OK, Ryn, you win, I concede. You made your case. Paladins are better than fighters.Now let's talk about Rangers!
Maybe I'll add another project to the pile of random ones tomorrow. I think I've done all I can on Freeform Class Selection for the nonce and I'm just not feeling the Liberator any more, so on my off day lessee if I can whip up a decent "Fighter: Remastered" concept.
Which I'll probably forget about in a week but hey.
Ranger is my favorite class to play btw
Im off, thanks for the debat folks. You win. I'm gonna now give Paladins a chance over fighters.
Neutral soldiers tend to get article 15'd out in the real world. Lawful soldeiers are required to...what does the promotion warrant state..."...obey ALL lawful orders..." (emphasis added) hardly sounds neutral.
There's nothing in the Neutral alignment that says they can't follow orders. They couldn't give a f@&$ about following orders just because, but they'll do it out of professional pride in their work. They volunteered after all, in this day and age. Or just for the paycheck. Or fear of reprisal.
Im off, thanks for the debat folks. You win.
But it's no fun if I'm declared winner! D=
Neutral soldiers tend to get article 15'd out in the real world. Lawful soldeiers are required to...what does the promotion warrant state..."...obey ALL lawful orders..." (emphasis added) hardly sounds neutral.
Many soldiers only follow their orders because either A) they know that disorganization leads to death, or B) because they face punishment. Someone who follows an order because they face punishment is not exactly going to become lawful anytime in the near future.
That doesn't stop them from having loyalty though. Nor does it stop them from participating in the world. The vast majority of people in the world by the 3.x expectancy (which PF is derived from) are assumed Neutral. You must make conscious choices to be aligned. Conscious choices to be lawful or chaotic or good or evil. If you're acting lawful only because it's convenient to do so at the moment then welcome to Neutralia baby. :P
Im off, thanks for the debat folks. You win.
Hey no worries man. Thank you for your time. Also, don't look at it like winning or losing. I don't. It's a quest for truth and we are helping one another!
Ranger is my favorite class to play btw
It's a damn good class and probably the best class to learn to play the game with (it's literally got some of everything in the game. You begin as a very competent martial, lots of skills to dabble in the skill system of the game, then after you've got basic fighting / skills down over levels 1-3, you then get some spells and an animal companion to learn how the magic system works and practice having a minion and/or mount). Like the Paladin and Barbarian it's a very well balanced class (their spells are useful to the whole party as well).
About soldiers and discipline; there are two types of orders if you will, those in garrison and those in combat.
Soldiers in the end do not fight for their paycheck, out of fear, or necessarily for stubborn pride, (except in the USMC where the legacy is quite heavy) in the end they fight for the soldier in the hole with them. When the fear takes over, the training kicks in, instinctively. Following orders saves lives, and they know it, especially in battle. That's why the U.S. military tends to not break and run, even under the worst of conditions. There are very few modern examples, and they were all fighting withdrawals...think opening salvo of the Battle-of-the-Bulge, or the encirclement at the Chosen Reservoir in Korea.
Soldiers just following orders will be Lawful-Good (usually in our case when soldiers believe in a good cause), Lawful Neutral (UN Peacekeeping missions or soldiers just following orders for a good casue) Lawful-Evil (Nazi Germany).
Now some will make a moral equivalency argument, they tend to sound like "one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter", but those arguments are quite easily dismissed.
I still have trouble putting a barbarian only class melee type in a martial army wily-nily without a convincing back-story.
Feng Gao is a Monk. He grew up in a monastery, studying the martial arts and training to become a master of himself. Along the way, he was taught skill in a great many weapons, how to take care of himself in the wilderness, how to move faster than normal men, and how to focus his mind, body, and soul on combat.
When the need arises, Feng Gao can focus himself, dedicating himself to the task of defeating whatever foe has presented itself to him. In so doing, his Strength and Toughness soar (+4), as does his mental resilience (+2 will), but it leaves him open for counter-attack (-2 AC)
His character class is Barbarian, but Feng Gao is a Monk by profession/upbringing.
Well written back-story Kyrt.
You must remember most of them would probably be untrained Peasant Levies.
I see a Barbarian as being more of a shock trooper...
Note that 'fight for the guy next to you' is not an example of Lawful discipline, it's an example of Pack Mentality.
You know, like wolves have. It's instinct and ingrained and thoroughly natural and Neutral. Dogs and monkeys have it in spades. So do we.
Lawful is a world view. It's that you think the world should be organized, and you adhere to those beliefs. laws are great and good things, not a convenience to adhere to because you might get fined, and okay to ignore if you can get away with it.
A soldier who loves the life of being a soldier is probably Lawful...the regimen, the highly organized life, the comfort of knowing your exact place and job, the challenge of navigating the system to your advantage, loving the way thousands of souls can pull together and get something accomplished under proper direction, surrounding yourself with other people who share your worldview, being part of long line and legacy and striving to uphold it...these are Lawful traits.
