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As for the concept of everything being available in a magic shop, I actually fully embraced that one campaign. I had a series of magic shops run by a collective of Mercane. Each one was connect by ring gates to a central hub.
Basically the shop looking like a humble shop. You'd go in, have a cup of tea and discuss what you'd like. The shop keeper when then gives a parchment to a servant, who went into the back, passed it through the ring gates. If the items were available a parchment with the cost would be sent back. Customer decides it is worth it, gives payment which is sent through and the item comes back.
Want to get an item enhanced. You must pay half up front (to cover crafting cost), and you must claim the item in one year or default on it. Item is sent through the gates. A receipt is given and the item can be claimed at any connected shop.
Trying to scam/rob the Mercane is probably not a good idea, considering their contracts with Inevitables and other Lawful beings.
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I think the major issue here is those who claim: Full and easy access to magic, and magic item shops is "pathfinder" and If you don't agree with that you are playing some other game.
I get it, you don't want to hear that the rules can be interpreted another way.
Let's all agree to agree on something. The Rules have always had a bit of house rule to them.
Stop telling people their ideas are "Not pathfinder", just stop.
Pathfinder does not = "high magic"
There is several options IN RAW to go in different directions. First and foremost being:
The Most Important Rule
The rules presented are here to help you breathe life into your characters and the world they explore. While they are designed to make your game easy and exciting, you might find that some of them do not suit the style of play that your gaming group enjoys. Remember that these rules are yours. You can change them to fit your needs. Most Game Masters have a number of “house rules” that they use in their games. The Game Master and players should always discuss any rules changes to make sure that everyone understands how the game will be played. Although the Game Master is the final arbiter of the rules, the Pathfinder RPG is a shared experience, and all of the players should contribute their thoughts when the rules are in doubt.
So saying Shallowsoul, or I'm or someone else isn't playing pathfinder;
Just. Needs. to stop.
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I think the major issue here is those who claim: Full and easy access to magic, and magic item shops is "pathfinder" and If you don't agree with that you are playing some other game.
I get it, you don't want to hear that the rules can be interpreted another way.
Let's all agree to agree on something. The Rules have always had a bit of house rule to them.
Stop telling people their ideas are "Not pathfinder", just stop.
Pathfinder does not = "high magic"
There is several options IN RAW to go in different directions. First and foremost being:
The Most Important Rule
The rules presented are here to help you breathe life into your characters and the world they explore. While they are designed to make your game easy and exciting, you might find that some of them do not suit the style of play that your gaming group enjoys. Remember that these rules are yours. You can change them to fit your needs. Most Game Masters have a number of “house rules” that they use in their games. The Game Master and players should always discuss any rules changes to make sure that everyone understands how the game will be played. Although the Game Master is the final arbiter of the rules, the Pathfinder RPG is a shared experience, and all of the players should contribute their thoughts when the rules are in doubt.So saying Shallowsoul, or I'm or someone else isn't playing pathfinder;
Just. Needs. to stop.
Eloquently said and I agree. There are various ways to make each group's game different and still be playing Pathfinder. Point buy is one way to differentiate games. A 15 point buy is vastly different from a 25 point buy.
You can use a strictly core rulebook game or allow every book and 3rd party product to vastly change the game.Looking at the Gamemastery part of the Core Rules you can apply a ton of different rules to change the game. Fast, slow and normal XP progression. Wealth by level for each of them. Cost of living.
Under the section for Magic Items in core there is a chart to determine randomly how many magic items the town/city has available, the base value and the power level of each.
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From the core rules on magic items:
"Magic items are valuable, and most major cities have at least one or two purveyors of magic items, from a simple potion merchant to a weapon smith that specializes in magic swords. Of course, not every item in this book is available in every town.
The following guidelines are presented to help GMs determine what items are available in a given community. These guidelines assume a setting with an average level of magic. Some cities might deviate wildly from these baselines, subject to GM discretion. The GM should keep a list of what items are available from each merchant and should replenish the stocks on occasion to represent new acquisitions."
and some more:
"If you are running a campaign with low magic, reduce the base value and the number of items in each community by half. Campaigns with little or no magic might not have magic items for sale at all. GMs running these sorts of campaigns should make some adjustments to the challenges faced by the characters due to their lack of magic gear.
