Goblin Squad Member
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To be able to use the title archdruid you would probably have to have druid class merit badge level 20 or so and to have only slotted druid skills in action bar, also you would probably have to be a leader of a settlement. That's what I would do.
There could be settlement spots in the wilderness where only those that possess druid class merit badges could build and create a settlement and the graphic could of course imitate a certain look of a druid grove.
I'm wondering that a character probably has to be neutral in alignment to be able to slot druid skills.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It is unlikely that beyond alignment restrictions the game mechanics will encourage exclusionary policies. Whether LG, CE, or NN settlements the primary power multiplier appears to be player characters. If I evaluate correctly what of the game I think we understand it will not be in the best interests of any settlement to be any more exclusive than it needs to be, save for very specific and limited reasons.
Much of a kingdom's power will be a direct consequence of active population, whatever the alignment.
What makes a druid a druid is a misleading question: it is the player who makes a druid a druid, and a player is not a what but a who. But to identify a druid as a druid can be difficult: animal domain cleric can look very much like a druid if you are going by animal companionship. Air domain clerics can call lightning just as a druid may. But few clerics who are not druids will be able to do both. If they wear any metal armor they are not a druid. If the PC is of any extreme alignment (LG,LE,CE, or CG) he or she is not a druid. Further you may be able to discern it is a druid if you can identify the spells they cast, such as 'goodberry', which I believe no other class than druid may use.
And if they can turn their staff into a treant, or transform into a bear, or wolf, or panther (or hawk or mouse) then you can be reasonably assured they are Druid.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is a good question. But I think it applies to more than just druids, but all class archtypes that have a restriction requirement and iconic powers.
For druids, being neutral and using nature's power are the two main things.
For Paladins, being Lawful Good and using divine power are the two main things.
For Barbarians, being Chaotic and using Rage and rage powers are the two main things.
For Monks, being Lawful and using Ki-infused Martial Arts are the two main things.
So how do you make class archtypes with alignment restrictions and selective powers available to a player? Theres the option to make each of the above archtypes to require a "joining". A Coven for Druid, a Holy Oath for a Paladin, a Fearsome Cry for a Barbarian, a Vow of Discipline for a Monk.
There is also the possible requirement of skills, requiring the player to have all of the minimums for a level 1 of the archtype they want.
What I would like to see is a combination of the two, at least for these archtypes, if not all of them. Those players that want to become say a Barbarian would get the base requirements for a level 1 Barbarian (BAB 1 Fort Save 2 Skill Ranks 4+ D12+ Health) then seek out a trainer or location for their Fearsome Cry. The trainer could be sage-like brawler in a beer soaked tavern, shouting at the top of a mountain on a mysterious runed rock that a local tribe revers or former gladiator willing to pass on his deadly craft.
I think this would add alot to the game, because players would be looking to find all of these places and people in the area, and it would be explorers who know about the mountaintop where Barbarians have pilgrimaged for generations or know about the cottage in the woods under the great tree where a druid makes his home.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Q: What makes a druid, a druid?
Quick wiki hunt:
1. Summary:As the cleric serves the peoples and settlements of Golarion, the druid serves the wilderness. Druids seek to maintain the balance between the natural world: the elements, plants, animals, and sentient creatures alike. But like the capricious world they protect and serve, druids vary in nature from avenging anger to gentle guardians.
Druids are rare. The reclusive nature of most groves, along with the demanding and very introspective nature of their lives means very few beings are suited to the faith. Most druids avoid interaction with things outside of nature - politics, economics, and even organized religion are foreign concepts to most.
- Wilderness
- Nature = Neutral
- Druids are rare
2. Alignment: Neutral (cross-directions).
3. Key Ability: Wisdom
4. Key Skills: he druid's class skills are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Fly (Dex), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (geography) (Int), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Perception (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).
5. Key Spells: "Nature", "Weather" "Elements"
=
So the druid gains natural powers via a pact to protect the natural state: In some form of conclusion. The question is how to sublimate that into a form that works within the game design goals of PFO?
- At high-level: Druids might be key in one of the four pillars of PFO: "Exploration"?
- At the Commoner (gatherer/harvester) role level might fit Druids best
- Alignment Neutral meaning they belong to neutral settlements which perhaps NEVER fully civilize a hex, beyond a certain extent?? Q: Would a fully wild hex provide Druids with bonuses while operating in (and penalties in highly civlized)? Eg "Player-controlled territory with weak or no laws" & "Uncontrolled territory".
- One area where the sense of the "membership" of a Druidic community could operate is within the NPC Alliances system: Live Through This Perhaps this could be a major feature of the Druid archetype?
- Animal Companion (AI Pet) is a key (optional?) progression system for druid characters. What functions could this serve: Combat, Guarding, Transport, Eye-In-The-Sky, Tracking etc?
