Goblin Squad Member
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I'll start. Using the PO alignment system, I would describe Han Solo as...
started Chaotic Neutral. Performed enough "good" deeds in episode 4 to move up to Chaotic Good. Joined the Rebellion and participated in enough organized "lawful" rebellion activities to be a "general" by episode 5, but disregarded his orders to escape Hoth so I would think he would settle at Neutral Good in the Pathfinder Online system.
Agree?
What is another good example?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Not touching Batman. he is by all accounts insane and has so many different writers it's impossible to tie him down.
James Bond I see as Lawful Evil. He constantly kills people who have bounties placed on them by his government, allows a fellow agent to die (under orders) to keep perusing a target, and sees women as disposable pleasures, all in the name of the greater good of his nation.
I am interested to see what you guys think batman is.
Heh, that's a tough one. He fights evil so he can't be evil. I would think his actions more lawful then chaotic, but that's somewhat subjective and I'm sure others will have different opinions. His methods are unorthodox and not really in keeping with LG so. That puts him in the LN bracket. But honestly that seems limited and doesn't really feel right. He doesn't flip between good and evil so you really can't call him CN, but he's too dark to be called CG.
That's a difficult one to nail down! I gotta go with LN.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Not touching Batman. he is by all accounts insane and has so many different writers it's impossible to tie him down.
James Bond I see as Lawful Evil. He constantly kills people who have bounties placed on them by his government, allows a fellow agent to die (under orders) to keep perusing a target, and sees women as disposable pleasures, all in the name of the greater good of his nation.
WOW! I never thought of it. I don't think his actions are "evil." Killing to save lives is not evil. Every soldier would be considered evil then. I think Lawful Neutral.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am interested to see what you guys think batman is.Heh, that's a tough one. He fights evil so he can't be evil. I would think his actions more lawful then chaotic, but that's somewhat subjective and I'm sure others will have different opinions. His methods are unorthodox and not really in keeping with LG so. That puts him in the LN bracket. But honestly that seems limited and doesn't really feel right. He doesn't flip between good and evil so you really can't call him CN, but he's too dark to be called CG.
That's a difficult one to nail down! I gotta go with LN.
For batman, start with the Good-Neutral-Evil axis. He is not evil. he is not neutral to evil acts. So he must be on the good axis. I have a hard time with the Lawful-Neutral-Chaotic axis (see my other thread lol).
So I say Batman is good, but L/N/C I don't know...
I like how this subforum has basically caused a revival of the old alignment debates. It's a little surreal.
Lawfuls don't so much have a moral code as just a code, period. The Joker's code is basically defiance of order, so I think he's got a loophole.
In order for someone to be Lawful, it's my opinion that he has to allow his code to control him. Which is probably the cause of that adjacent "I think Lawful Good is a paradox, help me" thread. The character has to value Law about as much as he values Good. This may be because he feels the Law is the best route to Good, of course.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have always had a problem with the "he has his own moral code and sticks with it" argument for lawful. The joker has his own moral code and he sticks to it. No one would ever call him lawful.
How would you feel about Dexter Morgan then? He obviously breaks the law to feed his murder addiction, but his own code of who to kill and don't get caught make him more lawful by game terms than anyone I can think of. And he fully obeys and enforces the laws of the land except where they conflict with his own code. Evil, but Lawful.
I don't think "don't get caught" qualifies as a code, but I otherwise agree with you, Imbicatus. Though I've never really seen that show.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't think "don't get caught" qualifies as a code, but I otherwise agree with you, Imbicatus. Though I've never really seen that show.
In the show, he follows "The code of Harry", a set of rules handed down by his stepfather to keep Dexter safe and to make sure he only went after people who deserved to die when he realized that Dexter was a serial killer waiting to happen.
Rule one is "Don't get caught." In the context of the character's history, it is a code.
Not all Lawful characters follow the law, Phyllain. A paladin in Geb may show some rather unlawful behaviour by that measurement. Vigilantes can be perfectly lawful creatures.
That's what most people do. They then decide which alignment fits based on that character. And since most alignments are very hard to precisely define, that's generally the best technique.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I like how this subforum has basically caused a revival of the old alignment debates. It's a little surreal.
The revival is because the Pathfinder Online will have an alignment system based upon your character actions as you play. Therefore, we need to fully understand the alignment system...
I know, but the discussions never really went anywhere back then, and I have trouble believing we'll resolve anything now. :P
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Goblin Squad Member
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But he murders people, which is clearly against the law. Even if they are guilty in his eyes.
In game, he wouldn't be breaking laws. He would be Lawful Evil, he would self flag with the Assassin flag, and would kill other with the Assassin or Heinous flag, or take bounty contracts to kill someone who killed someone else. His target list would be satisfied, and he wouldn't be breaking laws because the law of the land allows (and encourages) him to do so.
