The best chance this world has for truly universal economic success is The Singularity predicted by Ray Kurzweil.
Many of us just might live to see it. If they ever work out cheap nuclear fusion, that will be the key. Sometimes I think that's what our world leaders are banking on. Because they sure aren't managing the resources we have responsibly.
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Ciretose, last time I checked, 2008 was exactly five years ago.
Also, again as you yourself pointed out, the latest job losses in the public sector are mostly due to the sequester. When that ends you'll see an uptick.
Yes, I admit it, things in this economy have been so horrible for the last five years that I did, in fact, interpret greatly reduced job loss as job growth. You got me there.
I know. You said 5 years ago, so I found statistics that reflected the last 5 years.
Then you said ten...
On target (or tangent) the current job losses in the federal government are due to the sequester. The state and local job losses were occurring earlier, but were hidden by stimulus hiring, such as the census stuff.
As that dried up, the actual losses were revealed. What the numbers indicate is that as a percentage of total job, public sector jobs have been hit about as hard as private sector jobs.
Anecdotally in my area they are not only not hiring, but have much, much higher expectations for experience than they did when I was entering the job market 10 to 15 years ago.
Which was my point. If all goes according to plan my nice two public sector income family that came from fairly close to poverty will be able to save enough to have a million dollars ish at retirement.
Now where we are at after healthcare costs kick in during retirement...that may only be enough money to not be a specific burden on our kids.
I grew up the kid of divorced teen parents. My mom had a 3 room apartment if you counted the bathroom. Not 3 bedrooms. 3 rooms.
Dad had a trailer, or "Mobile Home" if you want to be polite. By all statistics I should not be in a near 300k appraised home (bought for 200k at the bottom of the bubble) making a combined household income in excess of 100,000.
I am only in this position because of government assistance. Student Loans, K-12, Americorp, not to mention roads, sewage, etc...
And I'm watching the next generation not have access to a lot of the things that got me out of poverty, and even more of it being cut.
The sequester has been killing programs like JobCorp, which is one of the best programs for anyone trying to get out of poverty. And while a leash needs to put on university costs skyrocketing, student loans are a major problem that I didn't really have. I had about 14k when I graduated, deferred while I was in Americorp which gave me a job skill set that got me a job that let me pay that off in a few years.
Now it's a small mortgage payment for some people.
My point is this. If you start off in an upper middle class family, it isn't hard with a little bit of effort to become a millionaire if that is your goal. You are starting off with hella advantages.
And even if you don't, you can get there, or could when I was coming up 10 to 15 years ago.
Now...it's not getting easier.
I am not a millionaire because world class GMs are not paid the same amount of money as world class footballers..
:-p
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The best chance this world has for truly universal economic success is The Singularity predicted by Ray Kurzweil.
Many of us just might live to see it. If they ever work out cheap nuclear fusion, that will be the key. Sometimes I think that's what our world leaders are banking on. Because they sure aren't managing the resources we have responsibly.
Yeah, because so many people out there would be so much better at this job. I am now left wondering why they are not already in power.
Drock, as many, many successful people have said over the years, luck sure seems to be a thing that is strongly related to preparation intersecting with opportunity.
I say again, this thread is an absolute treasure trove of self-justification and class envy.
It's really not that hard to become successful. In some ways you almost have to work NOT to be.
The data do not support your position.
Don't get me wrong—choices do matter. But not as much, it turns out, as much as where you start. From the article: "Parental wealth has an influence above and beyond the three factors that sociologists and economists have traditionally considered in research on social mobility—parental education, income and occupation."
You have been successful in spite of humble beginnings. Great. So have I. Yet many others who worked just as hard, if not harder, than either of us haven't done as well. Frankly, the implication that people who are less successful than you are lazier, dumber, or less capable is insulting. Is FUGM really the message you want to send?
It is. "Class envy" is the red meat thrown out by libertarians, Faux and Friends, etc., to justify the wholesale screwing of the working class. It seems that AD is doing OK, so anyone who isn't just isn't as incredibly smart and hardworking as he is, and is therefore unworthy of the big bucks.
Although, as you point out, those aren't the biggest factors in who does or doesn't get rich.
