For incorporeal, someone pointed out that since their natural weapons are considered magic (and epic) for overcoming damage reduction, it could hit incorporeal. Feels like a stretch but it's not really that OP.
This might be a great opportunity for me to learn something new, but where does it say that their weapons are considered magic and epic for overcoming damage reduction?
Here's the reference on Tarrasques.
Here's the only excerpt I could find on Epic DR:
A few very powerful monsters are vulnerable only to epic weapons—that is, magic weapons with at least a +6 enhancement bonus. Such creatures’ natural weapons are also treated as epic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
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My groups have only had to deal with a tarrasque once before, it was back in 3.5 during a campaign that was meant to run from 1 all the way up into the epics.
Earlier in the adventure the players had their first experience plane hopping going to a demi-plane of shadows to retrieve an artifact. The item was part of what gave the plane stability, so when they snatched it they had to make a quick get away as the negative energy from the shadowplane itself spilled in and flooded the realm.
Cut to a number of levels later, the material plane is having some rifts opened in it due to the destabilizing effects of a number of planes collapsing(which the characters unwittingly had a part in, see above). One of the rifts awoke the tarrasque and the players hurried to try and stop it amid all the other issues going on. Thinking quickly, the main caster in the group heightened a plane shift to give it a decent save and got lucky in zapping the tarrasque away to the aforementioned plane where it would be taking constant negative levels to keep it down so they could deal with it later.
As a side note, this caster is the same one who touched the artifact that caused the plane to collapse then later hit a demon that was being enveloped by entropy with a wild magic spell that sent it to a random plane and we rolled Nirvana. After that campaign we would use that char's name as a synonym for something getting excessively screwed over. As in 'That demon got Calor-ed.'
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For incorporeal, someone pointed out that since their natural weapons are considered magic (and epic) for overcoming damage reduction, it could hit incorporeal. Feels like a stretch but it's not really that OP.This might be a great opportunity for me to learn something new, but where does it say that their weapons are considered magic and epic for overcoming damage reduction?
Here's the reference on Tarrasques.
Here's the only excerpt I could find on Epic DR:
A few very powerful monsters are vulnerable only to epic weapons—that is, magic weapons with at least a +6 enhancement bonus. Such creatures’ natural weapons are also treated as epic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
The Tarrasque has DR/15 epic. Because its DR is negated by Epic, it's own natural weapons are considered Epic when they strike.
As epic counts as magical, they can also strike incorporeal targets.
The wording on incorporeal states that it can be struck by any natural weapon that strikes as if magical. So, if the Tarrasques claws strike as if Epic, and Epic is the highest form of "magical" then the Tarrasque will absolutely destroy wraiths or other such incorporeal undead with just its claws.
Note that Incorporeal doesn't come with the caveat that it must "strike as if magical for over coming incorporial", it just says strike as if magic. As long as this requirement is met, then it is overcome.
Cheers
PS. I know it sounds like I'm trying to destroy peoples ideas here, but as Tactics Lion suggested, I'm merely pointing out the problems you may face from your DM with your solutions. This way folks can either ignore them if they think the DM wont care, or take time for workarounds so their solution becomes stronger or more convincing.
Please remember, it's about what your DM says is a good idea, nit what I say. I've already pointed out the ones I liked because of their creativeness and unique abilities to drive plot forwards or change the world in some way.
Only time I ever encountered the Tarrasque as a player, a buddy of mine was playing a dwarven fighter. Tarraque shows up and he boldy announces that he's got this. That we should all just stand back and watch. He strolls on up to the damn thing carrying part of a heroes feast (I guess he thought he was more likely to be targeted if he had food. I dunno) and lets himself get swallowed whole. He then informs the DM that he is going to turn his bag of holding inside out and hands his character sheet over to the DM to look over his inventory. The DM looks at it for a moment and then looks up...looks back down...looks back up..."I f$**ing hate you"
You see the dm had given him a bag of holding with infinite capacity. During a previous adventure he used the bag to catch water leaking from a planar rift. We had all forgotten about this. The entire elemental plane of water was inside this bag. Like the whole damn plane. So he opens the bag and the prime material plane is engulfed by the plane of water. Only the druid and the tarrasque survived. Although the tarrasque remained drowned for the rest of time.
And this behavior was completely in character. That's the scary part.
That is good. I declare it as such.
