|
@AD: it's not only about wanting to be better at SOMETHING but about getting nice things. And having something that sets you apart.
And the only thing special about the fighter is that he can do what he does consistently over a longer time. Which, in most cases, is irrelevant be cause the group will not go on when their ressources are spent because they want to let the fighter shine. No, they come back when they all can do their stuff.The fighter gets a feat at every level. That's cool. But it is not "wow! I've been waiting for that for X levels." And if there is a feat like that everyone and their brother can take the exact same feat, too.
There are those "fighter only" feats which only fighters and several archetypes can take. And what do they do? Are they cool? No, they add a little more to your big numbers.
What the fighters really needs is something else that feats every few levels. Like delete every second fighter bonus feat (level 2, 8, 12)and give him something else instead. A list of special abilities similar to rogue talents or discoveries and the like that only the fighter can get and that is cool (it doesn't have to be OP but it needs to be something nice)
** spoiler omitted **...
NO fighter powers!
Fighters don't need powers, feats enable you to do certain maneuvers so you don't them.
Play a Magus if you want a fighter with powers.
Our groups don't stop if the casters decide to go nova and blow everything they have nor does the game halt while we rest every two seconds. There are consequences for stopping in the middle of dungeons.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Umbranus, we will have to disagree.
When I play a fighter my fighter is always the best party member at fighting. Period.
When I play a fighter I generally will find some other out of combat role that the fighter can contribute and fill that role. The PF fighter I played sacrificed a couple of feats and ended up being the party face and UMD specialist. Being a UMD specialist gave him quite a bit of flexibility since all he had to do was carry a few low level scrolls and wands to do all sorts of things like levitate, heal, buff or cast utility spells.
He had plenty of "nice things". He was totally unique and valuable to the party.
I just don't get this constant assertion that fighters can't do stuff. My fighter did all sorts of stuff. Yeah, I had to BUILD HIM for it, but that wasn't too terrible and all it cost was a couple of feats. That didn't "ruin" his combat effectiveness, it just meant that he was maybe a +1 behind a totally optimized fighter whose only out of combat contribution might be a grunt here or there. I think trading a +1 overall for becoming a truly well rounded character was a fine trade off. And even with that +1 being sacrificed, he was still, by far, the most powerful warrior in the party.
|
|
Umbranus, we will have to disagree.
When I play a fighter my fighter is always the best party member at fighting. Period.
When I play a fighter I generally will find some other out of combat role that the fighter can contribute and fill that role. The PF fighter I played sacrificed a couple of feats and ended up being the party face and UMD specialist. Being a UMD specialist gave him quite a bit of flexibility since all he had to do was carry a few low level scrolls and wands to do all sorts of things like levitate, heal, buff or cast utility spells.
He had plenty of "nice things". He was totally unique and valuable to the party.
I just don't get this constant assertion that fighters can't do stuff. My fighter did all sorts of stuff. Yeah, I had to BUILD HIM for it, but that wasn't too terrible and all it cost was a couple of feats. That didn't "ruin" his combat effectiveness, it just meant that he was maybe a +1 behind a totally optimized fighter whose only out of combat contribution might be a grunt here or there. I think trading a +1 overall for becoming a truly well rounded character was a fine trade off. And even with that +1 being sacrificed, he was still, by far, the most powerful warrior in the party.
Agreed.
I think people are forgetting the point of feats, they are there to be spent and a fighter doesn't have to spend each and every one on pure combat. Nobody can spend feats and get the same
results like a fighter.
Umbranus, we will have to disagree.
When I play a fighter my fighter is always the best party member at fighting. Period.
When I play a fighter I generally will find some other out of combat role that the fighter can contribute and fill that role. The PF fighter I played sacrificed a couple of feats and ended up being the party face and UMD specialist. Being a UMD specialist gave him quite a bit of flexibility since all he had to do was carry a few low level scrolls and wands to do all sorts of things like levitate, heal, buff or cast utility spells.
He had plenty of "nice things". He was totally unique and valuable to the party.
