The barbarian doesn't have illiteracy anymore in Pathfinder.
Did I say something to the opposite effect?
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I'd say there is a potentially big drawback to the ranger: it doesn't match my heavily-armored, tower-shield wielding, exotic weapon-focused knight concept. Sure you could give a ranger heavy armor proficiency, tower shield proficiency, and exotic weapon proficiency, but then you'll have a crappy ranger rather than a good fighter. Rangers can't focus like a fighter can, nor can they demonstrate the sheer amount of combat versatility.
Can I see it so I can make sure of that?
Sure he won't beat him in AC but I'm fairly certain I could whip up a Ranger who's on par or better at pretty much everything else.
My Fighter Fix: Fighter gets their choice between the 3.5 Warblade and Crusader's maneuver/stances, Warblade and Crusader class features are made available as Fighter exclusive feats. 4 skills per level add Perception, Sense Motive, Acrobatics, and knowledge History.
Rogue Fix: Same deal but with the Sword Sage instead, switch SS class features and the like to work off of INT and let them be chosen as Rogue Talents. Give them the Warblade's recovery method
Fix the stance progression for both. Add Fax Celestis homebrew Falling Star Discipline
Monk Fix: Monk + DSP Psychic Warrior, remove PW armor profs, bonus feats, and monk Ki Points (Power Points are used to power all Monk Ki abilities). Can select TOB Martial Study/stance with bonus feats.
Open up ToB feats to all classes. Use Sense Motive skill in place of Concentration skill.
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I'd say there is a potentially big drawback to the ranger: it doesn't match my heavily-armored, tower-shield wielding, exotic weapon-focused knight concept. Sure you could give a ranger heavy armor proficiency, tower shield proficiency, and exotic weapon proficiency, but then you'll have a crappy ranger rather than a good fighter. Rangers can't focus like a fighter can, nor can they demonstrate the sheer amount of combat versatility.Except.for builds that focus on heavy armor & tower shields(maybe manuever focus) you can.build a ranger that does.it and generally does it better because of the ability to ignore preq and a lot more.skills. I think people get.hung up on the idea.of a ranger as a woodsman or scout and don't take the time to simply look at the fluff differently. Let me put it like this say the ranger completely ignored his ability to cast spells or take an animal companion and he still wins out over the fighter with just bonus feats skills and FE except for like I said before when the fighter ultra specializes in 1 weapon.
Sorry, there are just too many character concepts that I can't pull off effectively with ranger alone. I'm sure that anyone taking this discussion seriously would see that.
My Fighter Fix: Fighter gets their choice between the 3.5 Warblade and Crusader's maneuver/stances, Warblade and Crusader class features are made available as Fighter exclusive feats. 4 skills per level add Perception, Sense Motive, Acrobatics, and knowledge History.
Rogue Fix: Same deal but with the Sword Sage instead, switch SS class features and the like to work off of INT and let them be chosen as Rogue Talents. Give them the Warblade's recovery method
So... Your fix to fighter is play a warblade and your fix to rogue/monk is play a swordsage/phychic warrior?
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So... Your fix to fighter is play a warblade and your fix to rogue/monk is play a swordsage/phychic warrior?My Fighter Fix: Fighter gets their choice between the 3.5 Warblade and Crusader's maneuver/stances, Warblade and Crusader class features are made available as Fighter exclusive feats. 4 skills per level add Perception, Sense Motive, Acrobatics, and knowledge History.
Rogue Fix: Same deal but with the Sword Sage instead, switch SS class features and the like to work off of INT and let them be chosen as Rogue Talents. Give them the Warblade's recovery method
Hey, it worked for 3.5.
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Hey, it worked for 3.5.So... Your fix to fighter is play a warblade and your fix to rogue/monk is play a swordsage/phychic warrior?My Fighter Fix: Fighter gets their choice between the 3.5 Warblade and Crusader's maneuver/stances, Warblade and Crusader class features are made available as Fighter exclusive feats. 4 skills per level add Perception, Sense Motive, Acrobatics, and knowledge History.
Rogue Fix: Same deal but with the Sword Sage instead, switch SS class features and the like to work off of INT and let them be chosen as Rogue Talents. Give them the Warblade's recovery method
Have to agree there. I don't think I've ever played a martial who had half as many fun options as my 3.5 warblade.
I know, was commenting. Thats the main advice I've always seen for 3.5. I've told groups I really wouldn't mind playing a Warblade in pathfinder. Usually told "no homebrew" or "if we let one 3.5 thing in..." or something along those lines involving No but without the word no. I'm not keen on giving fighter crusader manuevers unless its refluffed. Warblades big thing was they couldn't do anything magical, while crusaders devoution maneuvers were their big gig.
Never seen it used in pathfinder though.
