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I am on record as not being a fan of either of these items.
Metamagic Rods are functionally purchased feats. Only better since you don't have to prep the spell in advance. Items should not obsolete feats, IMHO>
Pearls of Power overcome a class limitation...why? To what end? The whole reason Sorcerers lag in spell progression is because of the advantage of being able to recast the same spell...which is overcome by this item.
So what would be the problem if they were removed from the game, as I want to check in before I officially house rule them out to see if there is any reason to leave them in.
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How many times per day can a fighter swing a sword?
Do magic items allow fighters to overcome class limitations?
As long as house rules are being implemented should we address both of these concerns?
The developers have stated that in general magic items give non-casters new options. These same magic items extend the functional adventuring day of casters by allowing them to use abilities already available without expending limited spellcasting resources. Two very different benefits. The magic items you are complaining about perform in this role as intended.
Lesser Rods and low level pearls mitigate away from the 15 minute adventuring day (a good thing). It's the greater rods and higher level pearls that you have to watch out for.
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Those are very expensive tools. equivlent in cost to a decent set of magic armor or a fairly powerful sword.
The Greater Metamagic Rod of Quickening is slightly more expensive than a +9 sword.
Yes, and it allows you to cast two spells in one round, without a taking a feat or choosing which spells in advance.
Not having that in the game would cause what problems?
For example, using your comparison removing swords from the game would be a problem for the game.
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You waited two hours for responses. On a Monday night.
This thread is in no way a valid reason to remove them from the game. As a matter of fact, they'd likely never do such a thing because of a single thread, anyway.
No one really cares what you do or do not like. Houserule that they don't exist in your game. There is literally no reason to remove them from Pathfinder as a whole.
Just for the record, spontaneous casters have the runestones (or whatever) for more slots.
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It will reduce the caster power at mid to high level, which I do not oppose too, however the reduction as you propose is to drastic.
Why?
This isn't a troll, this is an honest question.
You can do all of the metamagic stuff, with feats. You just can't buy feats to carry around with you and apply on the fly.
And pearls of power completely undermine the very limiting factor associated with prepared casters.
Would casters be underpowered without them? I don't think so. Does it add flavor because it replicates some classic trope I am unaware of?
Every time I look at them, they feel like something that a crappy 3pp would put out. I can't figure out what they add other than power creep, they make metamagic feats more or less pointless and they destroy the advantages of spontaneous casting, which is the reason spontaneous casters are a level behind.
What bad would come of removing them from the game?
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First, the 15 minute adventuring day is half a myth. 15 minutes at the table does not mean it was only 15 minutes in-game. Kingmaker alone can have hours of in-game travel, for instance.
Let's take the idea of removing caster friendly items even further, and get rid of wands, scrolls, staves, and potions, all of which allow for more 'spellcasting' than is normally available. The headbands that increase mental ability scores are okay, because they have the belts as counterparts.
Now that I think about it, that might not be such a bad idea for a short campaign...
I digress. The fact is that metamagic rods and pearls of power help the rest of the party just as much as they help the spellcaster using them. Used your last prayer in the last fight? Good thing you have a pearl. Want to put as much hurt on that red dragon as you can before it kills everyone? Thank the gods for the Intensify Metamagic rod.
There are a LOT of items that essentially buy you a free feat.
+? weapons essentially give weapon focus (and a bit of weapon specialization)
Dark Blue Rhomboid ioun stones gives Alertness
Gamboge Nodule ioun stones gives a CLASS FEATURE (immunity to poison)
Stat items give the corresponding boost.
Opalescent white pyramids ioun stones give proficiency with a weapon (normal), or familiarity with a weapon (makes it martial, and if you're a martial class... This is the cracked one)
various items give boosts to skills
Scarlet and Green Cabochon ioun stones give endurance.
And then these ioun stones embedded in a wayfinder:
*Clear spindle grants protection from possession and mental control (as protection from evil)
*Dark blue rhomboid lets you ignore penalties for being asleep, and can be awake while sleeping.