I just don't get this constant assertion that fighters can't do stuff. My fighter did all sorts of stuff. Yeah, I had to BUILD HIM for it, but that wasn't too terrible and all it cost was a couple of feats. That didn't "ruin" his combat effectiveness, it just meant that he was maybe a +1 behind a totally optimized fighter whose only out of combat contribution might be a grunt here or there. I think trading a +1 overall for becoming a truly well rounded character was a fine trade off. And even with that +1 being sacrificed, he was still, by far, the most powerful warrior in the party.
you must clearly lack a barbarian. they are by far, the best beatstick.
when you get higher level, monsters are hitting the fighter on a 2 or better anyway. so the barbarian's HP, saves, and DR become far more important. especially with an invulnerable rager. a barbarian has more skills, and instead of being feat dependant, they are rage power dependant. and some (not all) rage powers are better than feats, most of the 1/rage abilities aren't worth investing till you can rage cycle. not because of their strength, they are quite strong, but because of their limited use, either they become wasted at the wrong opportunity, or they become horded for emergencies.
I disagree with giving a fighter to a newbie. While yes, it will be simple. A newbie should be playing a character that gives him a taste of everything. With a fighter, the newbie has very little to do outside of combat. He may find it very boring if he wants to do skill challenges or have more options than hitting it with his sword(at lower levels this is all he will be doing).One point to consider: Fighters can be designed to be 'simple' for players who do not want to keep track of complicated characters. Newbie character? give them a simple fighter build without many options.
For those of us that do not like simple fighters are still great because of the number of combat options. Personally, I love them. Will I play a fighter 'over' another class? No. I play whichever concept I feel like playing at the time and can have fun playing any core class.
- Gauss
I disagree with overloading a newbie to the point where they never want to play the game again. Some newbies are not prepared to run more complicated characters. Heck, some experienced people are not prepared to run more complicated characters. Some people just never gain the skills required. This game is for many different types. :)
- Gauss
Umbranus, we will have to disagree.
When I play a fighter my fighter is always the best party member at fighting. Period.
When I play a fighter I generally will find some other out of combat role that the fighter can contribute and fill that role. The PF fighter I played sacrificed a couple of feats and ended up being the party face and UMD specialist. Being a UMD specialist gave him quite a bit of flexibility since all he had to do was carry a few low level scrolls and wands to do all sorts of things like levitate, heal, buff or cast utility spells.
He had plenty of "nice things". He was totally unique and valuable to the party.
I just don't get this constant assertion that fighters can't do stuff. My fighter did all sorts of stuff. Yeah, I had to BUILD HIM for it, but that wasn't too terrible and all it cost was a couple of feats. That didn't "ruin" his combat effectiveness, it just meant that he was maybe a +1 behind a totally optimized fighter whose only out of combat contribution might be a grunt here or there. I think trading a +1 overall for becoming a truly well rounded character was a fine trade off. And even with that +1 being sacrificed, he was still, by far, the most powerful warrior in the party.
Agreed.
I think people are forgetting the point of feats, they are there to be spent and a fighter doesn't have to spend each and every one on pure combat. Nobody can spend feats and get the same
results like a fighter.
a fighter with dumped charisma can have decent diplomacy at the high levels at the cost of a trait. or even UMD, or even perception. or can gain multiple with a feat or few.
both of the skill boosting fighter archetypes give up a portion of the relevant armor proficiencies, and their first level feat. and out of 11 feats in 20 levels, 4 of them are, if you want to keep par, and eventually surpass a barbarian, forced into weapon specialization,but the return you make to be more well rounded, a barbarian can also get.
even if we don't count 16+ (i know i don't). you have 8 feats in 14 levels, 4 of which are spent specializing in a given weapon to keep up the combat numbers, giving you only 4 remaining feats, 3 if you are a tactician or lore warden. and if you decide to skip the specialization line, the barbarian will outdamage you.
the only rage powers a barbarian needs at 15th to be a viable combatant are
superstitious (save bonus), the shock trooper one (trade AC for attack bonus) and the beast totem line (pounce and natural armor). the other 2 are open to fluff as desired. the barbarian can get all 5 of these for free by 10th. and 4 of them by 6th with one feat or 8th without.
does there exist an archetype that gives fighters an extra bonus to their CMB and CMD?
buffing that could set them apart from everyone else... kinda
You mean like the Armor and Weapon Training that are exclusive to Fighters and allow them to do things that nobody else gets to do? The things you are asking for are already part of the class. They just aren't as easily swapped for tricks outside the core scope of the class as you seem to be demanding that they should be.