And even more importantly, from my point of view, even if it was the "incredibly smart and hardworking" who climbed to the top of the pile, that doesn't do anything to make the lives of the vast majority on the bottom any better.
I don't really care if the elite are chosen by strict meritocracy, pure luck or simple inheritance,...
This is the problem we're seeing now. Not enough decent jobs out there. Most people I know don't dream of mansions and limos. They'd just like to have enough security to get by.
If you go straight from HS to minimum wage, you're not going to see a livable income for a very long time. That's just how it is.
I'm totally in favor of raising the minimum wage. An ambitious person might be able to save enough to take a few classes, or at least keep the rent paid.
There are ways to gain the system. One is to find a niche or living situation that benefits your outflow of money. One is to find a job which you are well compensated for with no entry requirements.
I am doing both. Typically I live out of a hotel. I live in South Texas, which is 'frack country.' I started working in the energy exploration field, and quickly went to get a haz-mat endorsement on my license.
When I lived in Illinois two years ago, I was eeking out a 40 hour lifestyle and barely able to make it happen thanks to high taxes.
I live in Texas with a few regulations and fees and no state tax, now. I don't have 1200 a month in outflow, though I do spend more for food. Restaurants don't have shame in hitting me between 15 and 20 dollars a visit.
Still, I have a savings program and when I make x amount in that program per drop every check, I will start looking at land to buy for a set of storage rental units.
This is a viable plan. I'm unmarried with no kids. I'm more interested in being comfy later on. I should be at wealth levels by 60. When you go from 25K a year to 75K a year, you can make a lot of things happen. Things that never would have happened.
I also vote for people who know what the state and federal constitution is. In Illinois, it's a joke to see who can go from 'staunch pro-American person who will fix what's wrong' to 'establishment POS' the quickest. I will never stop praying for meteorites or spaghetti monsters to collapse the Beltway and large parcels of Chicagoland.
Drock, as many, many successful people have said over the years, luck sure seems to be a thing that is strongly related to preparation intersecting with opportunity.
I say again, this thread is an absolute treasure trove of self-justification and class envy.
It's really not that hard to become successful. In some ways you almost have to work NOT to be.
The data do not support your position.
Don't get me wrong—choices do matter. But not as much, it turns out, as much as where you start. From the article: "Parental wealth has an influence above and beyond the three factors that sociologists and economists have traditionally considered in research on social mobility—parental education, income and occupation."
You have been successful in spite of humble beginnings. Great. So have I. Yet many others who worked just as hard, if not harder, than either of us haven't done as well. Frankly, the implication that people who are less successful than you are lazier, dumber, or less capable is insulting. Is FUGM really the message you want to send?
It is. "Class envy" is the red meat thrown out by libertarians, Faux and Friends, etc., to justify the wholesale screwing of the working class. It seems that AD is doing OK, so anyone who isn't just isn't as incredibly smart and hardworking as he is, and is therefore unworthy of the big bucks.
Although, as you point out, those aren't the biggest factors in who does or doesn't get rich.
Expert, I can speak for myself, and have done so. Your attempt to put words in my mouth and motivations in my soul are noted and not appreciated. And my comments were not about the "big bucks" but about becoming comfortable enough not to feel envious or jealous about the success of others.
Although I noted that some people will be envious and jealous of others no matter what they actually achieve. I was speaking more generally about the average person.
You and others on this thread can continue to beat the drum of the evils of free markets and the oceans of "bad luck" that seem to overwhelm so many of the world.
I'll keep telling my kids to work hard, persevere and accept short term pain for long term gain. You can continue to bemoan the "bad luck" that has attacked the innocent masses.
Tell you what, let's check back in 20 years and see which advice has produced the better results, eh?
I'm hoping to get 1,000,000 people to send me 1 dollar each.
However, I project that it will require approximately $999,999.99 to get the advertising necessary to generate the interest to cause all of those people to send in their $1.
So...
Money cannot buy happiness.
.
Money buys nuts. Nuts are happiness.
money = nuts
nuts = happiness
ergo
money = happines
QED
Money may not buy happiness, but I have recently discovered it makes misery much more comfortable. And it can buy Beyond: Two Souls, which happiness can't do.
