Not talking mechanically, but rather in the fluff. I don't recall the idea that Half Elves are loners being a big deal in 1st or 2nd edition DND, but it's wallpapered all over the Pathfinder fluff. Where'd it come from? Was that a Dragonlance thing or something? Or was it there all along and I just missed it before? Tolkein didn't make a big deal out of it I don't think, and I don't believe the original Norse did either.
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Because they're too short lived for elves and too long lived for humans. They don't really belong anywhere.
Tolkein didn't make a big deal out of it [..]
Didn't Tolkien's half-elves basically have to choose between the elf world and the mortal world?
But yeah, I think it's mostly a Tanis racket.
Also, Tolkien and Norse mythology are bad places to look for further examples. Tolkien seemed to have only scant references to half-elves (e.g. the future child of Aragorn and Arwyn). Aragorn himself was from an unusually long-lived (sub-)race of men, but he was naturally a loner to begin with, rather than from any sense of racial isolation. Likewise, I'm unfamiliar with any Norse myths about half-elves (most that I recall are about the gods).
No, Aragorn was 1/2 elf he was the lineage of elf and human. He wasn't long-lived human, he wasn't human fully. He just looked human so no one questioned it.
The only humans in LotR party kept dying.
Aragorn was mostly human, with a minute fraction of elven ancestry from being a descendant of Elrond's brother Elros. The exact amount of such ancestry would be impossible to calculate, as many of his ancestors in the royal line probably married fellow descendants of Elros. That ancestry gave him superior longevity (he was around 90 at the time of the events of Lord of the Rings, and lived to be 210 -- actually quite a bit longer than his immediate ancestors lived).
He was 88 when the War Of The Ring occurred.
He was simply descended from a line of Elf-Blooded Humans.
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So you're telling me that Half Elves are loners for the same reason that Drow fight with two scimitars?
:)
Now that's a quality response to the question, sir. Thanks for your input.
Any chance we ever get Greyhawk for Pathfinder?
Being unique?
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Dunno about 1st or 2nd edition, but I'd say the source is probably closer to real-world sociology than anything. Think about it this way. From an elven perspective, you have someone that doesn't quite belong with the clan, yet still resembles them, so they won't accept the fully. From the human perspective you have something that's almost human but not quite, which might trigger something called the "Uncanny Valley Effect" (referring to the fact that if you graphed a person's approval rating of a thing as its resemblance to a human being increased, the graph enters a sudden dip when you get to the point just 1 point away from "identical to human") thereby causing them to be rejected by humans as well.
Dunno. They aren't one race or another, so they just don't fit in with either very well, so they end up being alone most of the time. Also, Pathfinder half-elves aren't so lonely if i remember correctly. Aren't there entire cities composed of half-elves (there's one in Kyonin, i know that for sure), and as far as I can tell from most of the Golarion-lore I've read, no one treats half-elves very poorly that often.
Half-Elves are sort of Mediators between the Elves and Humans. And I think in some regions Half-Orcs are Mediators between some Orc Clans and Humans.
So I think it is more of Half-Elf PCs that tend to take on the Lone Bastard Character Archetype.
My campaign worlds tend to have Cities and Villages composed primarily of Half-Elves and Half-Orcs.
... but I'd say the source is probably closer to real-world sociology than anything. Think about it this way. From an elven perspective, you have someone that doesn't quite belong with the clan, yet still resembles them, so they won't accept the fully. From the human perspective you have something that's almost human but not quite, which might trigger something called the "Uncanny Valley Effect" (...) thereby causing them to be rejected by humans as well.
That would work well if half-elves were sterile, but half-elves mating together do have half-elvish offspring. Half-elfish children would be raised no differently than other long-lived fantasy races.
Again sociologically speaking, we could expect half-elves to gather together and form a community of their own, even if these communities are small, ghettoized and isolated. Over the time (and time tends to be loooong in fantasy), this should have led to societies of half-elves (as long as they are not persecuted and killed, but most settings don't seem to take that route).
This has happened several times all over the world (including the persecution). Closer to home for Canadians like me, the best example is the metis of Manitoba; not quite French, not quite native American (from which Tanis half-elven was heavily inspired IIRC).
Because they're too short lived for elves and too long lived for humans. They don't really belong anywhere.
^this
Or to paraphrase the Dungeon Bastard - they represent the sub-optimal watering-down of the gene pool. I mean, who wouldn't hang their head in shame and hit the road?
/I love Half-elves, always have, and it pains me that they're multi Favored Class ability is just full of suck and not up to par.
Okay, here's a tougher question ..