Although another way you could off it would be a similar get swallowed situation. First wrap a decanter of endless water in a protective sheath, it has to be able to survive digestion. Diamonds may suffice, a Dwarven adamantium gourd. It needs to hold the decanter and have an exit hole. It also has to be attached to a weight, a spiked small anvil may do, with some hooks (we are going to catch a big one).
Once inside, and the payload is attached to the stomach wall, say "Geyser" and the 30 gallon per round stream begins, I'd select salt water, because that isn't good to take in, in large amounts. Get blasted out, flee. Observe.
The tarrasque is now taking in 30 gallons of salt water per round. Deep in its digestive tract. The decanter is weighted down and protected. That is going to cause upset, mess with its digestion, its blood. If it doesn't vomit up the water continuously, it is going to fill and potentially burst/overflow. Which will not be pretty.
One incapacitated/dying Tarrasque.
The Tarrasque has DR/15 epic. Because its DR is negated by Epic, it's own natural weapons are considered Epic when they strike.
I'm willing to believe you and I'm not trying to argue simply for my point, but I really would like a rules reference for where this is stated. I know this is in 3.5, but I never did find it in Pathfinder.
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The Tarrasque has DR/15 epic. Because its DR is negated by Epic, it's own natural weapons are considered Epic when they strike.I'm willing to believe you and I'm not trying to argue simply for my point, but I really would like a rules reference for where this is stated. I know this is in 3.5, but I never did find it in Pathfinder.
Read the bestiary entries for DR and incorporeal. These both do a better job of describing what does and doesn't work than the core rule book does.
Also, epic counts as a magic bonus of +6 or better, as stated in the core book under the DR rules.
So, if the Tarrasque has DR/epic, according to bestiary this means its natural attacks strike as if epic. Core rules state epic is magical. Incorporeal states can be struck by magic according to bestiary. Therefore Tarrasque can attack and pretty easily kill incorporeals.
Cheers.
Adamantine Golems are brutal for that fact...
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You know, these claims it could regenerate after I ate it? They're giving me indigestion.
So we're all on the same page, let's look:
(Found here, by the way.)
Incorporeal (Ex)
An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it takes only half damage from a corporeal source (except for channel energy). Although it is not a magical attack, holy water can affect incorporeal undead. Corporeal spells and effects that do not cause damage only have a 50% chance of affecting an incorporeal creature. Force spells and effects, such as from a magic missile, affect an incorporeal creature normally.
An incorporeal creature has no natural armor bonus but has a deflection bonus equal to its Charisma bonus (minimum +1, even if the creature’s Charisma score does not normally provide a bonus).
An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object’s exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own. It can sense the presence of creatures or objects within a square adjacent to its current location, but enemies have total concealment (50% miss chance) from an incorporeal creature that is inside an object. In order to see beyond the object it is in and attack normally, the incorporeal creature must emerge. An incorporeal creature inside an object has total cover, but when it attacks a creature outside the object it only has cover, so a creature outside with a readied action could strike at it as it attacks. An incorporeal creature cannot pass through a force effect.
An incorporeal creature’s attacks pass through (ignore) natural armor, armor, and shields, although deflection bonuses and force effects (such as mage armor) work normally against it. Incorporeal creatures pass through and operate in water as easily as they do in air. Incorporeal creatures cannot fall or take falling damage. Incorporeal creatures cannot make trip or grapple attacks, nor can they be tripped or grappled. In fact, they cannot take any physical action that would move or manipulate an opponent or its equipment, nor are they subject to such actions. Incorporeal creatures have no weight and do not set off traps that are triggered by weight.
An incorporeal creature moves silently and cannot be heard with Perception checks if it doesn’t wish to be. It has no Strength score, so its Dexterity modifier applies to its melee attacks, ranged attacks, and CMB. Nonvisual senses, such as scent and blindsight, are either ineffective or only partly effective with regard to incorporeal creatures. Incorporeal creatures have an innate sense of direction and can move at full speed even when they cannot see.
Format: incorporeal; Location: Defensive Abilities.
Bold mine.
And now, Damage Reduction!
Damage Reduction
Some magic creatures have the supernatural ability to instantly heal damage from weapons or ignore blows altogether as though they were invulnerable.
The numerical part of a creature's damage reduction (or DR) is the amount of damage the creature ignores from normal attacks. Usually, a certain type of weapon can overcome this reduction (see Overcoming DR). This information is separated from the damage reduction number by a slash. For example, DR 5/magic means that a creature takes 5 less points of damage from all weapons that are not magic. If a dash follows the slash, then the damage reduction is effective against any attack that does not ignore damage reduction.