I can speak for myself, too. Winning the birth lottery is still the statistically best way to wealth.
Where did I imply that hard work and perseverance didn't improve your odds? They simply aren't a guarantee, especially in the last few decades.
And you're still playing the class envy violin. "Bad luck" means a crappy economy with little to no chance for meaningful advancement for the majority. You can be as ambitious as Madonna, if you like. If there's nothing there for you to aim at, you're stuck.
You may know your business better than anybody, but the boss's son will be giving you orders soon enough.
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Drock, as many, many successful people have said over the years, luck sure seems to be a thing that is strongly related to preparation intersecting with opportunity.
I say again, this thread is an absolute treasure trove of self-justification and class envy.
It's really not that hard to become successful. In some ways you almost have to work NOT to be.
The data do not support your position.
Don't get me wrong—choices do matter. But not as much, it turns out, as much as where you start. From the article: "Parental wealth has an influence above and beyond the three factors that sociologists and economists have traditionally considered in research on social mobility—parental education, income and occupation."
You have been successful in spite of humble beginnings. Great. So have I. Yet many others who worked just as hard, if not harder, than either of us haven't done as well. Frankly, the implication that people who are less successful than you are lazier, dumber, or less capable is insulting. Is FUGM really the message you want to send?
It is. "Class envy" is the red meat thrown out by libertarians, Faux and Friends, etc., to justify the wholesale screwing of the working class. It seems that AD is doing OK, so anyone who isn't just isn't as incredibly smart and hardworking as he is, and is therefore unworthy of the big bucks.
Although, as you point out, those aren't the biggest factors in who does or doesn't get rich.
Expert, I can speak for myself, and have done so. Your attempt to put words in my mouth and motivations in my soul are noted and not appreciated. And my comments were not about the "big bucks" but about becoming comfortable enough not to feel envious or jealous about the success of others.
Although I noted that some people will be envious and jealous of others no matter what they actually achieve. I was speaking more generally about the average person.
You and others on this thread can continue to beat the drum of the evils of free markets and the oceans of "bad luck" that seem to overwhelm so many of the world.
I'll keep telling my kids to work hard, persevere and accept short term pain for long term gain. You can continue to bemoan the "bad luck" that has attacked the innocent masses.
Tell you what, let's check back in 20 years and see which advice has produced the better results, eh?
Hard work is its own reward and I consider it a virtue. I personally am working two jobs right now. But you're kidding yourself if you think it will make your kids rich in a world where CEOs assign their own worth in dollars and make decisions to better their own financial situations unchecked and at the expense of the very companies for which they purport to work.
Current distribution of wealth simply IS the greatest issue at play in the market, and it is poison to same. Nobody is worth five yachts, four mansions, and their own private island in the Bahamas. There is just no real reason to need all of that stuff. But when the boss gets to decide that there should be no ceiling to his salary, even if it means laying off every American worker and moving the entire business overseas... well, the results speak for themselves.
And unless your kids are willing to put thousands out of work, and learn Chinese, and spend half their lives on airplanes, they are not going to be any better off in 20 years than the rest of us.
The market is not evil. But it is run by largely greedy men. And what they have done is pretty wrongheaded and crappy. In fact, I'd say what many of them have done is evil. Hard work should pay off. For many of us it doesn't. Because capitalism is great fun when you want to buy an XBox. We all love it for some things. But it's a deeply flawed system, easily manipulated and twisted by the powerful and the rich. And no sane person can deny that.
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Hard work is not the path to success. Reading the tea leaves is the path to success.
I wasn't kidding about being on a path to 6 (or more) figures working for a fortune 500 medical supply company. Only a conscious kept me from from that kind of income.
Not that I'm doing badly in my current career.
Hard work leading to wealth is the myth fed to us by people who are wealthy and want us to keep working hard for them to get wealthier.
It's smart. That is how they got rich...well...the ones who didn't just inherit and maintain.
I have been looking at this all wrong!
I feel like a fool. While I personally will be retiring in a few years, and I hope to hang onto my current job until then, my two kids are currently struggling to get their own lives started.
And many of YOU PEOPLE are either the people, or are representative of the people THEY WILL BE COMPETING with for jobs and promotions.
So FORGET what I said about hard work, perseverance and short term pain! That's all total bourgeoisie bullshit! You are on to me man, heh, you caught me. It's all a scam. Hard work never mattered. Hell you all work tons harder than you should have to. In fact you should all take a break, relax, kick back and pat yourself on the back.
If you have a job, you need a raise. Go tell your boss you work too hard for the money, and deserve more. It's true isn't it!? So why not just be honest about it? And you probably need more time off too while you're at it.
Please, please, totally forget all my silly, old-fashioned nonsense about hard work, learning new skills and looking for more challenging job assignments. It's pure bunk. You know it. Heck you've lectured me about it for several days now.
You win.
I haven't felt this good about my kids prospects in a long, long time.
Thanks to everyone.
I have been looking at this all wrong!
I feel like a fool. While I personally will be retiring in a few years, and I hope to hang onto my current job until then, my two kids are currently struggling to get their own lives started.
And many of YOU PEOPLE are either the people, or are representative of the people THEY WILL BE COMPETING with for jobs and promotions.
So FORGET what I said about hard work, perseverance and short term pain! That's all total bourgeoisie b*+##!!$! You are on to me man, heh, you caught me. It's all a scam. Hard work never mattered. Hell you all work tons harder than you should have to. In fact you should all take a break, relax, kick back and pat yourself on the back.
If you have a job, you need a raise. Go tell your boss you work too hard for the money, and deserve more. It's true isn't it!? So why not just be honest about it? And you probably need more time off too while you're at it.
Please, please, totally forget all my silly, old-fashioned nonsense about hard work, learning new skills and looking for more challenging job assignments. It's pure bunk. You know it. Heck you've lectured me about it for several days now.
You win.
I haven't felt this good about my kids prospects in a long, long time.
Thanks to everyone.
I accept your concession and will add this: Your kids have a decent shot at a middle class income. You clearly don't have the connections to do any more for them.
If they can read the tea leaves, and have the capital, they can do better. Perhaps they'll rise to the investor class. Maybe they'll be charming enough to be accepted at the country club. Who knows?
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Looking for new skills is good advice. Always doing the job you are given to the best of your abilities because no job is beneath you and your actions are your resume is good advice.
The way to getting rich is through hard work...that's just fairy tale stuff.
The way to get rich is to set "Getting Rich" as your goal and then constantly look for opportunities to forward that goal.
In life, you tend toward the direction you point.
Looking for new skills is good advice. Always doing the job you are given to the best of your abilities because no job is beneath you and your actions are your resume is good advice.
The way to getting rich is through hard work...that's just fairy tale stuff.
The way to get rich is to set "Getting Rich" as your goal and then constantly look for opportunities to forward that goal.
In life, you tend toward the direction you point.
Aw, c'mon ciretose, don't pretend that such things are important. It's not what you know it's who you know. Even if these poor unfortunates spend three years pursuing a masters degree, that accounting job will still go to the boss's cousin. You know it. We all know it. Why get their hopes up, just so they can be dashed on the rocks of corporate greed and nepotism?
Don't listen to ciretose. He's part of the scam, man.
Mitt Romney sleeps well at night, blissfully unaffected by the real human turmoil he caused to make his millions.
thejeff, I totally, completely, sincerely promise you from the bottom of my heart.
I. Am. Not. Joking.
These people have woken me up about the modern workforce.
thejeff, I totally, completely, sincerely promise you from the bottom of my heart.
I. Am. Not. Joking.
These people have woken me up about the modern workforce.
"These people," then, are the problem. There's nothing else at play.
Kool aid.
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Aw, c'mon ciretose, don't pretend that such things are important. It's not what you know it's who you know. Even if these poor unfortunates spend three years pursuing a masters degree, that accounting job will still go to the boss's cousin. You know it. We all know it. Why get their hopes up, just so they can be dashed on the rocks of corporate greed and nepotism?
Don't listen to ciretose. He's part of the scam, man.
I got the job at Americorp thanks to my college degree. The job at Americorp got me working with probation officers who saw my work ethic and recommended me to their boss, who hired me and kept me on after the contractual period because of the work ethic.
Other people in the office were hired because they had family who worked in the office.
In that county, the Judge had the same last name as the Grocery Store Chain and all of the county commissioners had the same last name as one store or another in the county.
My kid is going to private school, specifically because I know what having connections means. I didn't have them, so I had to work harder than others to prove myself, and certain doors were not work trying to knock on.
I'm in the process of making connections for my career and hopefully through them make it easier for my kids.
It is naive to think the world works otherwise.
Because that Job at Americorp no longer exists. Budget cuts. 18k a year was to much.
thejeff, I totally, completely, sincerely promise you from the bottom of my heart.
I. Am. Not. Joking.
These people have woken me up about the modern workforce.
"These people," then, are the problem. There's nothing else at play.
Kool aid.
Yep, and you are totally one of them "expert." But don't letme stop you! Indeed, accelerate your crusade! The more workers who believe hard work is for saps, the better! I am totally rooting for you and everyone who has attacked me for having the gall to advise people to work hard. I can assure you, I will no longer rebut you. The more people you convince, the better for me and my family.
You go expert!
Well, I think you're completely mistaken about what people here are saying.thejeff, I totally, completely, sincerely promise you from the bottom of my heart.
I. Am. Not. Joking.
These people have woken me up about the modern workforce.
Of course the reverse of that is totally impossibpe though..
You win. You won the internet. The only reason peeople succeed is luck and to suggest otherwise is beyond the pale. I get it. No more argument here.
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thejeff, I totally, completely, sincerely promise you from the bottom of my heart.
I. Am. Not. Joking.
These people have woken me up about the modern workforce.
"These people," then, are the problem. There's nothing else at play.
Kool aid.
Yep, and you are totally one of them "expert." But don't letme stop you! Indeed, accelerate your crusade! The more workers who believe hard work is for saps, the better! I am totally rooting for you and everyone who has attacked me for having the gall to advise people to work hard. I can assure you, I will no longer rebut you. The more people you convince, the better for me and my family.
You go expert!
Work ethic means something. It is a skill you can use to demonstrate value.
Simply working hard...not so much.
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Well, I think you're completely mistaken about what people here are saying.thejeff, I totally, completely, sincerely promise you from the bottom of my heart.
I. Am. Not. Joking.
These people have woken me up about the modern workforce.
Of course the reverse of that is totally impossibpe though..
You win. You won the internet. The only reason peeople succeed is luck and to suggest otherwise is beyond the pale. I get it. No more argument here.
I salute the quality of the hyperbolic stance, but it doesn't really reflect the nuance of the discussion.
But you know that AD, you aren't stupid.
thejeff, I totally, completely, sincerely promise you from the bottom of my heart.
I. Am. Not. Joking.
These people have woken me up about the modern workforce.
"These people," then, are the problem. There's nothing else at play.
Kool aid.
Yep, and you are totally one of them "expert." But don't letme stop you! Indeed, accelerate your crusade! The more workers who believe hard work is for saps, the better! I am totally rooting for you and everyone who has attacked me for having the gall to advise people to work hard. I can assure you, I will no longer rebut you. The more people you convince, the better for me and my family.
You go expert!
Work ethic means something. It is a skill you can use to demonstrate value.
Simply working hard...not so much.
Ah geez, ciretose, now you are suggesting that people should work hard AND smart. Where the hell do you get off suggesting these poor unfortunates aren't working smart enough now? That's just adding insult to injury.
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Ah geez, ciretose, now you are suggesting that people should work hard AND smart. Where the hell do you get off suggesting these poor unfortunates aren't working smart enough now? That's just adding insult to injury.
Unless you know people, it's really the best option you have.
If you know people, you don't really need to work hard. You just need to stay in good graces of the people you know.
I'm hoping to go from trailer trash to upper middle class in a generation so my kids can take the next step. I'm pretty much the only person I know who has done that much, unless you count rappers and athletes.
And I think it is kind of sad the 18k a year job I did for almost two years to even get considered for a mid level government job not only got cut, but probably wouldn't be enough anymore.
ciretose, I grew up with five siblinngs in a Silver Stream trailor until my dad finally managed to buy a sngle-wide and we built our own A-frame to live in. Which burned down.
