If said shop owner is just an expert who runs the shop and the magic item creator is just an adept, then yes, you are still pretty exceptional.
Remember that part in Lord of the Rings where Sauron lost the one ring, but just went down to Mage*Mart and bought another one?
Me either.
Seriously, people...some of us don't care for the demographics of the core books, or the resulting (often irrational) implications.
Yes, I prefer magic to be exceptional. Just because my preferences differ from your preferences doesn't mean you should post thread after thread trying to prove how my preferences are irrational or ill-considered. That's arrogant and dick-ish.
I could make a very good argument indeed that the demographics and economics in the core book are completely at odds with the implied setting...but I won't. Because this is a game. There are more than enough real political, economic, and social gulfs in the world that I don't feel a need to create pretend ones. The world has plenty of "us" vs. "them," thanks.
TLDR: This isn't a physics problem...you can't prove your side "right."
Remember that part in Lord of the Rings where Sauron lost the one ring, but just went down to Mage*Mart and bought another one?
Me either.
This has nothing to do with it. He crafted the first put his magic into it. He is weaker without it.
If destroyed he is even weaker.Tolkien said
A= Sauron power
B = Ring's power
A + B = Sauron
A-B = ring lost
A -2B = Ring destroyed.
So he is worthless as a enemy when ring destroyed.
He could care less if he got another ring, he needs his ring.
Next, if anyone claimed the ring, he loses his ring wraiths. Claim isn't just owning the ring though. You have to will it.
Could you elaborate on the 'implied setting' for us bugleyman? In my opinion the implied setting is pretty loaded with magical items and magical craftsmen (and non-magical Master Craftsmen), all piled into the same world ripe for purchase.
The implied setting is loaded with magical items and craftsman, but the world at large doesn't account for the resulting implications. I hesitate to get into it, because I'm not trying to pick a fight. But as an example:
The Decanter of Endless Water. If ever there was a disruptive technology, this is it. Miles and miles of otherwise arable land in arid zones comes into immediate production. Proximity to sources of fresh water becomes a non-issue, drastically shifting the strategic importance of . The forceful spray of the decanter can easily be harnessed to run mills or other devices (water powered plow, anyone?), changing the relative value of agricultural labor. I can't begin to predict all the economic effects, but it seems pretty clear that the world and the economy would no long look anything like the pseudo-medieval society of most D&D campaigns. And this is just one example.
The point is that the implied setting is logically inconsistent in the extreme -- which means that trying to tell someone they're "doing it wrong" (see: this thread) because of their magic shop preferences, is, at best, misguided.
There is no logical high-ground to be had -- run your world the way you like.
bugleyman, taking a single ridiculous poorly designed magic item and using it to try to claim that because the game has a nonsense magic item or even several of them, that means that magic items must necessarily be rare and special or else the world would have no deserts is a sort of Reductio ad absurdum argument.
My world doesn't have encanters of endless water or other magic items that would destabilize the entire world if they exist (at least insofar as I've considered them). Decanters of endless water in my game world create water like the create water spell does. The water lasts for a certain amount of time and then vanishes. Used properly you can irrigate a small garden with them. To irrigate a farm would take hundreds or thousands.
can make ANY item in the books! You just pick one, and I can craft it in, like, three days tops! Nobody can turn out the gear like I can!"
and
GM: "Yeah, but there's a store in town that sells magic gear."
I'm still leery of this canard. If you're in magnimar, one of the top tier cities in varisia the purchase limit is 75000, so even if there is ye olde magic shoppe they'll only have a belt of physical perfection +4 or the materials to craft a +6 unless you get lucky on the weekly major magic item rolls.
And if you do have to craft one? Thats not 3 days tops. Thats 145 days minimum.
So by my read, the top tier items are incredibly rare and difficult to make or[ buy, even in the best city in the region. Am I missing something?
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bugleyman, taking a single ridiculous poorly designed magic item and using it to try to claim that because the game has a nonsense magic item or even several of them, that means that magic items must necessarily be rare and special or else the world would have no deserts is a sort of Reductio ad absurdum argument.
Whew! Good thing I'm not making that argument then.
The argument I am making is that none of this is particularly internally consistent, so trying to claim some sort of logical high ground (as per the OP claiming that because wizards exist, magic items must be commonplace) is foolish.
It's a game -- there is no right answer. In my game, magic items aren't commonplace. In your they might be. All I'm asking is people quit pretending that their way is the only one that makes "sense," because IF YOU LOOK CLOSELY ENOUGH, NONE OF THIS MAKES SENSE.
My world doesn't have encanters of endless water or other magic items that would destabilize the entire world if they exist (at least insofar as I've considered them). Decanters of endless water in my game world create water like the create water spell does. The water lasts for a certain amount of time and then vanishes. Used properly you can irrigate a small garden with them. To irrigate a farm would take hundreds or thousands.
So the rules make perfect sense...once you've changed them? ;-)
If I were playing in a strict, no-magic campaign, I wouldn't play as a rogue or a fighter. I'd be a ranger (skirmisher) and make them both cry.