Campaigns with an abundance of magic items might have communities with twice the listed base value and random items available. Alternatively, all communities might count as one size category larger for the purposes of what items are available. In a campaign with very common magic, all magic items might be available for purchase in a metropolis.
I bolded some key points here. So playing at the default level you would use the chart to determine a list of magic items available in any towns/cities. The only time that players have full access to all magic items desired in a campaign is when someone decides to run a variant game where magic is very common. Then they could go to a Metropolis to purchase whatever they wish. THIS IS NOT THE EXPECTED DEFAULT IN PATHFINDER. This is a determination by a group to play the game at a setting where magic is Very Common. The default should be using the chart.
Why is someone getting flak for wanting to eliminate the "every item is available for anyone to buy when they want"? Players get spoiled, people love instant gratification and if you ask why then those people flame you.
Aren't there already rules in place so that magic shops don't have exactly the item you want.
Like the settlement rules. They have a "base value" limited by the size of the city. Any item below this limit still has a 75% chance of being available. The base value for a metropolis (the biggest city size) is only 16000. The maximum number of items above that limit is 4d4 items (for a metropolis).
That doesn't sound all that unreasonable to me.
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Well, stripped of the biased language, does "I'd like to stop by Irongate and see if I can find an Empower Spell Rod. I've finally saved up what I hope will be enough gold." sound any better?
I don't really see anything wrong with it.
Well...no it doesn't sound better to me, but I get the fact that your campaign doesn't have an issue with it, so no judgments from me there at all. I don't want random chances to find metamagic rods (as an example) for purchase (even if under the gp value limit), as well as a host of other items that I'd want to limit on besides value. Some I'd want much rarer to obtain randomly. Some I'd want more effort in finding "the" right location to find them. Some I wouldn't want available at least until the characters have some means of researching that they "may" exist.
As the GM I can obviously hand-wave and rule them in a case-by-case situation (and I have), but I'm looking for a better mechanism to sort it out. Other than going through every item and judging it on a scale based on rarity/danger/regional prevalence.
Anyway, the realization for me of the Magic Shoppe concept is that it is not the root cause for a perceived "free-for-all" problem with magic items. Second realization is that I gotta do more prep-work now and come up with lists to provide "reasonable" limitations aside from gp value.
There is a 75% chance that any item of that value or lower can be found for sale with little effort in that community.
Still strongly dislike that line as the 'rule' ... gotta get over it ... hatez it! :)
I have a problem with the Mercane idea. Mercanes only want magic items, i could see a mercane trading a +2 lonsgword for a +2 full palte or watever, but the idea of a player buying a +2 full palte with just gold is against the description of the mosnter.
You as the DM can do, of course, wahtever you want in your games.
Well I was using the 3e Manual of the Planes, it didn't mention the whole collecting all magic items. But it did say, "Nomadic by nature, mercanes travely widely, buying and selling their wares." Of course my set up went against the nomadic part.
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Aren't there already rules in place so that magic shops don't have exactly the item you want.
Like the settlement rules. They have a "base value" limited by the size of the city. Any item below this limit still has a 75% chance of being available. The base value for a metropolis (the biggest city size) is only 16000. The maximum number of items above that limit is 4d4 items (for a metropolis).
That doesn't sound all that unreasonable to me.
Technically it is 4d4 medium items and 3d4 major items, but that is not a big difference to me.
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Who is getting flak for that?
Part of the original argument is that players MUST have access to certain mathematical boost items for certain PCs. Players, by RAW, only have access to a certain value and a certain number of magic items per locale. It seems like the OP is getting flak for that. I assume you disagree....
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I assume you disagree....
I do. Characters only need appropriate WBL if the DM intends to follow CR. Any game can do away with the big six as long as the DM is willing to adjust encounters as needed. Which may be a lot or a little adjustment, depending on how much the big six actually factor into the campaign.
