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I'm interested in making a rogue who grapples and then pins, followed by sneak attacking. This has led me to some questions.
1. If you pin an opponent, must you continue to use the pin option to keep them pinned, or could you damage them the next round while they are pinned?
2. Does using the damage option of a grapple check allow sneak attack (i.e. if they are pinned)?
3. Does the -4 penalty for not having two hands apply to the initial grapple check, all grapple checks made by the grappler, or all grapple checks?
4. Could a rogue make a grapple check successfully then use a swift action to pull out his spring loaded sheath and sneak attack with a dagger?
I think that's it.
Oh.
5. If you grapple an opponent if you were to trip instead of maintain the grapple, would they have the grappled condition for the trip attack?
A lot of this 'depends' on feat choices. If you go up high enough you can grapple as a movement action.
Normally (grapple as a standard) you would have to maintain the pin. If you used the 'tie up' option however you could attack the now restrained opponent the next round.
Again as it would normally take a standard action to pin, you wouldn't be able to sneak attack in the same round. The pin would end before your next action if you didn't maintain the pin.
All grapple checks require two hands (unless the ability grab or the like comes into play) so if you don't have them available when you make the cmb check, you take the penalty.
Again, a grapple check is normally a standard action so you would be unable to attack with the weapon once it is out.
No, you would have to end the grapple as a free action before attempting the trip normally.
I'm fairly sure you can maintain the pin as if you were maintaining a regular grapple. You would have to continue to do some grapple action, as per usual, but could you grapple for damage, for instance? Pretty sure, yeah. Pinned is just "a more severe version of grappled", after all.
I'm fairly sure you can maintain the pin as if you were maintaining a regular grapple. You would have to continue to do some grapple action, as per usual, but could you grapple for damage, for instance? Pretty sure, yeah. Pinned is just "a more severe version of grappled", after all.
Every round after you successfully start a grapple you must maintain as a standard action. When you 'maintain' you would choose one option. If you choose damage, you aren't pinning the opponent anymore. If you choose pin, you aren't able to damage the opponent that round.
If you choose 'tie up/bind' then the next round you can attack the now helpless opponent.
Moral of the story, carry A LOT of rope or several manacles to do what the OP is interested in.
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Not quite agreeing with all Skylancer said.
1. As I think Skylancer was saying: No, once pinned, you do not have to pin them again. To do this, you maintain grapple as a standard action, so you can choose any option available when you successfully maintain a grapple on a pinned opponent.
2. Yes, you can apply sneak attack to a pinned opponent. As Skylancer said, you can't do it the same round you pin them.
3. Initial grapple checks take the -4 penalty. Maintaining the grapple does not incur the -4 penalty. Similarly, when you are trying to escape a grapple, you do not take a -4 penalty. See below.
4. No, not like that. You may draw a dagger, and then as part of the standard action of maintaining the grapple, you may make one attack. If you agree that you don't take -4 to maintain, there's no penalty for doing this.
5. No. You can grapple a tripped opponent, but you cannot trip and grapple or maintain grapple in the same turn. Either pin them or don't waste a standard action grappling in the first place.
* Attempting to grapple a foe and maintaining or escaping a grapple are not the same thing. A humanoid defender attempting to become the grappler would incur the -4.
** You may make other actions as the dominant grappler, so long as you can do so with the grappled condition.
A grappled creature cannot use Stealth to hide from the creature grappling it, even if a special ability, such as hide in plain sight, would normally allow it to do so. If a grappled creature becomes invisible, through a spell or other ability, it gains a +2 circumstance bonus on its CMD to avoid being grappled, but receives no other benefit.
Casting Spells while Grappled/Grappling: The only spells which can be cast while grappling or pinned are those without somatic components and whose material components (if any) you have in hand. Even so, you must make a concentration check (DC 10 + the grappler's CMB + the level of the spell you're casting) or lose the spell.
It's late and quite possible I'm not 100% on the pinned thing, but the grapple CMB always refers back to 'grappled' and doesn't say anything like 'grappled (or pinned)' in the write up to indicate 'pinned' is persistent if you don't choose to renew it every round just looking at the RAW/book write of it. Maybe there is an errata/FAQ?
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As a matter of fact, there is.
Being pinned, as stated in the FAQ, is merely a more severe state of being grappled. The grappler continues to be grappled and being the dominant grappler, while the defender is pinned. This handy grapple flow chart helps.