Whenever damage reduction completely negates the damage from an attack, it also negates most special effects that accompany the attack, such as injury poison, a monk's stunning, and injury-based disease. Damage Reduction does not negate touch attacks, energy damage dealt along with an attack, or energy drains. Nor does it affect poisons or diseases delivered by inhalation, ingestion, or contact.
Attacks that deal no damage because of the target's damage reduction do not disrupt spells.
Spells, spell-like abilities, and energy attacks (even non-magical fire) ignore damage reduction.
Sometimes damage reduction represents instant healing. Sometimes it represents the creature's tough hide or body. In either case, other characters can see that conventional attacks won't work.
If a creature has damage reduction from more than one source, the two forms of damage reduction do not stack. Instead, the creature gets the benefit of the best damage reduction in a given situation.
Overcoming DR
Damage Reduction may be overcome by special materials, magic weapons (any weapon with a +1 or higher enhancement bonus, not counting the enhancement from masterwork quality), certain types of weapons (such as slashing or bludgeoning), and weapons imbued with an alignment.
Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Similarly, ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an alignment gains the alignment of that projectile weapon (in addition to any alignment it may already have).
Weapons with an enhancement bonus of +3 or greater can ignore some types of damage reduction, regardless of their actual material or alignment. The following table shows what type of enhancement bonus is needed to overcome some common types of damage reduction.
Hm. Well that was a waste of time. :/
Let's try that again, shall we? :)
Damage Reduction (Ex or Su)
A creature with this special quality ignores damage from most weapons and natural attacks. Wounds heal immediately, or the weapon bounces off harmlessly (in either case, the opponent knows the attack was ineffective). The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. A certain kind of weapon can sometimes damage the creature normally, as noted below.
The entry indicates the amount of damage ignored (usually 5 to 15 points) and the type of weapon that negates the ability. Some monsters are vulnerable to piercing, bludgeoning, or slashing damage. Others are vulnerable to certain materials, such as adamantine, alchemical silver, or cold-forged iron. Attacks from weapons that are not of the correct type or made of the correct material have their damage reduced, although a high enhancement bonus can overcome some forms of damage reduction.
Some monsters are vulnerable to magic weapons. Any weapon with at least a +1 magical enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls overcomes the damage reduction of these monsters. Such creatures’ natural weapons (but not their attacks with weapons) are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
A few very powerful monsters are vulnerable only to epic weapons—that is, magic weapons with at least a +6 enhancement bonus. Such creatures’ natural weapons are also treated as epic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Some monsters are vulnerable to good-, evil-, chaotic-, or lawful-aligned weapons, such as from an align weapon spell or the holy magical weapon property. A creature with an alignment subtype (chaotic, evil, good, or lawful) can overcome this type of damage reduction with its natural weapons and weapons it wields as if the weapons or natural weapons had an alignment (or alignments) that matched the subtype(s) of the creature.
When a damage reduction entry has a dash (—) after the slash, no weapon negates the damage reduction.
A few creatures are harmed by more than one kind of weapon, such as “cold iron or magic.” A weapon that inflicts damage of either of these types overcomes this damage reduction.
A few other creatures require combinations of different types of attacks to overcome their damage reduction (such as “magic and silver”), and a weapon must be both types to overcome this type of damage reduction. A weapon that is only one type is still subject to damage reduction.
Format: DR 5/silver; Location: Defensive Abilities.
Ah, there we go. (Bold mine, of course.)
Welp. That's kind of rough. While the argument could be made that it doesn't clearly state "as well as magic", unless you're being pedantic, it's pretty obvious that said phrase is implied (which is what the word "also" is for). Welp. My mind's been changed. :/
Still, the hordes of incoporeals is a pretty solid idea, it'd just be substantially more risky and less guaranteed than previously believed.
At least they only take half damage. :)
You know, these claims it could regenerate after I ate it? They're giving me indigestion.Then prove it can't.
WOOOOOOOSH!
I say, I say, it was a joke, son.
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Point: TOZ
Thanks Tacticslion! It was the bit in the Universal Monster rules I couldn't find. I appreciate you tracking that down.
No problem! :)
Point: TOZI dunno. The Foghorn Leghorn quote counts for something.
But the initial joke lacked in funanium(10 Points if you get this reference).
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I know I'd heard about the City of Tarrasque somewheres...but I'm sure the idea is as old as the Tarrasque itself.
Anyways, I want to play in that campaign. I like the added part about the Allips too...could be another addition to the setting.