So... Your fix to fighter is play a warblade and your fix to rogue/monk is play a swordsage/phychic warrior?My Fighter Fix: Fighter gets their choice between the 3.5 Warblade and Crusader's maneuver/stances, Warblade and Crusader class features are made available as Fighter exclusive feats. 4 skills per level add Perception, Sense Motive, Acrobatics, and knowledge History.
Rogue Fix: Same deal but with the Sword Sage instead, switch SS class features and the like to work off of INT and let them be chosen as Rogue Talents. Give them the Warblade's recovery method
Basically. I always found one of the primary problems that the ToB classes had in perception was that people looked at them and said "No fair, they're a lot better than the Fighter/Monk/Rogue/Paladin. Overpowered!" People wouldn't accept them as "replacement" FIghters/Monks/Rogues as long as the original class was still around.
Also a lot of people who wanted to play a Fighter or Monk were attached to a particular mechanic of the class (IE Fighter bonus feats or Flurry of Blows and scaling unarmed damage dice) being something that, without, you simply weren't playing a Fighter (or Monk or whatever).
This way people don't say, "Nah, I don't want to play some 'Warblade', whatever that is; I want to play a Fighter, I like Fighters." They're more likely to say, "Oh, cool, now my Fighter gets a whole bunch of cool abilities."
My fighter fix
Create a separate list of fighter feats that only the fighter can pick with his class features. Make all of these feats scale with lvls like power attack. For example an iron will equivalent would give +1 will save with an additional plus 1 per 5lvls
The vital strike chain would be 1 feat.
Then state whether or not these feats stack with their normal equivalents.
At each Lvl they would get offensive training or defensively training.
The current class features would become these special feats and have to be selected.
So... Your fix to fighter is play a warblade and your fix to rogue/monk is play a swordsage/phychic warrior?My Fighter Fix: Fighter gets their choice between the 3.5 Warblade and Crusader's maneuver/stances, Warblade and Crusader class features are made available as Fighter exclusive feats. 4 skills per level add Perception, Sense Motive, Acrobatics, and knowledge History.
Rogue Fix: Same deal but with the Sword Sage instead, switch SS class features and the like to work off of INT and let them be chosen as Rogue Talents. Give them the Warblade's recovery method
Well...
Monk.
Ioun Torch vs Everburning Torch:
I feel I must correct something mentioned earlier in the thread.
The Ioun Torch is specifically a burned out Ioun Stone with Continual Flame thrown on it.
The Everburning Torch, however, is a magical item with Continual Flame as a spell pre-req on it. AMong other things, this means it can't be permanently countered or dispelled by rival Darkness spells...it will simply re-ignite after a short time, unlike the Ioun Torch.
Of course, I am still unsure how you manage to get a Continual Flame cast on anything for that cheap a price. It has been pointed out that making Everburning Torches is cheaper then getting Continual Flames hired out and cast.
==Aelryinth
So... Your fix to fighter is play a warblade and your fix to rogue/monk is play a swordsage/phychic warrior?My Fighter Fix: Fighter gets their choice between the 3.5 Warblade and Crusader's maneuver/stances, Warblade and Crusader class features are made available as Fighter exclusive feats. 4 skills per level add Perception, Sense Motive, Acrobatics, and knowledge History.
Rogue Fix: Same deal but with the Sword Sage instead, switch SS class features and the like to work off of INT and let them be chosen as Rogue Talents. Give them the Warblade's recovery method
Well...
Monk.
Oh I'm fine with it, that was the advice I always had for 3.5. I just don't feel like its a far step forward. I already advocated using ToB earlier in the thread so... I'm sort of guilty for it too.
Instead of feats they could have fighter training, which would just be a list of better feats that only the fighter could get.
My Fighter fix:
Only play up to level 6.
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As a lvl12 samurai I still pull my weight real well, but I use the resolve ability a ton to roll my will saves twice. I can see a fighter doing better in combat except his saves are poor hold him back (not necessarily the value but in only rolling once, no evasion, stalwart, or immunities).
I'm saying this to point out better feats (we do atleaset have some decent ones to choose) wont matter if we are unable to participate. More importantly it might not be fun.
Edit: also I think the only two good fighter feats are stand still and pin down.
Let Fighters (and Rogues) choose one archetype that they gain all the abilities of but don't have to give up any of the things that are normally traded away. So you don't lose Armor Training, or Bravery, or Weapon Training or whatever - you just get all the extras. There are a few cases where this creates weird stacking bonus situations, but the DM can just adjudicate them away so it makes sense. If I were to do just one simple houserule to help those classes out in my games, this would be it.
My Setting has 2 Paths a Fighter can pick.
Knight: Good Will Save and gains a boost to Diplomatic Skills.
Soldier: Good Reflex.
Though I am planning on changing it to where every Class typically has 1 Good Save, 1 Medium Save, and 1 Poor Save.
NOTE: A Medium Save ends up at a +9.
