Spellblade Magus and TWF


Rules Questions


3 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

The Archetypes "Spell Athame" ability says he can fight with the "dagger" as an offhand weapon, and that it replaces the spellstrike ability. It makes no mention of mechanics of this ability like spell combat does. If this ability replaced spell combat it would make sense that the mechanics would still be there, but it replaces spell strike, and as such... do you need Two weapon fighting?
IT seems strange that an innate ability of a class would not come with any training to use it, and suffering the full negatives of fighting with two weapons without the benefit of training, and thus forcing the archetype to take a feat to be effective with an ability.

As a house rule I would say the magus has the effects of TWF with the spell athame only (much like spell combat) but there is no RAW on it. other than the fact of RAW omission?

Also as a magus's BAB goes up, what then? No additional attacks with the Athame?

Some logic seems to say this points to the fact that he needs to take the TWF tree, some logic says he would get these abilities automatically but with the athame only.

What about meeting the prerequisites for TWF, Improved, greater etc? Would he be exempt from needing the prerequisites for the feats like a ranger, or now to play an effective Spellblade do we not only need to burn a lot of feats but need a high Dex as well, making this archetype near unplayable due to the insane amount of MAD?


It would seem that, to be balanced, the Magus would only take the -2 penalty for fighting with two weapons as if he had the TWF feat; otherwise the offhand attack would be rather useless.

As far as multiple attacks, Spellstrike basically got you an extra attack, in most cases, as well as the benefit of being able to deliver a spell through your weapon.
If Spell Athame were to grant only a single extra attack, in most cases, as well as benefiting from the bonuses from Arcane Pool, that seems pretty comparable.

You could take the full TWF tree, but I would say that's not the "default" way to play the archetype, and any difficulties arising from such a build is not an inherent fault of the archetype.

In any case, whether the Magus can use Spell Athame without massive penalties is FAQ worthy.


as a compromise (spell strike is specifically more powerful by far than spell athame) I could see access to the TWF tree with no need to meet prerequisites (like a ranger)


I don't really consider being able to expand the threat range for a 5 dice shocking grasp as far more powerful than a free off-hand weapon that scales with level. That can easily be a 200,000gp item by 17th level. Not to mention the Magus already gets the equivalent of a free 200,000gp weapon via Magic Weapon and Arcane Pool.

Not that Spellstrike isn't awesome, it is, but I think you're underselling being able to TWF with 0gp investment.


It's a dagger, that can become a maximum of a +5 dagger, then you can add some arcane pool to it like your other weapon, but that's already balanced inside the class of magus vs. other classes; I'm speaking strictly balance of spell athame vs. spell strike.

The spell athame uses spells or alternatively by blowing a feat/arcana , arcane pool points which is a very limited resource.

Not being able to TWF with the extra weapon, gimps it terribly.

a spellblade magus could still use the athame for a throwing device, in lieu of his main attack, thereby still getting some use of the ability, but it specifically calls out using it as a off hand weapon, which means it's the main intent of the ability.

I think free access to the TWF chain (not needing to meet the prerequisites) is a reasonable errata; as you would still need to spend feats.

IF you just say "oh he can use the athame as if he had TWF" (ala spell combat) then what about a character that wants to persue the TWF chain, would he not HAVE to take TWF (in order to gain access to the rest of the chain) and therefor at a low level being using a feat that effectively gets him NOTHING, because with his spell athame he can already do that?


Pendagast wrote:

It's a dagger, that can become a maximum of a +5 dagger, then you can add some arcane pool to it like your other weapon, but that's already balanced inside the class of magus vs. other classes; I'm speaking strictly balance of spell athame vs. spell strike.

The spell athame uses spells or alternatively by blowing a feat/arcana , arcane pool points which is a very limited resource.

Not being able to TWF with the extra weapon, gimps it terribly.

a spellblade magus could still use the athame for a throwing device, in lieu of his main attack, thereby still getting some use of the ability, but it specifically calls out using it as a off hand weapon, which means it's the main intent of the ability.

I think free access to the TWF chain (not needing to meet the prerequisites) is a reasonable errata; as you would still need to spend feats.

IF you just say "oh he can use the athame as if he had TWF" (ala spell combat) then what about a character that wants to persue the TWF chain, would he not HAVE to take TWF (in order to gain access to the rest of the chain) and therefor at a low level being using a feat that effectively gets him NOTHING, because with his spell athame he can already do that?

The normal Magus can only use Arcane Pool on a single weapon, the Spellblade can use it on two. That's strictly beyond what the normal Magus is balanced for.

Additionally, both Spellstrike and Spell Athame use spells, only Spellstrike needs a spell for each use. Spell Athame likely lasts for the whole encounter.

Finnally, If you don't just say "oh he can use the athame as if he had TWF" then he has to actually take the feat to work. Giving the archetype a feat tax just to use it's signature ability(even if he can skip the pre-reqs) is a horrible idea.


Give him TWF for free. 1 feat, 1 ability. The sacrifice of free spells during a full attack is something i'd much rather have a player chose than a free standard action in the middle of a full attack, and an extra attach (usually) to boot.


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The Spellblade Magus can do more than simply use Arcane Pool on two weapons--unless I'm drastically misreading the text, enhancing his physical weapon also enhances the athame for free.


Pendagast wrote:
do you need Two weapon fighting?

If you want to use two-weapon fighting during a full-attack to get an extra attack, then the Two-Weapon Fighting feat will help reduce those penalties.

If you're not doing that, then the feat does nothing.

Pendagast wrote:
Also as a magus's BAB goes up, what then? No additional attacks with the Athame?

If your BAB is +6 (or higher) you can get an extra attack during a full-attack (or during Spell Combat). This is separate and unrelated to two-weapon fighting.

If you're looking for input on your potential house rules, you might find better responses in that forum. (I'm not flagging for move, since you had actual rule questions as well)

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