Sound Striker Bard plus Paladin.
At level 10, you have 10 touch attacks that each add your charisma to damage, and each add your full smite damage, too.
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Depends, really. My GM likes to use gestalt, so I've gotten a nice mix of characters I want to try. We normally roll for stats, so we sometimes use the opportunity to get pretty MAD.
Paladin+Rogue with a high focus on dex/dodging - all good saves and lovely lovely skill points plus healing and sneaks
Archivist Bard+Bladebound/Kensai Magus - lots of skills and skill points, lots of spells to the point you can focus one side nearly entirely on buffs and the other on damage
Arcane Duelist Bard + Cavalier - especially if you go with a halfling, gnome, or kobold for small size so your mount can go more places. Ultimate drill sergeant.
Inquisitor+Ranger - as already stated upthread. I call it Javert.
Witch+Kensai Magus - seems like it would be very nice to have, especially if your chosen weapon is reach and keeps you out of direct melee long enough for canny defense to catch up to your int modifier. Plus access to healing!
Rogue+Bladebound/Kensai Magus - same principle as witch, really. Without the healing.
Rogue+Witch - go with an archer rogue to keep out of melee anyway, and witch gives you some nice tricks and won't lose you your evasion/uncanny dodge.
And this is without the 3.5 classes allowed...
Fire and ice...
Barbarian (Invulnerable Rager) / Monk (Martial Artist)
I tend to be of the opinion that you should try to synergize the stat requirements.
Thus trying to do a caster/martial doesn't work for me. You end up with severe MAD issues.
In the one gestalt campaign I've played in, I ran a sorcerer/oracle. I pumped charisma to 20 at level 1 (gnome) and then did shadow bloodline and life mystery (heavens might have been better since I focused on illusion). The build was devastating by high level.
The reason the table was gestalt, though, was because a lot of the players were new to the game and the DM wanted the noobs to be powerful. Being rather experienced, I decided to make a backstop for the party which could haul their ashes out of the fire if necessary. As a rule I would lead in with haste and then do some buffing healing, letting the noobs have their moments of glory. Only when the excrement started to hit the ventilator did I bring out the hammer and get to work.
I would like to try some gestalt martials one of these days. I like the idea of a fighter/barbarian, fighter/paladin, or fighter/ranger. All of these would be interesting because you would have feats out the wazoo, and good baseline damage from the fighter specific feats/abilities. I know they wouldn't be anywhere as powerful as that sorc/oracle but I generally don't build around pure power.
Wizard/Fighter best wizard archetypes to use are either teleportation conjurer or air elementalist
Wizard/DSP Psion; Witch or Sage bloodline sorcerer also works as a valid substitute for either. Int does the heavy lifting, Cerebremancers Watch Out.
Sorcerer/Oracle: a SAD mystic theurge, just don't take sage or empyreal bloodlines
Cleric/DSP Vitalist or Druid/DSP Vitalist: wisdom does the heavy lifting here. ultimate healer
Rogue/Wizard: the king of skills. don't think of it as a sneak blaster, think of it as a greater invisible, flying, hasted, immediate short range teleporting, backstabbing fiend with a pair of agile weapons and pirahna strike. it can also use skills to pimp skill checks and fill many naruto inspired fantasies.
Bard/Sorcerer: the ultimate face, Charisma does all the heavy lifting, giving your more spells and better social skills.
Oh, wait, I forgot Oracle+Bard. You are the god of healing and buffs.
This thread might not be seeking advice, but strictly speaking it still doesn't belong here, in the Pathfinder RPG General Discussion forum, because there is no such thing as "gestalt characters" in the Pathfinder RPG.
(And by the way, "gestalt" is a really stupid name for this concept.)
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We have a Bard/Summoner and he wrecks s&#*. Had to teach him a lesson to cover himself last week though because he kept leaving himself in straight charge lanes for things like Ghasts because he thought I was always going to attack the Eidolon first.
Friend of mine just made a Bladebound Kensai/Monk (Sohei) that looks like it's gonna be cool.