Perhaps the game wasn't written for players with top system mastery like many of the posters on the forum. From what I've read and my limited observations it seems that the obvious applications of the fighter brings it equivalent to, or even above, the more potent but more subtle uses of caster classes.
I'm not saying that it isn't an issue but in the caster/martial discourse there seems to be an understanding of the issue as a fundamental flaw repeatedly propagated by the creators whereas possibly the issue could be framed as not so much a problem with the system but that some experienced pathfinders have reached a higher level of play and thus as a niche are requiring something better suited to their level.
Not that this is a terribly useful contribution, just throwing out my 2 pesos.
Perhaps the game wasn't written for players with top system mastery like many of the posters on the forum. From what I've read and my limited observations it seems that the obvious applications of the fighter brings it equivalent to, or even above, the more potent but more subtle uses of caster classes.
I'm not saying that it isn't an issue but in the caster/martial discourse there seems to be an understanding of the issue as a fundamental flaw repeatedly propagated by the creators whereas possibly the issue could be framed as not so much a problem with the system but that some experienced pathfinders have reached a higher level of play and thus as a niche are requiring something better suited to their level.
Not that this is a terribly useful contribution, just throwing out my 2 pesos.
Honestly, I find it to be the opposite. Most people with system mastery can find a way to expand the martial's options beyond "I hit things with a sword" and deal with other common issues. It's the more casual players who are gonna be horribly tripped up by the disparity. For example, the "Rise of the Runelords" game I'm GMing had a big stumble last session because the party faced several flying opponents who had access to stuff like invisibility, dimension door, solid fog, and other nasty tricks, and the party's two melee characters run by fairly casual players just had no way of dealing with that kind of thing.
I would say that the general character level causes the disparity more than player skill level. The gap between casters and martials gets a lot worse as the levels go up, since magic just keeps getting stronger and stronger.
Archon-Blooded Aasimar. Innate spell like abilities have no material components.Ioun Torch vs Everburning Torch:
I feel I must correct something mentioned earlier in the thread.
The Ioun Torch is specifically a burned out Ioun Stone with Continual Flame thrown on it.
The Everburning Torch, however, is a magical item with Continual Flame as a spell pre-req on it. AMong other things, this means it can't be permanently countered or dispelled by rival Darkness spells...it will simply re-ignite after a short time, unlike the Ioun Torch.
Of course, I am still unsure how you manage to get a Continual Flame cast on anything for that cheap a price. It has been pointed out that making Everburning Torches is cheaper then getting Continual Flames hired out and cast.
==Aelryinth
Or summoned celestials? heh.
Seriously, it IS weird pricing.
==Aelryinth
As a lvl12 samurai I still pull my weight real well, but I use the resolve ability a ton to roll my will saves twice. I can see a fighter doing better in combat except his saves are poor hold him back (not necessarily the value but in only rolling once, no evasion, stalwart, or immunities).
I'm saying this to point out better feats (we do atleaset have some decent ones to choose) wont matter if we are unable to participate. More importantly it might not be fun.
Edit: also I think the only two good fighter feats are stand still and pin down.
Stand still isn’t a fighter feat, but an interesting post regardless. I too think the samurai looks more appealing, but I guess it’s a matter of taste.
I think the problem with the fighter isn’t bad will saves or two skills per level. The problem is options and lack of cool class abilities that grants you options and add color to the class character.
From the quote by SKR in one of my posts above:
“You're allowed to make choices that suit the story of your character, even if those choices mean you're not the best at damage or healing or Diplomacy”
With two skills per level and limited set of class skills, no spells, no unique abilities that add color to the class, no ‘fighter powers or fighter talents’, how does the fighter mechanically let you “make choices that suit the story of your character”?
The simple answer must be feats. Feats offer you options. It is true that attributes, skills, magic items, etc. also add color to your character, but feats are the fighters main feature in Pathfinder just as it was in 3.0 and 3.5.
It’s interesting that one of the things that makes rage powers more useful than rogue talents are the resource management mechanics of the Barbarian that apparently lets rage powers be more powerful than rogue talents, but that also lets rage powers resemble spells, or at least magic.
A full BAB class that does have spells and is loaded with magic abilities and options is the Paladin.
Let’s compare the option of the fighter vs. the options of the paladin.
I’m not going the focus on power, but on options.
For the purpose of this exercise “Fighter feats” refer to ‘feat the fighter can pick, but not the Paladin’ and “Paladin feats” will refer to ‘feats the Paladin can take, but not the fighter’.
I will only look at the core book line: CRB, APG, UC and UM. ARG will not be used since it is a book on races, not classes. I also think ARG is more of a GM book than a player’s book.
While not a full caster, the Paladin is a spell caster and spells is a class feature.
Before the APG Meta magic feats wasn’t a hot choice for the Paladin and quicken spell couldn’t be use at all except when using rods.