Well at least we agree on something. As long as it applies to everyone.So saying Shallowsoul, or I'm or someone else isn't playing pathfinder;
Just. Needs. to stop.
Yea I dont think I ever said "what magic items everywhere??? 25 points buys?? thats not pathfinder!"
I cant remember the name of the world, but in the movie "dungeons and dragons" with one of the wayans doofus's? That world makes sense to be "High Magic" I mean, anyone who wasnt a peon was a Mage, the rulers were mages, the rulers flunkies were apprentices... etc.
That's a world and a genre. In that world, I would expect Taxi's are flying carpets and magic replaces technology, so instead of fires and torches it's clap on and clap off light spells etc.
When We play at our table, the group prefers a struggle. We roll dice but we usually get close to 15 point buys. (3d6 re roll 1s)
Magic is rare and special, if you find it you can likely sell it for full price, but locating something that's specific, or trying to get it built might be time consuming and difficult (a quest or side quest in and of it's self)
If the PC's are a little behind on something, they get defeated and might have to side quest to find something specific to help them beat the BBEG.
Sometimes I have to fix high level encounters down a little if they don't have something.
An excellent example is Queen Illeosa in CotCT...HOLY COW, that's a nasty end boss.
In APs like SS the drops in the path sorta shore up the PCs specifically for what they need.
In CC you're dealing with undead nearly the whole time so you have a whole adventuring career to set up and by read for final encounters....
So it varies from campaign to campaign.
In home brew stuff, I rarely have an issue, I guess I don't tend to use certain monsters instinctly based on the PCs power levels?
Depends on how you do stats TOZ. The way I do them, nah, you don't need the big six (I think you saw that). They're nice to have, but not required.
On the other hand, you aren't going to be taking down any CR21 dragons if you are 20th level but with the equipment of a 10th level character either. At least not without someone getting killed (probably multiple people).
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On the other hand, you aren't going to be taking down any CR21 dragons if you are 20th level but with the equipment of a 10th level character either. At least not without someone getting killed (probably multiple people).
That's why you remember that a 20th level character with 10th level WBL isn't a CR 20 character and shouldn't be expected to take down a CR21 anything.
Thanks now I can't help but think of a Martial/Mage Gestalt based Campaign inspired by Star Wars...
I am planning a Battlefield campaign that will go to around Level 10 with Low-WBL.
On the other hand, you aren't going to be taking down any CR21 dragons if you are 20th level but with the equipment of a 10th level character either. At least not without someone getting killed (probably multiple people).That's why you remember that a 20th level character with 10th level WBL isn't a CR 20 character and shouldn't be expected to take down a CR21 anything.
But, if you're throwing out the CR system and ignoring it, then the group isn't a CR anything, nor is the dragon. The group is, most likely however, dragon kibble. :)
Note, not that you said anything about CR, just was posting two things in one post. Why I separated them into 2 paragraphs, one directed to you, and the other directed at the thread in general.
A thought about the whole "magic [items] is special" viewpoint, if you have the party face a whole group of warriors who each has a magic weapon, armor, etc, that train left a long time ago.
Any attempt at making "low magic" settings needs a holistic approach or I would recommend not bothering.
As for a party of 20th levels taking on a CR 21 dragon, are they all spellcasters?
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I think that would make a pretty good fight. High level monster should be scary afther all :),and the Pcs ave good chances to win .
I had to wing things for my Austin group as they were a bit overpowered.
I overshot a bit on the two or three dragons they encountered.
They had a healthy fear of dragons by the end of it. :)
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I think shallosould want sometime more like
"wow this item is really cool cause now I can do X"
instead of
"yay i Have another +1 to hit".
Funny, so do I. I would go about it by making the plus scale to the level of the character.
So instead of a magic +1 sword, you get a magic sword that grants +1/4 character levels, and has some other special effect.
I would probably do a +1/3 Character Level(Maximum +5) or even be nice and allow them to do +1/2 Character Level of Magic Abilities. So everyone gets a +10 weapon in the end.
I would simply introduce them as items that bond. Say you don the Belt it becomes a Tattoo on your body and advances with you.