Someone who thinks of soldiering as a job is probably not Lawful, he's just disciplined. outside the demands of his job, he could very well 'unwind' and not be the same type of person.
==Aelryinth
yeah, 3 people.So all those posts and no one has yet made an argument convicing enough to change minds, let alone to convincing enough to get Paizo to make a change? Perhaps the problem either doesn't exist, is not as bad as you think, or perhaps the fighter when used properly, is just fine as is.Or perhaps the 3 people who don't agree with the other 5 dozen just don't feel like being persuaded.
I more or less get the feeling it is the other way round. At least on the last few pages. But that might be as subjective as his feeling.
Someone who thinks of soldiering as a job is probably not Lawful, he's just disciplined. outside the demands of his job, he could very well 'unwind' and not be the same type of person.
Have you been around a lot of military (esp. enlistees) on "shore leave"? "Lawful" doesn't immediately come to mind.
EDIT: TOZ is a notable exception.
In my experience barbarians are theones who nees more and more healing.A Paladin can fight and heal themselves.
Usually the Fighter ends up needing the most healing out of the Party.
You really haven't dealt with a lot of Trained Soldiers have you?
I don't see how. Between DR, d12 HD and Con boost, I think they take longer to actually need healing. You don't have to heal'em to 100% all the time.
Fighters have better AC, so I guess it's balanced there.
Rangers may need more healing than both, now that I think about it.
I think the big difference is that Barbarian players tend to be more reckless, but that's nothing to do with mechanics.
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Someone who thinks of soldiering as a job is probably not Lawful, he's just disciplined. outside the demands of his job, he could very well 'unwind' and not be the same type of person.Have you been around a lot of military (esp. enlistees) on "shore leave"? "Lawful" doesn't immediately come to mind.
EDIT: TOZ is a notable exception.
Hey, I'm no paladin. True Neutral all the way!
And seeing that they haven't chaptered me in 12 years active service...
I don't see how. Between DR, d12 HD and Con boost, I think they take longer to actually need healing. You don't have to heal'em to 100% all the time.
Fighters have better AC, so I guess it's balanced there.
Rangers may need more healing than both, now that I think about it.
I think the big difference is that Barbarian players tend to be more reckless, but that's nothing to do with mechanics.
Not every barbarian out there have the beast totem rage powers, the diference in AC can be huge. Against single BBEG thereis not much difrence, the BBEG tend to have a high attack so he can hit low or high AC, but against a lot of minions the diference can be high. In the red hand of doom example I post before, 8 hobgoblin archers did 12 damage to the 22 AC paladin butdid 40 damage to the raging barbarian.
Rangers get hitter more than fighter but have evasion and healing spells to compensate.
But every Barbarian has DR. Invulnerable Ragers have it since 2nd level. Also, the boost to saves can really help them avoid nasty magical effects, even without Supertition.
Rangers do have healing spells, but they very rarely prepare them, so they need to either spend the Cleric's spells or resources such as wands and potions. That said, they compensate for that in other areas, and good Reflex saves is really good to avoid AoE damage.
I'm not sure how much is the AC difference between Fighters, Paladins, Rangers and Barbarians at mid and high levels, though.
Note that 'fight for the guy next to you' is not an example of Lawful discipline, it's an example of Pack Mentality.
You know, like wolves have. It's instinct and ingrained and thoroughly natural and Neutral. Dogs and monkeys have it in spades. So do we.
Lawful is a world view. It's that you think the world should be organized, and you adhere to those beliefs. laws are great and good things, not a convenience to adhere to because you might get fined, and okay to ignore if you can get away with it.
A soldier who loves the life of being a soldier is probably Lawful...the regimen, the highly organized life, the comfort of knowing your exact place and job, the challenge of navigating the system to your advantage, loving the way thousands of souls can pull together and get something accomplished under proper direction, surrounding yourself with other people who share your worldview, being part of long line and legacy and striving to uphold it...these are Lawful traits.
Someone who thinks of soldiering as a job is probably not Lawful, he's just disciplined. outside the demands of his job, he could very well 'unwind' and not be the same type of person.
==Aelryinth
If you go back further in the discussion I was talking about professional soldiers, not the rank and file. But, your thoughts on survival instinct as a neutral trait make perfect sense.
"Neutral: A neutral character does what seems to be a good idea"
ie breaking and running for survival.
"Lawful Neutral: A lawful neutral character acts as law, tradition, or a personal code of honor directs her"
ie standing your ground side-by-side your brother's in arms, because your lawful orders, military tradition, and personal code of honor dictate so.
Thus, professional armies don't break ranks and run. (forward or back) I don't think a horde of barbarians would hold their positions for very long, either way.
Most professional soldier would be Lawful Neutral IMHO. The peasant masses conscripted for war are not professional soldiers. (there are such things as unlawful orders, the Nuremberg Trials explored that at great length.)
I would prefer the minimum skill points for all classes to be 4+Int, to allow more character development.