The APG with Magical Lineage trait and the Spell Perfection feat changed all that.
I have listed all Paladin spells as well. There might be one or two errors, if so, please let me know.
Also although there are a lot of meta magic feats I will only list the ones I find useful.
Now let’s take a 4th level Paladin vs a 4th level fighter with an equal str score. A fighter without weapon focus and weapon specialization will hit just as hard as a paladin except when the Paladin uses her Smite evil.
Additionally the Paladin will have Lay on Hands, channeling, mercy, spells and immunity to fear, immunities and charisma to all saves and good will saves, etc. Level 5 she gets a mount the fighter can’t match and wit int 13 she can pick Unsanctioned Knowledge that grants he even more cool options. Spells like feather step, see invisibility and divine power are all awesome and Magical Knack increase her caster level.
Now, LoH means the Paladin can have a lower con score and Smite Evil also grants charisma bonus to AC so less con than the fighter is fine. The Paladin can even sleep in heavy armor. She just use LoH in the morning and no fatigue. Or cast lesser restoration.
Unless the fighter picks weapon focus and weapon specialization she will be worse at fighting than the Paladin and without iron will her will saves will be a problem.
15 PB and two traits:
Fighter: str 17, dex 12, con 14 , int 13, wis 12, char 10
Paladin: Str 17, dex 10, con 12, int 13, wis 10, char 14.
Let’s say the fighter don’t pick weapon focus and weapon specialization. Surely the fighter will have more cool options than the Paladin?
Let’s have a look. There should be more fighter feats that Paladin feats, yes?
Surely there must be vastly more fighter feats the Paladin feats since, especially since the Paladin also get spells at level 4. The Paladin has actually been able to use wands since level 1, but we trust the fighter gets a lot of cool options.
Fighter feats:
1. Critical Mastery
2. Disruptive
3. Spellbreaker
4. Greater Shield Focus
5. Greater Weapon Focus
6. Penetrating Strike
7. Greater Penetrating Strike
8. Weapon Specialization
9. Greater Weapon Specialization
Paladin Feats
General feats
1. Alignment Channel
2. Channel Smite
3. Combat Casting
4. Elemental Channel
5. Eschew Materials
6. Extra Channel
7. Extra Lay On Hands
8. Extra Mercy
9. Improved Channel
10. Selective Channeling
11. Turn Undead
Feats that Paladin can take but are useless:
Spell Focus
Greater Spell Focus
Spell Penetration
Greater Spell Penetration
Improved Counterspell
Item creation feats (6)
12. Brew Potion
13. Craft Rod
14. Craft Staff
15. Craft Wand
16. Forge Ring
17. Scribe Scroll
Metamagic Feats (4)
18. Extend Spell
19. Quicken Spell
20. Silent Spell
21. Still Spell
Paladin spells
1st-Level Paladin Spells
1. Bless
2. Bless Water
3. Bless Weapon
4. Create Water
5. Cure Light Wounds
6. Detect Poison
7. Detect Undead
8. Divine Favor
9. Endure Elements
10. Magic Weapon
11. Protection from Chaos
12. Protection from Evil
13. Read Magic
14. Resistance:
15. Restoration, Lesser
16. Virtue
2nd-Level Paladin Spells
17. Bull’s Strength
18. Delay Poison
19. Eagle’s Splendor
20. Owl’s Wisdom.
21. Remove Paralysis
22. Resist Energy
23. Shield OtherF
24. Undetectable Alignment
25. Zone of Truth
3rd-Level Paladin Spells
26. Cure Moderate Wounds
27. Daylight
28. Discern Lies
29. Dispel Magic
30. Heal Mount.
31. Magic Circle against Chaos
32. Magic Circle against Evil
33. Magic Weapon, Greater
34. Prayer
35. Remove Blindness/Deafness
36. Remove Curse
4th-Level Paladin Spells
37. Break Enchantment
38. Cure Serious Wounds
39. Death Ward
40. Dispel Chaos.
41. Dispel Evil.
42. Holy Sword
43. Mark of Justice
44. Neutralize Poison
45. RestorationM
Fighter feats:
1. Disrupting Shot
2. Point-Blank Master
3. Ray Shield
4. Shield Specialization
5. Greater Shield Specialization
Paladin Feats:
1. Improved Share Spells
2. Preferred Spell
Paladin spells
1st-Level Paladin Spells
1. Challenge Evil
2. Ghostbane Dirge
3. Grace
4. Hero's Defiance
5. Honeyed Tongue
6. Knight's Calling
7. Rally Point
8. Veil of Positive Energy
2nd-Level Paladin Spells
9. Aura of Greater Courage
10. Bestow Grace
11. Blessing of Courage and Life
12. Corruption Resistance
13. Fire of Entanglement
14. Instant Armor
15. Light Lance
16. Paladin's Sacrifice
17. Righteous Vigor.
18. Sacred BondF
19. Saddle Surge.
20. Wake of Light
21. Weapon of Awe
3rd-Level Paladin Spells
22. Divine Transfer
23. Fire of Judgment
24. Ghostbane Dirge, Mass
25. Holy Whisper
26. Marks of Forbiddance
27. Sanctify Armor
28. Wrathful Mantle
4th-Level Paladin Spells
29. Blaze of Glory
30. Fire of Vengeance
31. Forced Repentance
32. King’s Castle
33. Oath of Peace
34. Resounding Blow
35. Sacrificial Oath
36. Stay the Hand
Fighter feats = 0
Paladin feats:
1. Channeled Shield Wall
2. Divine Interference
3. Dragonbane Aura
4. Eldritch Heritage
5. Improved Eldritch Heritage
6. Greater Eldritch Heritage
7. Eyes of Judgment
8. Fearless Aura
9. Greater Mercy
10. Ultimate Mercy
11. Life Lure
12. Painful Anchor - Anchoring aura class feature
13. Pure Faith
14. Quick Channel
15. Radiant Charge
16. Reward of Grace
17. Reward of Life
18. Ultimate Resolve
19. Uncanny Concentration
20. Unsanctioned Detection
21. Unsanctioned Knowledge
22. Versatile Channeler
23. Warrior Priest
24. Word of Healing
Paladin spells
1st-Level Paladin Spells
1. Diagnose Disease
2. Horn of Pursuit
3. Know the Enemy
4. Sanctify Corpse
5. Wartrain Mount
6. Word of Resolve
2nd-Level Paladin Spells
7. Arrow of Law
8. Holy Shield
9. Vestment of the Champion
3rd-Level Paladin Spells
10. Archon’s Aura
11. Blade of Bright Victory
12. Blessing of the Mole
4th-Level Paladin Spells
13. Bestow Grace of the Champion
14. Raise Animal Companion
15. Reprobation
16. Symbol of Healing
Fighter feats
1. Pin Down
2. Rebounding Leap (Archetype feats)
3. Teleport Tactician
Paladin feats
1. Adept Champion
2. Channeled Revival
3. Channeling Scourge
4. Contingent Channeling
5. Crusader’s Fist
6. Crusader’s Flurry
7. Destructive Dispel
8. Greater Channel Smite
9. Guided Hand
Paladin spells
1st-Level Paladin Spells
1. Bowstaff
2. Compel Hostility
3. Liberating Command
4. Litany of Sloth
5. Longshot
6. Sun Metal
7. Tactical Acumen
2nd-Level Paladin Spells
8. Bestow Weapon Proficiency
9. Divine Arrow
10. Effortless Armor
11. Endure Elements, Communal
12. Litany of Defense
13. Litany of Eloquence
14. Litany of Entanglement
15. Litany of Righteousness
16. Litany of Warding
17. Magic Siege Engine
18. Protection from Chaos, Communal
19. Protection from Evil, Communal
20. Protection from Good, Communa
21. Protection from Law, Communal
3rd-Level Paladin Spells
22. Burst of Speed
23. Daybreak Arrow
24. Deadly Juggernaut
25. Delay Poison, Communal
26. Litany of Escape
27. Litany of Sight
28. Resist Energy, Communal
4th-Level Paladin Spells
29. Litany of Thunder
30. Litany of Vengeance
31. Magic Siege Engine, Greater
edit:
Fighter feats: 17
Paladin feats: 56
Paladin spells: 128 + any spells granted by Unsanctioned Knowledg
So even if the fighter don’t pick the “must have” feats what are his options? Improved trip?
I'd to like to point out that throwing more numbers at the fighter, especialy if its in combat related, won't help them much.
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Fighters don't need unique feats.
Just have the feats everyone else can take auto-scale when taken by fighters. Solves that problem really fast.
==Aelryinth
Fighters don't need unique feats.
Just have the feats everyone else can take auto-scale when taken by fighters. Solves that problem really fast.
==Aelryinth
So every feat needs to have a sub-section that says "Special: If fighter add moar numbers"?
So every feat needs to have a sub-section that says "Special: If fighter add moar numbers"?Fighters don't need unique feats.
Just have the feats everyone else can take auto-scale when taken by fighters. Solves that problem really fast.
==Aelryinth
I see no problem with that.
Imo twf and vital strike could easily be scaling feats for everyone and it might help out the other classes who already nab them. After they grab iron will and weapon focus what are they going to grab?
After they grab iron will and weapon focus what are they going to grab?extra traits, skill feats, 2nd combat style feats, there is a lot of options.
Erm... You just put in more numbers? What if they just spend it on more combat feats? The fighter is already good at fighting. Do we just hope people have the system mastery to put it into other things?
if a player use the extra feat in more combat feat them it is his choise, I do not see the problem with it.