Ah well, we're such a couple of lucky ducks you and I
Other posters have talked about how sensitive they are to this topic. Well, so am I, and here is why. I mentioned above somewhere that when my dad moved away because I was "all grown up" at 17, I had two older brothers in jail and one on the run from the law. My oldest brother was in Angola prison. If anyone knows anything about Angola prison, they will understand what that means.
My oldest brother very much took the view of life that he was "unlucky." He was unlucky at school, unlucky at sports, unlucky at love and unlucky at work. I took the approach that you made your own luck. He started selling drugs, I started studying physics. It really is that simple. He made enough money with his drug selling to buy a nice apartment, I lived in a rathole with a drug-addled roommate. He had a fancy car, I had a bicycle.
When he got out of prison, he again talked about his "bad luck." He lost job after job due to his drug addiction. I struggled and scraped and suffered for the seven years it took to graduate, heavily in debt (even then) and got my first job as a programmer at a bank. Just about the time I got that job, my brother got fired from a dream job as a fishing guide for doing cocaine on the job.
Ten years later he was dead. Ten years later I was making over $75K a year.
That's my story. Make of it what you will. Yes I benefitted from a couple of minor pell grants and was able to get some student loans, which I have long since paid back. Other than that the main "good luck" I can claim is that I never got seriously injured or developed any serious disease or health problem. I am grateful for that.
I suppose my story means nothing to anyone who also views their lot in life as mainly being "bad luck." That's fine. I will say that after graduating and getting a good job, my other brother, also going down the "bad luck" path, decided to follow my lead, went to college and got his law degree.
That's why I think this stuff matters.
YMMV
I have not said that. I have never even implied it. If that is what you understand me to be saying then you are completely mistaken.Well, I think you're completely mistaken about what people here are saying.thejeff, I totally, completely, sincerely promise you from the bottom of my heart.
I. Am. Not. Joking.
These people have woken me up about the modern workforce.
Of course the reverse of that is totally impossibpe though..
You win. You won the internet. The only reason peeople succeed is luck and to suggest otherwise is beyond the pale. I get it. No more argument here.
Right back atcha jeff.
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Drock, as many, many successful people have said over the years, luck sure seems to be a thing that is strongly related to preparation intersecting with opportunity.
I say again, this thread is an absolute treasure trove of self-justification and class envy.
It's really not that hard to become successful. In some ways you almost have to work NOT to be.
AD, even if currently successful people honestly believe that success comes from preparation and opportunity (and I guess some hard work), it does not mean AT ALL that preparation, opportunity and hard work will be enough to be successful.
Do not ask those who succeeded. Ask those who failed. You might be surprised to find out that they espoused beliefs similar to yours and that it was still not enough to help them succeed.
Drock, as many, many successful people have said over the years, luck sure seems to be a thing that is strongly related to preparation intersecting with opportunity.
I say again, this thread is an absolute treasure trove of self-justification and class envy.
It's really not that hard to become successful. In some ways you almost have to work NOT to be.
AD, even if currently successful people honestly believe that success comes from preparation and opportunity (and I guess some hard work), it does not mean AT ALL that preparation, opportunity and hard work will be enough to be successful.
Do not ask those who succeeded. Ask those who failed. You might be surprised to find out that they espoused beliefs similar to yours and that it was still not enough to help them succeed.
This is an excellent example of why internet discussions fall apart.
Raven, I never said, nor implied, nor even gave the slightest indication that could be twisted into any version of "preparation, opportunity and hard work will (always, without fail, 100% certainty) lead to success".
What I have said, and believe to be something that ought to be self-evident to anyone who has thought about it, is that hard work greatly, GREATLY increases the odds in your favor.
Here is an example. My daughter was laid off of her job this summer. She was very upset. She is trying to save money to get into a special program and this was a significant setback to her plans. So she came home and we had a long talk about the situation. Finally, towards the end of the conversation, she mentioned that she would have "nothing to do" the following week after her last day.
"Nothing to do?" I asked. "Why, sure you do, you have a job."
"A job?" she replied, confused. "Dad, I just LOST my job."
"No, you lost A job." I said. "You still have a job, you just are temporarily not getting paid for it."
"Oh, really, what is my job then?" she asked.