I would like Fighter archetypes better if they didn't replace Armor Training and Weapon Training. These are unique to the Fighter class, and help separate them from other martial classes.
Someone who thinks of soldiering as a job is probably not Lawful, he's just disciplined. outside the demands of his job, he could very well 'unwind' and not be the same type of person.Have you been around a lot of military (esp. enlistees) on "shore leave"? "Lawful" doesn't immediately come to mind.
EDIT: TOZ is a notable exception.Hey, I'm no paladin. True Neutral all the way!
And seeing that they haven't chaptered me in 12 years active service...
You said "chaptered", my guess is you are in the Army.
If you are obeying your lawful orders as required (as evidenced by 12 years of honorable service), I'd posit that you are Lawful Neutral.
The barbarian in the example did have DR/1-, he was not invulnerable rager (Uncanny dodge help him to avoid several sneak attacks in other fight so he can not complain about it).
And not everyone have superstition. It seems like all the options for barbarian are an illusion since superstition+best totems + invulnerable rager is the only really great combo for barbarians.I do not know about rangers, the ranger in that campaing had a solid AC and a wand of cure light wounds.
I don't think it's the only good combo, but it's probably the best. Even without Superstition, Barbarians still get a decent bonus to saves against magic. Archer Barbarians became really good with the Adaptive enhancement to longbows (specially if coupled with the Urban Barbarian archetype).
Against enemies with lots of natural attacks (like dragons, and their 6 attacks at full BAB or full BAB-2 -.-'... freaking overgrown lizards...), I think DR might be more valuable than AC, unless that AC is really, really high. To be fair, Pounce and Spell Sunder are not just powerful, but really fun too. They give your character something really useful and unique.
At higher levels, where attack bonuses are considerably higher than AC, DR is probably better too.
Of course, YMMV. It all depends on what kind of enemies you're facing.
A Ranger's AC is about the same as the Barbarian's +2, when the Barbarian is Raging, or slightly lower if said Barbarian has Beast Totem.
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I'm a law-abiding citizen! Unlike a lot of the people I knew in my home town, I've never been arrested, much less convicted. Am I therefore lawful neutral?
Of course, I have scant regard for tradition for its own sake, and value individual liberty over group cohesiveness (chaotic now?) except when the latter is more efficient for a given function (like combat). Does that make me neutral?
At home and at work, I'm highly self-disciplined. Am I back to lawful?
On the weekend, sometimes I'll laze about and drink coffee for several hours, just to be doing it. Am I back to chaotic?
The D&D alignment system is quick shorthand for "do the monsters help, parlay cautiously, or just loot and pillage?" It doesn't apply to real people in real life, in any way, shape, or form.
I wonder what the game would be like if only wizards got two skill ranks per level, and everyone else got at least four?
I wonder what the game would be like if only wizards got two skill ranks per level, and everyone else got at least four?
I think it'd be better balanced and more fun.
IMO, the problem is not so much that 2+Int is less than 4+Int, but that 2+Int are so few skill points. Put one of those in Perception, and now you have a single skill to use.
Witches could only get 2+Int too, but I wouldn't mind if they and Wizards got 4+Int if that's what it took to give Fighters and Paladins (and even Clerics and Sorcerers) more skill points.
Nah, Kirth, that's basically the definition of Neutrality..not committing to extremes.
I'm sure you know people who are Lawful...all the time, every time. Solid, dependable, disciplined...and probably rather boring.
You might know Chaotics, but they're kind of hard to find as you go on in life, as the absolute freedom chaotics insist on is harder to find in a real society. Most are just Neutrals with a strong anti-authority streak, not Chaotic.
At high levels, AC's tend to sit within 2-3 pts of one another, because Armor is only one component of AC. Celestial Mail lets any class max out their Dex bonus, so it comes down to armor type...heavy, medium, light, and the spread there is 3 points.
The fighter will probably have a slightly higher AC at low levels, about the same at mid when mithral pops up, and a couple points higher at high.
However, remember that the Barb can get substantial Nat AC and dodge bonuses that the fighter cannot, and can the Ranger get Barkskin early?
IN all honesty, the fighter AC bonus to Dex for armor should just be a flat Dodge bonus to AC, not a raising of Dex limits. all it does at lower levels is save the Fighter the expense of wearing mithral, which the other classes do.
===Aelryinth
Not every barbarian out there have the beast totem rage powers, the diference in AC can be huge. Against single BBEG there could be not much difrence, the BBEG tend to have a high attack so he can hit low or high AC, but against a lot of minions the diference can be high.
So what you're saying is a barbarian that isn't built to be a tank isn't so great at tanking? Well, who'da thunk it, right? I mean, it's not like every strength-based melee martial who's concerned with damage takes Power Attack (oh, wait, why wouldn't they?). Any barbarian who is concerned about their defenses has access to things that supplement their defenses (the beast totem line just happens to supplement both their defense AND offense).