- Promotion of wilderness/increase in yield of harvesting/gathering synergy in the economic system via Druid intervention/influence? EG "Crops" and "Wood & Hides" faucets into Settlements.
- Influence on natural mobs (escalations/avoidance/aid)?
- Able to create a natural sub-type watchtower type in a wilderness hex with different properties?
- Careers that suit Druid? Banditry?
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Goblin Squad Member
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there needs to be a real in-game distinction between druids and non-druids.
The same argument goes for clerics of all religions, paladins and monks.
...Given this it seems to me that druid should not be a title given to characters with a certain set of skills but instead a title given to the members of a particular faction.
Well, there's the solution you want! Make "Druids" (or church of Gozreh) a npc faction to win favour with and make druidic titles into 'faction titles' requiring not only druid levels but also faction standing. Faction gain/loss could be tuned to encourage 'neutral' and 'pro-nature' behaviour.
I think it would be unfair to make progress for druids harder than for other classes, so 'druid faction points' should not be required to level as druid. Certain druid abilities (like druidic language) could be 'faction abilities' though.
This system could (should?) easily be used for paladins as well although law/good/rep works well enough as a default paladin code.
One could also generalize it into a 'religion' system where you select a deity and get 'faction standing' with said deity. Iomedea devout would be rewarded for acting like paladins, Adabar devout for making money and expanding their settlements, Gorum devout for winning wars... It quickly gets ugly with the evil deities rewarding evil behaviour, but if rewards/consequences are designed with great wisdom it could give a lot of flavour (and make religion into a key defining attribute for a character).
What I would like to see is a combination of the two, at least for these archtypes, if not all of them. Those players that want to become say a Barbarian would get the base requirements for a level 1 Barbarian (BAB 1 Fort Save 2 Skill Ranks 4+ D12+ Health) then seek out a trainer or location for their Fearsome Cry. The trainer could be sage-like brawler in a beer soaked tavern, shouting at the top of a mountain on a mysterious runed rock that a local tribe revers or former gladiator willing to pass on his deadly craft.
I think this would add alot to the game, because players would be looking to find all of these places and people in the area, and it would be explorers who know about the mountaintop where Barbarians have pilgrimaged for generations or know about the cottage in the woods under the great tree where a druid makes his home.
Being mentioned trainers that must be sought out in another thread and I really liked that idea. I support roles (classes) who's trainers are located in out of the way places or trainers that wander the land and must be tracked down, located by asking players or NPCs. Especially as you increase in power (level) it would just make sense that the trainers would be harder to find, or at least require more travel to reach. I think it would really add to classes like the Druid, the Barbarian and the Monk and perhaps some others as well.
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Goblin Squad Member
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For druids, being neutral and using nature's power are the two main things.
For Paladins, being Lawful Good and using divine power are the two main things.
For Barbarians, being Chaotic and using Rage and rage powers are the two main things.
For Monks, being Lawful and using Ki-infused Martial Arts are the two main things.
Just to nitpick, but Barbarians are not restricted to Chaotic, and they are not about being chaotic. They are simply non-lawful. They are fueled by rage but they can be neutral.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I just hope that if druid lifestyle is too restrictive that at least some of their abilities are available to non-druids. Animal companions, wildshape. I am interested in that. Freaking out every time someone chops down a tree... not interested.
Would be cool if I could multiclass druid and get the abilities I want by say having a respect/admiration for wolves. And so I can have a wolf companion and shift into a wolf. But I don't have to cry over every tree felled to make a home like a true druid.
If this denys me access to groves and the druidic language that's cool. I'm fine with reserving those for the fanatics.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I just hope that if druid lifestyle is too restrictive that at least some of their abilities are available to non-druids. Animal companions, wildshape. I am interested in that. Freaking out every time someone chops down a tree... not interested.
Would be cool if I could multiclass druid and get the abilities I want by say having a respect/admiration for wolves. And so I can have a wolf companion and shift into a wolf. But I don't have to cry over every tree felled to make a home like a true druid.
If this denys me access to groves and the druidic language that's cool. I'm fine with reserving those for the fanatics.
It almost seems you seek more of the Ranger to me. I don't know about about the wildshape, but the companion. To me, Druids ARE the extreme, and cannot be anything other then the extreme.
Not sure exactly, but it involves a lot of patchouli.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What makes druids for me is the inability to use metal armor or weapons, the animal companion, the wildshape and the awesome spells.
As far as cross classing a druid ... at the very least iconic class features like smite for a paladin, channel energy for a cleric or wildshape for a druid should ONLY be available if absolutely no other cross-class skills the character may have picked up are slotted.
In PnP it does not work that way but it will be way to easy in PFO to pick and choose iconic abilities and mix and match unless some restrictions are made.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm kinda with Andius, here. I plan on running either a druid or a ranger as my main, because exploration is one of my main in-game motivations.