"Your job is now to find a job, and you should spend as much time and effort on that job as you spend on any job. Meaning you get up in the morning, and you work all day on finding a new job, until you have a new job."
It took her three weeks. But she now has a job she likes better than her old one. She did a LOT of interviews and filled out a TON of applications, and she spent day after day after day doing it. When she was discouraged, I just reminded her that it was just like going to work in terms of time invested and effort spent. And that meant she would keep in the habit of getting up in the morning and doing something that was necessary to advance her goals every day, just as if she was employed.
When she was a little girl she and I once climbed a mountain with some friends. It was a tough, tough climb. We were utterly exhausted. But we kept going. We were ahead of our friends, who were getting discouraged because climbing a mountain can be a series of disappointments as you climb to what looks like the top over and over again, just to realize that the top is still higher. Well, we kept going, and finally, finally we were on the last switchback on the trail to the very top, and we could see the little flag where they kept the sign in sheet where you wrote your name to indicate you made it to the top. We looked down over the edge and could see our friends below us. The wind was howling and they could not hear our shouted words of encouragement, and they were so utterly exhausted and dejected that they didn't even look up once. We watched in utter disbelief as our friends stopped right below us, just a few dozen feet from the final turn to the summit, and went back down.
I reminded her of that when she was discouraged in her job search. I think it's a great life lesson. In every meaningful sense our friends worked just as hard as we did, spent just as much time and effort and dealt with all but one final disappointment before turning back. But we made it and they didn't. And the difference wasn't luck.
Hard work and preparation are important factors in success (which pretty much everyone here has said repeatedly, so pretending otherwise just looks disingenuous).
The point is that the world isn't a perfect meritocracy (fact), and that not everyone who has a bad outcome deserves it (also a fact). Consequently, pontificating about how people who are struggling are only getting what they deserve officially makes one an a@**~@$.
Pretty simple, really.
Hard work and preparation are important factors in success (which pretty much everyone here has said repeatedly, so pretending otherwise just looks disingenuous).
The point is that the world isn't a perfect meritocracy (fact), and that not everyone who has a bad outcome deserves it (also a fact). Consequently, pontificating about how people who are struggling are only getting what they deserve officially makes one an a@*%%%+.
Pretty simple, really.
When you stop pretending that people are pontificating about how people who are struggling are only getting what they deserve, you might realize that the disingenuousness and pontification is flowing both ways.
When you stop pretending that people are pontificating about how people who are struggling are only getting what they deserve...
It's really not that hard to become successful. In some ways you almost have to work NOT to be.
So...not only did they not work hard enough to succeed, but they pretty much had to be trying to fail?
I'll leave determining whether that qualifies as pontificating as a an exercise for the reader.
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The belief that virtuous conduct (and especially hard work) results in success seems to be very deeply ingrained in the US psyche. It has its roots in Protestant ethics. The base idea is that God provides to his faithful (ie, the virtuous people). Thus being rich is not a dubious thing (as it was in Catholicism), but a deserved result of hard work and virtue and ultimately the sign of God's approval.
By extension, this means that successful (and rich) people are supposed to deserve it (ie, are virtuous in the eye of God). And when a successful person is revealed to be a fraud/dishonest person, the backlash is far worse in the US than in many other countries.
Poor people are either not virtuous (and thus unworthy of God' s approval as signified by success and wealth) or they are being tested and will succeed if they keep true to their faith in God (and virtue, and hard work, and so on).
There is a reason that the story of Job is so popular in the US.
Of course, all of this is merely a cultural system of belief no better than any other and not related to hard facts.
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Other posters have talked about how sensitive they are to this topic. Well, so am I, and here is why. I mentioned above somewhere that when my dad moved away because I was "all grown up" at 17, I had two older brothers in jail and one on the run from the law. My oldest brother was in Angola prison. If anyone knows anything about Angola prison, they will understand what that means.
My oldest brother very much took the view of life that he was "unlucky." He was unlucky at school, unlucky at sports, unlucky at love and unlucky at work. I took the approach that you made your own luck. He started selling drugs, I started studying physics. It really is that simple. He made enough money with his drug selling to buy a nice apartment, I lived in a rathole with a drug-addled roommate. He had a fancy car, I had a bicycle.