I think this is a bit disingenuous Nicos. Fighter-proponents go on and on about things like Iron Will and Lightning Reflexes, even though their class doesn't give them those things. They talk like every fighter will have them when they are being compared to another class in terms of what their defenses look like. Meanwhile, a barbarian actually has the option to take a defensive ability AS HIS CLASS FEATURE and you suggest it be dismissed because "not all barbarians will take it".
Look, not all barbarians will take it. But barbarians focused on being tanks probably will. Just like not all Fighters will take Shield Focus, but those emphasizing defense probably will. Just like all Paladins won't take Fey Foundling, but those interested in longevity probably will. Just like a Ranger might not take Deadly Aim, but one interested in archery probably will.
And the funny thing? The really funny thing about all this, is it only takes a Barbarian 3 - count them, 3 - Rage powers to get both Beast Totem and Superstition. And Barbarians can trade their own feats for Rage Powers (allowing access to quite a few very quickly). That means that the Barbarian has the option of anywhere between 10 feats and 10 rage powers to 1 feat and 19 rage powers.
With only 3 rage powers you cover most of your defenses and ensure that you are never caught unarmed. Meanwhile, you can do pretty much whatever else you want to do with the other rage powers (and there's a lot to do with them).
A fighter could spend 6 feats and not match the Barbarian. He would need to burn 3 non-Fighter feats to get a +2 bonus to each saving throw (Barbarians begin at +2 with Superstition and reach +7, or +13 if you're human). At 4th level, the Barbarian can pick up Beast Totem and no longer has an AC penalty while Raging. By high levels he's actually +3 AC when raging instead of down AC. So the Fighter would then need Dodge, Shield Focus, and Greater Shield Focus. So for the fighter to exercise his options, he must spend 3 non-class feats and 3 class feats to do what the barbarian does in 2 class features that can be purchased with feats.
I wonder what the game would be like if only wizards got two skill ranks per level, and everyone else got at least four?I think it'd be better balanced and more fun.
IMO, the problem is not so much that 2+Int is less than 4+Int, but that 2+Int are so few skill points. Put one of those in Perception, and now you have a single skill to use.
Witches could only get 2+Int too, but I wouldn't mind if they and Wizards got 4+Int if that's what it took to give Fighters and Paladins (and even Clerics and Sorcerers) more skill points.
Personally I'd not mind if skill points only came in 4, 6, and 8, like BAB comes in 1/2, 3/4, and 1/1.
Personally I'd not mind if skill points only came in 4, 6, and 8, like BAB comes in 1/2, 3/4, and 1/1.I wonder what the game would be like if only wizards got two skill ranks per level, and everyone else got at least four?I think it'd be better balanced and more fun.
IMO, the problem is not so much that 2+Int is less than 4+Int, but that 2+Int are so few skill points. Put one of those in Perception, and now you have a single skill to use.
Witches could only get 2+Int too, but I wouldn't mind if they and Wizards got 4+Int if that's what it took to give Fighters and Paladins (and even Clerics and Sorcerers) more skill points.
Actually, thinking back to it, in SWd20 no PC class had less than 4 skill points per level. The only class that did was the Thug NPC class (their version of the warrior class, essentially).
It always annoys me that people forget that a Paladin can drop things like Divine Favor and Divine Power on themselves, meaning that even against non-evil enemies, they're still capable of fighting it out after spending one standard action.
And that it stacks with smite when the enemies ARE evil.
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It always annoys me that people forget that a Paladin can drop things like Divine Favor and Divine Power on themselves, meaning that even against non-evil enemies, they're still capable of fighting it out after spending one standard action.
And that it stacks with smite when the enemies ARE evil.
Unsanctioned Knowledge is crazy sexy for a Paladin as well. A Paladin having access to Divine Power is pretty sexy (+CL to as temporary HP, up to a +5 luck bonus to hit/damage/CMB, strength checks, +1 attack per round as if hasted, and if you have a +2 CL trait then you hit +6 to hit and damage and Strength checks at 18th level, and it's likely to last entire combats). And then you also can also get several arcane spells as divine spells (no spell-failure %).
Good options are heroism (+2 to attacks, saves, checks, for 10 minutes / level), good hope (like heroism but applies to damage and affects 1 target/level and lasts 1 min/level), phantom steed (because even those with bonded weapons may want a disposable flying superhorse that lasts 1 hour / level), abundant ammunition (oh look, infinite special material arrows). Or cleric/oracles spells like bestow weapon proficiency (uh-oh, the Paladin can wield more weapons than our fighters!), defending bone gives a long lasting damage-absorbing effect against a lot of weapons (including bows, swords, axes, spears, etc). Align weapon means attuning you can bypass ANY aligned DR (chaos, evil, good, and law). Animate dead for those Paladins of Wee Jass out there, or those who think it's really darn cool to lead a legion of undead soldiers against the forces of evil (and it is).