Come again?
What does Weapon Training allow the Fighter to do that nobody else can exactly?
does there exist an archetype that gives fighters an extra bonus to their CMB and CMD?
buffing that could set them apart from everyone else... kinda
The Brawler archetype adds some to Graple/Drag/Reposition, but also gets rid of Armor Training and limits him to Close Weapons for weapon training.
Still, Brawler is probably the most interesting of all Fighter archetypes. It has more fairly unique abilities than the base class does.
| 11 people marked this as a favorite. |
Come again?
What does Weapon Training allow the Fighter to do that nobody else can exactly?
It allows the fighter to be disappointed when he finds a +4 greataxe while he's using a +3 greatsword. No other class has that feature.
does there exist an archetype that gives fighters an extra bonus to their CMB and CMD?
buffing that could set them apart from everyone else... kinda
yes, the lore warden in the pathfinder society field guide. it gets 2 additional skill points per level that must be spent on intelligence based skills. it also gets in place of armor training, by 15th level, +8 to both CMB and CMD. it doesn't get the armor proficiencies however. but it can afford to have a rank in each knowledge skill, max linguistics, and a bit of spellcraft. it also trades the first step of bravery for free combat expertise. and still gets weapon training. it however sacrifices 90% of armor proficiency and all of armor training.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I dunno, Rage is pretty flexible.
Granted I'm not exactly happy with how Pathfinder implemented the limited rounds of Rage/Bardic Music, but meh.
may not be the greatest implementation, but it makes sense from a supernatural stamina standpoint.
you have your normal amount of stamina for normal things, but some abilities require tapping into a less natural reserve of energy, whether you call it mana, qui, ether, or Youki. it doesn't matter. you have only so much of this energy at a time, and you can only recover so much of it, and your body can only handle so much in reserve at a time.
in a sense, you can compare barbarians to the half-youma claymores. only without the regeneration and such.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Okay, who else gets increasing bonuses to attack and damage {edit}that stack with EVERYTHING ELSE{/edit} with entire categories of weapons as a class feature? What other ability out there provides that kind of bonus in such a flexible fashion?
Well for one thing "+1 to-hit and damage" is not a unique class feature. Anyone can get it from a wide variety of sources. If you want to get cheeky with it, Rage also adds +2 to-hit and damage, increasing to +4 at 20th (the exact same as Weapon Training 4), but it also increases his maximum/current HP, makes him better at Will saves by a good chunk, and gives him access to a whole bunch of ACTUALLY unique class features (Rage Powers).
See, here's evidence of fallout from the over-simplified base explanation of how to calculate CMB/CMD. The Weapon Training Bonus ALSO applies to all CMB/CMD checks involving a weapon from the selected category. As do the bonuses from both Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Focus.
That's because all things that give you pluses to-hit add to your CMB with weapon combat maneuvers like Trip. Weapon Focus isn't unique to Fighter either.
In other words, the basic Fighter Class ability, Weapon Training, provides a bonus like the one he was asking about. Most archetypes trade Weapon Training away for far less useful, let alone versatile, abilities.
Except it only works with weapon-based Combat Maneuvers, things like Disarm and Trip (and maybe Sunder. I've never actually seen a Sunder guy in action) that are useful at low levels but not so much past around level 8-10.
Fun thing is, since it's a bonus to Str, Rage adds to all Combat Maneuvers.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It allows the fighter to be disappointed when he finds a +4 greataxe while he's using a +3 greatsword. No other class has that feature.Come again?
What does Weapon Training allow the Fighter to do that nobody else can exactly?
I love these poor arguments. It really shows how many straws people really have to grab at.
Tell you what, I'll start using that one for every spellcaster argument. Awwww, you went in looking for X spell but could only find A which is one you already have.
Funny how there are supposed to he magic shops but in all these fighter arguments he just happens to find the opposite weapon he needs but Wizards or custom builds seem to have no problem.
Sad really.
or do what weekly william does, and for every major magical purchase, whether spell or item, not counting items worth less than 100 gold pieces, require a diplomacy check with a DC of 20+caster level to even find a seller, and a repeat diplomacy check to explain the item you desire, and another repeat diplomacy check for the transaction. fail any of the 3, the transaction just does not occur. no gold wasted, no item gained. if the item is very specific (such as a headband of intelligence that grants a very specific skill, leftover residuum, or few or something like a blessed book with specific spells, or an obscure enchantment) require another diplomacy check for each specific component (or spell level for spells).
