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At the end of the day, my attitude on magic items has always been this: "They should be cool."
The responsibility for this lies largely with the GM. My Fighter can receive a "Longsword +1", or he can receive "A masterfully-crafted longsword with filigrees burned into the blade and filled with a light ruby and onyx dust", and the GM can then tell me that it's a +1 sword.
As has been pointed out exhaustively in this thread and others, this "fluff" attempt to make a sword "special" becomes eye-rollingly ludicrous the third time you replace or upgrade your "masterfully-crafted longsword with filigrees burned into the blade and filled with a lilgth ruby and onyx dust (oh, btw, it's a +1 sword)" and second time you replace or upgrade your "ingeniously designed pebble-hammered mithril engraved field-captain breastplate with attached ruby-encrusted pauldrons (oh, btw, it's +2 armor)".
The reason magic items are not "special" in Pathfinder has nothing to do with the eloquence of the description of them. It's because if you don't replace or upgrade the items every three or four levels, you won't keep up with the CR system which assumes you will. And when you are upgrading or replacing a couple magic items every time you grab a chunk of loot, well, it's not long before you start to view magic items as necessary equipment instead of rare and awesome gifts from the magic gods.
In my own games I reserve those "special GM descriptions" for custom magic items that are intended to truly be special, or else for artifacts. I'm not going to wax poetic about every +1 longsword the PCs run across. I don't have the time, energy or interest in doing so.
Well your average untrained laborer can afford the normal 10 gp/month lifestyle with another 8-10 gold left over each month above and beyond his or her cost of living.
If the same applies to other lifestyles, that means that your average wealthy individual banks about 100+ gp / month, which means you could indeed purchase a minor but permanent magic item every couple of years; which seems pretty reasonable to me since these are permanent magic items.
An extravagant lifestyle would imply greater 1,000+ gp banked each month. Such a wealthy individual could purchase permanent magic items frequently (probably more frequently than your average adventurer). These are major purchases in comparison to the trivial costs of his lifestyle (trivial being the ones he is allowed to ignore or find around the house) but in keeping with someone who had enough wealth to do things like collect fancy cars (I had an uncle who did this). Such an individual could easily stockpile some cash over the year and purchase things up to the usual GP limit in a metropolis (16,000 gp).
Assuming a person saved for 10 years why would they blow it on +1 sword? What other permanent magic item would they want? Now assuming there is mundane permanent magic items wouldn't the medieval setting turn into a society much like we have today except instead of technology it's done by magic. I mean that type of scenario would lead to magic iphones everywhere.
This isn't a big problem or anything, just an observation. I just tend to igonre economics in my games. The only game this really game up was King Maker, my players and I were trying justify why magic economy worked at all.
It would take a normal untrained laborer (the McJob kind) ten to twenty years to purchase a +1 sword. Such an individual will probably stick to minor magic like buying the occasional magic medicine like a 50 gp potion of delay poison or lesser restoration.
A wealthy individual can afford most minor magic items without any real issues. At 100+ gp (keep in mind the plus as well) most minor items are within their grasp. But keep in mind that when I say minor, I'm not specifically referring to +1 swords. Wondrous items like feather tokens, elixirs, or expensive potions, everburning torches, etc.
Someone capable of living an extravagant lifestyle which is defined as the lifestyle of your common aristocrat? Well they likely have enough money to put into minor magic items like fancy permanent items like swords, armor, wondrous items, and perhaps fanciful things. Because again, most magic items aren't that expensive if you've got 1,000+ gp to set on fire every month.
Going back to an older article I wrote on my (infrequently updated) blog, if your average aristocrat overseeing a town of 500 people collects 5 gp / month per person in taxes then that aristocrat has about a +2500 gp income. That would be enough for his lifestyle, then paying guards and such, and then enough left over to purchase whatever was desired. Which may be magi items. Now in such a small community (500 people is on the bottom end of a small town) you probably won't find anything worth more than 5,000 gp reliably anyway. The aristocrat might make his town pretty awesome by having a few continual flame spells affixed to light-posts each month (inside of some lanterns so as to avoid errant dispel magics of course). :P
People who keep pointing to the rule book's high level description of what a "commoner" might make are completely ignoring what Ashiel has pointed out exhaustively, which is that the rules for skill or profession result in at minimum several times the earning potential for commoners from basic common vocations that commoners would be involved in, not to mention the vast merchant class of non-commoners who provide the goods and services for the PF economy, such as blacksmiths, hostelers, teamsters, bakers, butchers, ...