(And by the way, "gestalt" is a really stupid name for this concept.)
"Gestalt: a structure, configuration, or pattern of physical, biological, or psychological phenomena so integrated as to constitute a functional unit with properties not derivable by summation of its parts."
I rather think it's a fitting name.
Generally speaking, pairing a full BAB class (barbarian, cavalier, fighter, gunslinger, paladin, or ranger) with a spellcasting class (alchemist*, bard, cleric, druid, inquisitor, magus, oracle, sorcerer, summoner, witch, or wizard) tends to be a strong combination. Barbarian/alchemists, barbarian/druids, barbarian/synthesist summoners, cavalier/inquisitors, fighter/clerics, fighter/magi, gunslinger/alchemists, gunslinger/inquisitors, paladin/bards, paladin/oracles, paladin/summoners, ranger/clerics, and ranger/inquisitors can be especially brutal, as can archer fighters or rangers paired with sorcerer, witch, or wizard.
Pairing two spellcasting classes can also be very strong, especially if the classes use the same ability score for spells or other class features (like Channel Energy). Alchemist/magus, bard/cleric, bard/oracle, bard/summoner, cleric/druid, cleric/inquisitor, cleric/oracle, cleric/summoner, and druid/inquisitor are all efficient pairings. Other pairings can be strong as well, but require more work (spreading ability scores, armor use limitations) to bring off.
+3/4 BAB non-caster classes (monk, rogue) should ideally be paired with a spellcasting class. Cleric/monk and inquisitor/monk have some obvious synergies, but monk paired with sorcerer, witch, or wizard gives some extremely useful benefits despite the need to spread out ability scores a bit more. Rogues work extremely well with alchemist, bard, inquisitor, magus, summoner, sorcerer, witch, or wizard; cleric, druid, or oracle can also work, but require a bit more effort/planning.
*-Technically, the alchemist doesn't "cast" spells, but extracts are close enough.
How about synergizing more directly a martial and casting class. I am thinking Martial/Monk with Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple. Monk abilities would work well with a Dragon as would a Ranger with combat buff spells and bonus combat feats from the Natural tree.
Personally I like Invulnerable Barbarian. A Pouncing, Arcane Striking,Raging Brutality, Witch Hunting Dragon(3) would seem to be the very definition of DRAGON!!
To date, I've played:
a cleric/inquisitor - spells and skills.
a sorceror/bard. (Rakshasa bloodline) - spells and party face+
a priest/druid - spells, skills, other good stuff.
My favourite? The sorc/bard...he could talk the knickers off a nun!! :)
Sadly, I didn't get to play any of them for too long.
Oh, another one I've kind of always wanted to try:
White Haired Witch plus Monk or Ranger.
I initially misread this as "What pairs of classes do you like best for genitals?" which is a completely different discussion!
Fighter/Rogue is an excellent option, you can make a dex-based warrior with full BAB, sneak attack, Piranah strike or dervish dance, and tons of skills.
Basically any two classes using the same casting stat
Alchemist/Wizard
Magus/Wizard
Magus/alchemist
Sorcerer/Oracle
etcetera
At the moment I'm running a 27 point buy Universalist wizard/First world evolutionist summoner. The eidolon only has half BAB with 3/4 HD and 6 hit points per die. We combined casting in a funky way where I get the benefits of not having to memorize spells ahead of time like a summoner but I can learn spells from spellbooks and have to keep a spellbook of my own which I have to study. I have fey foundling, fast learning and cypher script to minimize the trouble spell research puts on my party, and at the same time minimizes the crafting for profit that our other crafting for profit party members can get away with...
My maximum spells known is unlimited like a wizard, but my spells per day is only one or the other, not both. Its definitely not a one man party and hasnt risen to be one of the 'notorious' builds on the forums, but as you can imagine anyone who thinks wizards are too powerful to begin with reeeeeeely hate my build.