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
A Barbarian will drain the healing ressources of the party faster than a Fighter because of his abysmal AC.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It allows the fighter to be disappointed when he finds a +4 greataxe while he's using a +3 greatsword. No other class has that feature.I love these poor arguments. It really shows how many straws people really have to grab at.
Tell you what, I'll start using that one for every spellcaster argument. Awwww, you went in looking for X spell but could only find A which is one you already have.
Funny how there are supposed to he magic shops but in all these fighter arguments he just happens to find the opposite weapon he needs but Wizards or custom builds seem to have no problem.
Sad really.
Check the availability guidelines for cities. Before you get to very high levels, spells are widely available in large cities, but any weapon with a bonus greater than +2 never becomes widely available.
Also, wizards can craft their own stuff. If the wizard can't find anyone to sell them a +2 headband, they can make one for themselves at half price in two days anyway. On the other hand, a fighter can
or do what weekly william does, and for every major magical purchase, whether spell or item, not counting items worth less than 100 gold pieces, require a diplomacy check with a DC of 20+caster level to even find a seller, and a repeat diplomacy check to explain the item you desire, and another repeat diplomacy check for the transaction. fail any of the 3, the transaction just does not occur. no gold wasted, no item gained. if the item is very specific (such as a headband of intelligence that grants a very specific skill, leftover residuum, or few or something like a blessed book with specific spells, or an obscure enchantment) require another diplomacy check for each specific component (or spell level for spells).
Ah, yes, requiring three consecutive high DC diplomacy checks will clearly make life much easier for the fighter. Problem solved.
A Barbarian will drain the healing ressources of the party faster than a Fighter because of his abysmal AC.
Eh, past the "auto-hit line" that doesn't matter much, and at lower levels a Barbarian can one-shot most anything anyway. He might be a slight drain at levels 7-9 or summat but before that he'll rarely get hit and after that it won't really matter.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
It allows the fighter to be disappointed when he finds a +4 greataxe while he's using a +3 greatsword. No other class has that feature.Come again?
What does Weapon Training allow the Fighter to do that nobody else can exactly?
I love these poor arguments. It really shows how many straws people really have to grab at.
Tell you what, I'll start using that one for every spellcaster argument. Awwww, you went in looking for X spell but could only find A which is one you already have.
Funny how there are supposed to he magic shops but in all these fighter arguments he just happens to find the opposite weapon he needs but Wizards or custom builds seem to have no problem.
Sad really.
I don't think you can out sarcasm Roberta.
EDIT: I remember Ashiel posting in a thread ages back about the probability of finding a desired weapon and it wasn't very likely. You had to roll on the table (many visits to many large population centers) to find anything resembling what you wanted.
Okay, who else gets increasing bonuses to attack and damage {edit}that stack with EVERYTHING ELSE{/edit} with entire categories of weapons as a class feature? What other ability out there provides that kind of bonus in such a flexible fashion?
Rangers (Favoured Enemy+Instant Enemy), Bards (Inspire Courage or the Archaeologist ability), Druids (Wildshape), Paladin (Divine Bond and Smite Evil+Evil Target), Inquisitor (Judgement and Bane). Then there are a host of spells out there that do the same thing. As Rynjin says adding +'s are not unique.
It allows the fighter to be disappointed when he finds a +4 greataxe while he's using a +3 greatsword. No other class has that feature.I love these poor arguments. It really shows how many straws people really have to grab at.
Tell you what, I'll start using that one for every spellcaster argument. Awwww, you went in looking for X spell but could only find A which is one you already have.
Funny how there are supposed to he magic shops but in all these fighter arguments he just happens to find the opposite weapon he needs but Wizards or custom builds seem to have no problem.
Sad really.
Check the availability guidelines for cities. Before you get to very high levels, spells are widely available in large cities, but any weapon with a bonus greater than +2 never becomes widely available.