When you look at the actual opportunity for NPCs to create reasonable lifestyles using the skills and prices for items in the books, a shoemaker can buy a permanent magic item every few years, and it's not unlikely that eventually one of those magic items is going to be a sword or a bow or something. When you realize that is true also of the butcher, baker and candlestick maker, it's clear that even a relatively small village is going to have quite a few nice magic items after just a few years, and since these are heirloom items, some will have been handed down by ancestors as well.
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People who keep pointing to the rule book's high level description of what a "commoner" might make are completely ignoring what Ashiel has pointed out exhaustively, which is that the rules for skill or profession result in at minimum several times the earning potential for commoners from basic common vocations that commoners would be involved in, not to mention the vast merchant class of non-commoners who provide the goods and services for the PF economy, such as blacksmiths, hostelers, teamsters, bakers, butchers, ...
When you look at the actual opportunity for NPCs to create reasonable lifestyles using the skills and prices for items in the books, a shoemaker can buy a permanent magic item every few years, and it's not unlikely that eventually one of those magic items is going to be a sword or a bow or something. When you realize that is true also of the butcher, baker and candlestick maker, it's clear that even a relatively small village is going to have quite a few nice magic items after just a few years, and since these are heirloom items, some will have been handed down by ancestors as well.
Exactly! Heirlooms are another great point. Not every family needs to have five +1 swords, but many families probably have some sort of heirloom. I mean in real life things like armor and weapons were treasures handed down through the line. A suit of armor was an incredibly expensive and prized treasure and were often handed down from father to son.
In D&D/PF, magic items tend to be permanent and often fairly difficult to break on accident. The item purchase rules note that it is for the settlement. Not a single shop in a single settlement. You might not be able to purchase a +1 flaming longsword at Fizzy's Magical Mysteries (which specializes in frequently purchased consumables and minor wondrous items), but you might be able to go to a pawn shop or find some common fellow willing to part with it for a reasonable price.
Watching Pawn Stars is an excellent example of this. It's also the best example of why adventurers and such sell stuff at half price. Unless you're willing to part with it for cheap then you're not going to easily find a buyer for a lot of stuff. If you bring in a +3 sword from a dungeon, finding a buyer may be your next adventure, but you can unload the thing on someone quickly at 1/2 it's retail worth and walk away with money in your pocket. Then that guy checks in with some of his contacts and uses his professional know-how to move it into the hands of someone who wants a +3 sword.
Here is a question for the folks who think that the PF world is populated by an endless sea of indentured servants who barely can afford turnips or potatoes for dinner...
Let's just look at mundane equipment for a minute. Forget magic stuff entirely. Let's just look at mundane stuff.
Someone is making mundane items. Someone is making masterwork bows and selling them, right?
How long does it take to make a masterwork bow? Let's say it takes a month. Masterwork bows sell for at least 350 gold. Each masterwork bow nets at least 175 gold for the maker.
Assuming the bow maker can sell his wares, then in one year he can net 2,100g. Just from making and selling bows. (Toss in strength adjusted compound bows and this just goes up.)
Someone is making swords and doing the same thing.
Someone is making shields and doing the same thing.
Someone is making armor and doing the same thing.
Presumably someone is making alchemical items, some of which sell for 50 - 100g. Poisons are also expensive.
Even aristocrat clothing can run into the hundreds of gold. Someone is making that stuff, right? Some seamstress somewhere has developed a reputation and is able to buy the expensive silks and dyes required to make clothes for the royal court, and selling them for a 50% profit too, right?
In a decent sized city there must be dozens of skilled craftsmen and women making a fortune just selling fashionable or masterwork stuff.
With thousands of gold going into their pockets every year, surely SOME OF THEM are buying magic items.
Right?
Or where are all the masterwork bows and swords coming from?
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Silentman, either my master craftsman post crossed yours in the ether or else you simply ignored the existence of master crafstmen in your response. (Ah, I see that you responded separately now.)
They exist.
So do cobblers, seamstresses and bakers who cater to royalty and sell their wares for the inflated prices that aristocrats and royalty are said in the rules to spend on their daily expenses. Those aristcrats aren't spending that money on each other, they are spending it at shops staffed by the working class.
Sure your "average" cobbler might not make enough to buy a magic item every couple of years, but that cobbler who makes the king's boots dang sure will.
