Goblin Squad Member
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I really hope it will take same amount of time to peak as other roles, even if some sort of power reduction can be done on the various aspects.
I don't see how that could be possible, frankly. There is just too much to accomplish. Training rates for comparably powerful skills should be comparable, skill by skill. I don't feel we should in good conscience ask for shorter time for each skill, not if we want it to be a fair game.
Even go as far as specifying your major, that goes at normal rate, then 2nd, 3rd and 4th that are reduced by what ever % you specify for them, adding up to 100%.
I would want to be able to set my major, and part of that has to include the Druid basics. For Druid II, III, and IV selections we should not have to retake the basics, but otherwise each skill should cost just as much time as comparable skills for other classes.
If it takes a decade to get all four so be it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Two paths. Ranged or melee.
Ranged Druid is a second rate nuker but with a strong animal companion. Off heals and caster buffs.
Melee Druid uses wildshape for a second rate dps role and strong animal summoning spells. Off heals with melee buffs.
Combined with the companion or summons each type of druid can match the dps of first rate dps'ers and still have off heals/buffs.
When in doubt stick to Pathfinder. They work well in PnP groups and I don't see any glaring reason to take them in some other drastic direction. Option #4 looks too similar to a WoW Druid for my taste.
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Goblin Squad Member
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#4 seems like a lot of work and a lot of constant balancing, something you stated you wanted to avoid. You're basically making 4 classes. Trying to balance each branch with their counterpart ( fast animal vs. rogue, large vs. fighter, etc) seems like a potential nightmare and fodder for rant material for years to come.
"why should I play a [insert class here] when a Druid can do it just as well" ...may as well create that thread now and sticky it.
This thought occurred to me as well. IE x4 classes = more work on the druid. But actually it might mean more simpler work, if templates of the other 4 are the basis for each of the 4 druid paths?
The key question with #4 is how distinct is it swapping? I assume just the same as other classes swapping eg rogue/wizard and the necessary specialist equipment of each. The point of #4 is that it's similar/same as rogue/cleric etc just with a druid slant of being a hybrid and staying true to the natural/neutral theme, I think is about right?
What I'm aiming at: Is #3 so spell-casting training then flipping on some animal companion and then equiping a mix to manage both - and hoping other players can do similar mixtures (hence #2,3 are too specific). #1 would work for me as well as #4, personally, but then if someone really wanted to be a Druid that was vital to a group, only #4 caters to that eg as a Melee Wildshape specialist (fighter).
Edit: @Rafkin re above: Are you saying combine options for Druids to player either #2 or #3 and even train up to play both by pseudo-class-swapping?
Btw: Quite amped for Druid as reading "The Philosopher and the Wolf ~ Mark Rowlands" atm. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Two paths. Ranged or melee.
Ranged Druid is a second rate nuker but with a strong animal companion. Off heals and caster buffs.
Melee Druid uses wildshape for a second rate dps role and strong animal summoning spells. Off heals with melee buffs.
Combined with the companion or summons each type of druid can match the dps of first rate dps'ers and still have off heals/buffs.
When in doubt stick to Pathfinder. They work well in PnP groups and I don't see any glaring reason to take them in some other drastic direction. Option #4 looks too similar to a WoW Druid for my taste.
I could buy in to your plan, Rafkin.
Almost any of the choices would be better than gimping the class.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@AvenaOats. I would not suggest swapping between the roles but it probably wouldn't be too terrible if they allowed it. Of course, if the druid wants to split their training time I suppose they could do both
This makes me curious why Stephen Cheney presented them as alternative choices. As said I really like #3 but really don't care for #2. So to be fair, neither alone would be preferable (either to me or to someone else). If they were both options, then it makes them more attractive, definitely. But then I can see further preferences beyond these 2... ! Hence Hybrid condundrum: Under or over-powered problem and #1 flexible but weaker or #4 same as but specialised as per any other cross-class.
In the end #4 just seems to cover the most bases (most inclusive)?