Also, wizards can craft their own stuff. If the wizard can't find anyone to sell them a +2 headband, they can make one for themselves at half price in two days anyway. On the other hand, a fighter can
or do what weekly william does, and for every major magical purchase, whether spell or item, not counting items worth less than 100 gold pieces, require a diplomacy check with a DC of 20+caster level to even find a seller, and a repeat diplomacy check to explain the item you desire, and another repeat diplomacy check for the transaction. fail any of the 3, the transaction just does not occur. no gold wasted, no item gained. if the item is very specific (such as a headband of intelligence that grants a very specific skill, leftover residuum, or few or something like a blessed book with specific spells, or an obscure enchantment) require another diplomacy check for each specific component (or spell level for spells).Ah, yes, requiring three consecutive high DC diplomacy checks will clearly make life much easier for the fighter. Problem solved.
those diplomacy checks will also be required for the wizard to buy scrolls, potions, wands or spells worth more than 100 gold pieces, to buy enchanting materials (it is usually more than 100 gold pieces worth anyway that are required) and wizards have the same diplomacy issues as fighters.
both probably dump charisma. but the wizard requires the diplomacy check for his items too. to even get the materials.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yahoo, another "fighters have problems", "fighters suck", ... threads :-P
These never seem to die out.
To make it short from my side:
- Fighters work really well
- Fighters are pretty much the only truly mundane combat class. I like that!
- You don't need weird or predetermined backgrounds to explain why a fighter is what he is (no faith, arcane studies etc.)
- Fighters are consistent. And yes, our casters had to learn the hard day that we don't stop after novaing the first hour of a travel day. And when you can always stop when the other classes are out of juice, then you play a very different game then I do
- The feats are very flexible, particularly when you look at feats for UMD, eldritch heritage, skill focus etc.
- Fighters cannot be shut down by emotion calming effects (barbarians), are out of luck when encountering the wrong enemy (ranger), the enemy is not evil (paladin) etc.
- Focusing on combat only is a mistake by the player, not the class
- The fighter-only feats provide great options, e.g. to lock down foes, like teleport tactician
- They are wonderful with class dips
- Most of the above and some more has already been written, I just emphasize ;-)
Regarding the question what armor training and weapon training give you:
- Weapon training: Besides increasing the bonuses to hit and damage, you can also choose to ignore weapon spec and focus on other things if you like. And the bonuses to CMB/CMD you get are across a wide range of weapons. Finally, it's particularly useful for weapons where you can't get extra damage bonuses easily, e.g. a crossbow.
- Armor training: Fighter is the only class that can tumble (acrobatics) in heavy armor. Otherwise the only race I am aware of that can do it are dwarves. Finally, the improvements to armor check penalty allow a fighter to swim/climb etc. in armor.
If you are interested, search for Bob Loblaw's post regarding 40 (or more) things only fighters can do. Great stuff in there :-)
A Barbarian will drain the healing ressources of the party faster than a Fighter because of his abysmal AC.Eh, past the "auto-hit line" that doesn't matter much, and at lower levels a Barbarian can one-shot most anything anyway. He might be a slight drain at levels 7-9 or summat but before that he'll rarely get hit and after that it won't really matter.
I guess the the Barbarian ''wins'' in the long run, but only if you actually get to the high levels. As for one-shoting most anything during the lower levels, a Power Attacking Fighter can do that just as well. Plus, the Fighter do not need to take Raging Vitality as a feat tax just to survive. A Barbarian without Raging Vitality would be extremely lucky to make it to the high levels. Unless he takes Heavy Armor Proeficiency, a raging Barbarian is 10% more likely to get hit than an equally built Ranger and 25%+(5% per +1 extra Dex bonus granted by armor training) more likely to get hit than an equally built Fighter (feats not included). Saying that a Barbarian will rarely get hit until level 7-9 is just wrong, unless you're only fighting against 1st-level humanoids until level 7.
Here is my two cents on why fighters are awesome. As someone on the first page stated, they are always one. ALWAYS ON. Yeah, magic is great and powerful and all that, but watch the wizard become a paper weight in an antimagic field. Or, even simple, if someone snatches up a wizard and carries him off, good luck actually casting spells or actually escaping the grapple.
What does the fighter do in those situation? Everything. He wrestles his grappler to the ground or hits the lich creating the anti-magic feat. Oh no, the barbarian is more powerful. Yeah, for bursts. What happens if they spend all day fighting? Yeah, fighter don't stop. He never stops. He's goddamn rambo.
