|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
And I don't think its coincidence that once the game turned more heavily to pont buy than rolling that stat dumping began increasing.
If you mean 'intentionally lowering one stat to raise others' when you say stat dumping, then OF COURSE it happened more after point but became more common. You couldn't do that with rolling.
If you mean 'putting your lowest score in your least important stat' when you say that, well, that has been going on for as long as people could actually make choices.
However, one single class is never as powerful as multiclassing
Multi-classing is a great way to water-down a character. I'm sure there are effective and synergized multi-class builds, but it's not the only way to build a powerful PC.
If power-gaming means I'm building an effective character who successfully fills his role within the party, and do that is wrong, then all I can say is that I don't want to be right.
/ not every character needs to be able to do everything.
If you mean 'intentionally lowering one stat to raise others' when you say stat dumping, then OF COURSE it happened more after point but became more common. You couldn't do that with rolling.
Back in our 1e/2e days, we used the 2/1 rule. You could take 2 points from any one attribute and raise another by 1 point. I don't remember if we limited how many times you could do it.
power gaming is not always a bad thing
case
1 if everyone in the group is doing it and the DM is planing on everyone to do it. (we call it hard mode. the traps doing d100s of damage)
2 the person is running a power class build but is holding back to let the party have there fun. jumping in if the party needs them.
i have had players do this a lot when we have a large group of greenhorns playing
the problem tend to be the way they act about it
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It wasn't uncommon with rolling systems for the DM to houserule and allow you to tweak them i.e. if you roll a 15 and a 12 to allow someone to modify it to 16 and 11. Usually you could only do it a ponit or two for like 1 or 2 stats. (loaba beat me to it)
So again, after the system was changed (e.g. houseruled) THEN you could dump a stat.
It is also no coincidence that once women were allowed to enlist, you saw more enlisted women.
1. I never said they needed to be able to do everything
I never said you did. However, one reason that players routinely cite for needing to multi-class, is that they want special ability of another class.
2. Powergaming as referred to here is not building an effective character, its building the exploding doom of death. Its maximizing every possible benefit you can.
Your exploding doom of death is another persons effective character.
3. I never said you were wrong not to, please stop making assumptions.
I never said you did. Power-gaming is a loaded concept and there are plenty of posters who view it as bad-wrong-fun.
4. Multi-classing doesn't water down a character when done effectively, it gives them more utility and makes them better at their primary focus. Multi-classing well will always give the most power because the "power efficiency" per se of a class goes down with levels.
Multi-classing a caster is never worth it; your spell levels will always be more valuable than anything else you might pick up in thier place. Same thing goes for Rogue; there is no real substitute for your Sneak Dice and Rogue Talents are every bit as good Feats. Those are just two quick examples are not meant to be total and complete.
/ Multi-classing is great - but it's not the premier example of Power-gaming. In fact, in my experience, it more often a prime example of how to effectively hose a PC. :)
// edit: my spelling is atrocious today.
It is true that most classes are "front-loaded" and so it seems logical that multiclassing is a good idea.
However, this is primarily only true for non-casting classes since spell level progression is non-linear and gaining the ability to cast second level spells is almost always a superior mechanical choice for a character than gaining another set of first level class abilities.
That means that while it might be true that a X/Y CL 2 character is probably more powerful than a 2X or 2Y character, a 3X or 3Y casting character will almost always be superior to a 2X/1Y or X/Y/Z character. And of course this just gets more important as you go to higher and higher levels since the non-linearity of spell levels means that 3rd level spells are more powerful than 2nd level spells than 2nd level spells are more powerful than first level spells.
Even non-casting classes sometimes have scalable abilities that mean a new class level in the same class is better than a level in any other class.
1. You don't get another class feature as a power gamer for "more utility." You do it to improve your central focus. i.e. if you're a damage dealer. 12 levels of barbarian net you +6 strength. 4 levels barbarian, 4 levels alechemist and 4 levels druid net you +12 strength (as well as far better saves). Who do you honestly think will do far better damage there?
I think a 12 level Druid would destroy your x/y/z concept, especially if the Druid PC is willing to spend the majority of time in elemental form. It's really not even fair. Druid isn't a level-dip class, rather it's a Single Class of Awesome-sauce. But now we're veering off on a tangent at this point...
The whole WOW factor. It's called Role-playing, not lets see how powerful I can get no matter what. With the MMO's that's all it's about and its bleeding over into the core games.
Agreed. Adventure, good times and choices. Not optimisation, desperate magic item slot filling, power power and more power, with not much done outside of that.
I think this is a type of Powergamer attitude. What makes your playing style better than anyone else's?Nothing. 'Powergamer' and 'munchkin' are just labels people apply to players who have a playstyle the speaker doesn't like. Calling a player a powergamer is just a way of alienating and dehumanizing them, which makes it easier to turn the group against them.