The best part is junk like that stacks too! I mean, divine favor/power are luck bonuses. Heroism is a morale bonus. You can also have a trait that increases your CL by +2 (a good trait for a Paladin since it helps make their buffs last longer and fortify them against dispelling). So if you're 7th level (access to 2nd level spells) you can cast heroism which is active for an hour. That's +2 to attacks, saves, checks (ability & skill). Then during a battle you decide that you need to get your smite on, so during the first round you cast divine favor (+2 to attacks and damage) and then move up to engage. Kind of like a mini-barbarian rage. Also stacks with Inspire Courage from a bard.
So our Paladin nets himself a +4/+2 bonus to attacks during the battle, +2 to all saves, +2 to all ability checks, +2 to all skill checks. That's before using his Weapon Bond (which also stacks), or using Smite Evil (which also stacks). At 5th level our traited Paladin can take Craft Wondrous Items (a darn good option to) to make a nice pearl necklace (and by pearl necklace I mean pearls of power) to get more uses of his low-level spells throughout the day (the cost of a 1st level pearl when you craft it yourself is only 500 gp or less than the cost of a 3rd level potion).
Now if the Paladin wants to spend 1 feat (fey foundling), the Paladin increases his healing received by +2 per die, which means 4d6 became 4d6+8 (average of 22 HP / LoH). That brings the Paladin's heals up to the equivalent of 30.8 potions of cure light wounds or 1,540 gp worth of free healing each day. It also makes the effective healing he can receive from the wand of cure light wounds about 350 hp (pushing the effective cost of healing from the wand down from 3 gp per HP to 2.1 gp per HP, or about 25% less money).
Holy Sh*t. I totally missed that feat. That is just crazy good.
Not every barbarian out there have the beast totem rage powers, the diference in AC can be huge. Against single BBEG there could be not much difrence, the BBEG tend to have a high attack so he can hit low or high AC, but against a lot of minions the diference can be high.So what you're saying is a barbarian that isn't built to be a tank isn't so great at tanking? Well, who'da thunk it, right? I mean, it's not like every strength-based melee martial who's concerned with damage takes Power Attack (oh, wait, why wouldn't they?). Any barbarian who is concerned about their defenses has access to things that supplement their defenses (the beast totem line just happens to supplement both their defense AND offense).
I think this is a bit disingenuous Nicos. Fighter-proponents go on and on about things like Iron Will and Lightning Reflexes, even though their class doesn't give them those things. They talk like every fighter will have them when they are being compared to another class in terms of what their defenses look like. Meanwhile, a barbarian actually has the option to take a defensive ability AS HIS CLASS FEATURE and you suggest it be dismissed because "not all barbarians will take it".
Look, not all barbarians will take it. But barbarians focused on being tanks probably will. Just like not all Fighters will take Shield Focus, but those emphasizing defense probably will. Just like all Paladins won't take Fey Foundling, but those interested in longevity probably will. Just like a Ranger might not take Deadly Aim, but one interested in archery probably will.
When you build a character you probably make the best choices that fit your concepts, that is fine nobody argue that. I am just saying that superstition+beast totem+ Invulnerable rager >>>>> other choices. If the barbarian do not make specifically that choice he suffer for a significant power-down compared to the one who did .
that do not happens with fighter, paladins, cavaliers nor rangers.
Except for that it does. It's notoriously easy to screw up a Fighter, especially without going into it with a great system mastery. There are so many feats scattered about and only a very tiny subset of them are really worth pursuing (either because they are mediocre abilities, quickly become useless, or require stupidly large feat chains and/or high level requirements that make them impractical). Beast Totem and Superstition are good options for a defensive barbarian (though the beast totem line is good for offensive barbarians as well), though there are countless other barbarians that can be built while also being useful.
Strength Surge rules combat maneuvers, Come And Get Me punishes enemies for attacking her, Disruptive gives them the Disruptive feat without the prerequisites, the Dragon Totem line grants bonuses on saves vs a number of bad effects, perception checks, and grants energy resistances and increases her DR by up to 6, and flight.
The elemental rage powers grant all your weapons your choice of energy damage on all attacks and their respective burst property chosen when you rage (and then once you can rage cycle you can add the equivalent of 1 energy enhancement plus 1 energy burst enhancement to every melee attack). Fearless Rage immunizes you to fear effects (suck on it Bravery).
The Fiend Totem line grants a powerful natural attack that can be used alongside weapons, deals 1d6 damage to anything that hits you in melee, and an aura that auto-shakens all Neutral aligned creatures near them and damages good-aligned creatures for 2d6 damage each round. Flesh Wound allows the Barbarian to challenge a damage roll with a Fortitude save to take half damage and make it nonlethal (healing effects heal an equal amount of nonlethal damage which means if a barbarian suffers 40 points of lethal and 20 nonlethal and is healed for 20 damage then he now has 20 lethal and 0 nonlethal).
