| dunebugg |
So with the use of this feat, you can take a 4-level dip (okay maybe thats too many to call it a dip) in another class as early as levels 5-8.
Presuming you don't give a darn about druid spellcasting, what what you take 4 levels in? Barbarian and Monk seem to have the most to offer at first, but you guys are smart.
Or is there a PrC you would take instead? Green Faith Acolyte would go from 6/10 to 10/10 wild shape progression.
This is in a low-magic-item Kingmaker game, and the character in question is a dwarf druid who wants to focus solely on melee combat.
| Phasics |
I made a build a long while ago which utilized this.
Called the Venomous Raging Wildshaper
Because wildshape while cool could be so much cooler. I've potentially taken a couple of rule liberties so if anyone wants to call me out on rules be my guest. The major one I couldn't find an answer on was growing additional natural attacks in a wildshape. e.g. giving elementals bite and gore attacks on top of their slams. but can't find a reason why not. all the growing is free action stuff too so easy to do once wildshaped.
For the most part I've tried to find ways to improve wildshape that don't cost you your actions in combat, being either free or swift.
Also the growth domain is just my go to domain for the free swift enlarge at early levels open to better suggestions for a better tail end domain power, or maybe better domain spells (would kill for Fluid Form , +10 reach on a Huge wildshape and no penalty for sqeezing into any space YES PLEASE )
Appreciate any suggestions to tighten up the build
Level 1 (20 point buy)
17STR 12DEX 14CON 8INT 13WIS 14CHA
14HP
40 speed
Melee +4
Ranged +2
Feats: Power attack, Skill Focus Diplomacy
Abilities: Rage
Skills: Climb, Swim, Intimidate, Perception
Notes: Basic barb start, skill focus explained later
Level 2
Druid Level
Abilities: Domain (Growth)
Skills: Know nature (x2), Acrobatics
Notes: swift enlarge is a nice kicker for the early levels, and fast track druid to 4th for wildshape
Level 3
Druid level
Feats: Eldrich Herritage (Serpentine) Serpent’s Fang (Ex): 1d4+STR Bite + DC10+(1/2Char-2)+CON poison 1CON/rnd for 6 rounds save ends. (Importantly free action to grow)
Skills: Know Nature, Perception (x2), Intimidate,
Note: the poison is CON based so biting someone while raging (+4CON) increases the posion DC by +2.
Level 4
Druid Level
Skills: Know Nature, Perception, Intimidate, Acrobatics
Ability: +1 Strength
Notes: Level 2 spells
Level 5
Druid
Ability: Wildshape
Feat: Shaping Focus (+4 to druid level for wildshape up to HD)
Skills: Knowlege (Planes) (x4)
Notes: The Fangs you can grow as a free action can either increase the number of natural attack on forms without a bite attack e.g. A Chimp with two slams can now have a poisoned bite and 2 slams.
Level 6
Barbarian
Abilities: Rage Power (Lesser Fiend Totem) 1d8 Gore attack while raging (importantly grow on rage and rage is a free action), uncanny Dodge, (Wildshapes now Large)
Skills Knowlege (Planes), Perception, Fly
Notes: Its about here things start getting interesting, And you've got lots of options. You can either beef up what is already a good wildshape choice e.g. tiger with pounce , and give it a Gore attack to increase its natural attacks to 4, plus the bite does poison.
You can also turn very mediocre elemental forms into useful as 1 slam becomes 1slam 1bite 1gore. a water elemental +2CON stacks with rage +4CON increasing you poison DC another +1. Ape Form with 2 slams and a climb speed goes up to 4 attacks as well.
And the bite and gore are both primary so you getting alot of full BAB attacks.
Level 7
Barbarian
Feats: Planar Wild Shape OR Natural Spell (take other at 9th)
Notes: I'd probably go with Planar at this point to juice up your animal wildshape which are about to hit Huge size. Good to be a neutral druid you can choose which template each time to tailor vs what your fighting. DR10/good or evil, resist 10 to 2-3 elements, some token SR5+CR and smite good/evil which while nothing huge with only 14CHA is still free damage. The DR and tailored resistances are the big win here.
Your Posion Bite attack just became magical and does 1d2CON
Level 8
Oracle
Abilites: Lame Curse (offers RP opportunity to be maimed in a previous battle ), Battle Mystery: (Surprising Charge)
+1 Wisdom you need it for level Druid spells later (unless your confortable having +2 and +4wisdom items do it for you in which case put into STR)
Note: oddly enough this is taken for the lame curse more than anything else. with wildshape giving you access to high base speeds and a barbs natural +10movment you'll barely notice the -10 speed from the curse. However next level you become immune to fatigue greatly improving your Rage efficiency, allowing you to drop out of rage between full attack opportunities to save rage rounds without being fatigued.