I've never been a fan of the 'ultra-tree-hugger-super-vegan' druids that some folks seem to favor, and I'd hate for that playstyle to be dictated to me via game mechanics. Respect for nature does not equal abhorrence of all things civilized and blind defense of all things natural. Felling a few trees, plowing a field, hunting for food, raising animals for domestic purposes - these are things that only the most extreme druids would have a problem with. Remember, there are blighter-type druids on Golarion that do not lose their abilities simply because they revel in the darker side of nature.
It's a theme that I've seen in a few threads of late, and it's one that I don't want to see make its way into PFO. Not every druid is a card-carrying member of Greenpeace.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I just hope that if druid lifestyle is too restrictive that at least some of their abilities are available to non-druids.
Oh sure: you just can't wear metal armor when using them.
Animal companions,
You can get that one and still wear metal armor if you go cleric and choose Animal domain.
wildshape.
That one is Druid specific. If you want to use it you couldn't wear metal armor.
I am interested in that. Freaking out every time someone chops down a tree... not interested.
So don't play your character in a manner that freaks out over a cut tree. You define your character after all. If Joe Treehugger gets upset over a cut tree that is his character, not yours. It isn't part of being a Druid unless it is significantly more damaging to nature, and humans, elves, and dwarves are considered natural too, right? Or do you feel people are unnatural?
Would be cool if I could multiclass druid and get the abilities I want by say having a respect/admiration for wolves. And so I can have a wolf companion and shift into a wolf. But I don't have to cry over every tree felled to make a home like a true druid.
Aside from your oddly twisted impression of what a true Druid is, you could get Animal Companion from the Ranger class, Andius, which class seems more like you than Druid. Rangers don't get wildshape, but they do get animal companion.
If this denys me access to groves and the druidic language that's cool. I'm fine with reserving those for the fanatics.
Fanatics. No bias in your family, right? Not confident enough in your own path so you feel a need to throw mud on others? Pretty sad.
We haven't yet heard whether turning from Druidism bars you from using Druid skills or not. You might not be able to use metal armor at all if you mean to use Druid spells.|
Goblin Squad Member
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As far as cross classing a druid ... at the very least iconic class features like smite for a paladin, channel energy for a cleric or wildshape for a druid should ONLY be available if absolutely no other cross-class skills the character may have picked up are slotted.
Why? That isn't even true in the P&P. If you take 10 levels druid 10 levels fighter you don't lose your 1-10 druid abilities. Just the level 11-20 druid abilities.
Since this is a classless game I would like to see each ability have restrictions and requirements logical to that ability only. Like smite evil would require you to be good but perhaps not lawful good. But some of the other more logically lawful paladin abilities would require you to be lawful or lawful good.
For a druid wildshape should require you to earn a merit badge or complete a quest that teaches you to understand and become kindred spirits with the animal you want to become. But it shouldn't make you become a tree hugging fanatic. The druid language, access to their groves, and some of the druid only spells probably should.
Now if you take smite evil but not other paladin abilities you can't advance as a paladin meaning the bonuses they talked about for having all your abilities of one class are not available to you. If you cherry pick your druid abilities you shouldn't be able to advance as a druid. But a character that cherry picks some of the abilities they like from a class should be possible in a classless game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Depends on what of the pathfinder rules they keep and which they leave behind. Its something we'll just have to stay tuned to learn.
But I recall Ryan pointing out that restrictions and rules are what keeps creativity elegant, or words to that effect. You can't really compose a sonnet without paying attention to meter and rhyme.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you take 10 levels druid 10 levels fighter you don't lose your 1-10 druid abilities. Just the level 11-20 druid abilities.
I thought this to be untrue. The skill path of each class is a max of 20, but not your total you can go. As in if you decide to do 10 druid, and 10fighter, aftwards you can continue down the path of druid, so after a long time of training, you can actually have 20 druid and 10fighter (or even more fighter +other training). Unless they changed it though, GW has said the timeline in which it will take to get a path to 20, is about 2 and a half years. so given the time, a very long time, you could actually get every skill in the game (talking decades here, and all in theory)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Just to nitpick, but Barbarians are not restricted to Chaotic, and they are not about being chaotic. They are simply non-lawful. They are fueled by rage but they can be neutral.
For druids, being neutral and using nature's power are the two main things.
For Paladins, being Lawful Good and using divine power are the two main things.
For Barbarians, being Chaotic and using Rage and rage powers are the two main things.
For Monks, being Lawful and using Ki-infused Martial Arts are the two main things.
Ah, this is very true. Thank you for pointing this out.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So you can be a 20 druid, a 20 fighter, and a 20 crafter. This does not make you a level 60 character, just a level 20 in whatever role you decide to go (or mix and match. I could be wrong, this is just my understanding.