Im also an arcane builder of wondrous items who has been known on a few occasions to craft for profit. Our gm doesn't love the idea but he's allowing it under the pretense that he wants to show me no matter how hard I pull back on the riegns that its game breakingly horrible and that the game wont be challenging a all. I'm running it under the pretense of proving to him that I can handle that level of power gracefully and still keep it fun, and point out all the situations where he almost kills me outright to prove to him that he still can. Its a learning experience. YMMV.
I just hit level 7 last week and so far I consider it maximum fun. The eidolon only overshadowed the damage of our combat builds in the early levels but tapered off fast.
We've got an alchemist rogue with a bow and 'gang-up' to get sneak attack at range, an inquisitor monk with a flurrying glaive, and a cleric monk.
DSP Cryptic/Rogue; skill monkey, excellent scout, amazing with traps, can take knifemaster or swashbuckler archetypes with almost no penalty
Monk/Druid armor of wisdom, flurry of natural weapons, fast air walking self buffing melee with a pet.
Fighter/Bard: ultimate buffed archer. Full BaB, weapon training, lots of feats performance, haste, lots skills, good hope, inspirations as needed, and all good saving throws.
Vitalist/Monk decent AC w/ inertial armor, can heal through hive mind, and siphon health/heal from long range. broken with a guided monk weapon
Dragon Disicple/Barbarian w/ Eldritch Heritage (Abyssal). massive strength boost, hits hard with a 2hand weapon, can use transmutation spells to pump strength higher or even fly
Druid/Barbarian; poor AC, but rage combines beautifully with wildshape. remember a form with pounce and lots of natural attacks.
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This thread might not be seeking advice, but strictly speaking it still doesn't belong here, in the Pathfinder RPG General Discussion forum, because there is no such thing as "gestalt characters" in the Pathfinder RPG.
(And by the way, "gestalt" is a really stupid name for this concept.)
and poo poo to you too.
This is my Wizard/Sor (the one that uses Int). Plus he's got all the drow-y goodness. Was kind of an awesome font of arcane power.
Synthesist Summoner can combine with virtually anything in gestalt to effectively give you a ton of extra effective HP, all the goodness of evolutions and the combat/utility ability that implies, and some spellcasting off of a very nice list. Since it replaces your physical scores, you can end up with ultra SAD combinations if you pick another Cha class like Sorcerer or Oracle...only you will also be very capable in melee.
A Synthesist Paladin would be virtually indestructable and still have impressive damage dealing ability and casting ability (Cha fueling spellcasting, Smite, and Saves). Tack on the swift action LoH and mercies, and well...you get the idea.
I am running a Synthesist Magus right now, thats been super fun so far. Its going to be capable of some really fun stuff at later levels. Even though the classes do not favor the same abilities, its no more MAD than any other Magus build;instead of Dex or Str plus Int, I instead pump Int and Cha, letting Sythesist take care of the physicals.
Or you could make the ultimite summoner by combining a Master Summoner with either Druid or Sylvan Sorcerer. Grap eldritch heritage for a familiar while youare at it. Now you have an Eidolon, an Animal Companion, a wand wielding Familiar, and as many standard action, min/lvl summon monster spells as you can fill the board with! You could also use Summon Nature's Ally spells if you want to...
Yeah...I wouldnt recommend anyone actually play that last one. Talk about your turn taking forever. Hehe.
I play a lot of Gestalts.
Sorc/Monk is fun, but bad on MAD, but we never played really optimized games, so that didn't cause problems.
Paladin/Monk with Vow of Poverty (adjust to not be so horrible). Best saves around, and Wis and Cha as major stats. Worked ok, and smite with Flurry was ugly. Some serious damage.
In a D&D 3.5 Wahoo! campaign we did triple gestalt - but niche protection was in - all three classes needed to not cover all possibilities - so no rogue/Fighter/Wizard. Played a Wiz/Sorc/Warlock - so much magic that he could just shoot it out of his hands.
One that I've not played but look fun. Halfling Ranger/Paladin. Has a big cat for his mount, and good at bow. Favored enemy on top of smite would be really up there with damage.
Another one I just started playing - (using Dreamscarred's Psionic rules) is a Aegis/Mindblade. Looks like not much then he powers up. That one isn't so much covering weaknesses as theme.
