Goblin Squad Member
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My hope was for a loosely affiliated group of like-minded people. Since they are like-minded, they tend to make decisions as a group, but there isn't a necessity for every individual to follow the group. I think if this was a solid group, it would just be like any other settlement with it's own particular foci.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What Kakafika said, but I still think someone is going to have to actually buckle down and build a settlement with an eye on kingdom who will be the champion and sponsor for that loosely affiliated group of like-minded people, to be a diplomatically visible representative of their interests and to fund the construction of the needed training facilities.
Think back down to the cellular level, Kobold Cleaver I am thinking that you form cells by building parties, but that in general, except when at war, these parties shuld try and play with a slot open so they can invite new people in, get to know them, and so recruit new players. We're going to find them out there trying to make it alone. If we have a slot open in the party then instead of competing we can be inclusive, thus increasing our number and influence.
So the proposed model is that there will be a NN settlement allied to other settlements and accepting like-minded characters as citizens, and there will be a loosely affiliated network of parties who tend to play together and who will be considered friends of said settlement so long as they choose to be affiliated. In times of need either the settlement can call for aid or parties can call for aid. If the matter is not clear enough for the settlement to launch itself into a fully war footing, it can at least hope to provide one or more war parties for support if needed.
In this wise the settlement could be thouht larger than it is, and the party network can count on a staunch and powerful ally.
I do believe that if there is time, major decisions should be made at a Congress that includes the loosely affiliated party network as an equal partner.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... these parties shuld try and play with a slot open so they can invite new people in...
I am extremely hopeful that PFO will do away with the standard 5 or 6 character group. That seems to me to be an artifact of a Theme Park-centric game design.
I would be quite happy if the content in dungeons was built to challenge a wide range of group sizes, from solo up to a couple dozen.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If dungeons are instanced and GW invests the work (assuming there isn't an affordable mechanism available), then it is possible to use something like a threat rating system to scale encounters. Bioware's Aurora toolset had the beginnings of such a system but even so there are limits to what I believe they could do.
It should be simplified by the relatively shallow power curve, but there are still questions of placement, rate of spawn, and what space there is to make use of that must be considered carefully and tested.
It is not, I think, an insignificant challenge for any game design to be that liberal.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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It is definitely a nontrivial problem to write the procedural generation that will challenge exactly the group which encounters it.
In my mind it would be better to have the dungeon challenge be fixed and independent of who discovered it, but easy enough to estimate before committing. That should have the emergent effect of encouraging whatever group size is unpopular at the time (if huge groups are unpopular, instances which require them will not be completed. And so will be easier to find.)
It's also important that the rewards are also appropriate; perhaps with dynamically adjusted rewards based on how popular that difficulty was? If everybody does solo instances, solo instance rewards gradually and automatically decline. When people start doing group instances, solo instance rewards start to return to baseline.
The goal here would be to avoid the case where there is one best course of action and everybody who wants to maximize is forced into following an identical pattern.
I think we're getting off-topic here.
The tricky bit about the cells is, how do they form in the first place? There's a fine line between an organization "preventing infiltration" and "not actually existing". How will a party/CC form to be exclusively druidic?
I'm honestly just having trouble visualizing this.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think we're getting off-topic here.
Quite, but I think the topic of Group Size and Dungeon Challenge deserves its own thread.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think we're getting off-topic here.
The tricky bit about the cells is, how do they form in the first place? There's a fine line between an organization "preventing infiltration" and "not actually existing". How will a party/CC form to be exclusively druidic?
I'm honestly just having trouble visualizing this.
It would be anti-druidic to be exclusive or elitist. I think a Druid's cell would be composed of more than druids, but also Rangers, Fighters, other clerics, Mages... the key is in like-mindedness.
So if you were exploring a forest and found another person also exploring that forest they might be more like you than different from you. If they fit with you and think like you you will both realize it and tend to group together. This is a natural way to begin forming a cell. It is druidic because of your orientation, not because of party make-up. It is Druidic because of your values and style, your character.