*Deep Red spheres grant Improved Unarmed Strike
*Incandescent blue spheres grant Blind-Fight
*Iridescent spindle gives Endure Elements' effects and protection against exposure to vacuums
--
If pearls of power and metamagic rods were to be removed on the basis of removing limitations, then we'd have to clear out a LOAD of items.
FWIW, in my games I houserule both of these items so that they work as close to the same as I can make them for prepared or spontaneous casters.
If I had to pick just one of these two items to keep, I'd keep the pearls of power, they make more sense thematically and in terms of power than the metamagic rods.
Having said that, it is only fair to note that my level 8 druid had a lesser metamagic rod of extend, two first level pearls of power and one second level pearl of power. And she used them pretty much every single adventuring day. I don't think having them was a game breaker but they sure did help. :)
These items rarely show up in any of the games my group plays. Honestly, we don't seem to have any problems getting along without them.
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@LazarX - I don't disagree sorcerers use rods as well. I just don't see why these items exist in the first place.
Adding to a magic weapon isn't weapon focus. Weapon focus stacks.
And even in the examples of feats in a bottle, they aren't inherently better than the feat, which is the case of the metamagic rod.
I think if either of these items were not in the game, but were put into RPG Superstar, they would be thrown out.
So I don't know why the exist in the first place.
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Answer to your question, this significantly reduces the burst power of mid to high level casters---in particular the loss of the quicken rods. Been there, done that, sometimes do this when I run campaigns skewed more towards martials (I also removed the +stat items for mental stats when I ran said games). All the classes remained fully playable, but the groups tended to be more martials with light caster support than casters with light (mostly rogue or rangerish) martial support since everyone knew about the campaign-specific ruleset before it began.
Thanks for the feedback, although removing mental bonuses is a bridge to far for me.
Anyone else tried it and have feedback?
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First, the 15 minute adventuring day is half a myth. 15 minutes at the table does not mean it was only 15 minutes in-game. Kingmaker alone can have hours of in-game travel, for instance.
Let's take the idea of removing caster friendly items even further, and get rid of wands, scrolls, staves, and potions, all of which allow for more 'spellcasting' than is normally available. The headbands that increase mental ability scores are okay, because they have the belts as counterparts.
Now that I think about it, that might not be such a bad idea for a short campaign...
I digress. The fact is that metamagic rods and pearls of power help the rest of the party just as much as they help the spellcaster using them. Used your last prayer in the last fight? Good thing you have a pearl. Want to put as much hurt on that red dragon as you can before it kills everyone? Thank the gods for the Intensify Metamagic rod.
Since there doesn't seem to be other input I'll address this post although I think it misses the point.
Wands, scrolls and potions are usable by all classes (UMD). Same with Staves, although caster level comes into play with Staves. Still, they are usable. And beyond that they are iconic.
Metamagic Rods can only be used by casters, and pearls of power only by a subset of casters.
Saying that it is valuable because it helps the party beat the bad guy isn't a valid argument for it's existence. That would be like saying every player should be able to carry a shark that shoots lasers which do 20d6 damage, because it would help the party win.
The question on the table is if these two items belong in the game. Obviously they are useful. Many items one could imagine could be useful, like the laser shark.
But that doesn't mean they belong in the game.
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Our party makes widespread use of pearls of power. If the party mage or cleric has a low-level spell that the fighter (say) would like cast on him on a daily basis, he buys a pearl of power and gives it to the spellcaster to use for that specific purpose.
So it needn't just be about spellcaster power.
Metamagic rods, on the other hand, I hate with a passion as the GM, since they seem to me to allow playing the game "on easy mode".
Also, in my experience casters seem to end up with half a dozen of them, which they think they can quick draw for as a free action and never prevent having a free hand for spell casting however many they may be holding.
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Because the spell might be used on a martial class doesn't change that the caster now has an extra spell available, and more to the point any extra spell available. It completely undermines the "prepared" disadvantage that is the underpinning of why prepared casters get spells a level earlier. Particularly for Wizards who already can have bonded items at this point, which function as uber-pearls of power.