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Goblin Squad Member
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"why should I play a [insert class here] when a Druid can do it just as well" ...may as well create that thread now and sticky it.
I think the underlaying theme of the "jack of all trades" is while a druid can "backstab" as good as a rogue (if they spend the time to specialize in that area) they will not have the same flavor of play as a rogue. They won't be able to pickpocket, detect traps, etc that a rogue can do. You can probably make the same arguement for the other 3 classes as well. To counter this, I'm hopeful that the Druid will have its own abilities (other than just being able to do a bit of everything) that makes them unique as a class without overpowering the class itself.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The "required" role of the Rogue in the party has never been about DPS, it's been about being the trap-monkey. Druids may be able to be shadowy killers, but they will never be able to deal with traps, locks, or picking pockets like a rogue.
I'd like to think it's a lil bit of both. Nothing feels better than getting that nice backstab crit on a baddie to look like a BAMF!
That being said, your point does help remind me that while this is a MMO, I should get my mind off what is "established" in the Themepark community and bring it back to some PnP roots as well. Good food for thought!
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Two paths. Ranged or melee.
Ranged Druid is a second rate nuker but with a strong animal companion. Off heals and caster buffs.
Melee Druid uses wildshape for a second rate dps role and strong animal summoning spells. Off heals with melee buffs.
Combined with the companion or summons each type of druid can match the dps of first rate dps'ers and still have off heals/buffs.
When in doubt stick to Pathfinder. They work well in PnP groups and I don't see any glaring reason to take them in some other drastic direction. Option #4 looks too similar to a WoW Druid for my taste.
This isn't a bad suggestion, but I think it forces you to choose too narrowly how you play a Druid. Wildshape is too core to the class, in my opinion, to give up if you choose to be a caster. It is, essentially, what makes a Druid a pure hybrid class. Another issue I see is many will want to play their Druid as a healer, a common role in other MMOs and PnP, and your example relegates them to being 2nd rate healers. These are some of the reasons I prefer option 4, you can, eventually, truly rise to the status of Master of the Wilds, an Archdruid, with time and dedication.
Now, to play Devil's Advocate: A Druid in fast animal forms can attack like a rogue. Outside of that, I don't see a Druid having a rogue's utility(Picking Pockets, Opening Locks, Deciphering Languages, etc.) so in this one instance I don't quite follow how a druid is assuming the full role of a Rogue outside of combat and stealth(I'll defer to finding/removing NATURAL traps and snares). What I do see(and I fully expect the backlash from making this statement) is a Druid focusing on Wildshape having to pick and choose certain skills and/or earn merit badges along this path that can unlock both the rogue and fighter styles of combat. It should take a period longer to fully be able to engage in this role as a capstoned fighter or rogue, but not a full "training cycle" more.
While we are on the subject, what of elemental shapes? Does a healing archetype druid eventually unlock Water Elemental forms? A dps caster archetype unlock fire? What if he is a "Storm Druid"? Wouldn't Air Elemental forms make more sense? Or are the elemental forms to be the pinnacle of following the Wildshape archetype path?
Just some thoughts.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The "required" role of the Rogue in the party has never been about DPS, it's been about being the trap-monkey. Druids may be able to be shadowy killers, but they will never be able to deal with traps, locks, or picking pockets like a rogue.
True, howver, will any of this play a factor in open pvp?
That being said, your point does help remind me that while this is a MMO, I should get my mind off what is "established" in the Themepark community and bring it back to some PnP roots as well. Good food for thought!
I think this is something many of us struggle with. I know I certainly have.
I can't wait to get into the game and see how these characters play. Whether PvP or PvE it'll be a different experience for sure! :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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The "required" role of the Rogue in the party has never been about DPS, it's been about being the trap-monkey. Druids may be able to be shadowy killers, but they will never be able to deal with traps, locks, or picking pockets like a rogue.True, howver, will any of this play a factor in open pvp?