So as you accumulate friends in the game and party with them you will develop bonds. If also you hear of a Neutral-aligned town friendly to Druidic parties or cells you might do business with them, use their training facilities, and contribute to both their culture and eonomy. And if they turn out to be too lawful for your tastes you could agree with your party to move on freely to enjoy the liberty of your way of life. But if the town is amenable to you you might use it as your base of operations, even being citizens thereof.
But in your travels you will find other parties like yours. Make contacts. Check with people you know through whatever messaging system we have, not just to gain something, but to check in and see what's up. By finding each other and creating a grapevine communications network among us in-game we will eventually discover we do indeed have a loose confederation, and will naturally and organically achieve an effective guerilla force, or even formal army, should the need ever arise.
I think we're getting off-topic here.
The tricky bit about the cells is, how do they form in the first place? There's a fine line between an organization "preventing infiltration" and "not actually existing". How will a party/CC form to be exclusively druidic?
I'm honestly just having trouble visualizing this.
An example:
Lets say an enemy settlement has started sending lumberjacks into remote wilderness hexes owned by your settlement, where they have begun to clear cut the trees. For whatever reason, your settlement isn't taking action. One evening while visiting an inn, you overhear someone complaining loudly about this very thing, so you go over and begin talking with them. It turns out that you both feel the same way about this and decide to team up and do something about it. POOF! Your "cell" now has 2 members :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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You simply can't prevent infiltration and also grow.
It's a trivial thing for the organization that's sponsoring the lumberjacks to "plant" an agent in the local inn to loudly complain about it and try to make contact with others who might also want to complain about it.
I believe transparency is the key. I'm not sure how that will play out when I am presented with a situation where it appears I must keep my goals secret in order to achieve them. I intend to put that to the test though, and I think there's a greater-than-zero chance that I will never have to engage in subterfuge.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Did you just see a Jedi master pass by with a kid and a couple of droids we were looking for?This is not the thread I thought it was...
...
A who?
I had intended to reply to the "What games are you playing?" thread and accidentally put that here, so I had to edit. Not sure why I bothered including that sentence.
P.S. Because the intertubes are so bad at conveying inflection and what not, I was trying to be funny with my "A who?" and definitely caught the reference.
It would be anti-druidic to be exclusive or elitist. I think a Druid's cell would be composed of more than druids, but also Rangers, Fighters, other clerics, Mages... the key is in like-mindedness.
Hmph. Well, I was in this group before it got all cool.
(buncha well-articulated stuff)
Ah, I see. So we're talking back to basics--we go out in the world and do our druid stuff, and slowly over time develop contacts. Meanwhile, others form a settlement friendly towards druids and their allies. I'm starting to be able to visualize this.
I don't think infiltration would be a big problem. Actually, I'm a bit torn on whether or not it would be. On the one hand, finding every cell would be tricky even if you get a spy in the settlement. On the other, once you've found every cell, it would be easy to insert a member into each and bring it down from within.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hmph. Well, I was in this group before it got all cool.
I would testify that is the case.
Ah, I see. So we're talking back to basics--we go out in the world and do our druid stuff, and slowly over time develop contacts. Meanwhile, others form a settlement friendly towards druids and their allies. I'm starting to be able to visualize this.
It seems to make sense to build the tree from its roots up.
I don't think infiltration would be a big problem. Actually, I'm a bit torn on whether or not it would be. On the one hand, finding every cell would be tricky even if you get a spy in the settlement. On the other, once you've found every cell, it would be easy to insert a member into each and bring it down from within.
If they find every cell, then perhaps they are good enough to win. It might serve nature for them to do so. We should not be consumed by any hubris that our first effort will always be successful. We should instead stand sure, like the Oak before the storm, and know that should we fall we shall reveal the sky for our acorns to take root under.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Most settlements seem like they will develop from a "grab this spot, secure it, this is our base to slowly expand," mind-set. With the discussion here, it seems more like the world (or at least the wild) is your "settlement" (your focus) and the actual settlement with four walls is just a place for all its members to gather now and again as needed (training, meetings, etc.). One risk with this is that the traditional settlement approach might be easier to protect - at any given time, a good number of players will be in or near their settlement. If most of your druid-ish members are out seeing after the wilderness, who will be minding the shop if unfriendly neighbors decide to attack? Just one point to consider.