In that vein, Cleric/Paladin, with the paladin using as nonspellcasting archtype.
Sorc/Monk's not too MaD if you take the Empyreal archetype. Not supar impressive but cuts down on the MaDness (No!) of a combo like that significntly.
Sorc/Monk is fun, but bad on MAD, but we never played really optimized games, so that didn't cause problems.
It's not mad for an Empyreal Sorcerer.
Sohei 1/Empyreal Sorcerer X/Eldritch Knight is one of the best EK builds, in my opinion.
Barbarian//Druid/Dinosaur Cultist
NOM NOM NOM
Paladin/Oracle is a really strong grouping.
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Summoner/Barbarian. Use your eidolon as a mount and take the rage powers that let your mount rage and use your rage powers.
Synthesist replaces your BAB. Combining it with a full BAB class will make you hit less. It will also conflict with rage and mutagen because those boost your physical stats, which it then replaces. It will also clash with wildshape so most druids aren't a good match either.
I'd expect Rage and Mutagen would still work on top of the eidolons stats. They are still class features that you can use (somehow grabbing your Mutagen out of yourself notwithstanding), and for all intents and purposes, the Eidolon's physical stats simply are the synthesist's while fused. In the same way Enhancement bonuses from items that the synthesist wears will effect the new stats, I'd think Rage and the like would too. That said, it is a bit of a gray area.
Synthesist replaces your BAB. Combining it with a full BAB class will make you hit less. It will also conflict with rage and mutagen because those boost your physical stats, which it then replaces. It will also clash with wildshape so most druids aren't a good match either.I'd expect Rage and Mutagen would still work on top of the eidolons stats. They are still class features that you can use (somehow grabbing your Mutagen out of yourself notwithstanding), and for all intents and purposes, the Eidolon's physical stats simply are the synthesist's while fused. In the same way Enhancement bonuses from items that the synthesist wears will effect the new stats, I'd think Rage and the like would too. That said, it is a bit of a gray area.
This is true. Those abilities will work just fine for a synthesist. The synthesist REPLACES your physical stats. That means they ARE your physical stats. Anything you do to enhance or otherwise modify your physical stats while fised to the eidolon affect the physical scores normally. For example, if you want an inherant bonus to Str, you read tomes or cast wish while fused and the eidolon's stats are increased. Rage and Mutagen would work without issue. Its gray because the archetype wasnt particularly well defined in publication. FAQs have adressed pretty much everything I've needed them to. (As extensive as they were, they better have, lol.)
Including the BAB business. The eidolon's BAB does NOT replace your total BAB. A normal multiclass fighter 19 / Synthesist 1 has a 19 BAB. while not fused, and a 20 BAB while fused. Check the FAQ.
Unlike magus, synthesist does nothing to help you be a more effective full caster.
Come on man. no disrespect intended, but you can do SO much with evolutions its silly. and they are so versatile the evolutions you choose can be tailored to supplement and augment whatever other class you pair it to.
for a full caster? How about more than doubling your effective HP (well that applies to any Syn build), the ability to have stupid high AC (ditto), immunity to any and all elemental damage, the ability to have immunity to various status effects (fatigue, exhaustion, sleep, poison, disease, paralysis, stun...all via undead appearacne), the ability to pump any skill(s) you want by +8, and the related ability to get perception through the roof to combine with your super senses (darkvision out of the box, with the option for everything up to blindsight and lifesense). Why not throw in DR and SR? Want concealment all the time? Get Shadow Meld. Etc etc etc.
Your full caster will no longer ever get surprised. You dictate the terms of every single battle because of your boosted senses. and when you do get attacked or cornered, your virtually immune magic via elemental resistances, coupled with good saves and high SR (if you want it). You are also really hard to hit due to high AC, but if they do hit, you have virtually constant miss chance, then DR, then an absurdly high HP total.