I'm better than the rogue because of my full base attack bonus. I'm better than the fighter because I actually have skills. I also get all kinds of cool class abilities that neither of the others have access too (such as favored enemy, which is MUCH more valuable in a campaign with limited creature types).
Sweet!
I think you can buy the PDFs at RPGNow. BESM however really loses much of it's flavor when you try to squeeze the free for all aspect of Tri-Stat into the rigid box of D20.I prefer the BESM d20 Advanced Magic system than normal vancian casting.This wouldn't happen to be available online would it?
I am thinking of ganking the Magic System if I like it. I am planning on getting the Tri-Stat Books as well.
can make ANY item in the books! You just pick one, and I can craft it in, like, three days tops! Nobody can turn out the gear like I can!"
and
GM: "Yeah, but there's a store in town that sells magic gear."
I'm still leery of this canard. If you're in magnimar, one of the top tier cities in varisia the purchase limit is 75000, so even if there is ye olde magic shoppe they'll only have a belt of physical perfection +4 or the materials to craft a +6 unless you get lucky on the weekly major magic item rolls.
And if you do have to craft one? Thats not 3 days tops. Thats 145 days minimum.
So by my read, the top tier items are incredibly rare and difficult to make or[ buy, even in the best city in the region. Am I missing something?
You got something wrong, Magnimar's, a large city, base value (which is used to see what you can buy) is 12800gp. 75000gp is the purchase limit of Magnimar which designates the maximum amount of gp the city can use for buying a single item.
So the rules make perfect sense...once you've changed them? ;-)
So how did modifying a single magic item's function slightly become "the rules make perfect sense once I've changed them?" In fact I did not change a single "rule" at all. I only changed the specific function of a single magic item.
Nice try though.
And in the end your entire argument boils down to "I am right because dragons." Which is just a way of saying that you can argue anything because if dragons exist, nothing can possibly be logical, rational or make any sense at all.
I totally and completely disagree and find that argument to be so overused that I'm starting to call it the "because... dragons" fallacy.
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You got something wrong, Magnimar's, a large city, base value (which is used to see what you can buy) is 12800gp. 75000gp is the purchase limit of Magnimar which designates the maximum amount of gp the city can use for buying a single item.can make ANY item in the books! You just pick one, and I can craft it in, like, three days tops! Nobody can turn out the gear like I can!"
and
GM: "Yeah, but there's a store in town that sells magic gear."
I'm still leery of this canard. If you're in magnimar, one of the top tier cities in varisia the purchase limit is 75000, so even if there is ye olde magic shoppe they'll only have a belt of physical perfection +4 or the materials to craft a +6 unless you get lucky on the weekly major magic item rolls.
And if you do have to craft one? Thats not 3 days tops. Thats 145 days minimum.
So by my read, the top tier items are incredibly rare and difficult to make or[ buy, even in the best city in the region. Am I missing something?
And there is only a 75% chance of any given 12,800 gp (or less) magic item being available. So indeed unless you ignore RAW powerful magic items are quite rare and only powerful people can make them and they likely made them for a very good reason. These uber-items only show up for sale by random chance.
S.
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In answer to that last question, yes: all games aren't set on Golarion. Some campaigns have larger cities.can make ANY item in the books! You just pick one, and I can craft it in, like, three days tops! Nobody can turn out the gear like I can!"
and
GM: "Yeah, but there's a store in town that sells magic gear."
I'm still leery of this canard. If you're in magnimar, one of the top tier cities in varisia the purchase limit is 75000, so even if there is ye olde magic shoppe they'll only have a belt of physical perfection +4 or the materials to craft a +6 unless you get lucky on the weekly major magic item rolls.
And if you do have to craft one? Thats not 3 days tops. Thats 145 days minimum.
So by my read, the top tier items are incredibly rare and difficult to make or[ buy, even in the best city in the region. Am I missing something?
Largest city is the Metropolis (RAW) and that still has a value of 16,000 gp or less. Meaning still no +5 shields at the corner shop...
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I always laugh when I see comments along the line of "These rules aren't logically consistent, they should be more like Tolkien."
I mean, I'm a big fan. Maybe bigger than most, but Tolkien is NOT the stuff upon which I'd be basing even my low-magic fantasy gaming. Maybe in Burning Wheel...
This whole conversation gets down to a simple, amusing fact. Pathfinder is a retro-RPG. Its rules are in service to nostalgia first. It wasn't even a decade after D&D emerged that people started creating great, usable rules for running narratively consistent games like we're discussing here. There are a ton of systems that do incredibly well at this.
Then, at the turn of the millenium, 3e made everyone suddenly forget all of that progress and revert to D&D for nostalgia's sake. Now people seem to think it's the only game, and put an inordinate amount of work into fitting the 3e square peg into the round hole of every non-D&D setting imaginable. Of course it fails. It was never intended to be flexible at all!
The solution is to play Pathfinder when you want the things that Pathfinder does. Small tweaks are great, but if you find yourself writing a whole new set of rules just to capture the setting you want, you might be better served by another game entirely.