I love metamagic feats, but I hate that the rods handwave all the restrictions.
In my mind there is nothing so game breaking as metamagic rods. I feel as though the classes were ballanced, and then metamagic rods were added in without any considerations to how they will affect play. All of the rediculous shenanigans I have seen with casters has relied on them, and I have found casters to be perfectly ballanced without them. Also, no one ever remembers the minimum move action to draw them.
Pearls of power I have less issues with. Generally, I find players cannot afford to have them for their higher level spell slots. They do cause people to be a little more willing to nova, but I like that it allows the wizard to prepare a little more breadth. I think one of the biggest ballance problems comes from people not realizing it is a move to draw the pearl of power and then a standard to recover the spell. Every group I have played with has treated them as an activate and cast immediately. I think if you get rid of them you might see more consumable use, which I would like to see.
I think one of the big problems with removing these items from the game is that the casters will have nothing to look forward to with their loot. Magic weapons are useless to them, many do not bother with armors, so all that will really be left is their resistance and stat items. There needs to be some thing in the game for caster players to work towards. Then again, the whole wealth system is broken right now.
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@Caineach - Good points, although I disagree there is nothing for casters to look forward to other than those two items. Casters still like magic items, as just because you can cast the spell doesn't make it less practical to not have to memorize it in a spell slot. Not to mention all of the Robes and such.
I agree the move and standard actions are good mitigators for these items (as they are for scrolls) but with Rods it is my experience that the casters usually just carry the one they use the most frequently.
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But the flanking rogue and fighter are also against a single target while they are in melee, meaning at risk of attack.
You can still get the metamagic stuff, you just need to take the feat.
As to magic items arcane casters want (Because Divine want the same armor and weapons as everyone else.) off the top of my head: Staves, Cloaks, Bracers, Handy Haversacks, Bags of Holding, Robes, Boots, Goggles, Headbands, Belts (they need Con and Dex...), Amulets...
I don't see casters not having things to buy as a real problem. For every armor they can't buy there is a robe they can. For every weapon they don't wield, there is a stave they could. And they need the belts more than a melee class needs the headbands.
I don't think any of my casters has ever had better than a Lesser Rod of <whatever>. One of those lesser rods was technically part of a powerful quest reward item (a magic dagger that also functioned as a lesser rod of quicken) that the rewarding creature created specifically for a character. The character used it to cast shield as a swift action during the surprise round (rogue-wizard multi-class).
My experience has been that the lesser rods and 1st and 2nd level pearls really help the low level wizards, but the higher level rods and pearls simply aren't available unless you craft them yourself (and in some campaigns the craft feats are simply banned). When they could be crafted, the crafter needed the metamagic feat himself (no increasing the craft DC instead), so you weren't gaining much beyond the "no increase in spell slot" and that was at least partly offset by the action economy penalty of having to manipulate your rods.
I do have one 10th level witch who has a 5th level pearl of power (and a lesser rod of extend). The pearl means that teleport actually gets prepared, because if it is required, the pearl can be used to teleport BACK. This is the highest level pearl I've ever seen as a player. I've NEVER seen a greater metamagic rod of anything.
I'm of the opinion that the low level (lesser rods, 1st and 2nd level pearls) are not a problem.
Honestly, without those rods and the pearls what else would casters use? In my experience wizards and sorcs just don't have that many things they can benefit from. They can't wear armor, they can't use a shield, and with their pitiful BAB and more than likely low strength, what good are enchanted armor and weapons to them?
Also I think people tend to forget how underwhelming caster damage can be. For example in my group we have a wizard who loves his fireball. At level 8 it does 8d6 damage, he has a maximize rod he uses on it every day. So assuming he only blasts one person he does 48 damage, if they don't make their saves. If they do, they take 24. Meanwhile the level 8 fighter with a great sword (assuming by this point they have at least 18 str, a +2 weapon, and weapon spec. which is normal for that level, also assuming weapon training.) can hit for an average of 17, and they can do this every turn from here to infinity while the wizard can do it 3 times.