I like the idea of a network of "druidic-minded" characters spread across the world, perhaps with each protecting/caring for a specific area of the map. This seems to better mimic the wild itself, where the higher intelligence animals tend to run in relatively small packs or troupes as opposed to anything resembling a human kingdom or army (with the exception of some hive insects or really huge herds like wildebeest). I could see these cells (as Being called them) being headed by one or more Druids as the spiritual leaders (nature anchors?) of the group, with Rangers being their scout-captains and soldiers. As Being also pointed out, other like-minded "classes" would make sense - hedge wizard casters, Barbarians (brings to mind Beorn the Berserker's relationship with Radagast), etc.
I could see druids being the traveling networkers of all groups that revere nature, and acting as ambassadors for the wild, call upon these various groups as needed if their agents tell them about a specific enemy defiling nature. In that we can't permanently level forest or strip-mine the land to bedrock, these anti-wilderness actions may be more a role-played interpretation of other players' actions.
The difficult issues, as mentioned by several posters, is how to create a meaningful degree of organization so as to make this group able to compete with more traditional settlements as well as providing access to things like training, crafting, etc.
Here are a couple thoughts:
For out in the field, I like the idea of Druids/Rangers using the bandit hideout as temporary places to meet in private - a base of operations. I could even see them using the mechanics of knowing when caravans were passing by and stopping them - not to raid, but to flag them down and see if they are willing to trade while passing through. I'm not sure if the mechanic would allow for this - if not, I'm sure someone will point it out. In this way, the more reclusive Druids and Rangers would be able to pick up goods/items they can't craft out in the wild.
For a settlement, instead of a Druid "hot spot" (a settlement obviously run by Druids), perhaps what you could create is a wilderness trading post style settlement that is friendly to the occasional Druid and Ranger. A settlement founded on the frontier by the alts of players whose main characters are Druids, especially a settlement with a more pro-nature feel, could afford Druids and their troupe a place to train and even a point of interest temple for meetings/ceremonies. The regular settlement folk might view Rangers and especially Druids with a certain amount of awe/mystery/reverence. In this way, you could have a settlement for trade, crafting, and training...a home base of sorts if needed for larger gatherings...and yet avoid seeming out-of-character by having Druids acting as traditional settlement managers. Instead, their alts run it for them, and as wilderness trading post merchants, seem totally in-character by doing so. For those who have posted that they want to be crafters, part of a settlement, etc., while having their alts run about as the defenders of nature, this could potentially scratch both itches.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As I see things still, the druids will not be able to advance much further than the starting levels in the NPC settlement, due to the current planned system for structures, with the advance structures must be in settlements. Seeing most druids will be nature based, not the broken urban version, I do not see how the druids will be getting their special enclaves in the forests for advancement in training to be druids.
I do go with the ideas of having loosely connect groups and individuals working own their own in various places, and at times working together on a major threat to nature. This smaller groups also results in a situation where the druids will be unable to build structures due to not owning hexes, as all wilderness hexes are indeed their settlement.
I not worried about having a special enclave to be within a strong neutral aligned kingdom for protection, considering it seems there is no mechanics or developer will to create mechanisms to make the enclave extremely well hidden, and protected.
I say the special training and gathering places for druids should be NPC hexes, scattered throughout the game world. Maybe later as the map grows in size in the new wilderness areas, more advance training structure could appear, or, as the number of druids increase in the world the advance training structure upgrades to be able to train higher druids (basically the structure level is also based on druid numbers, and distance from big settlements).