Every class has these abilities, but they run out. The Fighter doesn't rely on fleeting enhancements. He's just a skilled combatant. He fights all day long, relying solely on those things he has mastered and learned. There are a billion ways to handicap and cripple each class, but the Fighter is the most difficult to stop.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Here is my two cents on why fighters are awesome. As someone on the first page stated, they are always one. ALWAYS ON. Yeah, magic is great and powerful and all that, but watch the wizard become a paper weight in an antimagic field.
Fighters are so dependent on magical gear that the fighter becomes ridiculously vulnerable in an antimagic field too. To say nothing of how rare and limited antimagic fields are.
Or, even simple, if someone snatches up a wizard and carries him off, good luck actually casting spells or actually escaping the grapple.
It's not easy to grapple a wizard who is flying, or invisible, or shielded by Mirror Images. And even then, Freedom of Movement lasts a long time.
Yeah, fighter don't stop. He never stops. He's g##$&$n rambo.
Every class has these abilities, but they run out.
Do you house-rule that fighters automatically regain all HP for free after every combat?
If not, then the fighter stops quite abruptly.
Do you house-rule that fighters automatically regain all HP for free after every combat?
If not, then the fighter stops quite abruptly.
No need to house-rule that, wands of cure light wounds are cheap. Anti-magic fields screw up pretty much every classes out there.
My Fighter can always fight you. It is, in fact, forever fighting you. At longbow range, in melee, and everywhere in between. Is there a point when I'm not dropping a full-attack action at high level? No. Do I have enough feats left over to have the full Vital Strike tree when the impossible strikes and I can't drop a full attack action on someone? Yes.
Is the barbarian able to switch to a bow and still be effective? No. Is the Paladin going to be able to pull off the Fighter trick? Only if his target is evil, OR if he had a handy Divine Favor or Divine Power spell, and is high enough level to make them work...in which case, they're still only as effective as the Fighter using his Off-weapon. Rangers are fantastic switch-hitters, but only against their favored enemies. etc. etc. etc.
I just wish that Fighter had a better skill selection. Otherwise, I've got to agree with everyone else, they work just fine.
you must clearly lack a barbarian. they are by far, the best beatstick.
when you get higher level, monsters are hitting the fighter on a 2 or better anyway.
First, monster hitting witha 2 is just not true. It is probably 6+.
second, if the fighter get hitted with the first attack and second attack and the barbarian get hitted with all five monsters attack then the fighter have the advantage.
Third, all fights are not against BBEG. In a recent campaing the barbarian with a Low AC alsmot get killed in one turn by the arrows from hobgoblins. He recived 45 points of damae, every single arrow hit him. IN the same situation the paladin with a shield get hitted once for 5 of damage.
Yup, pretty much this. Only BBEGs can reliably hit a fighter while lowly grunts/mooks/sword-fodders or whaterver you call them can quickly put a Barbarian down if they are numerous enough.
Fighters are so dependent on magical gear that the fighter becomes ridiculously vulnerable in an antimagic field too. To say nothing of how rare and limited antimagic fields are.
They are far, far less vulnerable than mages. If you take away the magic on their armor and weapon, it's still armor and a weapon. He is still very capable of fighting, grappling, and defending.
It's not easy to grapple a wizard who is flying, or invisible, or shielded by Mirror Images. And even then, Freedom of Movement lasts a long time.
And what about a wizard that's surprised? What if something just pops out of a nook and grabs him? Wizards are great when they are prepared, but they do require that preperation. And, yeah, flying things can still grapple and there are things that have invisible sight.
Do you house-rule that fighters automatically regain all HP for free after every combat?
If not, then the fighter stops quite abruptly.
Potions are cheap. So are wands. And, everyone stops when they're dead, so I don't see how this is a valid point anyway.
And barbarians who invest in stupid amounts of Dr x/- can have low AC, because when you take -10 dmg per attack, you can take a LOT of hits.
Fighters can raise their CMD by +1 per Favored Class bonus in two manuvers. They don't get anything to HELP their attacks on manuvers, however.
I'd also like to point out that Lore Wardens don't generally give up much AC to a normal fighter, and that's because of Dex limits. The Armor Training is not a bonus, it's an allowance for Dex. The lightly armored Warden is always going to have his full Dex bonus, he doesn't NEED armor training. Light armor, esp celestial mail or an elven chain shirt, has a dex limit high enough that 90% of fighters will never reach it.