Take away the max rod and the wizard has a fireball that does 24/12 if they save. Now add in the idea that the fighter has a higher cmb, cmd, hp, ac, and no limit to how many times they can get that attack. It isn't balanced at all at that point the fighter is better in just about every department, at that point the extra damage the wizard gets is justifiable.
Think of how much damage a flanking rogue can do if he has duel wielding. At level 8 two hits with short swords can do 10d6 (8d6 sneak and 2d6 weapons) assuming 14 str not unlikely and +1 weapons he hits for an average of 36, outdoing the wizard even with a maxed fireball unless they fail the reflex save. Without the rod it isn't even a contest the rogue blows the wizard out of the water in terms of damage. Once again the rogue has no limit to how many times he can do this, all he has to do is flank and that isn't difficult if you have a party who works as a team.
Obviously this math is skewed towards the wizard if he can hit more than 2 enemies with one blast, but that is the whole point...
The fact that you are comparing a blaster without any of the blaster buffs, the outright least powerful build for a wizard, says a lot.
My roommate was showing me the build to get 18d6+40 (IIRC) empowered scorching rays at level 8 last night. Half-orc sorcerer with primal and dragon bloodlines and a few abilities that raise caster level for spells. That was without any rods or magic items, so with a quickened rod he could combine it with a 12d6+28 one. (IIRC) I didn't get to check his build or his math, but it took me 20 minutes to build one that can do this at level 9. I can't find where he was pulling the 3rd +1 caster level from, but lore seeker and Magical knack can be combined for +2. The same lvl 8 guy throws 9d6+22 damage unmodified fireballs, outdamaging your guy's maximized ones.
And damage still isn't the best build for casters.
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You really have to take a look at why these kinds of items exist.
Giving loot to the spell casters (especially the Wizard) has been pretty difficult for ages in the history of the game that came before Pathfinder. Looking back at old Dragon Magazine articles you see suggestions on these kinds of limited use items for the casters because it fills a gap. Something they can us occasionally. Not a wand which traditionally was either saved and never used or used with as much frequency as possible, or some other minor useful trinket which seems kind of boring like a ring of protection.
So much of what would be planted gear for casters is disposable this is a nice balance. X uses per day. Pearls even require the use of an action as a balancing point.
Of course it can get out of hand if one allows their players to roam about with sacks full of pearls of power, but that would likely be the case with any game where the PC's get too fat with loot.
But the flanking rogue and fighter are also against a single target while they are in melee, meaning at risk of attack.
You can still get the metamagic stuff, you just need to take the feat.
As to magic items arcane casters want (Because Divine want the same armor and weapons as everyone else.) off the top of my head: Staves, Cloaks, Bracers, Handy Haversacks, Bags of Holding, Robes, Boots, Goggles, Headbands, Belts (they need Con and Dex...), Amulets...
I don't see casters not having things to buy as a real problem. For every armor they can't buy there is a robe they can. For every weapon they don't wield, there is a stave they could. And they need the belts more than a melee class needs the headbands.
Staves (Too high money for most games), Cloaks (the one item I said), Bracers (AC item, irrelevant), Handy Haversacks (everyone wants one), Bags of Holding (everyone wants one), Robes (only good ones are too expensive), Boots (these are cheap, everyone wants the same striding and sprinting), Goggles (why?), Headbands & Belts (they need Con and Dex...) (they don't need dex, and they are less MAD than anyone else), Amulets (They don't need ANA, the big one)...
Basicly, the caster gets to pick up utility items because they have tons of spare cash from their lack of things they need to buy.
I wouldn't miss pearls of power or metamagic rods if they went away. But then again, I could say that about most of the magic items in the Core Rulebook. I don't have any particular objection to items that grant feats or extra spell slots.
I wouldn't ever play a magus with pearls of power. But that's a class with very few spells. I don't think i ever played a full caster that bought pearls of power. Sure keep them if you happened to find some, but buy?
Metamagic rods. I still take metamagic feats such as extend, quickend. Find a metamgic rod of silent - I'll keep it. I would take the feat since it's to situational to valid a feat.