So you might start with a Belt of CON +1 and it scales up as you level. DEX could be on the Hands. STR could be on the Wrists.
Then let them have lesser items that give minor bonuses or abilities. Such as Gloves of Storing.
A thought about the whole "magic [items] is special" viewpoint, if you have the party face a whole group of warriors who each has a magic weapon, armor, etc, that train left a long time ago.
Any attempt at making "low magic" settings needs a holistic approach or I would recommend not bothering.
As for a party of 20th levels taking on a CR 21 dragon, are they all spellcasters?
Well, typically, I dont have NPCs with much in the way of magic items.
Expendables are semi common. (potions, scrolls, spells in a can)
But just because an NPC is a 6th level cleric doesn't mean he's going to have +1 mace and +1 chain mail for the halibut.
That's just random stuff that gets turned into the grinder to turn out cash to buy something else... which above all else is the main goal (at least for us) avoid anything that's "Standard operating procedure" or grind.
I have been known to include a specific Weapons or Armour for my leaders.
I am now having gems being used as basic wealth.
& the Mercane Guild is being stolen...
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why do we keep feeding the troll?
im relatively new here, but ive learned 2 things:
Paladin Alignment threads are the devil, and never follow a shallowsoul thread
@shallowsoul: i understand your point of view. I personally feel that magic item crafting is a bit OP, but thats mostly because it no longer costs XP
but you make some bold assumptions about all games and how all people play. You concern yourself too much with what could happen and not enough with what does happen
the fact of the matter is this is a game where magic exists, and some players prefer the power creep, and prefer the nuances of it all. They like having a lot of magic. Golarion isn't Middle Earth, and as long as wizard is a base class, there wont be only 5 wizards in the world, and magic can and most likely will be abundant
so what? i like playing a game where i can have access to all the things i want eventually. cant i see that the point of playing through a 20 level character is eventually obtaining all the gear and magic items that i need to have the best character i can possibly have? I'm a paying customer too and i like having access to these things, and I don't think that the possibility of something being overpowered means that the game needs a total redesign that everyone has to adhere to
if you really don't like the mechanics that much, come up with your own system, if you like the way it works, share it with us and let us all enjoy your kind of game,
its not your message, its your demeanor that earns you the reputation that you have. i dont like to throw judgment around often, but you have been one of the most immature posters ive ever encountered on a forum. people are allowed to view things different than you do, and everyone is entitled to an opinion, even if its different from yours, and you need to stop forgetting that
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why do we keep feeding the troll?
Successful Troll know thousands of unsuccessful trolls in undeveloped countries. For only one post a day, fellow poster can feed a starving troll for months. Please do all that fellow poster can to save the trolls.
why do we keep feeding the troll?
It probably doesn't help that, as far as I can tell, the moderating staff doesn't use the banhammer or hand out any other punishments these days. Admittedly I don't watch the forums like a hawk, but I don't think I've ever seen the moderators use anything harsher than locking a thread and/or deleting a few inflammatory posts. When you've been dealing with a fairly infamous and unceasing troll for months, it might be time to at least upgrade the arsenal to stern warnings.
Admittedly, it's possible I'm working on incomplete information about how the mods handle things. Just saying what I've been seeing.
Back on topic, now.
I'd say that the general concept of magic item availability and such is meant to be a very loose abstraction of everything for sale within the bounds of an entire city/location, instead of representing all the goods stocked in a single magical mega-mart. The general availability rule covers everything from private collectors, impoverished nobles who need to sell off an heirloom or two, retiring adventurers, and yes, actual magic shops.
Is roleplaying all of those different possibilities out an option? Sure and sometimes it can be a lot of fun. However, sometimes you've only got a four-hour session, and people don't want to spend half of that time buying their gear. While I've certainly had some fun and memorable experiences with roleplaying out shopping, I've also had times when the GM ends up having us spend more time buying stuff than actually adventuring. Sometimes there's benefit to just saying "you find what you're looking for and buy, now let's move on."
Another point I'd raise on general item availability has to do with the whole loot/gold issue. If the PCs have loot they can't use or sell, or tons of gold but nothing they can actually buy with it ... well then they haven't gotten much of a reward, have they? Gold isn't all that useful if the players can't ever use it to buy what they need.