Are all the characters played by a person greedy, arrogant and obsessed with power and improving their character stats over interacting with the world. Do they try to become as unbalanced as possible suggesting high ECL monster races, Op classes or prestige classes with a determination to always get the most powerful magic item kits as quick as possible. Do they craft or shop to fill all body slots?
This isn't about dehumanisation, but observed behaviour.
The game is more than a wow clone.
Of course we have disagreed before.
Agreed. Adventure, good times and choices. Not optimisation, desperate magic item slot filling, power power and more power, with not much done outside of that.The whole WOW factor. It's called Role-playing, not lets see how powerful I can get no matter what. With the MMO's that's all it's about and its bleeding over into the core games.
As has been long-said - roleplaying and rollplaying are not mutually exclusive. You can have both.
/ personally I try to incorporate both forms of RP. I make a mechanically sound character and then work within its personality. In-game decisions are defined by personality development. Sometimes I find myself lacking in that department, but at least I try. I like to think that my KM Ranger evolved over 2.5 years of play.
You can be obsessed with making strong characters without being arrogant or greedy you know. Thats kind of a generalization and kind of an insulting one.Are all the characters played by a person greedy, arrogant and obsessed with power and improving their character stats over interacting with the world. Do they try to become as unbalanced as possible suggesting high ECL monster races, Op classes or prestige classes with a determination to always get the most powerful magic item kits as quick as possible. Do they craft or shop to fill all body slots?
This isn't about dehumanisation, but observed behaviour.
The game is more than a wow clone.
Of course we have disagreed before.
I am sure you can get yourself insulted if you try; but have you encountered these people as a DM?
Experience can be a wonderful thing for working out something actually exists, in this case a type of player.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You can be obsessed with making strong characters without being arrogant or greedy you know. Thats kind of a generalization and kind of an insulting one.Are all the characters played by a person greedy, arrogant and obsessed with power and improving their character stats over interacting with the world. Do they try to become as unbalanced as possible suggesting high ECL monster races, Op classes or prestige classes with a determination to always get the most powerful magic item kits as quick as possible. Do they craft or shop to fill all body slots?
This isn't about dehumanisation, but observed behaviour.
The game is more than a wow clone.
Of course we have disagreed before.
I am sure you can get yourself insulted if you try; but have you encountered these people as a DM?
Experience can be a wonderful thing for working out something actually exists, in this case a type of player.
Well, they're better than elitist pretentious self-centred egomaniacs who consider their "refined role-playing" (waving a silken handkerchief and quoting Plato while holding a treatise on XVI century fencing schools in Spain are optional, but fit nicely) the superior style of gaming, at any rate.
Hey Gorb, how are you going?
You ran across such a player?
Girls always get away with power gaming
just look at anime rules less they wear the more armor they have
there is even a 3rd party book for this in d&d called chain mail bikini
so
Good point Gaekub. The problem is when you have a gamer who is so obsessed with the numbers game that they can't see anything else. Then it becomes an issue. If they can mesh the high numbers with appropriate role playing, then its good times. Otherwise, they fel they created an ineffective character or they sing the tune of "your numbers are not anywhere near as high as mine and therefore the character sucks."
I don't think that is accurate, the rules are not hard to learn.
"You guys don't have fifteen page backstories and an accent for your character, so you all suck at this game."
If I see that person, I will let you know. On the powergamers, the threads on them keep coming because they are out there in force. Probably chanting DPR right now.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
If my group ever approaches me with 15 page back stories I'm gonna have an aneurysm. And I'm definitely going to tell them they suck. Maybe not at the game. But at brevity and at life in general.
Agreed.
How about 8 pages? I did this once in a game, when the DM asked for character history before we started. I don't normally go to that much effort, and it wasn't D&D, the characters all had extensive back story. It gave the DM a huge stack of ammunition to throw at the party with past enemies, indiscretions, triumphs, goals etc.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
to me, powergamers are the ones who forget that this is actually a game that you have to play, and come up with these ridiculously intricate builds that dont mature until 17th level, and dont realize that until after they start playing it.... at level 1
How about 8 pages? I did this once in a game, when the DM asked for character history before we started. I don't normally go to that much effort, and it wasn't D&D, the characters all had extensive back story. It gave the DM a huge stack of ammunition to throw at the party with past enemies, indiscretions, triumphs, goals etc.
8 is still quite a bit for me. If your DM was cool with it than that's great. I encourage character development. I'd just rather see most of it in game. The way I run my games is that before hand, I ask that they keep back story to 1 page of critical moments that they thought defined who they are and wanted to come into play at some point. 2 pages tops if they don't just don't think they can convey what they want in 1 page. After that I ask them to dole out any additional information over time. They can give me a new paragraph after every session or they can bring it up in game. They can just toss out that they have a brother named Carl. I just ask that when they are doing it in game that they don't take liberties for the sake of granting themselves knowledge they otherwise wouldn't have had.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I am generally considered by most people I play with as one of the more role play centric gamers in the group. I always have a backstory, but it's been rare that I've spent more than half a page on backstory information.