Ghost Rager allows the barbarian to deal full damage to all incorporeal creature and gain the superstition bonus to touch AC versus everything. Ground breaker turns all spaces around the Barbarian into difficult terrain which means that things cannot charge into or through them and makes it difficult to move past or use Acrobatics against the Barbarian, and it can be upgraded to to +15 ft. of difficult terrain in every direction. Guarded Life and Greater Guarded Life auto-stabilize the barbarian when they drop below 0 HP and converts a portion of their damage to nonlethal damage (which then gets a rebate healing on their next healing effect).
Increased Damage Reduction adds 1/- DR for each time that you've taken the power and it stacks with your usual DR (if you wanted to really be the bane of every martial thing ever you could grab dragon totems for +6 DR giving you DR 11/-, then use Extra Rage Power and Increase Damage Reduction to go to really goofy DRs like 15-20/- which also nets the barbarian something like 36-46 energy resistance in a chosen type). Combined with the Step-up line of feats, No Escape is just cruel and unusual. Scent gives you Scent!
Surprise Accuracy and rage cycling is a powerful way to ensure your iterative attacks land true (greatly improving your DPR) and Sharpened Accuracy lets you ignore concealment and cover and treat total concealment as concealment! Superstition, Spell Breaker, Spell Sunder, and Sunder Enchantment all excellent for fighting mages and people with magical weapons or traps.
The Spirit Totem line smacks enemies out to 15 ft. for negative-energy damage, a 20% evasion versus any attack not made from an adjacent source (stacks with concealment), and then punishes anyone in melee with an auto-1d8 negative energy damage every round during the rage (you're damned up close and damned far away). Unexpected Strike allows you to take an AoO for entering your threatened square (not leaving!) and rage-cycles for yummy results (and allows you to pummel the snot out of people who try to move around you with Acrobatics).
The world serpent totems make you immune to being knocked prone, increase your AC by +3 against all aberrations and outsiders (and another +3 when resisting a critical confirmation) and doubles your fast movement bonus.
Because clearly there are no good rage powers besides Superstition and Beast Totem. No, those are two that are just simple. It's easy to throw them onto pretty much any build if you're wanting more defensive abilities, just as Dodge is easy to throw onto most Fighter builds to be more defensive (except Dodge has a Dex prerequisite *shakes fist*).
Now if the Paladin wants to spend 1 feat (fey foundling), the Paladin increases his healing received by +2 per die, which means 4d6 became 4d6+8 (average of 22 HP / LoH). That brings the Paladin's heals up to the equivalent of 30.8 potions of cure light wounds or 1,540 gp worth of free healing each day. It also makes the effective healing he can receive from the wand of cure light wounds about 350 hp (pushing the effective cost of healing from the wand down from 3 gp per HP to 2.1 gp per HP, or about 25% less money).Holy Sh*t. I totally missed that feat. That is just crazy good.
You're welcome Zark. ^-^
I've helped Lemmy with one of his Paladins before. I always enjoy it when he sends me a PM about how well he's been doing. I don't think he'll mind if I cut a small portion from a story he told me, 'cause I think you guys would find it funny.
Hey, just passing by to thank you for the advice on the Paladin build. It was really useful. Thank you very much!
BTW... You got a Vampire smitten (and destroyed) in your name! The other players assumed "Ashiel" was the name of some NPC from Golarion. The bard actually rolled a Knowledge(History) but failed (mostly due to not even the GM being a poster in this forum.. the natural 4 didn't help either)
I told'em the sage story! Heh...
Anyway, thanks again!
PS: The "Fearless Aura" feat made the Barbarian's player (who usually plays a fighter) rage more than his character. I believe his exact words were something along the line of "And all fighters get is Bravery?! F%*% this s@$+!"
I <3 Lemmy. :D
Unsanctioned Knowledge is crazy sexy for a Paladin as well. A Paladin having access to Divine Power is pretty sexy (+CL to as temporary HP, up to a +5 luck bonus to hit/damage/CMB, strength checks, +1 attack per round as if hasted, and if you have a +2 CL trait then you hit +6 to hit and damage and Strength checks at 18th level, and it's likely to last entire combats). And then you also can also get several arcane spells as divine spells (no spell-failure %).
Yes, Unsanctioned Knowledge + Heroism + Divine Power are great.
The best part is junk like that stacks too! I mean, divine favor/power are luck bonuses. Heroism is a morale bonus. You can also have a trait that increases your CL by +2 (a good trait for a Paladin since it helps make their buffs last longer and fortify them against dispelling). So if you're 7th level (access to 2nd level spells) you can cast heroism which is active for an hour. That's +2 to attacks, saves, checks (ability & skill). Then during a battle you decide that you need to get your smite on, so during the first round you cast divine favor (+2 to attacks and damage) and then move up to engage. Kind of like a mini-barbarian rage. Also stacks with Inspire Courage from a bard.
Divine favor or Heroism can actually be cast as a quicken spell.
Metal magic rods are nice :-) especialy if you have quick draw or still spell.And Spell Perfection is a nice feat
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To be fair, Ashiel, a few of those powers you mentioned are not all that good.
Beast Totem does overpowers any of the other totem powers, because Pounce is just that good.
