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Running an eight person table is going to be a challenge, especially if some or all of those players are less experienced. And as a first time GM, you're going to have your hands full. Some considerations:
-Keep the PCs simple. Maybe use the Core Rulebook only for character creation, and hold the PCs to a 15-point buy. If anyone wants to play a class with a familiar or animal companion, make sure they're good and quick and running their character. Don't allow the Leadership feat.
-Table discipline. Ask everyone to plan their combat moves during others' turns. Keep side-talk to a minimum.
-Monsters should get max xp. If you find that your encounters are too easy for the group, give some of the monsters the advanced simple template.
-Don't award extra xp. It may be tempting, especially if the group does something creative or unexpected, but hold them to the xp awarded for 5-6 people on the CR chart.
-Later on, you might want to think about assigning one of the players as "Assistant GM," especially for the kingdom building segments of the game. They can handle things like run the initiative order in combat, keep track of kingdom statistics, etc.
I'm very curious how this threat will play out - I just started a KM game a few weeks back with 9, so I suspect I could use advice as well on that front. I'll share what I've come up with, and what folks have suggested to me:
a) No summons/summoners - not so useful for me since I already allowed one before I got that little gem, but I'm allowing him to run a Synthasist (doubly cursed!) under the idea that it'll reduce the amount of character actions he brings to the table. Summon spells - when they are used - give minimum results as long as the group is big. Also banning companions an standard leadership for the moment. This is all to reduce the player economy of action & keep combat moving faster than a snails' pace. Getting players to get organized before their turn also helps - maybe a return to the classic "caller" system? - I've suggested it but been unable to get my crew to go with it.
b)Wandering monsters are your friend. They really really are. I've found they're especially useful in KM for filling in xp & loot that might otherwise seem lacking because of a larger group.
c) On planned encounters: The suggestion on adding extras to a fight is good. Adding one or two mooks per pc above 5 is a good start. Remember the base assumption that a group of 6 + counts as an apl +1 works (kinda) for realigning many encounters as well, so adding the Advanced (or other) template (s) are a good way to beef up solo or boss critters too. With some of the encounters though, it may be worth it to beef up a critter to the next tougher size/type
d) xp jiggering: I always use the generalized, rather than exact split, rule for divvying up xp, as it stops arguments at the table about too many pcs reducing individual pc xp yields fairly effectively. If they know they'll all be getting the same cut, no mater how many above 5 they have, they tend to be more comfortable with the extra help. You might also bump the bonus exp for exploring, quests & kingdom management by one step (usually 1 CR rank should do it).
e) adding adventures/encounters: one great thing about KM is it's flexibility for adding in new material. Unlike some other APs, it's fairly easy to modify a module or encounter from another AP and just tuck it willy-nilly into an otherwise empty hex. Same goes for whole-cloth original encounters. I'm currently planning on tucking in "From Shore to Sea" in Candlemere/part two, and am considering squeezing in the adaptation of "Castle Amber" discussed elsewhere on these forums (something I seem to recall at least one other has done with their KM game to some success). Also hoping to squeeze in "Thornkeep" and "Emerald Spire" (once it's out) if I can ever settle on where to tuck them.
Anyway, thats more than I'd originally intended to toss out, but hopefully useful advice none the less, and I look forward to seeing what you and others have to say on the subject (given I'm in a similar boat).
Actually it's 5% every time you enter a new hex, 15% each day, AND 15% each night camping out, so over all lots of little chances for extra action. One thing I like to do there is roll for potential encounters before play & note down results so I'll be ready well ahead of time (so, for example, I'll know the 3rd hex they enter will have 4 bandits wandering about pretending to be hunters because they're outnumbered, the second day out they'll run into a herd of Elk that will aggressively attack because it's spring and the young bucks are challenging everything, and the 5th night camping they are attacked by a pair of trolls looking for a late night snack - maybe slap the Young template on one or both to give low level heroes slightly better chances. Being ready ahead of time for wandering critters really helps with fine-tuning fights, adding terrain features (like maybe a cave with a small entrance so the Pcs can hide from Trolls if they need to retreat), or even working out special loot for the monsters so you can get a little extra gear to the party, etc.