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Goblin Squad Member
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But he murders people, which is clearly against the law. Even if they are guilty in his eyes.In game, he wouldn't be breaking laws. He would be Lawful Evil, he would self flag with the Assassin flag, and would kill other with the Assassin or Heinous flag, or take bounty contracts to kill someone who killed someone else. His target list would be satisfied, and he wouldn't be breaking laws because the law of the land allows (and encourages) him to do so.
WAIT ONE COMBAT STEP!
Are you suggesting in PO that if you assassinate evil players as a bounty hunter fulfilling contracts, (flags the evil players earned for being evil), that you are evil?
Couldn't he also be an Enforcer?
^ No, I think he's just saying that this particular evil character would take that route.
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Goblin Squad Member
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But he murders people, which is clearly against the law. Even if they are guilty in his eyes.In game, he wouldn't be breaking laws. He would be Lawful Evil, he would self flag with the Assassin flag, and would kill other with the Assassin or Heinous flag, or take bounty contracts to kill someone who killed someone else. His target list would be satisfied, and he wouldn't be breaking laws because the law of the land allows (and encourages) him to do so.WAIT ONE COMBAT STEP!
Are you suggesting in PO that if you assassinate evil players as a bounty hunter fulfilling contracts, (flags the evil players earned for being evil), that you are evil?
It already been stated in the dev blogs that you still lose good evil for killing someone on a bounty. You don't loose as much if the target is evil, but if you take a bounty you are killing someone for money. Not a good act.
Phyllain, might wanna reread the thread title. The idea is that we're applying this system to those characters. ;P
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Goblin Squad Member
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From Screaming For Vengeance in The Bounties and Death Curses section:
In addition to the cash reward, bounty hunters get some other benefits. As noted above, gaining the Attacker flag is not chaotic if you got it from attacking a bounty target (though it might still be a crime where you are, and you will still lose good and reputation if you kill the target, relative to the target's own alignment and reputation). More importantly, if the target is online, the player with the bounty gains a limited ability to track him or her, which can improve if the hunter trains certain tracking feats.
But the worlds they live in do not run on the PFO alignment system. If you want to just categorize them based on the ordinary Pathfinder alignment system, maybe you should head to another subforum. :P
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have two characters to talk about, and one question I ask my students when I want to get them thinking.
The Incredible Hulk = alignment would be Chaotic Good
Bugs Bunny = Alignment ?
Here is the question:
Who would win in a fight, every time, between The Hulk and Bugs Bunny? Explain your answer...
Bugs Bunny is Chaotic Neutral. He doesn't go after someone unless they go after them, but when he's threatened, he can get just plain mean.
But that's me talking as an Elmer Fudd sympathizer. ;D
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have two characters to talk about, and one question I ask my students when I want to get them thinking.
The Incredible Hulk = alignment would be Chaotic Good
Bugs Bunny = Alignment ?
Here is the question:
Who would win in a fight, every time, between The Hulk and Bugs Bunny? Explain your answer...
Bugs Bunny or neither.
For the following reasons:
1) Bugs Bunny has the law of Acme on his side. In other words, he can survive anything. The Hulk can punch or stomp Bugs all day long and Bugs will just look like a pancake till he can find a tyre pump. This assumes that particularly gruesome or creative methods of murder (quartering for example) get stopped by the amazing elasticity of Bugs' body.
2) Staying power (related to the previous point). Bugs can outlast the Hulk. In most versions of the Hulk, he tires out after a certain point and turns back into Bruce Banner. So all Bugs' has to do is wait.
3) Wisecracking. The Hulk is, in most versions, much more primal. Even child-like. He also usually just wants to be left alone and generally avoids hurting innocents directly (collateral damage aside). Bugs' tends to avoid hunting and/or being directly aggressive. Hes usually a deadpan snarker who frustrates his opponents by just avoiding them and turning everything they do into a joke. However, he can and does play pranks on people. So this can play out in one of two ways:
3a) Bugs Bunny is harmlessly funny and friendly. This could calm the Hulk down (more 'child-like' state of mind could be amused) and revert him to Banner. Therefore Bugs Bunny wins.
3b) Bugs Bunny is a prankster which annoys the Hulk and tries to squash Bugs. Bugs is amused by this, keeps taunting the Hulk which makes him angrier and thus continues his 'Hulk-state' for more smashing. In the meantime Bugs continually avoids and/or absorbs the punishment. This continues indefinitely. Therefore neither wins and they're stuck in a loop. (this assumes that with infinitely generated rage, the Hulk would never tire and continue his Hulk-state indefinitely. If this is not the case (Im hazy on this one, lore-wise), then point 3b is invalid and would revert to a case of Bugs winning by endurance)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Bugs Bunny is Chaotic Neutral. He doesn't go after someone unless they go after them, but when he's threatened, he can get just plain mean.