But then again, the fact the nearly every Barbarian takes it is not different from the fact that nearly every martial character gets Power Attack. Or the fact that no matter how many skills they have, everyone invests in Perception, even if it's not a class skill and they have low Wisdom score.
Some options are just too good/weak to be even considered real choices.
False choices is something I really don't like. Specially in a game where big part of the fun is building and customizing your character.
Which is why I'd love to see Power Attack, Deadly Aim, Combat Expertise, etc be turned into combat options instead of feats. They a have penalty to balance the benefit and are almost necessary to any martial who wants a decent DPR. So why not just give it to everyone?
Nearly every feat that already has a penalty included could be a combat option. What is the feat that gives you +4 to hit in exchange for your move action, and consequentely, your full attack? Bullseye Shot or something... How is that worth a feat? Why is there no aiming mechanics in the game? Why are combat maneuvers so restricted and increasingly weak? Why does punching people provokes AoO, but not if I punch them with my gauntlet?
Sometimes I feel like the game is trying its hardest to punish any creative thinking from martial classes.
That's where the good ol' "martials can't have nice things" comes from.
Now if the Paladin wants to spend 1 feat (fey foundling), the Paladin increases his healing received by +2 per die, which means 4d6 became 4d6+8 (average of 22 HP / LoH). That brings the Paladin's heals up to the equivalent of 30.8 potions of cure light wounds or 1,540 gp worth of free healing each day. It also makes the effective healing he can receive from the wand of cure light wounds about 350 hp (pushing the effective cost of healing from the wand down from 3 gp per HP to 2.1 gp per HP, or about 25% less money).Holy Sh*t. I totally missed that feat. That is just crazy good.
You're welcome Zark. ^-^
I've helped Lemmy with one of his Paladins before. I always enjoy it when he sends me a PM about how well he's been doing. I don't think he'll mind if I cut a small portion from a story he told me, 'cause I think you guys would find it funny.
I <3 Lemmy. :DHey, just passing by to thank you for the advice on the Paladin build. It was really useful. Thank you very much!
BTW... You got a Vampire smitten (and destroyed) in your name! The other players assumed "Ashiel" was the name of some NPC from Golarion. The bard actually rolled a Knowledge(History) but failed (mostly due to not even the GM being a poster in this forum.. the natural 4 didn't help either)
I told'em the sage story! Heh...
Anyway, thanks again!
PS: The "Fearless Aura" feat made the Barbarian's player (who usually plays a fighter) rage more than his character. I believe his exact words were something along the line of "And all fighters get is Bravery?! F%*% this s@$+!"
Hah... Good ol' Allan Sunspear. Fun times, fun times... Unfortunately he seems destined to be unplayable nowadays. I was using him in a campaign, and the group dissolved. Then I tried it in another campaign (with a different name and backstory for a more viking-ish feel), and that particular GM hasn't GMed in a long time... -.-'
SOMEDAY, I SHALL TURN HIM INTO THE GREATEST OF PALADINS!BTW:
I've helped Lemmy with one of his Paladins before. I always enjoy it when he sends me a PM about how well he's been doing. I don't think he'll mind if I cut a small portion from a story he told me, 'cause I think you guys would find it funny.
I was tempted to act outraged just for the lulz. Then I realized the joke wasn't that fun... Maybe next time, though...
I <3 Lemmy. :D
Not your fault. Everyone does, sooner or later...
To be fair, Ashiel, a few of those powers you mentioned are not all that good.
Almost every one I mentioned is leaps and bounds over the quality of feats, and don't have any prerequisites other than other powers which are also leaps and bounds over the quality of feats. :P
For example, if I wanted to make some sort of feral animist barbarian who uses unarmed attacks, I could go with
Lesser Beast Totem (2 primary claws), Beast Totem (+natural armor), Greater Beast Totem ('cause Pounce!), Fiend Totem (primary gore attack), Animal Fury (gain a secondary bite attack that can also be used as part of a grapple), Superstition (+saves vs magic, prerequisite), Ghost Rager (all my attacks are now ghost touch + more touch AC), Lesser Elemental Totem and Elemental Totem (I can add up to +2d6 energy damage chosen when I rage to all my melee attacks), and Knockdown (allowing me to replace any melee attack with a normal trip attempt that doesn't provoke and deal damage equal to my Strength as a kicker).
For feats I'ma grab Power Attack, Improved Unarmed Strike (you'll see why in a bit), and probably Extra Rage Power a few times to quickly amass my powers.
The result is a barbarian who has 4 natural attacks (3 of them at 3rd level), 3 of them are primary natural attacks, plus my unarmed strikes (which allow me to wear gauntlets for piercing material DRs and get my iterative attacks on). All my attacks will end up with ghost touch and the equivalent of two elemental powers I choose (such as +1d6 acid and cold). I'll grab an amulet of natural armor and just go strait enhancement bonus all the way for bonus hit and damage and DR-penetration on all of my attacks. I'll trade low iterative attacks for a normal trip attempt (it doesn't require you to use the same attack bonus as the sacrificed attack) to throw people on the ground while I'm beating on them.