That doesn't mean Pathfinder's bad at what it was designed to do. On the contrary, it's my game of choice when I'm looking for a nostalgic and somewhat illogical adventure game world.
Which is just a way of saying that you can argue anything because if dragons exist, nothing can possibly be logical, rational or make any sense at all.
No AD, I'm saying that the world as written lacks internal consistency. Consequently, arguing over the logical merits of inferences drawn about said world is futile.
People who decide to make magic items rare aren't being irrational, and they're not doing it wrong. They're just doing it differently than you do. Sometimes there isn't a "right" answer.
Largest city is the Metropolis (RAW) and that still has a value of 16,000 gp or less. Meaning still no +5 shields at the corner shop...
Actually, there are like 3d6 possible +5 shields in the corner shop. It says there are few times above the limit remember.
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Actually, there are like 3d6 possible +5 shields in the corner shop. It says there are few times above the limit remember.
Largest city is the Metropolis (RAW) and that still has a value of 16,000 gp or less. Meaning still no +5 shields at the corner shop...
The chance of a +5 shield is 3d4 x 10% x 10% = 3-12%, so I agree lady luck may help you out.
Which is just a way of saying that you can argue anything because if dragons exist, nothing can possibly be logical, rational or make any sense at all.No AD, I'm saying that the world as written lacks internal consistency. Consequently, arguing over the logical merits of inferences drawn about said world is futile.
People who decide to make magic items rare aren't being irrational, and they're not doing it wrong. They're just doing it differently than you do. Sometimes there isn't a "right" answer.
The inconsistencies you speak of are not sufficient to hand-wave away the existence of a magic item economy if you follow the overwhelming preponderance of the rules bugleyman.
And I am sick. and. tired. of every time anyone on these boards says 'here's how I see things' they are jumped upon by self-appointed game referees and flagged in the face as claiming that people are "gaming wrong."
What the hell is the point of discussing anything if every time there is a disagreement the self appointed referees blow on their whistles and throw the "badwrongfun" flag?
Sheeesh.
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The chance of a +5 shield is 3d4 x 10% x 10% = 3-12%, so I agree lady luck may help you out.Actually, there are like 3d6 possible +5 shields in the corner shop. It says there are few times above the limit remember.
Largest city is the Metropolis (RAW) and that still has a value of 16,000 gp or less. Meaning still no +5 shields at the corner shop...How do you get that? There are 3d4 (3d6?) possible major magic items. Presumably randomly determined. Since there are a lot of major magic items, the chance of a +5 shield is very small.
Where does the 10%*10% come from?
Table 15-2 01-10 Armor & Shields (10%)
Table 15-3 39-49 +5 Shield (10%)you get 3-12 (3d4 Major at best in Core) rolls for random items, hence 3-12% chance of a +5 shield.
S.
Edit: Hmmm you reroll if less than the base value...
So 10% * 11.9% = 1.2% = 3.6-14.4% chance of a +5 shield at a Metropolis.
The inconsistencies you speak of are not sufficient to hand-wave away the existence of a magic item economy if you follow the overwhelming preponderance of the rules bugleyman.
In your opinion. Which do not share. What I don't understand is why you seem hell-bent on "proving" those of us who don't agree with you wrong.
And I am sick. and. tired. of every time anyone on these boards says 'here's how I see things' they are jumped upon by self-appointed game referees and flagged in the face as claiming that people are "gaming wrong."What the hell is the point of discussing anything if every time there is a disagreement the self appointed referees blow on their whistles and throw the "badwrongfun" flag?
Sheeesh.
"This is how I see things" that would be fine. Heck, that would be terrific. It's the "...and you're objectively wrong if you disagree" and subsequent belittlement that continues to cause problems for you, in this thread and others.
"This is how I see things" that would be fine. Heck, that would be terrific. It's the "...and you're objectively wrong if you disagree" and subsequent belittlement that continues to cause problems for you, in this thread and others.
LOL, when you're wrong, you're wrong. That doesn't mean you can't play that way. "Play how you like" is probably the most common thing I say on these boards.
But when there is an objective answer bugleyman, there IS one.
But when there is an objective answer bugleyman, there IS one.
...and the fact that you believe this to be such a case says everything that needs to be said.
But when there is an objective answer bugleyman, there IS one....and the fact that you believe this to be such as case says everything that needs to be said.
I'm not sure what you think is wrong with knowing that there is an objective answer to most statements.
But when there is an objective answer bugleyman, there IS one....and the fact that you believe this to be such a case says everything that needs to be said.
Haha! You crack me up. One thing I do know bugleyman is what sort of people I tend to tick off.
Also, if you actually do read my stuff you will know that it is never me who gets personal first. It's always the other guy.
Like you.
Here.
The fact (objectively) that it is usually the losing party in a debate who gets personal first is really no coincidence. :)
And I am sick. and. tired. of every time anyone on these boards says 'here's how I see things' they are jumped upon by self-appointed game referees and flagged in the face as claiming that people are "gaming wrong."
LOL, when you're wrong, you're wrong. That doesn't mean you can't play that way.
bugleyman, you win. You can pick up your statue at this year's internet referee awards show.