But that's me talking as an Elmer Fudd sympathizer. ;D
Sympathiser or not, I agree with your assessment. Bugs Bunny is definitely Chaotic Neutral.
And I agree with Bluddwolf that Hulk is CG in most incarnations.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Here's one I've been thinking of lately: Byakuren Hijiri.
She starts out at true neutral, only helping the local fey and outsiders in exchange for learning how to become immortal. As with all such stories she gets more than she bargained for, she grows to care for them as people to the point of making it her life's work to integrate them into society. She's now so neutral good the Touhou fandom compare her to Jesus.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Here's one I've been thinking of lately: Byakuren Hijiri.
She starts out at true neutral, only helping the local fey and outsiders in exchange for learning how to become immortal. As with all such stories she gets more than she bargained for, she grows to care for them as people to the point of making it her life's work to integrate them into society. She's now so neutral good the Touhou fandom compare her to Jesus.
Jesus..... CG?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have two characters to talk about, and one question I ask my students when I want to get them thinking.
The Incredible Hulk = alignment would be Chaotic Good
Bugs Bunny = Alignment ?
Here is the question:
Who would win in a fight, every time, between The Hulk and Bugs Bunny? Explain your answer...
I would say Bugs Bunny would get bored of fighting Hulk after getting his body pounded and twisted in so many ways at some point sooner or later and hop away leaving Hulk dumbfounded...
Wow that was a lot of writing. You have it partially correct,
Um, why did you ask if you "knew" the answer? Why act like it's something you're genuinely curious about?
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Goblin Squad Member
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In PFO terms...
Han Solo would likely be adjucated as LG by the system. He starts out a Criminal who does initiate PvP and kill people (e.g "Han shot first.") and commit crimes. However, MUCH time passes where he doesn't commit such actions (thus AUTOMATICALY goes up both the Good and Law axes), doesn't commit crimes, and only engages in PvP in the context of War (which doesn't result in shifts)
Batman would likely be adjucated CG. As he is CONSTANTLY breaking the law of his realm (thus earning the <Criminal> tag) and CONSTANTLY initiating PvP against enemies, even if they are generaly low rep and Evil themselves...the volume of incidents is going to eventualy add up. Thus he's getting ALOT of Chaotic Shifts...However he never kills, thus no Evil shifts.
Robin Hood (another example) would likely be adjucated CE. He flags as an Outlaw and often offers and accepts SAD's (chaotic shifts). However he also very frequently INITIATES PvP against Prince Johns men (attacks from hiding - thus more chaotic shifts for Attacker) and kills them (Evil shifts for killing) and this really couldn't be considered War as he is of the same Kingdom as they....he might even be subject to a <Betrayer> flag.
The Emperor from Star Wars would likely be adjucated as LG, as he pretty much never engages in PvP himself and doesn't commit any crimes (He IS the Emperor, after all, so gets to set the Laws of his own Empire)
Note this is NOT how I would adjucate these individuals Alignments in a PnP Campaign...just how I see PFO's system adjucating them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The Emperor from Star Wars would likely be adjucated as LG, as he pretty much never engages in PvP himself and doesn't commit any crimes (He IS the Emperor, after all, so gets to set the Laws of his own Empire)
He's be LE in game terms using all six films and EU. He has gained the betrayer flag multiple times by backstabbing his master (Darth Plageous), the Separatists, His Apprentices (Dooku, Vader), and the Jedi. He gets the Heinous flag almost constantly due to slavery (The clones, Wookies), and likely the Death Star (If killing an entire planet doesn't give you heinous nothing will.) I'd also say that the Force Lightning he uses has an [evil] descriptor since it seems to cause as much pain as a symbol of pain as well as direct damage, so he would be getting evil points every time he uses it.
Grumpy, the shift to Law for non-chaotic behaviour is strictly optional. People who want to be Chaotic will disable it. Even if the player chooses to use it, it's supposed to be extremely slow, and we don't know that the same shift applies to Good at all. Your criticism is about a couple weeks out of date. ;P
Oh, also, Robin Hood is obviously a Crusader, so he should be fine.
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Goblin Squad Member
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He's be LE in game terms using all six films and EU. He has gained the betrayer flag multiple times by backstabbing his master (Darth Plageous), the Separatists, His Apprentices (Dooku, Vader), and the Jedi. He gets the Heinous flag almost constantly due to slavery (The clones, Wookies), and likely the Death Star (If killing an entire planet doesn't give you heinous nothing will.) I'd also say that the Force Lightning he uses has an [evil] descriptor since it seems to cause as much pain as a symbol of pain as well as direct damage, so he would be getting evil points every time he uses it.