Since the stigma of being a Half Elf stems in some form or fashion from DND literature from the 1970s, how much of it is rooted in a comparison to interracial marriages of the time? Nobody really thinks twice about interracial (black/white) unions today, at least not in most regions of the country, but back then it was a much bigger deal.
Maybe a little real-world sociology bleed-over perhaps?
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Again sociologically speaking, we could expect half-elves to gather together and form a community of their own, even if these communities are small, ghettoized and isolated. Over the time (and time tends to be loooong in fantasy), this should have led to societies of half-elves (as long as they are not persecuted and killed, but most settings don't seem to take that route).... but I'd say the source is probably closer to real-world sociology than anything. Think about it this way. From an elven perspective, you have someone that doesn't quite belong with the clan, yet still resembles them, so they won't accept the fully. From the human perspective you have something that's almost human but not quite, which might trigger something called the "Uncanny Valley Effect" (...) thereby causing them to be rejected by humans as well.That would work well if half-elves were sterile, but half-elves mating together do have half-elvish offspring. Half-elfish children would be raised no differently than other long-lived fantasy races.
I think it depends on the setting, but in many settings half elves, such as Tanis are literally one of the only ones that are around, or at least the only ones in the settlement. In this case, a good real world analogy would be the kid with Aspergers or Adhd; who thinks not quite like everyone else, has feelings that are different from the people around them, may be very talented but are 'out of tune' with their peers. They have to figure out how to express those talents, find mentors, and generally go off the beaten path and maybe be outcast/marginalized in the process.
I thing logically and under this paradign, you would have more half elves on the road, as adventerers, wanderers, etc.
This has happened several times all over the world (including the persecution). Closer to home for Canadians like me, the best example is the metis of Manitoba; not quite French, not quite native American (from which Tanis half-elven was heavily inspired IIRC).
Thing, is both interpretations make sense, depending on what world you picture your half elf growing up in. If she is the only half in the village the way I think a majority of half elves are in Golarion do, the loner motif makes sense.
On the other hand, you have the communities in Kyonin which are also cannon, which resemble the 'metis' paradign you're talking about.Basically, these two views aren't mutually exclusive.
Half-Elves are sort of Mediators between the Elves and Humans. And I think in some regions Half-Orcs are Mediators between some Orc Clans and Humans.
Also, I think there is a reaction against the 'social' half elf motif of 3.5/4.0 which, bluntly, was one of the worst abortions of fluff/mechanics in the history of D&D. The 'social half elf made no sense. You could picture a few such half elves doing this, but all, as race? Looking at half elves from the well thought out Aspergers/Adhd or the Metis background, it is utterly blew chunks past what Sheyln could love and deeper then Rovagug has to dig to destroy the world.
All the best,
Kerney
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Okay, here's a tougher question ..
Since the stigma of being a Half Elf stems in some form or fashion from DND literature from the 1970s, how much of it is rooted in a comparison to interracial marriages of the time? Nobody really thinks twice about interracial (black/white) unions today, at least not in most regions of the country, but back then it was a much bigger deal.
Maybe a little real-world sociology bleed-over perhaps?
You're wrong if you think that there isn't still prejudice against interracial marriages. It's not as blatant as it once was, but it's not dead.
Actually it's you who's trying to bleed over. You're projecting 21st century values in a culture that's supposed to be modeled after the 12th-13th century.
He's not projecting, he's considering that writers (plus GMs and players) might be (unconciously) influenced by the society in which they live.
That is a pretty common idea.
Also, I don't think the game of 'decide which historical period most closely matches with the game world' is an especially fruitful one.
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Not talking mechanically, but rather in the fluff. I don't recall the idea that Half Elves are loners being a big deal in 1st or 2nd edition DND, but it's wallpapered all over the Pathfinder fluff. Where'd it come from? Was that a Dragonlance thing or something? Or was it there all along and I just missed it before? Tolkein didn't make a big deal out of it I don't think, and I don't believe the original Norse did either.
Likely Tanis half-elven of DragonLance.
For Me it was because they is Plague Elves (a transitional group allowing diseases to transfer between Humans and Elves). Thus the Half Elf experiences a degree of social ostracism at the hands of one group or the other (or both). They are the Chasm and the Bridge that separates Humans and Elves when they should be the Union.
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Okay, here's a tougher question ..
Since the stigma of being a Half Elf stems in some form or fashion from DND literature from the 1970s, how much of it is rooted in a comparison to interracial marriages of the time? Nobody really thinks twice about interracial (black/white) unions today, at least not in most regions of the country, but back then it was a much bigger deal.
Maybe a little real-world sociology bleed-over perhaps?