Yeah it uses Beast Totem and Superstition but mainly for prerequisites. It just shows that Barbarians have synergy. Nicos can complain that Barbarians without X aren't very good. Well, as you noted, Melee without Power Attack or Ranged without Deadly Aim are pretty terrible. So if there's a couple of commonly used powers that are used as prerequisites, what's the point in complaining about them other than the jealousy that fighters don't get nice things? :P
But then again, the fact the nearly every Barbarian takes it is not different from the fact that nearly every martial character gets Power Attack. Or the fact that no matter how many skills they have, everyone invests in Perception, even if it's not a class skill and they have low Wisdom score.
Some options are just too good/weak to be even considered real choices.
False choices is something I really don't like. Specially in a game where big part of the fun is building and customizing your character.
Which is why I'd love to see Power Attack, Deadly Aim, Combat Expertise, etc be turned into combat options instead of feats. They a have penalty to balance the benefit and are almost necessary to any martial who wants a decent DPR. So why not just give it to everyone?
Nearly every feat that already has a penalty included could be a combat option. What is the feat that gives you +4 to hit in exchange for your move action, and consequentely, your full attack. How is that worth a feat? Why is there no aiming mechanic in the game? Why are combat maneuvers so restricted and increasingly weak? Why does punching people provokes AoO, but not if I punch them with my gauntlet?
Sometimes I feel like the game is trying its hardest to punish any creative thinking from martial classes.
That's where the good ol' "martials can't have nice things" comes from.
Agreed 100%. Honestly I wouldn't mind if things like Power Attack, Deadly Aim, and Combat Expertise were just made standard combat features. Combat Expertise could simply replace Fighting Defensively.
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I mean, there are several ways to screw a fighter (or paladin or ranger or whatever) build. But there is no one fighter build that is THE fighter build. If you go for a melee fighter you take power attack, but that is just one choice not 4-7. There are several choices for good builds and all those builds can have more or less the same level of system mastery. If you replace fighter for paladin/ranger, the same statement holds.
For barbarians there exist THE build that is clearly superior to the others. And I mean plain superior to others barbarians.
3 beast totem rage powers + invulnerable rager + superstition chain + human for more superstition.
Not quite. I don't really like the invulnerable rager archetype. I prefer the elemental kin archetype (because refueling your batteries with energy damage is sweet). I like defensive barbarians, but offensive barbarians mix a few of the same rage powers. Most barbarians I'll have will have Superstition because it's darn useful, but that's an option to have a class feature that gives bonuses to saves. Superstition, hell even the whole Beast Totem line doesn't make a build. You could take those 4 rage powers the entire way and still have your build go in a completely different direction.
Also, humans are nice but they aren't THE build for barbarians. Dwarf + Steel Soul + Trait = +5 vs Magic & poison 24/7 plus superstition's bonus and it comes more front-loaded (and the fast movement combos nicely with the inability to be slowed by armor or encumbrance, especially if you want to take the dragon totem line which makes you faster and gives you flight), and it has the favored class option of adding +level to the number of rounds you can rage per day, and the +2 to Con/Wis is pretty sweet for a Barbarian (along with free dwarf proficiencies).
See, the funny thing is that there are lots of THE builds for barbarians. AM Barbarian, the Layered Defense Barbarian, the Anti-Caster Barbarian who eats mage carpet bombs and gets stronger for it. The fury-born natural attack bruiser who can scare monks and druids with their natural attacks! The battlefield control barbarian who wields a bigass reach weapon, has combat reflexes, strength surge, and ground breaker (and maybe combat patrol just to be a douche) who locks enemies down in a nightmare of difficult terrain and while himself being surprisingly mobile and resilient. The mounted barbarian who shares all the benefits of his rage and rage powers with her mount. The archery barbarian who uses an adaptive bow and powers like Reckless Abandon, Mighty Blow, Surprise Accuracy, and Sharpened Accuracy (which can replace Improved Precise Shot and is available before it). All while dabbling in powers that let you be more defensive.
I've seen people build strong Barbarians without powers like Superstition, but most of us desire more well-rounded and defensible martials because we know there's not much damage to be done when you're a lawn ornament.
Also, humans are nice but they aren't THE build for barbarians. Dwarf + Steel Soul + Trait = +5 vs Magic & poison 24/7 plus superstition's bonus and it comes more front-loaded (and the fast movement combos nicely with the inability to be slowed by armor or encumbrance, especially if you want to take the dragon totem line which makes you faster and gives you flight), and it has the favored class option of adding +level to the number of rounds you can rage per day, and the +2 to Con/Wis is pretty sweet for a Barbarian (along with free dwarf proficiencies).
Fun fact about this trait, it's a Region trait, not a Race trait, so humans can take it too!
Apparently there are some half-dwarves walking around golarion...