Getting your group well-versed with the KM building rules well ahead of time is also good. Amongst other things It'll mean that if they have any problems with them you'll get plenty of warning (first time I ran KM my players HATED the rules, so I ended up having to find an alt set of rules to use on the fly - didn't work too well). Remember also to look up advice & suggestions here on the forums for pros & cons of the system (it really was effectively a play test rules set for the revised & updated rules we'll likely be seeing in the upcoming Ultimate Campaign Guide book in, what is it? March? May?). The free Wayfinder fanzine also has a few issues with additional buildings & optional rules that are worth checking out.
10-point buy, average HP after 1st, low magic, low wealth, no hero points and you probably don't even need to scale encounters. 1st level will probably be ridiculously easy, but it should scale fairly well beyond that.
10-point buy, low magic, low wealth, no hero points and you probably don't even need to scale encounters. 1st level will probably be ridiculously easy, but it should scale fairly well beyond that.
I'd disagree with the Hero Point, as I find them useful as a counter to less magic items available from loot divisions (which gets rather noticeable once you hit higher levels). That being said, I can see the point of one less optional rules set at the table to keep track of being a good thing, so you could go either way with it. Pros and cons on both sides.
Eight is too many. Ugh... But sounds like it must happen.
They will like the wide open area fights, of which there are plenty, so let them have their fun. Its the dungeons that they will rue. You could modify them to be wider, or you let the party adapt to the conditions, which might be a grueling process depending on your DM style and the players' styles. I'm skeptical though.
Loot is to be found here and there, but it is slim even for a standard sized party. I would add extra treasure, but still drop hints to the players to not make their characters too dependent on magic items.
What is player attendance like? Before you devote all of your time rebuilding the encounters for 8 characters, consider that you may have an average attendance of less than that. I would amend the encounters to suit 5-6 characters, and make a note of what should be added when you have 7-8.
Could you not make it two games with 4 each?
Half your players will be bored all the time with 8 players.
No summoners. No combat pets. Limit summoning spells in combat- one per side at a time.
Have one of the players track initiative, and announce when the next guy is up, too. "Halfdan you're up- Bordflak, you're next". When you're up, you must know what you're gonna do, have the page open to that spell, etc.
Limit books, I suggest Core & APG to start.
10-point buy, low magic, low wealth, no hero points and you probably don't even need to scale encounters. 1st level will probably be ridiculously easy, but it should scale fairly well beyond that.I'd disagree with the Hero Point, as I find them useful as a counter to less magic items available from loot divisions (which gets rather noticeable once you hit higher levels). That being said, I can see the point of one less optional rules set at the table to keep track of being a good thing, so you could go either way with it. Pros and cons on both sides.
Well, I'm just thinking if you have 8 good players who communicate well and design their characters so they each play a role, using the hero point system (which comes with the ability to take a bonus feat at 1st level instead of using hero points) can result in the players still not being challenged by the vanilla setup. For all I know, the players may not be good at optimizing their own characters, let alone co-operating to optimize the group, so the GM would have to make that assessment, which may be difficult given he's a first-time GM.
10-point buy, average HP after 1st, low magic, low wealth, no hero points and you probably don't even need to scale encounters. 1st level will probably be ridiculously easy, but it should scale fairly well beyond that.You should never run below 15 point buy. Most classes that aren't full casters are completely crippled below this level. The harshest character build rules I'd suggest is mandating the use of the elite NPC array, which is 15 point buy equivalent.
If your goal is to make half the players walk out, though, it may work for that.
I'm not sure I agree with that sentiment as I've participated in a 10-point game with 7 players before and it wasn't that bad (the game didn't last very long because it was nearly impossible to get all 7 of us and the GM to co-ordinate our schedules being that we're all adults with GFs/wives and some w/ children), although it's a fair criticism. With a 10-point buy, players need to make sure they're optimizing their character for the role they are going to play and roles within the party need to be clearly defined with little overlap.