Synthesist works reasonably well with ANY class, but the survivability it gives to a full caster takes it to another level. IMO it adds MORE to a full caster than a martial. You dont have to build it as a 6 headed pouncing nom-beast ya know? And thats to say nothing of the nice spell list that can get early access to lots of great spells and the awesome standard action min/lvl summons you can use if you get caught without your eidolon (or ya just want to use a summoned monster forsomething).
I am currently playing a synthesist/bladebound kensai. Seems to be working well so far, but only second level.
Funny. Mine's a synthesist/bladebound hexcrafter. Also working well so far. Its only going to get smoother at higher levels from what I can see. ;-)
Including the BAB business. The eidolon's BAB does NOT replace your total BAB. A normal multiclass fighter 19 / Synthesist 1 has a 19 BAB. while not fused, and a 20 BAB while fused. Check the FAQ.
Well, I was gonna mention this too, but then I realized that Gestalt might actually mess that up.
It's one thing to replace your Synthesist BAB with the eidolon's and then still add in that of other classes. But a Synth/Barb's innate BAB isn't 15+5. It's just 20, while the Eidolon's is 15. So if you replace the character's BAB with the Eidolon's...
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Come on man. no disrespect intended, but you can do SO much with evolutions its silly. and they are so versatile the evolutions you choose can be tailored to supplement and augment whatever other class you pair it to.
for a full caster? How about more than doubling your effective HP (well that applies to any Syn build), the ability to have stupid high AC (ditto), immunity to any and all elemental damage, the ability to have immunity to various status effects (fatigue, exhaustion, sleep, poison, disease, paralysis, stun...all via undead appearacne), the ability to pump any skill(s) you want by +8, and the related ability to get perception through the roof to combine with your super senses (darkvision out of the box, with the option for everything up to blindsight and lifesense). Why not throw in DR and SR? Want concealment all the time? Get Shadow Meld. Etc etc etc.
Except not even a level 20 synthesist is going to have the evolutions to afford half of that. Most of those, except for the multiple elemental immunities, can be picked up through other means.
Including the BAB business. The eidolon's BAB does NOT replace your total BAB. A normal multiclass fighter 19 / Synthesist 1 has a 19 BAB. while not fused, and a 20 BAB while fused. Check the FAQ.Well, I was gonna mention this too, but then I realized that Gestalt might actually mess that up.
It's one thing to replace your Synthesist BAB with the eidolon's and then still add in that of other classes. But a Synth/Barb's innate BAB isn't 15+5. It's just 20, while the Eidolon's is 15. So if you replace the character's BAB with the Eidolon's...
I fail to see how thats different. If it works for a multi-class character, it should work the same way for a gestalt character. The Barbarian wouldn't lose his full BAB when fused, just like the multiclass Fighter from my example didn't lose his.
I want to try a Ragedancer sometime. An Invulnerable Rager Urban Barbarian / Dervish Dancer Bard. It sounds ridiculously fun to me.
Sadly I've never gotten a gestalt game going yet.
Except not even a level 20 synthesist is going to have the evolutions to afford half of that. Most of those, except for the multiple elemental immunities, can be picked up through other means.Come on man. no disrespect intended, but you can do SO much with evolutions its silly. and they are so versatile the evolutions you choose can be tailored to supplement and augment whatever other class you pair it to.
for a full caster? How about more than doubling your effective HP (well that applies to any Syn build), the ability to have stupid high AC (ditto), immunity to any and all elemental damage, the ability to have immunity to various status effects (fatigue, exhaustion, sleep, poison, disease, paralysis, stun...all via undead appearacne), the ability to pump any skill(s) you want by +8, and the related ability to get perception through the roof to combine with your super senses (darkvision out of the box, with the option for everything up to blindsight and lifesense). Why not throw in DR and SR? Want concealment all the time? Get Shadow Meld. Etc etc etc.
I didn't mean to imply you could have ALL of that, but you can easily get a lot of it. when you aren't spending points on ability increases and extra attacks or large/huge, you free up quite a few points for defense and utility. You dont even need to invest much in AC to get a huge boost there. Obviously, imp NA helps if ya have extra points though.
For example: 6 points to undead appearance for status immunities. 3 points for Lifesense (or Blindsense if you anticipate lots of undead/constructs). 10 points for the 4 elemental immunities plus sonic (I like to use surge for these, but why not have afew of them always on?). 3 points for DR 5, 2 more to upgrade to DR 10. 4 for SR...personally I like to use Evolution Surge on this one, but its not unaffordable to have always on. 2 points for concealment as long as in anything other than bright light.
All of that is 31 points. More than standard progression(26) but if you are a half elf, youre set and you can always get Extra Evolution up to 5 times as well. Any extra points cam go to Skilled and Imp. NA. I would sacrifice a couple things above to at least get Skilled in perception and stealth, as well as imp NA at least a couple times, but you really can have ALL of it if you really want to (if you're a half elf anyway).
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gunslinger/monk
seriously full bab, good hit dice, lots of staking dex and wis abilities, and all good saves.
I fail to see how thats different. If it works for a multi-class character, it should work the same way for a gestalt character. The Barbarian wouldn't lose his full BAB when fused, just like the multiclass Fighter from my example didn't lose his.
Well, I'm thinking of it this way.
A Synth 10/Barb 10 multiclass has 7 BAB from the Synthesist and 10 BAB from the Barbarian. So 7+10 = 17 BAB.
When fused, his 7 BAB is replaced by the Eidolon's 8, while the Barb's 10 BAB is still place on top of it, so he gets 18 BAB instead.
With a Synth/Barb 20 Gestalt, you're taking the higher of each of them at every level (Barbarian's), but they're not being tracked separately. It's not 15+5 = 20 like multiclassing, or the higher of 15 or 20. It's just a flat 20.
So, when fused, the BAB from all 20 of your Synthesist levels would be replaced by the Eidolon's. But all of your Synthesist levels are pretty much linked to all of your Barbarian levels too. If they were actually tracked separately, then BAB would be completely additive between Gestalts, for 15+20 = 35 on a Synth/Barb. Instead, it's on a level by level basis. You know what I mean?
I don't know, I'm not terribly familiar with Gestalt rules, and I think it probably makes much more sense for the Barbarian's BAB to be used. But based on the way they work, I could see it being set to 15 instead.
I fail to see how thats different. If it works for a multi-class character, it should work the same way for a gestalt character. The Barbarian wouldn't lose his full BAB when fused, just like the multiclass Fighter from my example didn't lose his.Well, I'm thinking of it this way.
A Synth 10/Barb 10 multiclass has 7 BAB from the Synthesist and 10 BAB from the Barbarian. So 7+10 = 17 BAB.
When fused, his 7 BAB is replaced by the Eidolon's 8, while the Barb's 10 BAB is still place on top of it, so he gets 18 BAB instead.
With a Synth/Barb 20 Gestalt, you're taking the higher of each of them at every level (Barbarian's), but they're not being tracked separately. It's not 15+5 = 20 like multiclassing, or the higher of 15 or 20. It's just a flat 20.
So, when fused, the BAB from all 20 of your Synthesist levels would be replaced by the Eidolon's. But all of your Synthesist levels are pretty much linked to all of your Barbarian levels too. If they were actually tracked separately, then BAB would be completely additive between Gestalts, for 15+20 = 35 on a Synth/Barb. Instead, it's on a level by level basis. You know what I mean?
I don't know, I'm not terribly familiar with Gestalt rules, and I think it probably makes much more sense for the Barbarian's BAB to be used. But based on the way they works, I could see it being set to 15 instead.
Okay I see what you mean. I would counter that the eidolon's BAB replaces the summoner's BAB, but you got BAB every level from Barbarian not summoner, so it should effectively just use the Barb's bonus since its higher. There is admittedly room for interpretation there though. At least i don't need to worry about this for the character I am playing since he doesn't have a full BAB class. ;-)
I'm not really an expert in gestalt rules either though, and obviously synthesist didn't exist when the rules were written(and the rules are 3.5 rules that haven't been redone in PF) so I'll leave it at that and let the discussion get back on track.