The Emperor from Star Wars would likely be adjucated as LG, as he pretty much never engages in PvP himself and doesn't commit any crimes (He IS the Emperor, after all, so gets to set the Laws of his own Empire)
Nothing from the earlier films counts (remember, your alignment AUTOMATICALY goes up both axes over time...a months game time brings you from lowest point to highest point if you do nothing during it). The PFO system doesn't adjucate shifts for ORDERS you give, just things you do DIRECTLY...and everything in the last 3 films is done in the context of War (where no shifts apply).
I don't believe Stormtroopers properly classify as "slaves"....Wookies might, although that's not actualy in the Films just the EU...I'm pretty much going by the films as if we went with all Batman stuff outside the films it gets pretty crazy too.
So far the only spells PFO adjucates as Evil is Create Undead...maybe they'll add more later, but that's how things stand now.
So sorry...PFO systemd adjucate him as LG by thier currently described mechanics.
Note that's NOT what I think his Alignment actualy SHOULD be (I think you pretty much have the right of it) just how the currently described mechanics would have him.
Possibly if you go outside the films and into the EU (i.e. the "slaves") that would change.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Grumpy, the shift to Law for non-chaotic behaviour is strictly optional. People who want to be Chaotic will disable it. Even if the player chooses to use it, it's supposed to be extremely slow, and we don't know that the same shift applies to Good at all. Your criticism is about a couple weeks out of date. ;P
Oh, also, Robin Hood is obviously a Crusader, so he should be fine.
Yes, I agree...that people can prevent themselves shifting UP the Axes, IF they want to do so. However, I suspect the "Emperor" (and generaly a fair number truely Evil villians) would WANT to present themselves as LG....and would actualy be adjucated as such by PFO as long as they were simply giving orders and not doing things directly themselves.
P.S. Strictly speaking, Robin Hood (if you follow the Costner movie) gave up being a Crusader when he came home from the Holy Lands. If you follow the literature, Robin Hood was never a Crusader..he never went to the Holy Lands... the movie borrowed that bit from the character Ivanhoe in Sir Walter Scott's novel ;)
P.P.S. Same automatic shift applies to both axes, they made that quite clear.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm pretty sure there was no automatic gain towards good, only law. Good can be gained by doing PvE things, but not doing nothing.
As for the evil spell descriptor, per the PRD:
Symbol of Pain School necromancy [evil]
Since Luke is pretty racked with pain in RotJ, I think it's fair to count Force Lightning as and evil spell as it combines damage with the effect of a spell with the Evil descriptor.
Yes, I agree...that people can prevent themselves shifting UP the Axes, IF they want to do so. However, I suspect the "Emperor" (and generaly a fair number truely Evil villians) would WANT to present themselves as LG....and would actualy be adjucated as such by PFO as long as they were simply giving orders and not doing things directly themselves.
Ah, I see. Makes sense.
P.S. Strictly speaking, Robin Hood (if you follow the Costner movie) gave up being a Crusader when he came home from the Holy Lands.
Crusader is a flag, not just a profession. ;P
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hulk would pound Bugs flat. Bugs then turns to the 4th wall and says "Of course you know, THIS mean WAR!" Bugs wins by default after causing Hulk to be "killed" multiple times by cartoon physics.
We have a winner!!!!
Bugs Bunny would win every time because the Hulk must live within the confines of real world physics, and Bugs Bunny does not.
Bugs can pull a pencil out of his pocket and erase the Hulk's arms and legs; Or he can fight the Hulk underwater or in space or the center of a black hole. Cartoon physics is the key.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am interested to see what you guys think batman is.
Wayne's Law: "As a discussion of alignment grows longer, the probability of a comparison between every possible alignment and Batman approaches 1.
Too many versions, too many writers, and too many interpretations of alignment. That's the alignment system, though. In a tabletop campaign, alignment functions as the GM says it does. If your GM thinks doing evil actions to evil people somehow makes you 'good', then that's reality in their world. In PFO, the code and the dev team behind it are the GM. Comparisons to real-world examples and other media are ultimately irrelevant.
Bugs Bunny would win every time because the Hulk must live within the confines of real world physics, and Bugs Bunny does not.
Real-world physics make the Hulk impossible in the first place. Where does all that extra body mass come from, and where does it go once the transformation is over? Are gamma rays code for 'magic'?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am interested to see what you guys think batman is.
Batman is quintessential Chaotic Good. he is usually the 2nd example of chaotic good always given after Robin Hood. Batman is a better example for PFO because at different times he has shifted depending on the plotline. He has shifted to Nuetral Good and Chaotic Nuetral on many occasions, but Batman at his core, is Chaotic Good.