While at it, might as well link the other grapple flow chart.
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In 3.5 Pinning was explicitly for only a single round "You can hold your opponent immobile for 1 round by winning an opposed grapple check". Now that mention of one round is not in PF, so unless it was an accidental omission I believe it would be intentional, and so the Pin remains in place until broken.
One thing to be aware of though, is that if you are pinning a foe, people now get to Sneak Attack you too (as you lose your Dex bonus to AC when pinning someone; PF p200)!
Also be aware that although pinning your foe may allow you to sneak attack, it likely makes it easier for them to escape as
a) your CMD is now the lower based on Dex-4 or no Dex Bonus (so if your Dex was 16 or higher your CMD is lower than when you just had your foe grappled), and
b) your foe is now not suffering a -4 to Dexterity as they no longer have the Grappled condition, and so their Escape Artist modifier is no longer reduced by -2 (for the -4 Dex), and if they have Agile Manouevres the same goes for their CMB.
And unlike in 3.5 (and as confirmed in the FAQ) if you break out of the Pinned condition you break out of the grapple completely.
So get your Sneak Attack in quick! :)
a) your CMD is now the lower based on Dex-4 or no Dex Bonus
Interesting.
Is "Denied Dexterity bonus to AC" a penalty?
Penalty: "Penalties are numerical values that are subtracted from a check or statistical score. Penalties do not have a type and most penalties stack with one another."
Combat Maneuver Defense: "Any penalties to a creature's AC also apply to its CMD."
If 'denied dex' is a not a penalty, but the lack of a bonus, then it doesn't affect CMD.
b) your foe is now not suffering a -4 to Dexterity as they no longer have the Grappled condition, and so their Escape Artist modifier is no longer reduced by -2 (for the -4 Dex), and if they have Agile Manouevres the same goes for their CMB.
Pinned: "A pinned creature cannot move and is denied its Dexterity bonus.."
Note: Denied dexterity bonus, not dex bonus to AC.
Almost certainly not intended, but it does have the nice side effect of lowering your escape artist bonus (assuming positive dex).
But yes, for someone without a dex bonus, going from grappled to pinned actually increases their escape artist check.
I wonder if that's an error in the PRD. Does anyone have a physical book handy and can check the Pinned entry in the glossary and see if there's a missing sentence (before the 2nd period)?
My book says a pinned creature is flat-footed. This was apparently changed at some point. In either case, you would benefit from having a lower dex.
My book says a pinned creature is flat-footed. This was apparently changed at some point. In either case, you would benefit from having a lower dex.
Aha, it's bad errata.
Page 568—In the Pinned condition, in the second sentence, change “flat-footed” to “denied its Dexterity bonus.”
By including the period in the replacement text, they ended up with an extra.
I guess that means it's intentional.
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| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Is "Denied Dexterity bonus to AC" a penalty?
Well, Pathfinder core rulebook page 199 states: "A flat-footed creature does not add its Dexterity bonus to its CMD." Now I know "Flat-footed" is not the same as "has lost Dex bonus to AC" but I figure its close enough to imply that should you lose your Dex bonus to AC you lose it to CMD too.
Pinned: "A pinned creature cannot move and is denied its Dexterity bonus.."
Note: Denied dexterity bonus, not dex bonus to AC.Almost certainly not intended, but it does have the nice side effect of lowering your escape artist bonus (assuming positive dex).
Good spot, I never realised that. Like you though, I am unsure whether that was intended, i.e. that when pinned you lose Dex Bonus to everything - including Skill checks? Reflex Saves?
But yes, for someone without a dex bonus, going from grappled to pinned actually increases their escape artist check.
Actually, if you have a Dex up to 13, losing Dex bonus is still better than suffering a -4 Dexterity Penalty (which gives a -2 penalty to Dexterity skills and statistics, combined with the +1 dex bonus for Dex 13 equals a -1 penalty overall).
I wonder if that's an error in the PRD. Does anyone have a physical book handy and can check the Pinned entry in the glossary and see if there's a missing sentence (before the 2nd period)?
I have been looking at my PDF of the 5th printing and it begins:
Pinned: A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions. A pinned creature cannot move and is denied its Dexterity bonus. A pinned character also takes an additional –4 penalty to his Armor Class.
So if it is an error, then its in the core book too.
Maybe a FAQ candidate?