But i like having options for thing I could buy, if i had the money... Taking away items i don't feel is broken well that just makes the game a little less fantasic...
You don't see how many people hid this topic, but the mods do. It's the moderators who pass the results of the boards on to the game designers. They may not even mention this topic if it starts fights an gets hidden a lot.
While I am ok with swords of spell storing which let pure fighters toss up to 3 fireballs, I don't think pure fighters should have real spellcasting abilities. Wizards have a real problem in that they run out of spells quickly. They need a rod of silent spell in case an evil high priest casts silence on the floor in the middle of the party.
You want to think your arrogant little topic gives you some unholy power over the game designers, be my guess. I'm hiding this topic. Send me a hateful PM and I will delete it without reading it!
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But the flanking rogue and fighter are also against a single target while they are in melee, meaning at risk of attack.
You can still get the metamagic stuff, you just need to take the feat.
As to magic items arcane casters want (Because Divine want the same armor and weapons as everyone else.) off the top of my head: Staves, Cloaks, Bracers, Handy Haversacks, Bags of Holding, Robes, Boots, Goggles, Headbands, Belts (they need Con and Dex...), Amulets...
I don't see casters not having things to buy as a real problem. For every armor they can't buy there is a robe they can. For every weapon they don't wield, there is a stave they could. And they need the belts more than a melee class needs the headbands.
Staves (Too high money for most games), Cloaks (the one item I said), Bracers (AC item, irrelevant), Handy Haversacks (everyone wants one), Bags of Holding (everyone wants one), Robes (only good ones are too expensive), Boots (these are cheap, everyone wants the same striding and sprinting), Goggles (why?), Headbands & Belts (they need Con and Dex...) (they don't need dex, and they are less MAD than anyone else), Amulets (They don't need ANA, the big one)...
Basicly, the caster gets to pick up utility items because they have tons of spare cash from their lack of things they need to buy.
First, AC isn't irrelevant for casters. They don't need to be as high as a melee class, but they only have d6 hit points, so they do need AC.
2nd, you can't say "Those are to expensive" then point to item that have the same costs and say "This is what they buy!"
So they don't want weapons or armor, but they do want cloaks, robes, staves, and bracers.
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You don't see how many people hid this topic, but the mods do. It's the moderators who pass the results of the boards on to the game designers. They may not even mention this topic if it starts fights an gets hidden a lot.
While I am ok with swords of spell storing which let pure fighters toss up to 3 fireballs, I don't think pure fighters should have real spellcasting abilities. Wizards have a real problem in that they run out of spells quickly. They need a rod of silent spell in case an evil high priest casts silence on the floor in the middle of the party.
You want to think your arrogant little topic gives you some unholy power over the game designers, be my guess. I'm hiding this topic. Send me a hateful PM and I will delete it without reading it!
What exactly were you trying to accomplish with this post?
Edit: It gets funnier each time I read it. I'm imagining the writer sticking their fingers in their ears and going "LALALALALA I'm not listening LALALALALA!"
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Honestly, without those rods and the pearls what else would casters use?Their prepared spells?
And this is my point. You design the class to have access to spells, with the limit being they need to be prepared in advance...and then you make an item that removes that limit.
Or you make a feat which makes spells more powerful, with the trade they need to either be prepared in advance...then you make an item that negates the feat and the limitation.
Again, if these items didn't exist and showed up in RPG superstar, I think they would be thrown out.
I think that for an object to be imbalanced (broadly considered, not power gaming), every character capable of using it should buy it over everything else.
I usually thought (and still think) that objects that modify ability scores were imbalanced. In 3.5 I doubled their price to make them more scarce. Pathfinder embraces the ubiquity of those items and plans for it.
Choosing your equipment all in pearls of power (higher level ones are too expensive) or metamagic rods (quicken one is ludicrously expensive) is a way of lacking many other interesting objects.
They are useful, but not essential. They provide options, like magic swords do for fighters (no, your wizard is not going to get as much as half the use from them, not matter that you say they can use them too)