Another thought just arrived to mind, considering we have dungeon instances, I think it would be possible to have a druid forest enclave as a dungeon. Well seeing the dungeon instance may be locked to an individual, small group, or open to multiple groups, the entrance to the enclave could be control who can enter, such check if person has druid merit badge. More advance training sections, could require higher druid merit badges.
I say have it open, the activities of the druids, due to simple thing called the internet, which oddly is also needed for PFO to exist. We can still have our "secret" places, mainly for training druid skills, and just a nice looking meeting place. No seat of power, and the like.
I think we'll be able to have settlements be more or less "nature friendly". I hope so, anyways.
So, if we're gonna pick a settlement to be friendly towards, any ideas as to who?
The Seventh Veil seems like a good choice to me, too.
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Goblin Squad Member
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We're also assuming Settlements will always be wood and stone affairs.
Elves, especially the nature-leaning ones, have cultivated trees into dwellings through magic and patience, and Fey and Fey-like entities such as Gnomes have also had hidden kingdoms in the wilds.
Ironicly, entering a Druidic Settlement might be just like walking through some trees, until you look up and see a spiderweb-like structure supported by dozens of might Oaks, or any other sort of 'harmonic' Settlement that blends in with the native fauna and flora, not displacing it.
And again, Druids are naturals when it comes to tending to plants and animals. Not every druid lives in the wilds, eating fruits and nuts in some hidden glade away from everyone else. Some dwell within rural villages, acting as a healer and guide to ensure the populace doesn't overwhelm the local resources, which can at times put them in conflict with the more ambitious or greedy members of their home.
A Settlement looking to take on Farming and Lumber as it's primary exports would actually do well to bring in the nearby Druids and get them to help, in exchange for promising to never touch the nearby Sacred Grove/Circle of Standing Stones etc.
Druids might also be a necessity for 'tree farms', encouraging fast growth of such plants which allows the Lumber Mill to harvest much less from the wilds, and in turn, planting more trees within the Hex itself to provide additional forests to encourage more game-animals such as deer, quail and rabbits to spawn, as well as providing additional sources of lumber for later on in the game.
So long as the Lumber-Mill operators don't get greedy and keep pace with the output of the Druid-grown trees, it ensures that the Forest doesn't get reduced to fields of lonely stumps, the Druids get a say in how things run, and everyone gets something.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In a more hostile situation, where nearby Settlements are actively over-logging or over-harvesting the local resources, Druids might actively recruit the nearby 'Bandits' to lend some muscle to the fight.
Neither party wants the local wilderness destroyed. For the Druid, it's a holy place full of nature's creatures, for the Bandits, it's a welcome buffer against the nagging do-gooders of the settlement, and an excellent place to slink off to after the Raids are over.
Once again, a symbiotic relationship occurs, the Bandits start to heavily harrass the gathering crews, inflicting heavy losses on the Settlement and destroying vast quantities of materials in the process due to the currently stated looting system, and the Druids provide not only healing and buffing spells, but also are decent combatants with their shape-changing and animal companions.
With help from a Druid, a Bandit 'camp' might become all but invisible to someone who does not already know it's there, and in turn, stopping the advance of the Settlement also prevents the Bandit's home-base from being uncovered and then destroyed by the Settlement Players.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I starting this thread to see who wants to play druids. What their dreams are and their fears would be in PFO in terms of the game mechanics.
I can't believe I missed this thread. :p
Anyway. I'm strongly pro Team Green. However, I do have one dream slash fear. See, in every video game ever made*, shape shifting has been terrible. It is my fear (read: expectation) that PFO will be no different. It is my dream that PFO will be the first game to introduce non-terrible shape shifting options. I want to be a shape shifting ship shaper. Or something.
*) Maaaybe slightly exaggerated, but not nearly as much as I'd like.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I do have one dream slash fear. See, in every video game ever made*, shape shifting has been terrible. It is my fear (read: expectation) that PFO will be no different. It is my dream that PFO will be the first game to introduce non-terrible shape shifting options. I want to be a shape shifting ship shaper. