 fighter was still able to solo melee brute dragons and dominate dialog out of combat. He also had an excellent back story.
Bravery is too weak as it is; doubling the amount bravery gives works, OR
Double the rate at which Fighters heal. This increases by 1 each time bravery would.
So to summarize possible fixes on the last x pages
1.)Redesign feat (which there is a thread here
2.)give them more skill ranks (or not or make it optional or make feats compensate)
3.)give them a bonus on physical ability based skills and jump equal to half their level
4.)Make feats better for them
5.)make good, average, and poor saving throws
6.)give fighters exotic weapon proficiencies at a certain level equal to 3+STR.Any that I missed?
You left out the egregiously bad fixes like "nerf casters until they suck too" and "give fighters spell-like abilities like teleport".
Neither of those ideas had much traction, but your summary covers everything that people have agreed on or are arguing about.
|
|
You left out the egregiously bad fixes like "nerf casters until they suck too" and "give fighters spell-like abilities like teleport".
Ah yes.
3.)everyone debating the idea of making casters suck4.)everyone saying fighters need SLAs to be effective
and
5.)fighting over whether or not their is a problem with fighters
Now can we get any new ideas for fixing fighters? or does someone want to playtest ideas suggested above?
Up WBL a little. Casters get diminishing returns with money up until the point they are buying scrolls of Gate/Wish.
More money given out evenly should help the more Christmas tree dependent melee classes and may allow casters to feel like buying some armor items would not be a complete waste of gold (After lvl 7 most of my non-armor wearing casters are content with having 10 AC because it cost metric tons of gold to get enough AC that the monster rolling a 2 would miss).
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So I've been reading up on this thread the past few days, I'm only on post 2200 so of I say anything that's an undead horsein the past 600 or so don't shoot me too much.
The main problems I've seen (an possible addresses to those problems)
1. Out of combat utility
I agree on 4+ Int here. Standard fighter feats plus somewhere between 2-4 additional skills picked from a list (know nobility, handle animal, heal, etc.). Make sure they are fighter themed, but vary them or the leader or te footman build ideas.
2. Vulnerability
Fort as a class skill and one flexible save. I'm also supporting scaling feats to a degree. Also, see the next part.
Another thing is I've always thought armor training was a bit weak (the movement was cool but the rest was meh). The Viking Arhetype definitely took it the right way. Making the max dex increase instead a dodge bonus is the right way to go here.
3. In combat versatility. "I full attack (when I rarely can)" is boring. I move to get there is worse)
I think grit is the key mechanic to work off of here. It is mundane, but heroic, and that is the heart of the fighter.
Drive is based on drive points. Unlike other resource based mechanics, this ability starts at zero everyday and builds up as the fighter faces and conquers his trials. A drive pool can never start at more than half his total drive pool(see feats and favored class options)The maximum drive a fighter can have is equal to his fighter level.
Drive is generated: every third round of combat(I can see this being every two. Also, rounds roll over, so if a fight took five rounds after te first round of the next fight you'd get a drive point), defeating an enemy (kill, knock unconcious, be the one that forces a surrender), scoring a critical hit, being critically hit, failing a saving throw against a debilitating effect, performing a non-drive enhanced heroic act (similar to the gunslinger daring act, up to GM discretion)
Spending drive: there are many ways to spend drive, each making the fighter more effective in combat, durable, or versatile. (I have yet to decide if these abilities are based on level, always available, or acquired one at a time given out every level or every other)
Adrenaline Rush: As a swift action, the fighter can spend 1 point from his drive pool to take a -2 penalty to all of his attacks to gain an extra attack at his highest base attack bonus. If the fighter has the Two-weapon fighting feat, the fighter makes an additional attack at his highest BaB with both his mainland and offhand weapon. Below half health, the fighter instead gains a +2 to all of his attacks instead of a -2 as his sudden frenzy threatens to overwhelm his foe.
In the Nick(spellcheck?) of Time: when writhin 5ft of the edge of a spell effect, the fighter can, as an immediate action, spend a drive to move up to his speed to avoid the effect. When below half health, the fighter gets a bonus to this movement equal to half his speed. (examples: foreball centered on you? lol nope! That wall of force planted in front of you to block ou off? Lol nope you're still in their face! This is the main ability I see to avoid battlefield control. Sorry I can't get you fly)
One Mind: The fighter is his own man. Whenever the fighter fails a will save, as an immediate action, the fighter can spend any amount of drive(minimum one) points to reroll the save with a bonus to the save equal to the amount of drive spent. When below half health, the fighter ignores any effect from a successful save.
Fateful Leap: One mind, but for Reflex
Fiery Blood: Yup, Fortitude now
Onslaught: The fighter strengthens his blows in a sudden surge of motivation. As a swift action, the fighter can spend any amount of drive points to increase the damage of all of his attacks by the same amount of drive he spent (standard str modifiers apply. Ex 2H gets 1.5x damage. Double Slice applies). The fighter passively gets a bonus to damage equal to 1/4 of the current drive in his drieve pool When below half health, the bonus damage doubles.
These are just a few thoughts of Drive Powers. I'm sure more can be added, perhaps for an attack bonus similar to onslaught, or some kind I critical strike confirmer.
Potential other drive powers I was too lazy to write: reroll a save of an ability you're currently under. Been under dominate and been in combat long enough to get some drive? Fight back!
Some drive powers that modify jumps or other skills. Get a climb speed or swim speed? Spend some drive to get a bonus to jump (and maybe add your str mod? Seriously while was jump made dex based?)?
These are some sample feats available to modify a fighter's drive pool or powers. These are all combat feats.
Forever motivated
Prereqs: Drive pool, fighter level 8
Always start the day with 2 points in the drive pool.
Special: this feat can be taken again at a minimum of 12th and 16th levels. Each time the starting drive pool is increased by 2.
Vast motivation
Prereqs: Drive pool, fighter level 4
A character who takes this feat increases the maximum of his drive pool by 2.
Special: This feat can be taken multiple times. The total amount of drive possible can never exceed fighter level x1.5
Determination
Prereqs: Drive pool, fighter level 5
A fighter never flinches at daunting odds; rather, he relishes the opportunity to succeed where others might fail. The fighter gains DR/- equal to the amount of drive currently in his drive pool. (this is a big one I wonder at balance for. Given that Barbs have constant DR and the drive is hopefully always fluctuating, I don't see it as too dangerous. Should I make this stackable with other sources of DR/-?
Unbeatable Determination
Prereqs: Fighter level 10, Determination
A fighters determination is unparalleled. A fighter with this feat gains the following drive power: Unbeatable Determination. As an immediate action after attacks are declared but before they are rolled a fighter can spend any amount of drive to gain DR/- equal to twice the drive spent. This lasts until the beginning of the fighter's next turn. When below have health, the fighter also gains temporary hit points equally to three times the drive spent. These temporary hit points last an hour.
I can definitely see more drive feats along these lines.
Human: add 1/4 to the fighter's daily starting drive
Dwarf: Add 1/4 to the fighter's total drive
Halfling: whenever a fighter gains a drive point (not by starting with it at the beginning of the day, such as from Forever motivated) add 1/6 to the amount of drive gained (round down)
Is drive a bit too powerful? Are there drive powers/feats I should add to this? Should this replace other abilities, and if so, which? Is the costing right?
I really like this, I may have to play test it in my Jade Regent campaign.
Current Unique Strength of a Fighter: The ability to specialize in a specific weapon to a greater degree than anyone else (sure other classes can cheat into Weapon Specialization, but they can't get Weapon Training and Gloves of Dueling!)
Problem: Unlike a caster that specializes into a school and thence chooses spells of that school as he levels up, a Fighter has no control over getting the appropriate weapon as loot besides chance or the mercy of the DM.
Is this a good unique strength? If so, should a Fighter somehow be able to control that he gets the loot in his chosen weapon type, perhaps a ritual to transfer the enchantment between weapons by sundering them (replacing the old enchantments on his weapon for the new ones?) A bound weapon similar to the Blackblade Magus (perhaps unintelligent, more like the Paladin's Divine Bond but always on, and with the ability to change which weapon he's bonded to via swearing a new oath or something?)
Edit: I like the idea of Fighter Grit.
That's 2 people running Jade Regent. .
You're not with the same group as Jess Door by any chance, are you?
Current Unique Strength of a Fighter: The ability to specialize in a specific weapon to a greater degree than anyone else (sure other classes can cheat into Weapon Specialization, but they can't get Weapon Training and Gloves of Dueling!)
Problem: Unlike a caster that specializes into a school and thence chooses spells of that school as he levels up, a Fighter has no control over getting the appropriate weapon as loot besides chance or the mercy of the DM.
Is this a good unique strength? If so, should a Fighter somehow be able to control that he gets the loot in his chosen weapon type, perhaps a ritual to transfer the enchantment between weapons by sundering them (replacing the old enchantments on his weapon for the new ones?) A bound weapon similar to the Blackblade Magus (perhaps unintelligent, more like the Paladin's Divine Bond but always on, and with the ability to change which weapon he's bonded to via swearing a new oath or something?)
Edit: I like the idea of Fighter Grit.
DM mercy or magic mart are your answer. A plus 10 mace (5 enhancement 5 special) can be sold to buy a plus 7 great sword (5 enhancement 2 special).
As long as random loot is un optimized (same special bonus and enhancement bonus) you can always sell and buy a lesser your weapon version.
DM mercy is better. It's not that hard to mess with the loot table a bit.
I can't imagine Bilbo being handed a great axe instead of a shortsword and being told to "deal with it that's what loot we found".
These are *GREAT* ideas, and they help out the Fighter a lot! What about, say, spending Drive points to threaten a critical? Only if the original die roll was, say, 3 or less than the range you normally threaten a critical at....
Poor answers, in my opinion. DM Mercy is unreliable and shouldn't be necessary to be able to use half of your feats and half of your remaining class features (so half of the fighter class I guess), and I don't find the idea of selling level appropriate loot at 50% very appealing when any other martial class will just switch to whatever the new on-level weapon looted was without skipping a beat.
Well I'll just point out D&D NEXT's idea of fun.
The fighter gets so many d6's a day that he can roll to boost one of his other rolls or to determine damage for a special attack.
Poor answers, in my opinion. DM Mercy is unreliable and shouldn't be necessary to be able to use half of your feats and half of your remaining class features (so half of the fighter class I guess), and I don't find the idea of selling level appropriate loot at 50% very appealing when any other martial class will just switch to whatever the new on-level weapon looted was without skipping a beat.
How many actual fantasy stories have you read where the hero is demanded to trade out his weapon type, unless he does that thing normally?
One of my favorite moment in Berserk (Manga you should read if you like manga at all) is that when given the option to trade out his mammoth great sword for a magical grate axe that commands the powers of fire elementals, he turns it down because he prefers his great sword that he has already slaughtered thousands of demons with.
Later the Hypothetical DM gives him some cool armor.
|
|
These are *GREAT* ideas, and they help out the Fighter a lot! What about, say, spending Drive points to threaten a critical? Only if the original die roll was, say, 3 or less than the range you normally threaten a critical at....
I was considering some critical based drive abilities.
How about:
Critical Master: Fighters are able to eke out the most dangerous of strikes more often than others. As a swift action, the fighter can spend points from his drive pool to increase the threat range of his weapon for one turn. The ratio for crit range enhancement is 1 crit range: drive spent/critical modfier. So if a fighter spent 4 drive he can make a 19-20 x2 weapon 17-20 x2 or a 20 x4 weapon 19-20 x2. This ability stacks with effects like keen or improved critical, but is not modified by them. (hence spending 4 drive on a keen scythe makes it 18-20x4 not 17-20). As an immediate action the fighter can spend drive at the same ratio to increase the critical range for a single attack after it has been rolled. If the fighter is below half health, the critical modifier is also increased by an amount equal to drive spent/6.
I feel this ability can be a bit more powerful, and might be a feat requiring critical focus or mastery or something like that.
I like most of the Drive bonuses to saving throws, but I still think Fighters getting only one good saving throw is a bad idea; Expand it to 2, with the Player choosing which his character is good at. Other than that, good stuff!!
Poor answers, in my opinion. DM Mercy is unreliable and shouldn't be necessary to be able to use half of your feats and half of your remaining class features (so half of the fighter class I guess), and I don't find the idea of selling level appropriate loot at 50% very appealing when any other martial class will just switch to whatever the new on-level weapon looted was without skipping a beat.How many actual fantasy stories have you read where the hero is demanded to trade out his weapon type, unless he does that thing normally?
One of my favorite moment in Berserk (Manga you should read if you like manga at all) is that when given the option to trade out his mammoth great sword for a magical grate axe that commands the powers of fire elementals, he turns it down because he prefers his great sword that he has already slaughtered thousands of demons with.
Later the Hypothetical DM gives him some cool armor.
Very few of course, in most fantasy stories heroes never switch weapons, because there's no concept of incremental magic weapons that heroes are expected to find every now and then, but he never falls behind in effectiveness for failing to find a superior magic weapon. Almost like his chosen weapon just scales with him.
|
|
I like most of the Drive bonuses to saving throws, but I still think Fighters getting only one good saving throw is a bad idea; Expand it to 2, with the Player choosing which his character is good at. Other than that, good stuff!!
In the #2 vulnerability section I mention have Fort core adding adding a flexible save of player choice. Thank you by the way, I hope it can add some interesting abilities to the fighter.
These are *GREAT* ideas, and they help out the Fighter a lot! What about, say, spending Drive points to threaten a critical? Only if the original die roll was, say, 3 or less than the range you normally threaten a critical at....
I was considering some critical based drive abilities.
How about:
Critical Master: Fighters are able to eke out the most dangerous of strikes more often than others. As a swift action, the fighter can spend points from his drive pool to increase the threat range of his weapon for one turn. The ratio for crit range enhancement is 1 crit range: drive spent/critical modfier. So if a fighter spent 4 drive he can make a 19-20 x2 weapon 17-20 x2 or a 20 x4 weapon 19-20 x2. This ability stacks with effects like keen or improved critical, but is not modified by them. (hence spending 4 drive on a keen scythe makes it 18-20x4 not 17-20). As an immediate action the fighter can spend drive at the same ratio to increase the critical range for a single attack after it has been rolled. If the fighter is below half health, the critical modifier is also increased by an amount equal to drive spent/6.I feel this ability can be a bit more powerful, and might be a feat requiring critical focus or mastery or something like that.
How about:
Critical Master generally only becomes available when the Fighter is reduced to half of his hit points or lower, but with a Feat, he can use it at will.
|
|
I sometimes write too much.These are *GREAT* ideas, and they help out the Fighter a lot! What about, say, spending Drive points to threaten a critical? Only if the original die roll was, say, 3 or less than the range you normally threaten a critical at....
How about:
Critical Master generally only becomes available when the Fighter is reduced to half of his hit points or lower, but with a Feat, he can use it at will.
That sounds good. The feat should probably have at least critical focus as a prerequisite. Plus that feat makes sure your spent drive isn't wasted.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Almost like his chosen weapon just scales with him.
Now there's an idea!
That sounds good. The feat should probably have at least critical focus as a prerequisite. Plus that feat makes sure your spent drive isn't wasted.I sometimes write too much.These are *GREAT* ideas, and they help out the Fighter a lot! What about, say, spending Drive points to threaten a critical? Only if the original die roll was, say, 3 or less than the range you normally threaten a critical at....
How about:
Critical Master generally only becomes available when the Fighter is reduced to half of his hit points or lower, but with a Feat, he can use it at will.
I like.
Almost like his chosen weapon just scales with him.Now there's an idea!
One that I had actually alluded to further down in my earlier post!
...A bound weapon similar to the Blackblade Magus (perhaps unintelligent, more like the Paladin's Divine Bond but always on, and with the ability to change which weapon he's bonded to via swearing a new oath or something?)
How about this :
Fast Recovery: The Fighter's healing rate multiplies by a factor equal to half the number of points he spends plus his normal rate ( thus a Fighter with a normal healing rate using 4 points would get x3 healing rate ). The healing rate can never go beyond 1/4 of his level.
If you want to give them a crit on use ability, make it one increment. So if you have a 19-20/2 it becomes 18-20/2. Critical thresholds are one of the most powerful melee options in the game. One increment and one increment only if it stacks with things like keen.
|
|
How about this :
Fast Recovery: The Fighter's healing rate multiplies by a factor equal to half the number of points he spends plus his normal rate ( thus a Fighter with a normal healing rate using 4 points would get x3 healing rate ). The healing rate can never go beyond 1/4 of his level.
What is this healing rate? Are you saying he spends this, gets hit by a CLW and it's a CSW(effectively?). It could work, might be a bit on the powerful side. You should specify the action and duration. For something like this, a full-round action that lasts for as for rounds equal to 1/4 drive spent would be good I think. This makes it more out of combat resource efficiency. For in combat I think the DR is a better option (and I don't think our goal here is to compete with LoH's staying power. That's stupid broken. Hence why I have a Fey Foundling Tiefling Paladin in PFS).
Shake Focus: A fighter bearing down on an enemy is like no other threat. When an enemy casts a spell within 30ft, the fighter can, as an immediate action spend up to 2 drive to force a concentration check DC 10+Intimidate modifier/2*drive spent+spell level. A failed check leaves the enemy shaken for 1 round. If the fighter is at half health or lower, the range of this ability doubles, and a failed concentration check leaves the enemy frightened for 1 round.
EDIT: I really don't like how I designed the DC for this. It's not balanced, as at high levels an optimized (even slightly) will make this a near auto fail. A base con check independent of the intimidate score seems lame though. I'd love suggestions to balance this DC.
It means the rate at which he recovers normally - that is, non-magically - doubles. Thus, if a Fighter recovered one HP every 2 hours he'd recover every 1 hour. As he gets higher up in level, he recovers more provided he spends more points. This lasts until the next time he sleeps or 1 day, whichever is first.
|
|
If you want to give them a crit on use ability, make it one increment. So if you have a 19-20/2 it becomes 18-20/2. Critical thresholds are one of the most powerful melee options in the game. One increment and one increment only if it stacks with things like keen.
I Agree with you to a degree. This can be a very powerful ability. I hope the cost and the later addition of only below half w/out a feat will limit abuse. I hope to play test this variation to determine if it's overpowered. The biggest factor will be drive generation. There are so many options that can burn a swift or immediate, and so many of those immediates are lifesavers they may prefer to limit their use of this ability if drive is too limited a resource.
|
|
It means the rate at which he recovers normally - that is, non-magically - doubles. Thus, if a Fighter recovered one HP every 2 hours he'd recover every 1 hour. As he gets higher up in level, he recovers more provided he spends more points. This lasts until the next time he sleeps or 1 day, whichever is first.
The only rule I'm familiar with for non-magical healing is resting at night. Beyond that its fast healing and direct healing magic. I see how you could potentially use this ability to burn excess drive at the end of the day to heal more.
Overnight healing rate doesn't really matter Caligastia, in a game in which clerics and oracles can spontaneously cast cures with their remaining slots before a rest.
Well this thread has convinced me that there are actually very few problems with the fighter.
Unlike my "How useless is a skillmonkey rogue?" thread, this hasn't reduced into constant comparison of how other class outright do the fighter's job better than the fighter and how the fighter's job isn't worth all that much.
Contrary to that, I've found the "main problem with fighters" is that they have a lot of trap options and many of them are in the CRB.
This thread has eaten enough portions of my precious life span.
Up WBL a little. Casters get diminishing returns with money up until the point they are buying scrolls of Gate/Wish.
I haven't noticed this, save perhaps at the very upper levels. Not to mention that with the current crafting rules, it's much easier for casters to effectively double their WBL by crafting their own gear.
trap options? *blink*
The Drive ability is a great solver; It keeps the class interesting and a lot of fun to play!
Maybe Fast Recovery isn't as neccessary, but it gives the Fighter more options. ..and not beat by the Barbarian and Ranger. . .
|
|
I had another idea concerning skills that is more thematic than just making it 4+int. The fighter keeps his 2+int and his class skill pool, with two additions. At character creation a player may pick 3 skills from the following list o become class skills, representing the various fighter backgrounds: know nobility, handle animal, perception, acrobatics, stealth, know geography, know history, heal, fly(for races with constant flight). The second addition is the following: at first level the fighter selects a number of physical skills (listed next) equal to his Con modifier. Each of these skills get bonus skill ranks equal to his fighter level (max total skill ranks of his total character level). This shows how much a fighter can withstand in his regular training regimen. To access these bonus ranks the fighter must spend one hour training very day. At fourth level and every four levels thereafter the fighter may modify his training regimen, switching one skill for any other skill on the list. (this is lacking the flexibility some of you may want for a reason. This isn't a daily feat training, which I simply don't believe in. This training regimen is all about muscle memory.) list of physical skills: climb, swim, acrobatics, stealth, ride, escape artist, fly (provided the fighter has constant access to flight). The skills selected do not automatically become class skills.
|
|
Overnight healing rate doesn't really matter Caligastia, in a game in which clerics and oracles can spontaneously cast cures with their remaining slots before a rest.
You're right that in most cases the ability is irrelevant. However, it's a nice option for a few situations (I know it's not the standard PF style, but it's still a possibility. You can always elect to my use Fast Healing). In solo campaigns, it means the fighter may finally have a chance. He won't be entirely dependent on potions, as spending leftover drive makes resting significant. As for normal parties, it does still save resources in the case the "healer" expended most if not all of their slots. If you have excess drive, don't use a couple wand charges. It's minor, but it's still saving resources.
one thing I am thinking of that's a dramatic increase is swapping bravery for full out immunities selected from the mercies list. Then add in the stipulation that it doesn't apply to conditions granted by class features the fighters possess(no rage cycle for you mr. barbarian), and I think it's a start to bring the fighter up. It also can give the fighter balls (shrugs off fear, dirt in his eyes, etc)
Hows this for a bravery swap.
also as far as helping skills go, I found this on the board forever ago (apologies to the author, my search fu was weak in locating you)
Halve the # of skill points each class get's per level. So, Fighters/Wizards get 1, Rogues get 4, Bards get 3, etc.