We know Adventure Paths are designed for four characters using 15 points to buy abilities and medium progression, so my thought process is, if you're going to use 8 PCs, it's far easier and far less time-consuming on a GM, especially a first-time GM, to reduce the power of the PCs than it is to scale up the encounters. Without knowing his players, I just don't know where that balance is. My suggestion is based on what I believe would make it challenging for a well-configured party played by experienced players.
If his players aren't particularly good at optimizing and there's lots of overlap in party roles, the halving of experience via double the players could take care of the problem itself as PCs would be approximately 2 levels behind at the end of each book along with half wealth. First level, though, will still be a walk in the park.
10-point buy, average HP after 1st, low magic, low wealth, no hero points and you probably don't even need to scale encounters. 1st level will probably be ridiculously easy, but it should scale fairly well beyond that.You should never run below 15 point buy. Most classes that aren't full casters are completely crippled below this level. The harshest character build rules I'd suggest is mandating the use of the elite NPC array, which is 15 point buy equivalent.
If your goal is to make half the players walk out, though, it may work for that.
And the LAST thing you want in a large party is to force players into all making Tier 1 casters.
You could do a tiered system with 15, 17 & 20 for full, half & non casters.
I'd also suggest that no bonus points for dropping a stat below 8.
I'd advise tweaking the monster side of things rather than imposing a bunch of unusual restrictions on the player side.
I guess you might try to make the monsters last a little longer so that every PC has a better chance of getting to do something "interesting" each fight. To that end boosting monster HP could actually be pretty useful. While increasing the number of monsters will work great for some encounters it can also make the monster turns take a lot longer and clog up the battle map. It might be better sometimes to apply the advanced and or giant templates instead.
If you're going to add extra monsters it might be better to use creatures with viable ranged or area attacks instead of just more melee mooks. Archers and spellcasters can hurt PCs in the back of the party, and having the PCs hurt and endangered seems likely to increase the perceived difficulty of the encounters. It also might help prevent the 1 or 2 PCs up front from getting obliterated by mobs of melee monsters.
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The tricky part isn't JUST the NPC issue...it's also the treasure one. Kingmaker allows gobs of time for crafting for example. If you don't increase treasure, your gonna have players get runned over at higher levels because they just can't compete. If you increase the treasure to double and they craft...well...the game will kinda break.
increasing the number of monsters is generally better than doubling a single monster's HP or increasing its stats.
If the party is around level 5 and the encounter calls for three CR 7 monsters, it could be an actual challenge for a party of 4 players. A party of 8 players, however, would get 5 more turns per round than the monsters to heal, buff, position, deal damage, etc. It makes it far more challenging to instead double the number of enemies at the given CR than by simply giving each monster 40 or 50 more hitpoints. Those 40 or 50 extra hitpoints will be eaten up in the course of a round or two (at most), on top of the fact that in any given round only 3 of the 8 players would actually be getting attacked (assuming the monsters each focus on one PC per round, which is usually the easiest way to run an encounter).
Three more monsters, however, would mean that 6 out of 8 PCs could be engaged at any given time, which makes the encounter more meaningful for the endangered PCs as opposed to just sitting around a table for a turn every half hour while 3 slightly more difficult monsters get methodically whittled away with no sense of risk.
I've been running a KM game with 7 people…and it's my first time GMing. (It's been interesting to say the least. There are two animal companions and a bonded horse in the mix too.)
Definitely check out the community-made 6-player conversions—they'll help you get thinking about how you might want to make it happen. About halfway through the third book I decided to run them a level below baseline (i.e. they're going to fight the BBEG of book three at level 8, not level 9). It hasn't been a problem as of yet.
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This topic has been fairly beat to death so I will only add a few comments:
- initiative tracker/cards. Necessity.
- Limit combat turn times, like 30 sec each. If you cant get it done, you get skipped.
- Use swarms, minions, etc. All your NPCs get outnumbered otherwise.
- Crosstalk at the table has to be kept at a minimum or you will lose your mind.
- Use a 15 pt buy or better yet elite stat array. 25pt buys or worse yet rolls will make it incredibly difficult to desing challenging encounters that are not potentially TPKs with a large group. In fact, most challenging encounters run the likelihood that 1-3 people will die or be very close.
- Limit magic item crafting by the group.