The point is how to fix fighters. Thats a lot of additional text and errata for a fix, and the feats being parts of long chains and not scaling is a problem for more than just fighter. The fighter gets the blunt of it becuase he's a class based around feats. He's okay at fighting, he doesn't need to get better at it.
He needs utility and he needs more options. This is not that. Consolidating the feats helps him change on the go, but it doesn't help him with utility or options beyond hitting things. At best it gives him the option to trip and grapple along with hitting things with a stick if you shrank those feats, but I'm not sure if thats what he needs. We've already seen many builds about spreading feats around to get better at general things, but it doesn't make him that much if at all better at a particular thing and the other class can still do better than him and do more.
If you have the choise to make a more well rounded character or to have more combat options and you choose the sencond then you can not later complain about it.
I also think that fighter do good enough in combat. So far the only the only change that I really want is a couple of more skill points per level, fighter do not need to better than other out of combat the calss just need to be good enough, IMHO.
Yeah, thats sort of what I was getting at. I don't think scaling feats gives them what they need. Gives them the option to put more feats into non combat, but only if they have some wierd level of system mastery that lets them know they should put things into things other than combat. Even then I don't find that particularly exciting, and you might end up with wierd balance issues.
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Here is the ideal fix to Fighters,IMO:
Warning: It might be a bit of a rant:
Universal Changes:
- Make feats scale with level/BAB. This way every martial gets a fair boost, Paladins and Barbarians will be able to master 2~3 fighting styles, but Fighter will be able to do the same to 4~6 of them! They are motherf*****g Fighters!
- Remove pointless prerequisites (Int 13 for Combat Expertise; Combat Expertise for Improved Trip)
- Allow characters to move and make more than 1 attack, it doesn't have to be a full attack, but it shouldn't be much worse either.
- Reduce/remove ACP. There is no point in punishing a character for using a item that he's basically forced to use! That's like punishing a Wizard for using a grimoire! Or punishing a Cleric for using a holy symbol!
- Make combat maneuvers more useful at higher levels.
- Make Combat Maneuvers and Unarmed Strikes no longer provoke AoO (how is it that a punch provokes, a but a punch using a gauntlet does not? Besides, Unarmed Strikes already suffer the serious drawback of not threatening adjacent squares)
- Make 4 skill points/level the bare minimum to everyone who isn't an Int-based full-caster.
- Make skills more useful at higher levels.
Fighter specific:
- Give them some way to consistently resist magical effects! It's doesn't matter how high my AC and DPR are if I can be easily mind-controlled or petrified by a Wizard 4 levels lower than me.
- Instead of Fighter-only feats, make Combat feats that everyone can take, but that give Fighters a secondary benefit. e.g.: my version of Weapon Focus: you get a +1 for every +7 BAB (min. 1; max of +3 at BAB 14), you add twice that bonus to damage rolls made with that weapon if it belongs to an weapon group for which you have the Weapon Training class feature! There, now you have 1 scaling feat instead of a 4-feat long Feat Chain!
- Pounce at 10~12th level. Full-attack as a standard action at 20th level.
Things that I'd like to see but will never happen:
- Remove false options from the game. If they are so good that 90% of every build has it and/or it already has a fair penalty attached, might as well make it a universal option that can be used at any time instead of a feat. (e.g.:Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Bullseye Shot, Deadly Aim, etc). If they are so terrible that basically nobody ever takes it (Sure Grasp, just remove it from the game, this saves space that could be used to give us real options!
- Give magic gear more magic and less math. Getting the ability to fly or become invisible is cool! Getting an obligatory +5 bonus that I absolutely must have to stay useful is not.
What's the difference between everyone getting an innate +5 to AC and everyone buying a Ring of Protection +5? One makes you feel like you're awesome at fighting, the other makes you feel like you're awesome at shopping. Oh, and you effectively have 1 less item slot.
- Stop magic from being able to do every thing imaginable! Especially since it does it better, faster and cheaper most of the time! Magic should supplement skills, not make them completely irrelevant!
Things that would make me even happier:
- Give me cookies.
Things that would make me even happier:
- Give me cookies.
I liked what I was reading until I reached this. You see, I prefer cheesecake, but I'm sure we can compromise.
I'd also like to complain about magic. I like magic. I think magic items should do more interesting things and be less of an endless treadmill of +1's you need to survive. Also still not sure about scaling feats, but I haven't experimented much with them.
How about these changes to the fighter?
Skill points per level: 4 + Int modifier
Martial Mastery (Ex): At 2nd level, a fighter gains a +1 bonus to his Base Attack Bonus. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels beyond 2nd. This bonus allows a fighter to gain “iterative attacks” and to qualify for certain feats sooner than other characters. (This would replace the Bravery class feature).
Fighter Exploits: Any time a fighter would gain a bonus combat feat (level 1, 2, 4, 6, etc.), a fighter may instead gain a fighter exploit. Unless otherwise noted, a fighter cannot select an individual exploit more than once.
Battle Sense (Ex): You have a sixth sense when it comes to combat and are able to react to attacks from all sides. Reduce the flanking bonus to attack rolls gained by enemies by 1. This exploit may be selected twice. A fighter with this exploit is still considered to be “flanked” if the normal conditions for such are met.
Bravery (Ex): Lesser men would wet themselves at the mere thought of the things you've lived through and seen. Gain a bonus to saves against fear effects equal to your fighter level.
Fighter Critical (Ex): Your attacks with certain weapons are quite deadly. A fighter must be at least 6th level before selecting this exploit. Select one group of weapons (as noted under the fighter's Weapon Training class feature). When using a weapon from the selected group, your threat range is doubled. A fighter may select this exploit more than once, choosing a different weapon group each time. The effect of this exploit does not stack with itself; if a weapon falls into multiple groups, it only gains this bonus once. This effect doesn't stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon. At 12th level, anytime a fighter rolls a natural 20 for an attack roll made with a weapon to which this exploit applies, he automatically confirms the critical threat. A fighter with this exploit is considered to have the Improved Critical feat with any weapon that falls into the chosen weapon group for the purpose of meeting feat prerequisites.
Fighter Focus (Ex): Select one group of weapons (as noted under the fighter's Weapon Training class feature). You gain a +1 bonus on attack rolls made with weapons from this group. At 8th level, the bonus from this exploit is doubled to +2. A fighter may select this exploit more than once, choosing a different weapon group each time. The effect of this exploit doee not stack with itself; if a weapon falls into multiple groups, it only gains this bonus once. A fighter with this exploit is considered to have the Weapon Focus feat with any weapon that falls into the chosen weapon group for the purpose of meeting feat prerequisites. At 8th level he is considered to have the Greater Weapon Focus feat.
Fighter Specialization (Ex): A fighter must be at least 4th level and have the Fighter Focus exploit before selecting this exploit. Select one group of weapons for which you have already selected the Fighter Focus exploit. You gain a +2 bonus on damage rolls made with weapons from this group. At 12th level, this bonus doubles to +4. A fighter may select this exploit more than once, choosing a different weapon group for which he has already selected the Fighter Focus exploit each time. The effect of this exploit does not stack with itself; if a weapon falls into multiple groups, it only gains this bonus once. A fighter with this exploit is considered to have the Weapon Specialization feat with any weapon that falls into the chosen weapon group for the purpose of meeting feat prerequisites. At 12th level he is considered to have the Greater Weapon Specialization feat.
Great Fortitude: A fighter who selects this exploit gains the Great Fortitude feat as a bonus feat.
Hard Body (Ex): You know how to take a hit and shrug off damage. You gain DR 1/–. A fighter may select this exploit up to three times. This effect stacks with itself as well as the Armor Mastery fighter class feature.
Harrying Opponent (Ex): You are adept at harassing enemies near you. Your enemies treat each square you threaten as difficult terrain.
Heavy Hitter (Ex): A fighter must be 6th level before selecting this exploit. Once per round, on his turn, when a fighter makes an attack, he may choose to have that attack deal additional damage. Roll the weapon's damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together before adding bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as flaming), precision based damage, and other damage bonuses. These extra weapon damage dice are not multiplied on a critical hit, but are added to the total. At 10th level, roll the weapon's damage dice for the attack three times; at 14th level, roll the weapon's damage dice for the attack four times; 18th level, roll the weapon's damage dice for the attack five times.
Hero's Luck: You're luckier than the average bear. You gain the Diehard feat as a bonus feat, even if you do not meet the prerequisites, as well as a +1 luck bonus to all saving throws. At 8th level, this bonus to saving throws increases to +2; at 16th level, it increases again to +3.
Improved Great Fortitude: A fighter must have the Great Fortitude feat before selecting this exploit. A fighter who selects this exploit gains the Improved Great Fortitude feat as a bonus feat.
Improved Iron Will: A fighter must have the Iron Will feat before selecting this exploit. A fighter who selects this exploit gains the Improved Iron Will as a bonus feat.
Improved Lightning Reflexes: A fighter must have the Lightning Reflexes feat before selecting this exploit. A fighter who selects this gains the Improved Lightning Reflexes as a bonus feat.
Intuitive Strike (Ex): You know just where to stick the pointy end to make it really hurt. You may add your Intelligence bonus (as precision damage) to weapon damage rolls while flanking an enemy or when an enemy would be denied his Dexterity bonus to AC. Creatures immune to critical hits are immune to this damage.
Iron Will: A fighter who selects this exploit gains the Iron Will feat as a bonus feat.
Lightning Reflexes: A fighter who selects this exploit gains the Lightning Reflexes feat as a bonus feat.