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Successful Troll know thousands of unsuccessful trolls in undeveloped countries. For only one post a day, fellow poster can feed a starving troll for months. Please do all that fellow poster can to save the trolls.
I always put my chips down where Successful Troll has the hot hand...claw...something!
Off-Topic:
You should probably make your posts about the topic and not an individual poster. If you find that most of your post discusses an individual poster, you might just want to scrap it and come back later. And yes, I do see the irony in me posting this. ;)
As for moderation, in a perfect world I'd love to see a poster get banned from a thread versus get banned totally from the site or have the thread closed.
On-Topic:
As suggested by master_marshmallow, if you are allowing spellcasters as a default PC choice, then I might suggest you are not embracing the whole magic is special concept. If you wanted really to go that route then it should be as hard to be a spellcaster as it was to be a paladin in older editions (or at least as hard as I perceive it was). Make players roll in order, 3d6, none of this drop 1's stuff, and you need at least a ... what? ... 16 in your main casting stat. If you don't get that, you don't get to play a spellcaster. And every time you cast a spell, you age 1 year/spell level. Why are elves so known for magic, they can afford to cast spells.
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Random totally contradictory thoughts;
On the one hand, I'm not a fan of items that just add a plus to something. +1 longsword? Boring. Flaming longsword or orcbane longsword? More interesting, IMO. Amulet of +1 natural armor, or ring of +1 protection, or headband of +2 wisdom? All considered *vital,* and yet all terribly boring. None of them actively do anything, they just sit there and enhance a pre-existing attribute. Deadly dull, and yet, by the nature of their existence, pretty much irreplaceable. I have no solution to this quandary, it's just something that bugs me.
On the other hand, I have zero interest in the versimilitude of magic item placement or frequency or 'commonality.' I would be *just fine* with allowing every PC to have X amount of gear, and when they 'level up,' it all magically dissolve into WBL worth of gold pieces and reform into whatever new gear they want. Shopping has never interested me, and visiting magic shops, or going on specific quests to find crafter X or component Y so that I can get that metamagic rod or whatever it is I want is just a pointless waste of time.
I'm sure that there are people who enjoy 'shopping expeditions,' or 'papers and paychecks,' but I'm not one of them.
Making PCs go get items that *should* already be balanced for them to have per the Wealth By Level guidelines seems like putting the actual game / story / campaign on hold just because the GM wants to make it harder for them to actually meet those WBL guidelines, when he should have, IMO, just flat out said up front 'I'm not using WBL and this is going to be a more Iron Heroes style game with less focus on magic items and more focus on your characters innate class / racial abilities.' (Which, of course, means that encounters will have to be designed and balanced around that philosophy, and not be crawling with creatures that can't be hurt by non-magic weapons, or that have save DCs so high that un-magic-item-enhanced casters can't affect them.)
The game has, over the years, sacrificed a lot of versimilitude for ease of play, and it's a whole 'nother argument whether that is a good thing or a bad thing. 'Leveling up' used to require stopping the game to go train, and with a party of four or five people all 'leveling up' at different times, that could mean stopping the action multiple times during a single segment of the story, as people rush off to learn new spells (or entire new levels of spells), to train and 'raise their attack bonus and saving throw and get new hit points' and whatever, which was a huge pain in the butt. Now 'leveling' happens 'off-screen' and a wizard who 'dings' in the middle of a dungeon-crawl just sort of mysteriously gains two new spells that he is assumed (per Skip Willaim's Sage Advice, back in 3E) 'to have been studying in his off-time, and just now figured out.' It's a bit of a hand-wave, but streamlines the game and ensures that the players are spending more time playing the game, and less time doing boring homework (more and more important, as we have so many more things we could be doing, other than sitting at a tabletop, in the age of the internet, encouraging us to maximize the amount of time we spend *having fun* at that tabletop and not 'doing maintenance').
Magic items and WBL hasn't quite gotten to that 'everything happens off-screen' stage yet, as training and 'leveling' has, but I wonder if it would be better that way.