I think you are partially wrong.
In pathfinder you can never get beyond twenty, therefore if you mix and match say cleric and druid you cannot be a full caster level cleric and a full caster level druid you might have say 12 levels of druid and 8 of cleric.
In PFO you can, so depending on game mechanics and available slots, you may feasibly be able to wander around channeling energy like a level 20 cleric, wildshaping like a level 20 Druid with a level 20 animal companion while still equipping full caster level spells from both classes. If this sort of mix and match of iconic class abilities and spells does turn out to be available it is far far more powerful than anything available under PnP.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I was aware in the PnP, you can only max at 20 total, but I was mainly talking about PFO.
Yep, but a character that can have level 20 wild-shape, with level 20 wizard spells, a level 20 Animal companion and level 20 sneak attack all slotted at once (if that is the way it ends up working) is far more like a level 60 character than a level 20.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The point in PFO is while you CAN have all those abilities, you can't have them all at once.
In PnP you'd be a level 60, but that's because you could use all those powers at the same time. (Also, epic level rules kick in that allow for far more crazy stuff, but...)
In PFO, as far as I know, you can only slot a limited selection ability at once. So while you can have the skills of 3 level 20 characters, you can only be one at once. Or mix and match.
Now, how this will work for health and stuff, I'm not sure. I guess if they work on it even wizards can have max health. So there's that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So you can be a 20 druid, a 20 fighter, and a 20 crafter. This does not make you a level 60 character, just a level 20 in whatever role you decide to go (or mix and match. I could be wrong, this is just my understanding.I think you are partially wrong.
In pathfinder you can never get beyond twenty, therefore if you mix and match say cleric and druid you cannot be a full caster level cleric and a full caster level druid you might have say 12 levels of druid and 8 of cleric.
In PFO you can, so depending on game mechanics and available slots, you may feasibly be able to wander around channeling energy like a level 20 cleric, wildshaping like a level 20 Druid with a level 20 animal companion while still equipping full caster level spells from both classes. If this sort of mix and match of iconic class abilities and spells does turn out to be available it is far far more powerful than anything available under PnP.
His take was pretty much my own, but he didn't mention the mix & match element. And I'm not sure our image of mix and match is necessarily simple. There are restrictions in PnP that may flow through into PFO. They might not, but remember Ryan discussing the importance of structure. It may be that if you wish to dodge like a monk you had better not be wearing armor. Similarly it may be that if you wish to shapeshift you cannot wear metal armor.
Monk is a natural fit for a Wizard who is naturally Lawful.
I'm pretty confident there will be rstrictions like that. I'm less confident that all the restrictions will apply. In the core rulebook, for example, if a Druid wears metal armor he loses his druid powers. In some conditions Druid powers may not come back unless the exDruid performs an extraordinary act, similar to atonement for a paladin.
It is possible the mix-n-match grocery shopping type of skill acquisition might not work out as simply as some are thinking.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I so glad other who want to play a druid, the traditional druid as described in D&D and PF. The current classless system has some flaws, in that one can't specify a chosen role to live up too. By taking up a role, you gain a set of restrictions. This applies to druids, monks, and perhaps the paladin.
The druids need an overarching organization, which all druids are members of, and spans the entire wilderness. The settlement mechanics goes against the description for druids in PF. The druids remains in the wilderness, very rarely go into settlements. The entire wilderness is the druid's settlement and "kingdom".
I say it is very possible to have classes in a classless system. I can select a basic role package, that contains certain tags, abilities, and restrictions. A role package contains special requirement to be able to take up the chosen career. The role package is optional choice, a fighter character would not have a role package, as anyone can train to use protection and weapons. Similar the NPC classes would not have role package.
Ryan has been very negative to those who want to play druids according to the traditional descriptions of D&D and PF, which PFO is based on, even though the mechanics will be different, the concept design of the classes must be kept.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Why? That isn't even true in the P&P. If you take 10 levels druid 10 levels fighter you don't lose your 1-10 druid abilities. Just the level 11-20 druid abilities.
The only benefits you get adding fighter class, is additional weapons, and fighter feats. You still can't wear metal armours, thus most medium and heavy armours will not be usable.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I was thinking of this while I was away. It would be cool for many purposes to classify every sub-hex into one of the following categories:
Urban
Rural
Wilderness
Based off the amount off of the amount of activity/structures in each sub-hex and the overall hex activity levels. Certain druid abilities should probably bar you from having a resurrect point in Urban sub-hexes, and druid groves should be confined to Wilderness.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I was thinking of this while I was away. It would be cool for many purposes to classify every sub-hex into one of the following categories:
Urban
Rural
WildernessBased off the amount off of the amount of activity/structures in each sub-hex and the overall hex activity levels. Certain druid abilities should probably bar you from having a resurrect point in Urban sub-hexes, and druid groves should be confined to Wilderness.