Not much, unless rouges have trap-making abilities and create ambushes for players to pull them into them. Where it will come into play is PvE Caverns, Dungeons, and Crypts. It may take some time before these are in game, but based on the first level of Thornkeep being the the Tech Demo and dev statements, they will be there eventually.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I do not see the Option #4 Druid creating 4 times the work for the devs.
- the Animal Companion and wild skills will already exist for Ranger, just share the bits of the skill progression the two classes have in common
- Wildshape for melee needs a wild form but then just share some fighter skills ... as for wildshape for other purposes (spy as a cat etc) that can wait till later
- Caster Progression ... just use existing cleric/wizard casting skills but tweak the spells
Done cleverly, a mix and match class may need LESS work if enough existing resources from other classes can be pressed into service.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Not much, unless rouges have trap-making abilities and create ambushes for players to pull them into them. Where it will come into play is PvE Caverns, Dungeons, and Crypts. It may take some time before these are in game, but based on the first level of Thornkeep being the the Tech Demo and dev statements, they will be there eventually.The "required" role of the Rogue in the party has never been about DPS, it's been about being the trap-monkey. Druids may be able to be shadowy killers, but they will never be able to deal with traps, locks, or picking pockets like a rogue.True, howver, will any of this play a factor in open pvp?
One of our PnP Druids used to throw badgers at traps to set them off until the GM in that game pointed out it was "very non Druid like" to make even a summoned animal suffer and his alignment was at risk of shifting to evil.
They're saying they don't want to dedicate lots of content to a single class, which makes sense. It'd be like giving all the weapons to merchants and leaving the bandits stuck with cudgels and daggers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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They're saying they don't want to dedicate lots of content to a single class, which makes sense. It'd be like giving all the weapons to merchants and leaving the bandits stuck with cudgels and daggers.
Only the wildshape is dedicated, the other abilities are shared with rangers (animal companian and wilderness abilities) fighters (melee skills) and clerics (Druids never had spells of the arcane invisible flying fireball tossing stealth bomber type anyway).
That's not what he was referring to, I don't think. I think he was talking about the groves and suchwhat.
I mean people talking about various things to make druids more druidy. From his post:
Just out of fairness, I think we're disinclined to create a ton of special organizational exceptions for Druids unless we can give something equally cool to all the other roles.
Only the wildshape is dedicated, the other abilities are shared...
And that wouldn't be dedicated if shapechange (wiz/sorc) was included.
Yea, we were getting pretty far out there with specialized stuff that only applied to Druids. I can understand where he was coming from. With all the stuff we were talking about they could finish 4 other classes, or add all the stuff for Druids. Given the choice I would make the same decision they did.
Hopefully much of that content can be added much later after release. But now when they are working on core systems, basic class ( role) mechanics and getting things like structures, settlements, combat ironed out they have enough work to last them a while.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In 2.5 years I would like to reach the druid capstone ability, not 10 years. Also I not interested in he rogue skills, channel energy of clerics and domain spells, better armour of fighters. I don't see how the wizard role comes into play. The features I looking for is the druid specific features that other roles don't give: wild shape (primary), casting while in wild shape, animal companion (that grows in power as druid advances), improved environment movement, poison immunity, cast spontaneous animal summons.
Option 4 to me as it stand, is just taking the 4 roles of cleric, fighter, wizard, and rogue (multiclassing) and levelling them up at the same time, though 4 times longer.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think the druid 'hybrid' would happen naturally. Choosing what to train will mean that the druid could try to focus or try to diversify, but they just wouldn't have the stats to do everything as well as a focused class. I guess this is a mix of the options Stephen Cheney laid out. You'd have the ability to do any of the options, depending on what you train and for how long.
Druid spells can heal, but not as well as the average cleric. They could stealth or do burst melee damage like a rogue, but wouldn't have disable device, sleight of hand, etc. They could flamestrike but won't have the magical versatility and knowledges to cover everything a wizard could do. They could change out abilities with a refresh, but they couldn't do everything at once.