Grant everyone skill points equal to their stat bonuses that can only be spent on skills associated with that stat.
So, someone playing a fighter with the following stats :
Str : 16 (+3)
Dex : 14 (+2)
Con : 16 (+3)
Int : 10 (+0)
Wis : 12 (+1)
Cha : 8 (-1)
Would have the following skill points to distribute :
Class : 1
Str : 3
Dex : 2
Wis : 1
Cha : -1
So they'd be very good at physical stuff, not so good at mental, and awful at charisma things.
You were allowed to trade 2 of one stat skill points to get 1 of another (so 2 str's to get one cha for example) to indicate concentrating more on diplomacy than on climbing or swimming.
Finally, if you had a negative stat, and you wanted to spend points on it, you had to spend enough that level to 'overcome' the negative. So from our example, if you wanted to put a point into diplomacy, you had to put spend your class point (1) to negate the -1 charisma skill level, then trade in two attribute skill points (1 str/1 dex, 2 str, 1 dex/1 wis, etc) to get another Cha skill point.
This worked really well, it gave people more skill ranks overall, but it also meant they usually ended up with skill curves that fit their stats, those who were smart ended up with lots of INT based skills, those who were really strong but not so bright (18 str/8 int) usually ended up with lots of climb and swim and not so many Knowledge skill.
EDIT : Note class skill points were 'unaligned' and could be spent on any skill.
I had another idea concerning skills that is more thematic than just making it 4+int. The fighter keeps his 2+int and his class skill pool, with two additions. At character creation a player may pick 3 skills from the following list o become class skills, representing the various fighter backgrounds: know nobility, handle animal, perception, acrobatics, stealth, know geography, know history, heal, fly(for races with constant flight). The second addition is the following: at first level the fighter selects a number of physical skills (listed next) equal to his Con modifier. Each of these skills get bonus skill ranks equal to his fighter level (max total skill ranks of his total character level). This shows how much a fighter can withstand in his regular training regimen. To access these bonus ranks the fighter must spend one hour training very day. At fourth level and every four levels thereafter the fighter may modify his training regimen, switching one skill for any other skill on the list. (this is lacking the flexibility some of you may want for a reason. This isn't a daily feat training, which I simply don't believe in. This training regimen is all about muscle memory.) list of physical skills: climb, swim, acrobatics, stealth, ride, escape artist, fly (provided the fighter has constant access to flight). The skills selected do not automatically become class skills.
This is good, overall.
also as far as helping skills go, I found this on the board forever ago (apologies to the author, my search fu was weak in locating you)
Halve the # of skill points each class get's per level. So, Fighters/Wizards get 1, Rogues get 4, Bards get 3, etc.
Grant everyone skill points equal to their stat bonuses that can only be spent on skills associated with that stat.
So, someone playing a fighter with the following stats :
Str : 16 (+3)
Dex : 14 (+2)
Con : 16 (+3)
Int : 10 (+0)
Wis : 12 (+1)
Cha : 8 (-1)
Would have the following skill points to distribute :
Class : 1
Str : 3
Dex : 2
Wis : 1
Cha : -1
So they'd be very good at physical stuff, not so good at mental, and awful at charisma things.
You were allowed to trade 2 of one stat skill points to get 1 of another (so 2 str's to get one cha for example) to indicate concentrating more on diplomacy than on climbing or swimming.
Finally, if you had a negative stat, and you wanted to spend points on it, you had to spend enough that level to 'overcome' the negative. So from our example, if you wanted to put a point into diplomacy, you had to put spend your class point (1) to negate the -1 charisma skill level, then trade in two attribute skill points (1 str/1 dex, 2 str, 1 dex/1 wis, etc) to get another Cha skill point.
This worked really well, it gave people more skill ranks overall, but it also meant they usually ended up with skill curves that fit their stats, those who were smart ended up with lots of INT based skills, those who were really strong but not so bright (18 str/8 int) usually ended up with lots of climb and swim and not so many Knowledge skill.
EDIT : Note class skill points were 'unaligned' and could be spent on any skill.
This is a pretty good system, and looks more appropriate to Fighter-based skills than the 4+Int system. It helps Fighters become the masters of the physical skills they should be.