Definitely an easy concept to implement, just another byte of data describing the hex.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Definitely an easy concept to implement, just another byte of data describing the hex.I was thinking of this while I was away. It would be cool for many purposes to classify every sub-hex into one of the following categories:
Urban
Rural
WildernessBased off the amount off of the amount of activity/structures in each sub-hex and the overall hex activity levels. Certain druid abilities should probably bar you from having a resurrect point in Urban sub-hexes, and druid groves should be confined to Wilderness.
I though 'civilization rating' was already one of the hex stats.
If they absolutely want to, they could restrict the highest level druid training facilities to settlements with very low civilization rating.
What would happen is
-druids would not be able to train much in their home settlements
-you would see a few 'druid grove' settlements with mostly only druid training facilities and basically nothing that would increase the civilization/urbanization level.
-druid groves would not have many members, likely only a handful of 'archdruids' since all other classes would have little benefit in joining
-the player run druid groves would de facto act as the 'worldwide druid organization' (which was a feature in AD&D but is not mentioned in core PF). So far, so good.
-however the druid groves would be extremely vulnerable to attack as they would have few members and minimal defensive structures (but maybe wild guardians). Remote location and secrecy would not work for long.
I could see it work but very likely druids groves would we wiped 'for fun' (and territory conquest) and druids would be constantly relocating deeper into wilderness to find suitable untouched spots - a bit like historical druids being steamrolled by the roman empire.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Given the game mechanics that we know of to date, it seems to me that druid groves are more akin to bandit hideouts than to settlements.
1. Settlements are based on a large number of players working together on a variety of objectives and roles. The druid mentality is rather exclusionist and, from a RP perspective, probably be limited to druids, rangers and the like.
2. Druid groves tend to be small secret places for druids to gather. Settlements are large areas that are usually well known (of course there are exceptions).
A druidic settlement would likely be a NN town that advocates balance and/or veneration of nature. A druidic grove would likely be a hidden area that only druids and a select few may enter under pain of death.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Some extra "sticky notes" to the Druid discussion:
- Druids & effect on weather -> for food production
- "Foul" Water & food Supply (eg cast mould spore cloud); locust swarm; algae bloom
- Spread pestilence/disease in livestock &/or humanoid? Ie weaken workforce
- Activate "grove" in hexes -> move direction of state of hex eg maybe devs have dynamic vegetation change in hexes as part of the hex development system: Perhaps Druids could be active antagonists in this respect?
- Social element of Druids: What could this be? Key for pve parties of adventurers? Key for gathering? Key for settlement food production/farming & protection against antagonistic Druid workings?
- Druid conditions: Perhaps pvp flag system for Druids active if other players damage/exploit pve systems in wild hexes (no rep loss?): counter-balance conditions for this: The Cabal/Coven/Order of Druids membership?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Given the game mechanics that we know of to date, it seems to me that druid groves are more akin to bandit hideouts than to settlements.
1. Settlements are based on a large number of players working together on a variety of objectives and roles. The druid mentality is rather exclusionist and, from a RP perspective, probably be limited to druids, rangers and the like.
2. Druid groves tend to be small secret places for druids to gather. Settlements are large areas that are usually well known (of course there are exceptions).
A druidic settlement would likely be a NN town that advocates balance and/or veneration of nature. A druidic grove would likely be a hidden area that only druids and a select few may enter under pain of death.
I don't think it is necessarily true that Druid Groves are small and undeveloped. Druids have 'shape wood' and 'shape stone' powers which, besides crafting longbows, arrowheads, and staves could find greater expression in architecture. Living trees might become structures. Advanced facilities might be guarded by Treants rather than Angels or Demons. Tradehalls could be hollowed in stone cliffs.
The Celts did have towns and ring forts when the Romans invaded, and there were menhirs such as those at Carnac and Stonehenge which may have been foundations for much larger edifaces, possibly tent-like.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't think it is necessarily true that Druid Groves are small and undeveloped.
Im not saying druids are limited to small/undeveloped areas. Its probably just the word 'Grove' that is confusing. For me, the term 'druidic grove' evokes a hidden area in the forest that is used for druidic rituals. This is partly based on historical knowledge of pagan druids as well as fantasy literature.
Based on some of the comments in this thread, I thought one of the points proposed was some sort of 'druid only' area, hence the term 'druidic grove'. That might be a bit too restrictive if it doesnt allow other non-nature-affiliated classes. However, if its more along the lines of a Celtic settlement, then personally I think a settlement grown from living root and rock would be awesome!
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Goblin Squad Member
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That is definitely one of the major considerations: Druidic skills that will be accessible via cross-skill-training of other skill types by any player.
And the actual Druid-like behavior based closely on or around some of these skills and perhaps anything additional, exceptional to druids and implications of conditional use of these? Eg the Paladin is a good frame of reference as it's already been seen what sort of role and alignment synergy can be taken.
One key possibility of Groves I add to the other thread (hint: soul-binding specific to druids).
If druids are traditionally more loner/lonesome than other paths, then the "mentoring" of player druids to lower level player druids might be a good fit in that case more emphasised with this path. Especially as that path will be stringently Neutral? That might be your Order of the Druids fellowship right there?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Given the game mechanics that we know of to date, it seems to me that druid groves are more akin to bandit hideouts than to settlements.
1. Settlements are based on a large number of players working together on a variety of objectives and roles. The druid mentality is rather exclusionist and, from a RP perspective, probably be limited to druids, rangers and the like.
2. Druid groves tend to be small secret places for druids to gather. Settlements are large areas that are usually well known (of course there are exceptions).
A druidic settlement would likely be a NN town that advocates balance and/or veneration of nature. A druidic grove would likely be a hidden area that only druids and a select few may enter under pain of death.
I don't think it is necessarily true that Druid Groves are small and undeveloped. Druids have 'shape wood' and 'shape stone' powers which, besides crafting longbows, arrowheads, and staves could find greater expression in architecture. Living trees might become structures. Advanced facilities might be guarded by Treants rather than Angels or Demons. Tradehalls could be hollowed in stone cliffs.
The Celts did have towns and ring forts when the Romans invaded, and there were menhirs such as those at Carnac and Stonehenge which may have been foundations for much larger edifaces, possibly tent-like.
I would think if you wanted to see something like this you would have druid structures count for less or even nothing when determining if a settlement is considered "urban" or not. After all a bunch of people that live in structures made of living trees is hardly the traditional idea of a city, and has a much lower impact on nature.
I could see it work but very likely druids groves would we wiped 'for fun' (and territory conquest) and druids would be constantly relocating deeper into wilderness to find suitable untouched spots - a bit like historical druids being steamrolled by the roman empire.
I could also see druid cities attracting powerful allies who want their members to have access to the skill training only available in druid cities, and the support of the druids. I would certainly support a movement to offer protection to the arch druids as long as our druids could go there to train. Sounds kind of like setting up a wildlife refuge to me. Since druids are true neutral they could easily maintain a position of "We will let your druids train here if you protect us." and have many organizations of all alignments take them up on it. I would view attacking them as only a step below attacking a newb training organization which is #1 on my list of things to do if you want to make a blood-enemy out of me.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Fanatics. No bias in your family, right? Not confident enough in your own path so you feel a need to throw mud on others? Pretty sad.
I am absolutely biased. I also would not deny the title fanatic were it applied to me.
Lets think a second about someone. This person spends every moment and resource not needed to sustain themselves doing everything within their power to help others. I would describe this person as a fanatic. I would also describe them as living the most admirable lifestyle possible in a human being.
The fact you perceive the word fanatic as a hostile comment or "slinging mud" is because of your own biases. Not mine. The only person slinging mud here is you.
I perceive druid ideals as fanatical and I am not on board with all of them but that doesn't mean I have a negative view of druids. Just like I eat meat and other animal products but I don't hate vegans or even look down on them, even though I consider many of their views rather extreme. They have extreme ideas because they feel living them makes them a better person. As long as those ideas don't hurt others I have no issue with this.
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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A lot of the Druid stuff I've seen posted recently is somewhat problematic, as it seems to be requesting a level of work on one role that requires a lot more development resources than any of the other roles. Just out of fairness, I think we're disinclined to create a ton of special organizational exceptions for Druids unless we can give something equally cool to all the other roles.
So will there be different art for Druid-run settlements and special rules for their training that other roles don't get? Probably not for a while after launch, if it happens at all. An alliance path with the Church of Gozreh that grants traditional Druid titles is more likely to happen sooner. When Druids launch, their training building is likely to be a nice natural looking grove, but it will functionally be a park within a settlement that can choose to surround it with non-natural-looking structures if desired.
But, while I've got you here thinking about Druids...
Druids have a lot of MMO history as being the most hybrid of the hybrid classes. Wildshape and the pet gives them the potential to substitute for a Fighter or a Rogue. More aggressive Divine spells give them the potential to substitute for a Cleric or Wizard.
This can make them very tricky to balance. Other MMOs have had frequent rebalancing swings where Druids go from "second best at everything, so you might as well play the class that's best at what you want to do" to "as good as other classes at several things, so effectively TOO GOOD compared to those other classes that can only do one thing."