If you end up making them a 'fifth member' or 'consolation prize', then give druids some kind of bonus when partied together. Maybe they can only do 80% of the job of some other class alone, but each other druid they're partied with increases that by 10%. Then there might be CCs specifically focused on druidry.
Oh, and please allow druids to choose the more general 'Green Faith' paganism, so they don't all have to follow Gozreh like some wannabe cleric who happens to have an allergy to iron.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In 2.5 years I would like to reach the druid capstone ability, not 10 years. Also I not interested in he rogue skills, channel energy of clerics and domain spells, better armour of fighters. I don't see how the wizard role comes into play. The features I looking for is the druid specific features that other roles don't give: wild shape (primary), casting while in wild shape, animal companion (that grows in power as druid advances), improved environment movement, poison immunity, cast spontaneous animal summons.
Option 4 to me as it stand, is just taking the 4 roles of cleric, fighter, wizard, and rogue (multiclassing) and levelling them up at the same time, though 4 times longer.
They said as long to level a multi-class character with all those roles. That doesn't neccisarily mean 4 x the time it takes to capstone a single class character focused on one role. Beyond the fact that due to shared skills your 2nd, 3rd and 4th classes are likely to train faster than the first I am guessing what they are saying is the time it takes to cherry pick your desired skills from those 4 roles, not train all 4 to capstone.
Also. As far as I understand the capstone ability has been removed / altered drastically. You get a bonus accumulated as you level for running abilities from a single class.
What I am understanding is that you can train you druid to capstone at the same rate as any other single class. That druid can be as stong as a melee combatant as a fighter via wildshape , as sneaky and deadly as a rogue also via wildshape, as good at healing and buffing as a cleric via spells, or as deadly and versatile as a wizard via spells. You can pick any of the above or weaker combo of any of the above to reach capstone.
What you cannot do is level all those roles as fast as a single role character. Even though gear / build restrictions won't let you play them all at once if you level one character and can now play tank, stealth/DPS, magic support, and magic DPS by swapping out your gear/abilities you just leveled 4 roles at once. That is OP.
This all makes perfect sense to me. You can still level a druid of equivalent power of every other class as fast as every other class.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Andius explains Stephen Cheney's options exactly I am sure.
#1: Mix all of the sub-4 options into a hybrid 1-20 (can do all, but less effective at each than the equivalent counterpart (f, c, r, w)
#2,3: Melee-Hybrid (ie fighter+pet+buff+druidic; caster+pet+buff+druidic)
#4: Separate the 4 options to level along each equivalent to their counterpart AND equally effective - but not atst! ie x4 paths.
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I'm curious how much of #3 can I get if the overall option #4 is taken (because #4 is the most flexibile for everyone)? If not so much, then I'd go for option #1 as my preference, but I assume you can cross-skill train with #4 as per cleric/wizard/rogue eg - just longer?
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Stephen Cheney
I would prefer #1.
Maybe something like: has to choose which wildshape form to tie to action bar. Maybe has to choose between pet and wildshape and which form to tie. Bear could fight. Cat could flee/sneak, but wouldn't be good at fighting.
The versatility should compensate for the lack of min/max when it comes to other pure classes.
With pet and spells up in human shape should be able hold one's own, whether in melee or ranged.
Make a long cooldown for wildshape so it isn't exploited.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I go with option #1, don't want any of the other non-druid rubbish of the other 4 mentioned classes.
Hang around, I assume you're a pathfinder player also (I'm not!)? So what about:
Im with rafkin.
What he outlines about following pathfinder i think would be best.
Allow the druid to either focus on melee or casting, using summons/companion to keep up.
They're BOTH saying #2,3 ARE pathfinder-ish. #2 & #3 both appear to be hybrids with very Druidic leaning. But #1 is more generalist and those two are more specialist. Equally #4 is both specialist AND generalist...
The question is, how generalist can #4 be also? If it can, then it's a product of longer training time (so it's not OP) - which I'd be comfortable with (a char that can cross-train by remain in character/category/"archetype", is very appealing). And suspect #4 would overall lead to less headaches for both players and devs?