Living Wall (Ex): Nothing gets past you without your say so; your companions (and enemies) know you as “Brick.” A fighter must have the Harrying Opponent exploit before selecting this exploit. Whenever an enemy attempts to move out of or through your threatened area, you may take an immediate action to perform a combat maneuver against him. If you succeed, your enemy immediately stops moving and cannot move for the rest of his turn. The enemy may still take the rest of his action(s) but may not move.
Maneuver Specialization (Ex): A fighter with this exploit gains a +4 bonus to his CMB, CMD, and AC against Attacks of Opportunity provoked by initiating a combat maneuver. At 10th level, this bonus doubles to +8.
Studious: Gain an additional skill point with each fighter level. A fighter may select this exploit multiple times; its effect is retroactive.
Weapon/Armor Training/Mastery would remain unchanged.
I have no idea if these are balanced or not.
I don't see why the fighter has to do much outside of combat. All his utility comes from a high strength score.
Just picture what actual Fighters/Martial-Artist/Knights/Soldiers did outside of combat that didn't relate to a secondary profession. Dig trenches? Construct siege weapons? Build Fortifications? Make Battle plans? Practice Techniques?
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I'll preface this by saying that I've played, and enjoyed, many Fighters in my gaming years.
That said, I agree that Fighters need some love if they're to feel as "complete" as other comparable classes, but where I stand is that it's not the Fighter Class's fault: The entire system needs a makeover (Pathfinder 2.0 is far away if it ever happens, but we really could use it now.)
Example 1: Martial Mastery needs to be a built-in feature of the Fighter Class (and earlier than level 16 - holy hell Paizo!).
"Weapon Groups" mean less than nothing when the "Bonus Combat Feats" you take require you to specialize in one specific weapon.
Example 2: Add 1-3 "Exotic Weapon Proficienc(y/ies)" to the beginning Fighter's repertoire.
Even if they go unused by the character, the "concept" should fit that a Fighter has more weapon training than a non-Fighter.
Example 3: Feats need redoing as badly as the spell lists do!
Simply put, Feats are the Fighter's bread-and-butter, and lots of the time you feel like, "Damn, this feat really blows but I need it to get the feat I really want next level."
Part of this problem is there are a LOT of bad feat options (Combat Expertise being the stereotype of this problem). Another part of this problem is that there are a LOT of Improved/Greater feat options that should never have been made their own feats, but instead should just be rolled into the original feat (ie: Two-Weapon Fighting should grant you a 2nd additional offhand attack at a +11 BAB, and a 3rd additional offhand attack at a +16 BAB. Weapon Focus should have a footnote that says the bonus to attack rolls is increased by an additional +1 for Fighters of 8th level or higher. Etc ad infinitum.)
Example 4: Everyone needs 2 more skill points per level.
Simply put, skills are/can be more important than many people make them out to be, and there are a LOT of them to choose from (even after Pathfinder trimmed them down from 3.X). "2+Int" is never really enough, especially for classes that can't afford to worry about increasing their Intelligence score (ie: Clerics, Fighters, Paladins, Sorcerers, Summoners, etc. Even classes with 4+Int that lack an incentive to increase Intelligence, such as Barbarians, Cavaliers, Monks, etc, can feel like there just aren't enough skill points to go around.)
Another reason that Fighters feel this particularly harshly is because their Class Skill list is hardly impressive. No Fighter type would want Acrobatics, or Bluff (feinting is a thing after all...), or Know: Geography/History/Local/Nobility (soldiers, royal guards, tacticians, etc), or Slight of Hand (for always keeping at least one weapon handy)? (I won't touch Perception, since every class could make an argument for it.)
As someone near the beginning of this thread pointed out, not every Rogue type is going to use every skill available to them, but they're at least available for the Rogue types that will. Fighters simply can't make the same claim, and that's a shame.
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More numbers are basically what the fighter class is.
You don't need to improve a fighter's combat numbers. But there are feats that expand options, but they are ridiculously less effective then simply taking feats that do add numbers.
Does taking the whole weapon spec tree down to one feat instead of 4 for a fighter add to a fighter's damage? No, it lets him spend feats on other things.
Does having Iron Will scale with a fighter's bravery numbers improve a fighter's offense? No, his DPR stays the same...but his defense improves.
Does having Combat Reflexes improve with his Armor Training add to his Offense? Maybe...but the cool thing is, he'll have more AoO's then anyone.
Does taking Dodge and have it turn his ARmor Training Dex bonus into a flat Dodge bonus improve his DPR? no, but he'll always get the benefit of his class AC bonus even if his Dex isn't 20.
Condensing feat chains down to one feat for fighters is the fighter 'super-power'. Other classes take feats that are equal to 1/2 of a class feature. Every level, the fighter gets to take feats that are full CLASS FEATURES.
That's awesome.
The biggest thing is it forces the re-writing of so many useless feat chains that fighters now never have to take.
==Aelryinth