And even if the "average" cobbler takes 20 years to save up enough to buy a permanent magic item, if there are 20 of them in the city, that's one magic item sold to a cobbler every year.
I really struggle to see why people are so determined to try to twist the economy around so much to try to argue that magic items are impossible for non PCs to buy.
It literally makes no sense to me. If PC "adventurers" are the only people buying magic items, nobody but adventurers would make them because there would be no market for them.
And if you want to play a game that way, knock yourself out but that would be a game style that is pretty much in direct contradiction to what the PF game is designed to be.
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Someone is making these things, in theory, if only from the deductive perspective that adventurers acquire them, and didn't make them on their own.
It also matches common experience in the real world. "Masterwork" items are pretty much what distinguishes a master craftsman from a put-in-an-eight-hour-day craftsman. The difference in price between a common guitar and a guitar made by a master craftsman is usually a factor of 10 or 20. That's true of most things that people make and buy, from fishing rods to automobiles.
How often are those things sold? Statistically, adventurers are quite rare. If we approached this logically, most villages could go generations without seeing a wizard. The local pontiff isn't necessarily a Cleric. The head of the militia *might* qualify as a 1st, possibly 2nd level Fighter.
This is hard to justify based on the rules where a village will have several commoner, expert or aristocrats with more class levels than this. Again in the real world what you find is that the local priest has received years of training from their church before they are allowed to preach to the flock. That has been true for thousands of years. In the PF world that training would likely at the very least turn out a first level cleric. In general the more experienced and better trained priests move up to larger congregations in larger towns or cities. The same would be likely in a PF world, meaning that the head of a temple in a large city is likely a cleric with several class levels. The local militia leader almost certainly served in some military capacity where they received training, meaning they likely have levels in fighter at least.
To me when people say stuff like this it is completely at odds with my own experience with real people in the real world. People work and train to better themselves. In a world where all it takes to be a wizard is a slightly above average intelligence and a couple years of school, most villages would have someone who in the past 30 years or so had that training.
Masterwork items are typically made to order, they aren't laying around in the shop. Too often players forget that the open display of goods in the style of a supermarket is almost unheard-of for anything other than a weekly bazaar or farmers market. Wilfric the Blacksmith doesn't have horseshoes waiting around on pegs, he makes the shoes to order for a given horse.
Most "masterwork" items in the real world are not made to order. Some are, but those are typically 'custom made' items. Again I'll use guitars. Master luthiers make guitars for sale to the general public. I have one. It cost a lot of money. But it was not custom made. It's just your standard masterwork guitar. That same company makes custom guitars. While my guitar probably cost five times what an 'average' guitar cost, those custom made guitars cost ten to twenty times as much, or more.
Even with the sale of a masterwork item, one of two things is likely to happen with a 175g profit:1) The crafter retires after selling three to four of them, or
2) The crafter moves out of the small village into a large city where a year of work like this lets them retire back to the small village and live like local royalty.
How can you possibly claim that after a few sales a master craftsman will retire or move to a small village and live like royalty?
The vast majority of "master craftsmen" I have known LIVE FOR THEIR CRAFT. That's what makes them "master craftsmen". Most of them couldn't retire if they wanted to. They are driven to create. That's what they do.
Finally I find your analysis of this to be completely and totally at odds with pretty much every aspect of real and fantasy life that I know of. In order to make your case you've described human behavior that is completely at odds with what I know of how humans actually behave.
It's like you are reconstructing the human race to fit your notions of how common magic items would be while I am trying to decide how common they would be based on how humans actually live and act.
Masterwork items in my gameworld usually come from...well, masters. I go very loosely by the standards of the old guild system: first you're an apprentice, then a journeyman until you produce a masterwork; then you're a master.
Not every crafts-person makes it that far. Once they do they generally have a permanent shop somewhere where their wares will be purchased. There's more opportunity for sales in towns or cities, thus they go there.
I never seem to run into economical or statistical issues in my games with magic items. I don't hand them out like bottled water and when the players do have the opportunity to purchase them I try to make it a fun, interactive experience.
But if I was ever really pressed to quantify it, I suppose the economies in my games simply wouldn't be anwhere close to real or accurate. Most of the time I let my players just make their own items and call it a day.
And just for the record - I don't feel bad about using magic items in my games to subsidize character builds. My players aren't terribly tactical and sometimes need a little help getting to point where they're competitive with the monsters they're fighting. I don't have an issue at all with throwing them an item that gets them to that next level and my players seem to enjoy my games.