You can get a lot of stuff in half a page.
The issue in game isn't how long or involved your backstory is, it's how that backstory impacts your in game role playing.
How about 8 pages? I did this once in a game, when the DM asked for character history before we started. I don't normally go to that much effort, and it wasn't D&D, the characters all had extensive back story. It gave the DM a huge stack of ammunition to throw at the party with past enemies, indiscretions, triumphs, goals etc.8 is still quite a bit for me. If your DM was cool with it than that's great. I encourage character development. I'd just rather see most of it in game. The way I run my games is that before hand, I ask that they keep back story to 1 page of critical moments that they thought defined who they are and wanted to come into play at some point. 2 pages tops if they don't just don't think they can convey what they want in 1 page. After that I ask them to dole out any additional information over time. They can give me a new paragraph after every session or they can bring it up in game. They can just toss out that they have a brother named Carl. I just ask that when they are doing it in game that they don't take liberties for the sake of granting themselves knowledge they otherwise wouldn't have had.
Yeah, I'd prefer your story in game after a few sessions to easily cover eight pages, of what you actually do in game rather than backstory.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
/ personally I try to incorporate both forms of RP. I make a mechanically sound character and then work within its personality. In-game decisions are defined by personality development. Sometimes I find myself lacking in that department, but at least I try. I like to think that my KM Ranger evolved over 2.5 years of play.
I saw a quote on another board that summed up my philosophy - Build 'em like a power gamer, play 'em like a roleplayer.
I like strong characters that are effecient at what they do. But in play, all decisions (including tactical ones) are made from the character's point of view. If the character has gotten really angry, I've made near suicidal choices, because it fit what the character would do.
i made the mistake of give players money and magic items for back story one time i end up with a player truing in a 25page back story
and a second player had a 17page back story
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
written backstory doesn't matter to me. I'm much more comfortable with an informal interview via email or skype or text etc. If I were gonna write anything down then I would do it while preparing a 20 level progression matrix.
I hand out 2 traits for a max 1 page backstory. Easy pie. No backstory, no traits.
That is really interesting.
Can I haggle one trait for half a page? What about one trait for a really large paragraph? Two traits for two paragraphs that don't quite fit a page, except in a 16 font? How much for this gourd; or a gourd based backstory topping in at a third of a page?
I would enjoy making a char with a one sentence backstory about his blandness so that he would start with no traits "Ahemm hasn't really done much in life so far, apart from learn the basics of fighting, but he has heard adventuring is good fun and a way to escape obligations [family details and escaped obligations unmentioned]).
You would be the most unique adventurer out there: "hey Bobislaus, I hear he has no traits and no real backstory. If you ask about family friends and associations he just murmurs. It is like he isn't human!" "Wow, he must really have not cared about much before adventuring, what a lay-about."
Best adventurer ever, can fit into any setting with a minor name change (Ahem, Ahomm, Aheem, Ahmm, Ahem!), and no need to choose traits!
written backstory doesn't matter to me. I'm much more comfortable with an informal interview via email or skype or text etc. If I were gonna write anything down then I would do it while preparing a 20 level progression matrix.
:''(
But... your 20 levels of planned progression may totally not fit with the setting, opponents and available items or buffs.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
<tongue in cheek>
If their character isn't as good as mine they don't know how to make a character and are just riding my coattail.
If their character is better than mine they are power gamers who violate the true spirit of the game.
:P
Ahem Coattail is a good name, a strong name.
written backstory doesn't matter to me. I'm much more comfortable with an informal interview via email or skype or text etc. If I were gonna write anything down then I would do it while preparing a 20 level progression matrix.:''(
But... your 20 levels of planned progression may totally not fit with the setting, opponents and available items or buffs.
I typically confine myself to the CRB, UM, UC & AGP. If the setting calls for something specific then I design for that. I never veer from the core races BTW and tend to focus on Humans, Half-elves and Elves.
As for opponents and items and buffs, I know who all I play with so there are never any surprises there.
That is unfortunate, on the no surprises. As a dm I try not to recycle, got to shake it up a bit!
That is unfortunate, on the no surprises. As a dm I try not to recycle, got to shake it up a bit!
By no surprises, I mean that anything goes. Are all the magic items that are in the books available? ::Check:: - they exist in the world and could possibly be acquired (though not necessarily at the exact time that might want them.) Same goes for the baddies and buffs. If it's in the books, we utilize it.
"My world doesn't have Elves" is not something that has ever been uttered at any of the tables where I play.
/ special note: in Shattered Star, the DM did take the time to encourage us all to make native Varisians (he stopped short of requiring it). He's also been handing out unique multi-purpose magic items as well.
// my 20 level progression helps me sort through all the possible options, which can be very overwhelming. It helps me focus (and with ADD, I need all the help I can get in that department.)