Level 9
Druid
Feat: Planar Wild Shape or Natural Spell (take the one you haven't taken)
Notes: Natural Spell more relevant at the back end as your filling out the rest of your druid levels and can benefit from some of the better shorter duration buff spells. (plus with free entry in and out of rage you can rage off to cast now with natural spell)
At this point Druid until the end (12th level) as we've used up our 4 non druid levels and we want to keep wildshape maximised, at this point you can pretty much flavour the back end how you like, As for feats, extra revelation or extra rage power are worth looking at e.g. war sight for 2 d20 initaitve rolls or a battlefield Clarity for reroll +4 save vs some nasty afflictions. Improved Natural Attack (Gore) to bump its dice up, this stacks with the size increase of your wildshape so growing Gore on a Large creature is 2d6, if you've got improved feat its 3d6. Or use feats to grab Improved Overrun and mix with Barbarian Rage Power to Overrun prone and do your STR bonus in damage
There is also some flexibility with the order I started with Barb for the HP and BAB benefit to grab power attack and be effective in melee for the early levels. You can grab 2 barbarian level first if you want to grab gore attack early and mix a bite and gore into your normal greataxe/greatsword attack for 3 attacks very early while raging.
To max out your poison DC
Huge Water elemental +8 CON
Rage +4 CON
Effec Sorc Level = 10
Item +2 maybe +4CON
10+5+4+2+2= 23
12th level
Poison Bite 1d4CON , DC 23, for 6 rounds, 2 saves to end
*****
On a final note I think something similar could be achieved with Oracle/barbarian maybe rage prophet and the Dark Tapestry mystery (or flame or waves if you don't mind waiting), but it loses out on the polymorph not being wildshape.
*****
looks like some of my idea may have been FAQ'd but you can probably find some ideas still in there
| nate lange RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |
i like phasics' suggestion (combat effectiveness for a wildshaper really is all about increasing number of natural attacks), but i'd try to up dex and pick up combat reflexes: being bigger = larger threatened area = more AoOs (if you have Combat Reflexes) = more damage.
apart from that- you didn't really post enough info to offer specific advice... if you're tough (and angry) barbarian's a great choice; if you're smart alchemist could be really good (feral mutagen = nice strength boost, and potentially two extra natural attacks; vivesectionist would also give +2d6 sneak attack); if you have a good Cha (unlikely for a dwarf) nature oracle could get you a nice AC boost (that works while wildshaped) and keep your level maxed for animal companion (if you take one); if Wis is your only good mental stat, 2 levels of sensei would let you use your Wis bonus on attack rolls and AC, and give you a few rounds of inspire courage that you could combine with spells to give you a useful combat option for when you're not wildshapped (plus a bonus feat); 4 levels of weapon master (the fighter archetype) would get you 3 bonus feats, weapon training, and access to weapon specialization...
| StreamOfTheSky |
It needn't be just one class...
1-2 levels into Master of Many Styles Monk is pretty nice, just time them well so that you can make the most of the bonus feats. For example, already have Dodge, take 1st level at 3rd or any odd thereafter to gain Imp. Unarmed from the monk level and take Crane Style as your general feat, then Crane Wing as your bonus feat. Similarly, have Snake Style before taking the 2nd monk level so you can immediately pick up Snake Fang.
Crane and Snake are the styles I recommend. Though Crane + Dragon isn't bad, either, and makes a 2nd level in the class unneeded as you have no garbage feat to skip out on like with Snake.
The rest depends on if you're doing 1 or 2 levels of monk. If you have 3 levels left to play with, you want to go Weapon Master Fighter probably. That opens up gloves of dueling for an eventual +3 attack/damage.
Inquisitor is a somewhat tempting dip for the wis-synergy, though multiclassing a lot of medium BAB classes is really really bad for your melee.
A Freebooter Trapper Ranger dip also can be great for picking up class skills, a feat you don't need pre-reqs for, and other things, including a move action party buff with unlimited uses that stacks with everything.
| Umbranus |
For something else you could go 2 levels in any full bab class and 2 levels magus (or 1 full bab 3 magus). That way you can spellcombat/spellstrike in wildshape. With the trait for increased magus CL (magical knack or magical lineage I always mix them up) you're getting an additional attack + 4d6 or 5d6 shocking grasp out of it.
| Viscount K |
Here's my two cents. High saves come in handy.
2 level of Monk for the Wisdom bonuses to AC, the boosts to all three saves, evasion (woo!) and the feats. I'd recommend Master of Many Styles, as people noted above, 'cause the feats are highly interesting.
2 levels of Paladin, depending on if your charisma is high enough to take advantage of the paladin bonus to saves or not.
If it's not, then go with a couple levels of fighter, or maybe splash in some rogue. Multiple feats never went amiss for a melee combatant, and neither has sneak attack.
| Gauss |
I would reverse this: the dip should be the Druid levels. Yes, you lose out on spells but you gain oh so much in combat abilities. Isnt that the reason for a Wild Shape focused druid?