Attitudes toward interacial couples vary widely among regions. While I live in an area that is fairly tolerant. I've visited areas that are much less so.
I think human/elven relationships very often resemble the positive stereotype in interacial relationships. Human and elves both 'good' races and is portrayed in some ways like as caucasian/asian wedding; grandpa from China might grumble into his cups but most of the people would be happy to see two middle class kids from the suburbs tie the knot.
This is reflected in some of the lit in D&D which shows loving interacial couples.
But just as often, human/elf relations are just as often portrayed as a one-off relationship leaving a single parent behind, which has it's own negitive stereotypes.
Then you think of the kids who aren't quite like other kids, and like ADHD/Aspergers analogy I made earlier comes into play. Such kids will 'be out of step' with their peers and as a consequence be in a position to be abused or be labeled as wrong/bad and generally have a harder time making their way in the world.
On the other hand, the half orc resembles more of our dark side feelings toward interracial relationships. This is almost always portrayed as something simular to the stereotype of the n-word black from the the ghetto coming to ravish our precious little daughter, make her life a living hell, beat and abuse her and give her ugly wrong colored babies who won't be much better then him. Also, there is a healthy dose of Orcs/negros want human/white women that is very much in keeping with early 20th century stereotypes.
Half orcs are seldom portrayed as coming from loving homes. I can think of once in published stuff and once when I wrote a character background...and in my case they were drugged/under love potions and kicked out of Kaer Magna for moral turpitude. Even the redeemed orcish paladin is usually raised an orphan.
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You're also making the common assumption that many erroneously do, that Gygax got much of his setting ideas from Tolkien, whereas he was far more influenced by the likes of Fritz Leiber and Moorcock.
I know Tolkien has been quoted as saying folks like Robert E. Howard, Poul Anderson, Moorcock, Liebert, etc were greater influences on D&D. That always struck me as "He doth protest too much." I do think he had multiple influences. But if you read Tolkien, and you look at the early editions of D&D, that seems like a silly assertion. It seems more like a smart guy, who had been sued by the Tolkien estate for blatantly ripping off 'hobbits,' avoding more such lawsuits in the future.
In a totally unsolicited opinion:
I love the Tolkien world and creation(books are a bit sluggish upon re-reading), and Moorcock's eternal champion saga is simply epic. I've struggled re-reading Lieber's Fafhrd and Gray Mouser series: the words don't flow.
He had a few flaws, but Robert E. Howard is simply the best sword and sorcery/fantasy author ever. The fact that he was spinning the tales he did circa 1930 - almost before the genre was even invented, makes the stories even more amazing.
I've never seen that passage. How does he answer? I have read elsewhere, such as Paradigm Press' "Eldest Sons" is that full Elves DO tend to refer to Half-Elves as "Half-Humans", so the name Half-Elves is one for our Human perspective. (It also avoids confusion because if we used the term Half-Human, it wouldn't be clear if we were referring to a Half-Elf, or a Half-Orc.There is a point in the Chonicles when Riverwind asks Tanis why his name is Tanis Half-Elven, rather then Tanis Half-Human. It's one of the first times Riverwind, an outcast human tries to understand and accept the half-elf, and I personally think that sums it up very nicely.
His response if I remember correctly was that half-human often means in some way crippled.
Actually Gygax, Arneson, and one of Tolkien's Family Members became comrades when the Tolkien's Estate sued over the Hobbit, Orc, & Goblin names.
The Family member helped prove that Orc(Ork), Goblin, and Hobbit were all based on Myths in the real world meaning they are fair usage.
Sadly, TSR only one on the Orc & Goblin accounts as their depictions had significant differences from Tolkiens but Hobbits were deemed to similar to Tolkien's.
The same basis can be used to allow "Beholders" & "Mind Flayers" into Pathfinder. One could simply change the names and be safe.
I know Tolkien has been quoted as saying folks like Robert E. Howard, Poul Anderson, Moorcock, Liebert, etc were greater influences on D&D.Certainly not J.R.R. Tolkien, unless he was still writing and doing interviews well after his death, as he died in 1973...
Hmm, it was Arthur Conan Doyle, not Tolkien, who was an ardent spiritualist, so that wasn't it...
Oops. Sorry. Typo. I meant Gygax has commented on his influences in D&D.
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Well some hybrids aren't Sterile. In fact only ~30% of all known Hybrids are completely Sterile (In the sense of: None have been found that can produce an offspring). ~50% of Hybrids it is simply a majority of them are Sterile. and the final ~20% aren't Sterile unless some strange genetic condition is present.