That's not to say items are the only way. Want some mystery/majesty in your game to basically do the same a +2 Strength Belt? Why not have an adept reward the fighter for a job well done with a Ritual of Storm Giant?
The PC must remain inert, their hand touching an ancient runestone for an hour during which time a massive storm rages overhead. Lightning strikes the stone fueling the magic as the adept chants a Bull's Strength over and over. At the height of it the character receives a blast through the stone inducing a feeling much like "The Quickening" from the Highlander movies. As the rite subsides, the PC's muscles are fueled by an unearthly energy, like a constant surge of adreneline; mechanically they get a permanent +2 to their strength (I know - this is more valuable than the temp bonus of an item but add whatever restrictions you want to bring it back down) but now the player has a somewhat unique experience and you get to avoid the magic shoppe.
Bottom line, as I say in many of these threads: you are your own game's advocate. Make your game what YOU want it to be and collectively craft your campaign in the image of the people involved.
Hey, y'know my last post gives me an idea (maybe this is a different thread of discussion): does anyone use other delivery methods than magic items for adding the mechanical bonuses that some baseline magic items do?
I've got some custom rites like the one above I roll out from time to time. In a campaign a few years ago I used a magical source kind of like the old 3.5 stuff - a spring that, if utilized properly grants a 1 mo bonus to all saves.
Do the folks in this thread who don't like magic shoppes use these in your games? If so...how?
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That may be where we'd have to agree to peaceably disagree; it doesn't sit at odds with my own experiences with people, which is largely this: they work because they have to, not because they want to. People who try to win the lottery often do so with the intent of not working for someone ever again, though out of boredom they may eventually pursue their own business goals. Others would merely retire and live off the money they have, and what interest that money and possible investments can generate for them.
It is very, very hard for me to express how sad I find this comment to be.
It definitely does not describe the people I know. Now, I admit that I work in a fairly demanding profession with high expectations, but this also does not describe any of my friends, all of whom have pursued additional training and education well beyond what was "needed" to get a job.
Even if your statement is true of a majority of people, it only takes a small minority of people to have the desire to better themselves and make a future for their progeny for my analysis to be correct. Even if only 10% of the population believes in the pursuit of excellence, that would be enough to create the results I have described.
Again, wow. How sad if this were true. I am glad that I believe it is not.
I liked 4E's "residuum" concept, which makes it more convenient to construct magical items from the wreckage of "useless" items, but that's only really useful if the party has an item crafter to begin with. In general, I've found the best system for me in order to avoid a "magic emporium" is to just be more intentional with placement of items in the adventure itself.
I like residuum too. I also like 4e's ability to move an enchantment from one item to another compatible item.
I'm real close to adopting house rules like that to my own world.
I liked 4E's "residuum" concept, which makes it more convenient to construct magical items from the wreckage of "useless" items, but that's only really useful if the party has an item crafter to begin with. In general, I've found the best system for me in order to avoid a "magic emporium" is to just be more intentional with placement of items in the adventure itself.I like residuum too. I also like 4e's ability to move an enchantment from one item to another compatible item.
I'm real close to adopting house rules like that to my own world.
I have the Enchantment Moving but I haven't looked to hard on Residuum...
We tend to surround ourselves with those who match our own perspectives. We also tend to have difficulty understanding variant perspectives. I hate to pull out dimestore psychology here, but the Oracle's statement from the Matrix films holds true: "We can't see past the choices we don't understand."
Silentman. Here's the difference between your and my perspective.
Your assertions are that it would be very rare for there to be non-PCs in the PF world who would pursue excellence to the point that there would be a significant number of master craftsmen, merchants, traders, money-changers, entertainers or other non-royalty who would have amassed enough wealth to drive a magic item economy.
For that to be true it would mean that pursuit of excellence and the drive for bettering oneself would have to be very, very rare. In a town of 5,000 people, for your view of the world to be accurate it would be necessary for less than 1% of people to be driven to succeed.
For my view of the world to be true all it would take would be 5% or so. Even 1% in a town of 5,000 people would mean 50 people working hard enough to manage to become "well off" enough to buy expensive luxuries like a magic sword.
So, for each of us to use our own real world experiences, that would mean that in your case less than 1 in a hundred people you meet and interact with would be hard-driving, success oriented people. Less than 1 in a hundred.
If that really does describe your social circles, well, I just don't know what to say.
I will say that in my social circles the number is much greater than 5%. In fact I would say it is more than 50%.
And since I see that many people who are driven to succeed, I know they actually exist. In significant numbers. I'm not making them up. There is no statistical way that I just happened to have run into every single success-oriented person who lives in the USA.
And I also know that my crowd is not nearly as driven as some other crowds.
Most "masterwork" items in the real world are not made to order. Some are, but those are typically 'custom made' items. Again I'll use guitars. Master luthiers make guitars for sale to the general public. I have one. It cost a lot of money. But it was not custom made. It's just your standard masterwork guitar. That same company makes custom guitars. While my guitar probably cost five times what an 'average' guitar cost, those custom made guitars cost ten to twenty times as much, or more.
I have an uncle (named Luke, which is somewhat ironic, given his full name is Luther, and he's a Luthier, from which Luther is derived). He builds custom guitars, mandolins, banjos, and other instruments. He does do custom work, as in, someone comes in and says 'I want a 12 string box guitar made with oak wood, mother of pearl inlay, black and orange varnish, and my name in pearl on the upper side of the box), but that's maybe one or two a year. What he does to make money is he makes hand-crafted, master-work mandolins, guitars and banjo's for Gibson. Gibson, in turn, sells them to musicians. He can crank out a custom job in a couple of months, or a MW Gibson in a few weeks (they're all built to one standard, so he can assembly line them in his shop). All made by him, all by hand. It's easier to make 30 MW items of the same type, shape, color, etc than two custom MW instruments.
Now, I call them MW, because he's been doing it 35 years, and Gibson doesn't agree to buy top of the line instruments from just anyone and allow them to put the Gibson name on it. He get's 5 digit figures for his custom work.
mdt, I know a couple of luthiers and my experience matches yours very well. I also know a guy who makes "masterwork" fly rods. He does custom work but most of his rods are sold under a well-known high end brand name.
In a sense the fly rod guy views his custom work as his "bonus" and his reliable income comes from his "normal" rods. The reality is that there are a lot more customers buying high end fly rods from catalogs or sporting good stores than there are those who want to actually sit down and work out a custom rod. The market for custom work is much smaller and less reliable.
Silent, again, even if they are a minority, it only takes a small minority of them to exist at all for my analysis to be more accurate than yours. And I think they clearly DO exist in numbers greater than required to refute your view of a "typical" PF world.
Also, in my opinion you are again redefining experience and human nature to argue your point. You continue to make assertions about how people would be likely to act that I find to be absolutely and totally at odds with my own experience.
I can't help but think you've reached the point that you just want to win a debate point and so you'll find a way to have the "facts" be whatever you think will support your position.
You are right, we'll just have to disagree.
Meh,
I'm in the middle of you two. I work because I have to. Not that I don't like my job, I do. But if I won the lottery, I'd go back to school because I like it. I'd also go back to teaching college, because I liked that (I just couldn't make any money at it). I'd also go back to trying to write (got published once, but couldn't afford to pursue it).
So in a game world, I'd get money, 'retire' and then do all the things I liked doing (which in this case, involve a lot of work, but doesn't seem like work) and are also beneficial for society (at least, I believe teaching and creativity is beneficial, I'm assuming everyone on the thread agrees or you wouldn't waste your time on an RPG). :)
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At least you were considerate enough to use the phrase "in my opinion". I can accept it as an opinion, even if I don't agree with it. My own experiences are seemingly contrary to yours, so who would objectively be right, if either of us?
I think it's important to be right in a discussion; I rarely enter into a discussion of opposing viewpoints without pre-existing likelihood of my own correctness. I'm occasionally proven wrong. Most people, in my own experience, aren't up to doing that, however.
When they are, I don't tell people I've changed my views, I merely start arguing for the altered viewpoint.
But the discussion here isn't "wrong" or "right", merely "what are your thoughts on the presence of 'magic shops' in the game?"
Silentman, the thing you consistently are not getting is that my personal experience totally refutes your argument. Your experience does not refute mine.
You are saying that there aren't enough people who pursue excellence and seek to better themselves for a magic item economy to work in Pathfinder. I have shown that the required percentage of such people can be ridiculously low, as low as 1% or less, and a magic item economy is perfectly plausible (50 or so wealthy NPCs in a town of 5,000, 500 or so in a city of 50,000).
Your response was that such people were much more rare than that.
My personal experience is that they are much more common than that. Unless there is some sort of astronomically unlikely statistical anomaly that I have personally met every single success driven person in a couple thousand mile radius, my assertion that more than 1% of people are success driven is proven to be true.
Or to put it another way, absence of evidence (your personal experience with your social groups) does not constitute evidence of absence. While evidence of existence (my personal experience with my social groups) IS proof of existence.
That's the difference.
you know i am a big fan of the master craftsman with the ability to make a magic sword or armor without being able to cast.
If I was able to pass by a small hamlet with the metal worker banging away, and be able to strike a realtionship with this guy out in the middle of no mans land that has the unique talent to forge a magic weapon or two.
It keeps the land from being dotted with mid level spell casters for no other reason than "it's a requirement to make this stuff"
I also like the idea that the witch you have been buying stuff from for years amuses herself in her off time with her smell children and cook people hexes and someday you find out....
Man he have to stop her!
b-b-but I buy all my best stuff from her!
dood! she's cooking children!
Well can you be absolutely sure they aren't BAD children??
To try to put this in statistical terms, here are some facts and figures.
Worldwide roughly .5% of the human population has a net worth of $1,000,000 or more. As best as I can determine, the average net worth worldwide is about $5,000. That means .5% of the population has 200 times or more of the net worth of an average person. about 1/10 of those would have 2,000 times the net worth of an average person.
If we use that as a guide, in a town of 5,000, 25 would have 200 times the wealth of the average citizen, and 2 or 3 would have 2,000 times the wealth of an average citizen.
So even if the average "wealth" of a PF commoner was a single gold piece per year, a town of 5,000 would have 2 or 3 citizens wealthy enough to buy a magic sword each year.
I think we can agree that 1g/year is less than the average wealth of even a commoner in PF.
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Silentman, we are dealing with a fantasy world, but my argument is based only on the notion that people in a fantasy world would still operate more or less the way they do in the real world.
Yours and my debate has centered wholly on how people operate in the real world.
If you are going to argue that people in the fantasy world would be far less likely to be driven to succeed at life, you will need to explain to me why you feel that would be true.
Otherwise your argument has just become "because... dragons".
Our debate has centered on that, yes, but we haven't reached consensus even on how people operate in the real world. To me, I feel that consensus between you and I on that issue isn't likely to occur; I think its likelihood probably flew out the window the instant you said something which amounted to "My experience is more right because it's my experience." ;)
If that's what you think I said, that explains why you haven't yet understood what I really said.
What I am saying is that if your experience AND my experience are both accurate, then my conclusion is supported and your conclusion is refuted.
The only way you can continue to claim that your conclusion is as valid as my conclusion is to argue that my experience is invalid. Whether your experience is valid or not is irrelevant because your experience does not prove nor disprove the conclusion.
My experience is that people are more driven to success than you say that they are.
I showed statistically that worldwide wealth distribution matches my own experience more than it matches yours.
If we take the mark of a net worth of $500,000 as being "wealthy" then roughly 2% of the population of the world is "wealthy." This number is pretty well supported from multiple sources. ("Wealthy" here being explicitly defined as having 100 or more times the wealth of an average person. Yes 100 or more times the wealth.)
So if wealth is in any way a result of people being driven to succeed, then it's pretty fair to say that a figure of 2% of people being driven is pretty reasonable. (Just a note here. I still say the actual figure is higher than 2% but not all driven people are successful. Some of them fail. In fact most of them probably fall short of their goals. But 2% making it, is pretty reasonable.)
And I have shown how in Pathfinder that figure would produce enough wealthy people to support a magic item economy.
So not only my own experience, but actual statistical facts support my contention Silentman.
Anyway, when it gets to this point it's clear that facts, figures and logic aren't going to win the day.
I have numerous Blacksmiths with the Master Craftsmen Feat. I am reworking them into my new setup for the Item Creation Feats.
Pendagast... Did you really have to say that. Also if you wanna help I am planning on a Bronze/Stone/Bone Age Campaign inspired by our off-topic discussion in one of the Middle Earth threads... If you wanna help out.
I have numerous Blacksmiths with the Master Craftsmen Feat. I am reworking them into my new setup for the Item Creation Feats.
Pendagast... Did you really have to say that. Also if you wanna help I am planning on a Bronze/Stone/Bone Age Campaign inspired by our off-topic discussion in one of the Middle Earth threads... If you wanna help out.
sure i guess.... All my thoughts were compiled around a Turok/Dino world...not sure where you are going with your world.