And using general feats to cover for your class is not an argument in support of a fighter class. When you talk fighter class, you talk about what the fighter class can do. As soon as you devolve to general feats, you've moved outside the argument and admitted weakness.
==Aelryinth
|
|
Fighters are so dependent on magical gear that the fighter becomes ridiculously vulnerable in an antimagic field too. To say nothing of how rare and limited antimagic fields are.They are far, far less vulnerable than mages. If you take away the magic on their armor and weapon, it's still armor and a weapon. He is still very capable of fighting, grappling, and defending.
It's not easy to grapple a wizard who is flying, or invisible, or shielded by Mirror Images. And even then, Freedom of Movement lasts a long time.And what about a wizard that's surprised? What if something just pops out of a nook and grabs him? Wizards are great when they are prepared, but they do require that preperation. And, yeah, flying things can still grapple and there are things that have invisible sight.
Potions are cheap. So are wands. And, everyone stops when they're dead, so I don't see how this is a valid point anyway.Do you house-rule that fighters automatically regain all HP for free after every combat?
If not, then the fighter stops quite abruptly.
Agreed.
I still think it's hilarious that people continue to use the flying fallacy as their defending argument. Why don't they understand the concept of the bow?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
You grapple with a bow now?
The Archer archetype can at 11th level. :)
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I guess the the Barbarian ''wins'' in the long run, but only if you actually get to the high levels. As for one-shoting most anything during the lower levels, a Power Attacking Fighter can do that just as well. Plus, the Fighter do not need to take Raging Vitality as a feat tax just to survive. A Barbarian without Raging Vitality would be extremely lucky to make it to the high levels. Unless he takes Heavy Armor Proeficiency, a raging Barbarian is 10% more likely to get hit than an equally built Ranger and 25%+(5% per +1 extra Dex bonus granted by armor training) more likely to get hit than an equally built Fighter (feats not included). Saying that a Barbarian will rarely get hit until level 7-9 is just wrong, unless you're only fighting against 1st-level humanoids until level 7.A Barbarian will drain the healing ressources of the party faster than a Fighter because of his abysmal AC.Eh, past the "auto-hit line" that doesn't matter much, and at lower levels a Barbarian can one-shot most anything anyway. He might be a slight drain at levels 7-9 or summat but before that he'll rarely get hit and after that it won't really matter.
At low levels barbarians share AC with fighters because heavy armor is unaffordable. The best armor that any martial can begin the game with is chainmail. From there, barring full plate, other heavy armors are pretty terrible (splint mail is +1 AC over chainmail or breastplate but at +0 maximum dexterity). At these levels there is very little difference between a fighter and barbarian in terms of AC when not raging, though the barbarian is faster and has the option to rage when needed which allows him to trade AC for killing power (which can in turn bring down enemies faster to avoid suffering more damage).
As levels rise, the issue of AC while raging more or less goes away in core due to rage powers like Guarded Stance (+1 dodge to AC for a number of rounds equal to Con, activated as a move action, which removes the penalty to AC at 6th level and at 12th and 18th level actually gives you a higher AC while raging), and Beast Totem just gives up to a +5 natural armor bonus during a rage (which stacks with guarded stance). Combined with superstition, higher HP, the option to wear mithral or celestial armors, and damage reduction, a barbarian can can easily match a fighter's defenses when not raging and crush them when he is raging.
The barbarian is the real martial mundane.
A fighter can have whirlwind attack at level 6.