So we'd like to get a little informal poll on which of the following options people would prefer us to look into:
- Druids are not as good at anything as the core four combat roles, but they can do all of the things they can do to a lesser extent via pet, wild shape, and spells. They're a good "fifth member" for a party that already has the bases covered, or a consolation prize for a party that can't get exactly the roles they want. They may have a hard time finding a place in highly specialized permanent parties/companies.
- Druids are primarily a melee combat role focused on Wild Shape. They can access some ranged damage and divine healing/buffing via spells, but they don't have nearly the versatility or staying power for these as Wizards or Clerics. Their pet gives them some interesting tactical options.
- Druids are primarily a ranged combat role using a deeper well of damaging divine spells. They don't have quite the damage output of a Wizard or Sorcerer, but also have better armor, some melee capability, the pet, and a bit of buffing and healing to make them better able to withstand being the center of attention than most arcane casters. Wild shape is mostly meant for scouting or escape: it doesn't grant sufficient melee combat bonuses that a Druid can really rely on it to stand up with the Fighters and Rogues.
- Druids are a hybrid class that can be as good as any of the four main combat roles at their specialties, and can fairly easily switch between them or take a little bit of everything. In big animal forms they are as good as a Fighter, in fast animal forms they're as good as a Rogue, and in human form they can select spells to be a completely viable alternative to a Wizard or a Cleric. They can focus on any one of these functions on their leveling progression and level at a similar speed to the other role, or they can try to do all of these things at basically the speed of leveling a full four-role multiclass at the same time.
Thoughts?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Thoughts?
Druids can be just as good as Fighters, but when they're doing that, they can't use their non-Fighter abilities. Same with Rogues, Wizard, Cleric roles. It should take just as long to develop all four of these Roles as it would to develop four separate Roles.
Druids could also go "Full Hybrid" and still get a Dedication bonus even when they slot abilities from more than one of their Druid Roles, but shouldn't be as good as a specialist in that case.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So we'd like to get a little informal poll on which of the following options people would prefer us to look into:
Thoughts?
- Druids are not as good at anything as the core four combat roles, but they can do all of the things they can do to a lesser extent via pet, wild shape, and spells. They're a good "fifth member" for a party that already has the bases covered, or a consolation prize for a party that can't get exactly the roles they want. They may have a hard time finding a place in highly specialized permanent parties/companies.
- Druids are primarily a melee combat role focused on Wild Shape. They can access some ranged damage and divine healing/buffing via spells, but they don't have nearly the versatility or staying power for these as Wizards or Clerics. Their pet gives them some interesting tactical options.
- Druids are primarily a ranged combat role using a deeper well of damaging divine spells. They don't have quite the damage output of a Wizard or Sorcerer, but also have better armor, some melee capability, the pet, and a bit of buffing and healing to make them better able to withstand being the center of attention than most arcane casters. Wild shape is mostly meant for scouting or escape: it doesn't grant sufficient melee combat bonuses that a Druid can really rely on it to stand up with the Fighters and Rogues.
- Druids are a hybrid class that can be as good as any of the four main combat roles at their specialties, and can fairly easily switch between them or take a little bit of everything. In big animal forms they are as good as a Fighter, in fast animal forms they're as good as a Rogue, and in human form they can select spells to be a completely viable alternative to a Wizard or a Cleric. They can focus on any one of these functions on their leveling progression and level at a similar speed to the other role, or they can try to do all of these things at basically the speed of leveling a full four-role multiclass at the same time.
I really see druids as option 4. Spellcasting should always be be a core of druids, but they should have the freedom to choose how they will apply those spells. Most druids in PnP are either Melee monsters in Wild Shape and self buffs, or green wizards. Since the class offers the freedom to do both, then PFO should allow them to do so as well. If that means that the druid skill set is essentially four roles in one and they can specialize in one role at normal progression or try to do everything more slowly it give more variation between players and more depth to character ability choices.
My vote is for option 4
Druids are a hybrid class that can be as good as any of the four main combat roles at their specialties, and can fairly easily switch between them or take a little bit of everything. In big animal forms they are as good as a Fighter, in fast animal forms they're as good as a Rogue, and in human form they can select spells to be a completely viable alternative to a Wizard or a Cleric. They can focus on any one of these functions on their leveling progression and level at a similar speed to the other role, or they can try to do all of these things at basically the speed of leveling a full four-role multiclass at the same time.
Even though Druids won't be getting all the stuff we have been posting about here on the forums, I still feel like their class should be as unique as possible without spending undue amounts of time in their development. I would like to see their pets, wildshape and spells like treewalk, or whatever it's called be included in their array of powers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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But, while I've got you here thinking about Druids...Druids have a lot of MMO history as being the most hybrid of the hybrid classes. Wildshape and the pet gives them the potential to substitute for a Fighter or a Rogue. More aggressive Divine spells give them the potential to substitute for a Cleric or Wizard.