Or, perhaps, we've sacrificed up too much versimilitude for convenience already, and 'training rules' had some merit that I've forgotten, as the nostalgia has faded and I've fully embraced the 'new way of doing things.' I could see arguments either way.
'Cause I'm contrary like that, and I disagree with no one so much as myself. :)
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Random totally contradictory thoughts;
On the one hand, I'm not a fan of items that just add a plus to something. +1 longsword? Boring. Flaming longsword or orcbane longsword? More interesting, IMO. Amulet of +1 natural armor, or ring of +1 protection, or headband of +2 wisdom? All considered *vital,* and yet all terribly boring. None of them actively do anything, they just sit there and enhance a pre-existing attribute. Deadly dull, and yet, by the nature of their existence, pretty much irreplaceable. I have no solution to this quandary, it's just something that bugs me.
On the other hand, I have zero interest in the versimilitude of magic item placement or frequency or 'commonality.' I would be *just fine* with allowing every PC to have X amount of gear, and when they 'level up,' it all magically dissolve into WBL worth of gold pieces and reform into whatever new gear they want. Shopping has never interested me, and visiting magic shops, or going on specific quests to find crafter X or component Y so that I can get that metamagic rod or whatever it is I want is just a pointless waste of time.
I'm sure that there are people who enjoy 'shopping expeditions,' or 'papers and paychecks,' but I'm not one of them.
Making PCs go get items that *should* already be balanced for them to have per the Wealth By Level guidelines seems like putting the actual game / story / campaign on hold just because the GM wants to make it harder for them to actually meet those WBL guidelines, when he should have, IMO, just flat out said up front 'I'm not using WBL and this is going to be a more Iron Heroes style game with less focus on magic items and more focus on your characters innate class / racial abilities.' (Which, of course, means that encounters will have to be designed and balanced around that philosophy, and not be crawling with creatures that can't be hurt by non-magic weapons, or that have save DCs so high that un-magic-item-enhanced casters can't affect them.)
The game has, over the years,...
Then static bonus items should be removed and build the math into the level progression. If you can't make it worthwhile to obtain certain magic items then they don't need to be there.
Then static bonus items should be removed and build the math into the level progression. If you can't make it worthwhile to obtain certain magic items then they don't need to be there.
This sounds like a good house rule shadowsoul - how would you do it? When would each bonuses be given out? At a specific level? At a point in the story? Would you try to build it into the campaign as part of the story, or just give out plain old boring mathematical bonuses when you felt they were appropriate?
Please explain to us how you would do this. You seem very keen to point to problems, but I'd like to know how you would go about solving this one? Heck, if you come up with an idea that's good enough, other people may give it a shot.
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Then static bonus items should be removed and build the math into the level progression. If you can't make it worthwhile to obtain certain magic items then they don't need to be there.This sounds like a good house rule shadowsoul - how would you do it? When would each bonuses be given out? At a specific level? At a point in the story? Would you try to build it into the campaign as part of the story, or just give out plain old boring mathematical bonuses when you felt they were appropriate?
Please explain to us how you would do this. You seem very keen to point to problems, but I'd like to know how you would go about solving this one? Heck, if you come up with an idea that's good enough, other people may give it a shot.
You have to be careful what you propose because we don't the thread sent to the homebrew section.
You have to be careful what you propose because we don't the thread sent to the homebrew section.Then static bonus items should be removed and build the math into the level progression. If you can't make it worthwhile to obtain certain magic items then they don't need to be there.This sounds like a good house rule shadowsoul - how would you do it? When would each bonuses be given out? At a specific level? At a point in the story? Would you try to build it into the campaign as part of the story, or just give out plain old boring mathematical bonuses when you felt they were appropriate?
Please explain to us how you would do this. You seem very keen to point to problems, but I'd like to know how you would go about solving this one? Heck, if you come up with an idea that's good enough, other people may give it a shot.
Then let me second the suggestion that was made to you on the last thread shallowsoul and ask you to go post your houserules to the suggestions/houserules forum. Because you keep bringing them up and people want to see them.