When he got out of prison, he again talked about his "bad luck." He lost job after job due to his drug addiction. I struggled and scraped and suffered for the seven years it took to graduate, heavily in debt (even then) and got my first job as a programmer at a bank. Just about the time I got that job, my brother got fired from a dream job as a fishing guide for doing cocaine on the job.
Ten years later he was dead. Ten years later I was making over $75K a year.
That's my story. Make of it what you will. Yes I benefitted from a couple of minor pell grants and was able to get some student loans, which I have long since paid back. Other than that the main "good luck" I can claim is that I never got seriously injured or developed any serious disease or health problem. I am grateful for that.
I suppose my story means nothing to anyone who also views their lot in life as mainly being "bad luck." That's fine. I will say that after graduating and getting a good job, my other brother, also going down the "bad luck" path, decided to follow my lead, went to college and got his law degree.
That's why I think this stuff matters.
YMMV
You do realize that the reason I couldn't just have no conscious and make a 6 figure income selling hospitals vastly marked up medical supplies was because I grew up poor, right?
Juvenile Probation officer is me going, "Huh...I'm not better than the the people I grew up with. I just figured out the rules of the game and they didn't."
You can get out of poverty. But if there is no one around to tell you how to do it, it's like showing up at a game where you don't know the rules, you don't have a coach (good parents) or teammates (good connections) and having people say "Why do you suck so much at playing the game?"
More likely than not, you lose.
I was "lucky", relative to those around me. Certainly relative to anyone born outside of the 1st world. And there were many, many points along the way where left turn would have equaled return to the circle of poverty and I just happened to right.
College moved me up the ladder. Student loans paid for that. Americorp moved me up the ladder. That program no longer exists.
I used to send as many kids as I could talk into going to JobCorp, as it is a free program for poor kids that teaches them marketable skills.
Now the aren't accepting for months and months, because of the sequester.
If you are born into wealth, you have a huge advantage in the game. My life is more or less currently dedicated to making sure my kid has a better starting position in the game than I do.
And every day I work with people who have starting positions 100 times worse than I did, and try to teach them how to get to middle class.
And the occasionally spoiled rich kid. Those are the ones that are difficult.
For the record, though, I am not a millennial. I am Generation X.
[Puffs on a doob and continues slackin']
When you stop pretending that people are pontificating about how people who are struggling are only getting what they deserve...It's really not that hard to become successful. In some ways you almost have to work NOT to be.So...not only did they not work hard enough to succeed, but they pretty much had to be trying to fail?
I'll leave determining whether that qualifies as pontificating as a an exercise for the reader.
For the able-bodied, reasonably intelligent emotionally stable person I was talking about bugley, I believe that to be true, when "succeed" was defined, as I did, as being successful enough to have a reasonably secure life. All of my comments here are taking a long-term view. Most people will go through challenging times in their lives now and then. Heck, I sure did. But over time, that steady application of perseverance, hard work and willingness to sacrifice will pay off. Yes, you can call me naive or outdated or whatever, but I still believe that to be true, and all of my long and varied life in multiple job markets has always reinforced that idea.
Now, the current environemnt is tough, that is true. Right now it is harder than it should be, and that is punishing a lot of people who normally would probably be succeeding in a better economy. I can relate having hit the job market in the middle of the 70's stagflation and malaise. But that wll change, and the economy will improve.
Sometimes the best thing to do if you are truly finding the job market in your area to be impossible, is to move. North Dakota is booming and so are many parts of Texas. If you truly want to take a quick step up the economic ladder, learn to weld and move to North Dakota. They are BEGGING for welders in ND right now. And paying them crazy salaries.
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@AD - While I largely agree with the sentiment of most of the post, picking up to move is exactly the problem people are having. The bubble bursting means you can't sell your house (if you have one) and move.
North Dakota has lots of jobs, but no housing. You end up spending as much to get a place to live as you earn. I has a cousin who tried it and said it wasn't worth it.
Texas I have heard is mostly part time work unless you have specific skill sets.
There are ways to get out of poverty. But if you are in poverty, you probably don't know them since the people who raised you didn't know them.