This can make them very tricky to balance. Other MMOs have had frequent rebalancing swings where Druids go from "second best at everything, so you might as well play the class that's best at what you want to do" to "as good as other classes at several things, so effectively TOO GOOD compared to those other classes that can only do one thing."
So we'd like to get a little informal poll on which of the following options people would prefer us to look into:
- (1) Druids are not as good at anything as the core four combat roles, but they can do all of the things they can do to a lesser extent via pet, wild shape, and spells. They're a good "fifth member" for a party that already has the bases covered, or a consolation prize for a party that can't get exactly the roles they want. They may have a hard time finding a place in highly specialized permanent parties/companies.
- (4) Druids are a hybrid class that can be as good as any of the four main combat roles at their specialties, and can fairly easily switch between them or take a little bit of everything. In big animal forms they are as good as a Fighter, in fast animal forms they're as good as a Rogue, and in human form they can select spells to be a completely viable alternative to a Wizard or a Cleric. They can focus on any one of these functions on their leveling progression and level at a similar speed to the other role, or they can try to do all of these things at basically the speed of leveling a full four-role multiclass at the same time.
Thoughts?
Definitely not so keen on 2 or 3. Either 1 or 4 for me.
I'd personally enjoy 1 the most, but overall for the total number of people who want to play as a Druid, I'd suggest final choice: Option 4 is best fit AND rewards perseverance with the archeype/role.
So Option 4: "4) Druids are a hybrid class that can be as good as any of the four main combat roles at their specialties"
Also: Thanks for the input and poll!
#1 and #3 (My destiny's twin is voting too)
#4 would take way too long - 10 years possibly. I don't like having a class that takes four times as long to reach it's cap. An archetype's rate of training should be the same as any other archetype. #2 is a bit too bizarre for my tastes and doesn't really fit in with my sense of what a druid is all about. I agree with Imbicatus that druids are more spellcasting focused rather than front row melee types.
#1 is a good choice, getting a pet, wild shape and access to some nice spells. Not overpowering but it touches on most of the things folks seem to equate with this class. #3 seems a lot like #1 except stronger magic and lesser wild shape abilities, while retaining the pet option. Both seem viable to me.
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Goblin Squad Member
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#1 Actualy seems an interesting option given the limited ability slots/refreshes along with dedication bonus and dynamic nature of play in PFO.
One of the things that tends to hose the Jack of All Trades, Master of None in other MMO's is that there is typicaly a VERY limited party size (4,5, or 6 players) in a group so having a slot taken up by a non-specialist actualy hurts the group (by reducing an available slot) rather then helps it...and also those are THEMEPARK games, so you know EXACTLY what you will be facing before you go into the dungeon and know EXACTLY what the ideal composition of specialists to bring is.
PFO seems a bit different....since you won't actualy KNOW what you are dealing with until you hit it...so having someone that can switch roles on the fly...without needing to reslot abilities or sacrifice dedication bonus or refreshes starts to become alot more powerfull...the increased adaptablity both in PvE and PvP becomes it's own strength.
In other games, which were much more static in nature...adaptability isn't as important a concern. YMMV.
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Goblin Squad Member
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But, while I've got you here thinking about Druids...Druids have a lot of MMO history as being the most hybrid of the hybrid classes. Wildshape and the pet gives them the potential to substitute for a Fighter or a Rogue. More aggressive Divine spells give them the potential to substitute for a Cleric or Wizard.
This can make them very tricky to balance. Other MMOs have had frequent rebalancing swings where Druids go from "second best at everything, so you might as well play the class that's best at what you want to do" to "as good as other classes at several things, so effectively TOO GOOD compared to those other classes that can only do one thing."
So we'd like to get a little informal poll on which of the following options people would prefer us to look into:
- (1) Druids are not as good at anything as the core four combat roles, but they can do all of the things they can do to a lesser extent via pet, wild shape, and spells. They're a good "fifth member" for a party that already has the bases covered, or a consolation prize for a party that can't get exactly the roles they want. They may have a hard time finding a place in highly specialized permanent parties/companies.
- (4) Druids are a hybrid class that can be as good as any of the four main combat roles at their specialties, and can fairly easily switch between them or take a little bit of everything. In big animal forms they are as good as a Fighter, in fast animal forms they're as good as a Rogue, and in human form they can select spells to be a completely viable alternative to a Wizard or a Cleric. They can focus on any one of these functions on their leveling progression and level at a similar speed to the other role, or they can try to do all of these things at basically the speed of leveling a full four-role multiclass at the same time.
Thoughts?Definitely not so keen on 2 or 3. Either 1 or 4 for me.
I'd personally enjoy 1 the most, but overall for the total number of people...
I'm with Avena and Valandur on this - #1 would be fun, but #4 is more practical, so my vote goes to #4.