Now a lot of Hybrids do suffer defects. This is represented in my campaigns as a Half-X Race having a low survival rate do to genetic defects unless they are born of 2 identical Half-X Parents. So a Elf & Human might produce Half-Elf Twins were 1 is Sterile do to Genetic Defects and 1 who isn't. The 1 who isn't sterile mates with another Half-Elf and they have a Half-Elf Child who is perfectly healthy.
Now the Defects might be Blindness, Lameness, Deafness, Muteness, etc.
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You're also making the common assumption that many erroneously do, that Gygax got much of his setting ideas from Tolkien, whereas he was far more influenced by the likes of Fritz Leiber and Moorcock.
I know Tolkien has been quoted as saying folks like Robert E. Howard, Poul Anderson, Moorcock, Liebert, etc were greater influences on D&D. That always struck me as "He doth protest too much." I do think he had multiple influences. But if you read Tolkien, and you look at the early editions of D&D, that seems like a silly assertion. It seems more like a smart guy, who had been sued by the Tolkien estate for blatantly ripping off 'hobbits,' avoding more such lawsuits in the future.
Actually it's usually Gygax that was the one who gave that answer when it was put up to him. For the backing of that answer, I would suggest that you look at the rather extensive Bibliography that was included in the back of the First Edition Player's Handbook.
I've read Tolkien, and I've read a LOT more than Tolkien. And I would strongly agree that while Gary took a few handy things off of Tolkien, he took practically nothing when it came to putting up his settings and the overall atmosphere of Greyhawk and the dungeons that were published for AD+D. (nor Basic D+D for that matter) Outside of hobbits, rangers, and one demon type, I really don't see any Tolkienish influences in Gygax's work itself. There are a couple of Tolkien flavor bits that were put in by other authors in the process, but the original pre-FR D+D was always considerably more Leiber, Burroughs, and Moorcock in flavor.
DnD's take on Elves, Orcs and Goblins is very Tolkein.
Considering that pre-Tolkein those were essentially interchangable terms for the same thing.
The game also lifted ents, I'm sure there is more.
In any case, this article is the only thing I've seen which Gygax said about Tolkein.
Oh-oh! I am going to be in trouble from the get-go! I loved THE HOBBIT, read it once to myself, then about three or four times aloud to my children.
As a Swords & Sorcery novel fan from way back–I read my first Conan yarn about 1948, was a fan and collector of the pulp SF and fantasy magazines since 1950, I was not as enamored of The Trilogy as were most of my contemporaries. While I loved Bombadil, the Nazgul too, the story was too slow-paced for me.
How did it influence the D&D game? Whoa, plenty, of course. Just about all the players were huge JRRT fans, and so they insisted that I put as much Tolkien-influence material into the game as possible. Anyone reading this that recalls the original D&D game will know that there were Balrogs, Ents, and Hobbits in it. Later those were removed, and new, non-JRRT things substituted–Balor demons, Treants, and Halflings.
Indeed, who can doubt the excellence of Tolkien’s writing? So of course it had a strong impact on A/D&D games. A look at my recommended fantasy books reading list in the back of the original DUNGEON MASTERS GUIDE will show a long list of other influential fantasy authors, though.
at least not in most regions of the country
Any particular country? Or is it more like "all of them"?
;)
A MerpCon speech on Tolkien RPGs. The speaker is John Rateliff, who qualifies as a Tolkien expert...
As I said earlier, I know there were many influences on D&D. But I like the speaker's line: For, no matter how much Gygax might have later denied it, Tolkien's fingerprints are all over original D&D
And if you read the whole thing, I do think it was Saul Zaentz driving the Tolkien-property lawsuits. He probably dealt with the Tolkien property the way he ran Fantasy Records. Leopards don't change their spots.
John Fogerty even wrote a song about Zaentz. Saul sued him so Fogerty changed the name to Vanz.
MERP: even though they weren't D&D rules, I loved this stuff back in the day. The maps!
Also, what really bothers me about half-elves is that they are not sterile. In nature if a horse and a donkey mate then the mule is sterile.
As Azaelas mentioned, not all hybrids are sterile (dog and wolf for example) and other hybrids of the same genus usually see a reduction of fertility, but offspring are not impossible.
The zebra-horse hybrid for example is sustainable as a race, but I'm pretty sure their fertility rate is inferior to that of horse-horse or zebra-zebra. Same goes for mules; I've seen several 3/4 horse - 1/4 donkeys whereas a mule was bred to a (horse) mare.
I don't think it's that shocking to have fertile half-elves; even if they have a lower fertility rate than humans.
Thanks... Now I am wondering what a Zorse would be in Pathfinder...
If anything wouldn't it be a Pony? Wait... Aren't Zorses smaller than even a Pony?