Actually a fighter can grab whirlwind at level 4. Don't even need to be human.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
At low levels barbarians share AC with fighters because heavy armor is unaffordable. The best armor that any martial can begin the game with is chainmail. From there, barring full plate, other heavy armors are pretty terrible (splint mail is +1 AC over chainmail or breastplate but at +0 maximum dexterity). At these levels there is very little difference between a fighter and barbarian in terms of AC when not raging, though the barbarian is faster and has the option to rage when needed which allows him to trade AC for killing power (which can in turn bring down enemies faster to avoid suffering more damage).I guess the the Barbarian ''wins'' in the long run, but only if you actually get to the high levels. As for one-shoting most anything during the lower levels, a Power Attacking Fighter can do that just as well. Plus, the Fighter do not need to take Raging Vitality as a feat tax just to survive. A Barbarian without Raging Vitality would be extremely lucky to make it to the high levels. Unless he takes Heavy Armor Proeficiency, a raging Barbarian is 10% more likely to get hit than an equally built Ranger and 25%+(5% per +1 extra Dex bonus granted by armor training) more likely to get hit than an equally built Fighter (feats not included). Saying that a Barbarian will rarely get hit until level 7-9 is just wrong, unless you're only fighting against 1st-level humanoids until level 7.A Barbarian will drain the healing ressources of the party faster than a Fighter because of his abysmal AC.Eh, past the "auto-hit line" that doesn't matter much, and at lower levels a Barbarian can one-shot most anything anyway. He might be a slight drain at levels 7-9 or summat but before that he'll rarely get hit and after that it won't really matter.
However, if you want to optimize AC at 1st level, fighters and paladins can get better AC than barbarians and rangers if they try really hard. Take your 175 gp you begin with, start with chainmail (150 gp), buy a heavy wood shield (5 gp), armored kilt (20 gp), have a 14+ Dexterity (costs 5 PB), start with an explorers outfit (10 gp), sell for 5 gp to purchase a traveler's outfit (1 gp), leaving 4 gp left to purchase adventuring supplies. Wield clubs and slings, or go naked under your armor and buy a longspear to round yourself out. If you also take Shield Focus and Dodge, you can net AC 23 at 1st level. A full +15% evasion over most martials and their AC 20.
Main problem with fighters is they aren't Magus
What do magi have to do with anything?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The fighter is like any other class.
No. It’s the only martial class with only one good save and only two skills per levels.
It is the only DIY class. As such it fails. Barbarians on the other hand is a great DIY class even though it’s not meant to be one. At least not in the same fashion as the fighter.Have you notice that Barbarians can trade feats for rage powers so they have a whole lot of feats to pick from and a whole lot of rage powers to pick from.
Count rage powers and count fighter only feats.
IF we add spell casters it get worse.
Count paladin spells or ranger spells and count fighter only feats.
Fighter as a DIY class fails.
It is what you build it for. The problem is, most people try to build just for DPR and ignore everything else.
Edit.
Is there anything else? They are good at murdering things, but even then their toolbox is limited.
This:
The chief weakness of fighters isn't that they aren't good at murdering people, but instead that they're just not capable of doing anything but murdering people in a level-appropriate way. This isn't a fighters versus wizards issue, but instead an issue of why fighters are worse than everyone. After APG, every class (save possibly rogues) can contribute to combat in a level-appropriate fashion while also having at least a few skill-based schticks for solving problems which aren't "There's a guy over there, he needs to die now."
Let's go back to breadth of ability, reliability, and vulnerability to mishap.Fighters have an extremely narrow breadth of ability. Every significant combat schtick is feat-hungry, and feats generally offer little in the way of new abilities to solve problems. As a practical matter, fighters will have one form of combat they are good at, another form of combat they are poor at, and possibly one mediocre skill-based schtick if you chose your skills carefully. (Unfortunately, their general stat spread is poorly matched to the few problem-solving class skills.)
On top of this, you're still casting this in a PVP context, where spellcasters are fighting nonspellcasters. The chief weakness of fighters isn't that they aren't good at murdering people, but instead that they're just not capable of doing anything but murdering people in a level-appropriate way. This isn't a fighters versus wizards issue, but instead an issue of why fighters are worse than everyone. After APG, every class (save possibly rogues) can contribute to combat in a level-appropriate fashion while also having at least a few skill-based schticks for solving problems which aren't "There's a guy over there, he needs to die now."
Let's go back to breadth of ability, reliability, and vulnerability to mishap.
Fighters have an extremely narrow breadth of ability. Every significant combat schtick is feat-hungry, and feats generally offer little in the way of new abilities to solve problems. As a practical matter, fighters will have one form of combat they are good at, another form of combat they are poor at, and possibly one mediocre skill-based schtick if you chose your skills carefully. (Unfortunately, their general stat spread is poorly matched to the few problem-solving class skills.).
What do magi have to do with anything?Its a joke Ash, and long time no see :)
Hey there. ^.^