Druid 4 and Fighter 4+ will get a Beast Shape III focused Wild Shaper for 24hours a day (3/day for 8 hours each time). Main drawback to this is no Wild Speech and loss of some Wild Shape flexibility.
For full wild shape flexibility I would take it up to Level 8 Druid and Level 4+ Fighter. I would also take the feats Natural Spell and Wild Speech.
If you really want some cheese, take Planar Wild Shape (though, I do not recommend it as your GM may throw a heavy object at you for it).
- Gauss
| Gauss |
Umbranus, lets look at that for a moment:
Scenario 1:
Level 4 druid with 4 levels of fighter has Planar Wild Shape.
For 8 hours per day he has DR 5/(evil or good) and Energy Resistance 10 against 2 or 3 energy types. He also has SR 14. (SR = 5+HD-1 +1for PC level equipment +1 for SR with more than 5 HD = SR 14)
I dont know about you, but that pretty much covers most adventuring days I ever run into.
Scenario 2:
Level 8 druid with 4 levels of fighter has Planar Wild Shape.
For 24hours per day (in 2 bursts of 12 hours each) he has DR 10/(evil or good) and Energy Resistance 15 against 2 or 3 energy types. He also has SR18.
So now we have established that the burning through the wild shaping resources at double speed is not a big deal.
Comparisons of what they get:
Paladins dont get DR 5/evil until level 17 nor DR 10/evil until level 20. But there is no direct financial equivalent that I can readily find.
SR 14 would normally cost 20,000gp.
SR 18 would normally cost 60,000gp.
Of course, the SR continues to climb as the PC levels so just add a 'free' 10,000gp per level.
A Ring of Energy Resistance 10 costs 12,000gp for the first energy type and 18,000gp for each additional type.
The Fiendish Template protects against 2 types for a cost savings of 30,000gp.
The Celestial Template protects against 3 types for a cost savings of 48,000gp.
Since I cannot readily find a magic item with Energy Resistance 15 I cannot directly price it. However, it should be somewhere between the minor and the major ring so lets call it 20,000gp (middle).
This translates into a savings of around 50,000gp for the Fiendish Template and around 80,000gp for the Celestial Template.
Summary of savings:
At level 8 this one feat is granting DR 5/evil for most of the adventuring day AND saving you between 50,000 and 68,000gp in bonuses. Yes, that should be divided by 3 for only covering 1/3 of the day but it is still a major savings.
At level 14 this one feat is granting DR 10/evil for ALL of the adventuring day AND saving you between 110,000 and 140,000gp.
Cheese? I think so.
- Gauss
| Umbranus |
I never met a druid who really stayed in wildshape all day. Once you end it to do something in your normal form you need to spend another two uses of wildshape to go back into celestial mode.
But what I was meaning: There is no real difference in cheesieness between a druid 12 using planar wildshape and a druid 8 fighter 4 using it. If it's cheese it is so all the time or in other words then the feat is just too strong, but it is not cheese to use it as intended.
For me something can only become cheesy when you use it in a way not intended by combinging things and bending rules.
Edited to add something:
There have been other discussions in that train of thought. And I still don't accept that using abilities given to you to get something for which others have to pay a lot of money is cheesy. Like the sorcerer favored class bonuses giving additional spells known. If you use that every level you save an immense amount of money when compared to pages of spell knowledge. But it doesn't matter because it is a bonus you get by combing that class with some races.
| Atarlost |
If you don't care about spellcasting you can leave druid and never look back. In some ways the Beast Shape III forms are the best you'll ever get. You can squeeze a little more strength or AC out of an elemental or some fancy tricks out of some plants, but you won't get the single heavy hit for a vital strike build or fancy attack abilities like pounce or constrict without being a nearly immobile plant or one of the animals that max out with 8 levels of wildshape anyways.
The most important thing is to plan ahead.
If you want to do a vital strike build grab as much full BAB as possible to qualify for the vital strike feats ASAP and consider barbarian since you'll be using 1.5x strength on a single natural attack. Or fighter for the bonus feats.
If you want a big cat or allosaurus, cavalier can be nice for the challenge or fighter for specialization. Lore Warden is the best fighter if you're going deep to get the CMB/CMD boost.
If you want something with multiple attacks but no pounce consider barbarian again, but this time beast totem. Again, going in deeper than 4 levels to get it.
Honorable mention goes to the monk to get easier access to dragon ferocity, which with feral combat training can give serious bonus damage, though the only way to get feral combat training for multiple attacks is as a human fighter with martial versatility. Still, getting half your strength mod to your claws as a large or huge pounce/rake form is a lot of bonus damage. (Rakes are also claw attacks: look at the accuracy numbers on the Tiger in Bestiary I, which has weapon focus: claw) Flurry won't do much good so look at MoMS, maneuver master, or tetori.