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Page 568—In the Pinned condition, in the second sentence, change “flat-footed” to “denied its Dexterity bonus.”By including the period in the replacement text, they ended up with an extra.
I guess that means it's intentional.
I am not so sure, it could have been the intention to change "flat-footed" with "denied its Dexterity bonus to AC" as they are not equal (if you're flat-footed you also cannot make AoOs).
I imagine this is why I hadn't twigged to the fact before now that it says "denied Dexterity bonus" rather than "denied Dexterity bonus to AC", because when I first read the Pinned condition it said "flat-footed" and that most definitely is only Dex Bonus lost to AC, and explicitly to CMD as well!
Anyone have the Condition Cards to hand? What does pinned say there? Am I going to have to errata my cards?
Anyone have the Condition Cards to hand? What does pinned say there? Am I going to have to errata my cards?
Apparently there are multiple editions of those cards, too.
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Anyone have the Condition Cards to hand? What does pinned say there? Am I going to have to errata my cards?Apparently there are multiple editions of those cards, too.
Doh! I will have to dig mine out and check. Normally I wouldn't be bothered as I am happy ignoring errata unless we something really causes a problem in the game, however with Pathfinder I only ever play it as part of Pathfinder Society organised play and so I have to use errata.
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It doesn't seem to be brought into question, but being denied a bonus doesn't remove a penalty.
CMD for 12 dex character while pinned: -5 compared to normal (-4 AC, -1 DEX)
CMD for 12 dex character while grappled: -2 compared to normal (-2 DEX)
CMD for 12 dex grappler vs pinned: -2 compared to normal (-2 DEX)
CMD for 8 DEX character while pinned: -4 compared to normal (-4 AC)
CMD for 8 DEX character while grappled: -2 (-2 DEX)
CMD for 8 DEX grappler vs pinned: -2 compared to normal (-2 DEX)
CMD for 16 DEX character while pinned: -7 compared to normal (-4 AC, -3 DEX)
CMD for 16 DEX character while grappled: -2 (-2 DEX)
CMD for 16 DEX grappler vs pinned: -3 compared to normal (denied DEX)
CMB: Unchanged
Escape Artist: If DEX is less than 14, Escape Artist is better when pinned. If DEX is 16 or better, Escape Artist is better when grappled.
Sometimes it is easier to break free from a pin compared to a grapple.
As a matter of fact, there is.
** spoiler omitted **
Being pinned, as stated in the FAQ, is merely a more severe state of being grappled. The grappler continues to be grappled and being the dominant grappler, while the defender is pinned. This handy grapple flow chart helps.
While at it, might as well link the other grapple flow chart.
Not to be difficult but the flow charts are not Paizo issued and they still don't have an option showing 'pinned' from the beginning of the grapple. They show attackers grapple in effect -> choose option -> pin. Again nothing states 'pin' stays in effect past the action/round that you initiated it, only that you have the grappled condition throughout the exchange and if you opt to use your standard action to impose a more severe penalty on whomever you are grappling you can by choosing to pin them. As a temporary condition it is more extreme than 'grappled' so doesn't stack with the grappled condition for the duration of your 'pinning' action and still doesn't contradict anything else in the rules. If there is something I'm missing I will happily concede the point but until then I'm going to play devils advocate because I'm not seeing anything in the rules stating a pin lasts past the action you spend to do it (short of tying someone up).
Again nothing states 'pin' stays in effect past the action/round that you initiated it
Body Bludgeon (Ex): "While raging, if the barbarian pins an opponent that is smaller than her, she can then use that opponent as a two-handed improvised weapon... (stuff about size) The barbarian can make a single attack using the pinned opponent as part of the action she uses to maintain the grapple, using her highest attack bonus. (stuff about damage) If the pinned opponent is unable to resist being pinned for any reason, the barbarian can use that opponent as an improvised weapon without grappling or pinning the opponent, until the creature is reduced to 0 or fewer hit points, at which point the creature becomes useless as an improvised weapon."
If pinned is only granted for one round after the grapple is maintained (choosing the pin option), this rage power can never work, because the attack happens during the action to maintain, so the creature would not be pinned until after it happens.
-edit- I suppose it could work if you have Greater Grapple, and thus maintain the grapple as a move action, choosing to pin, then maintain again as a standard action to use the feat. But doing that every round doesn't seem to be how it was intended. (especially since you could just maintain once, deal damage, then attack the other guy normally)
As these boards prove again and again, RAI and RAW don't always match.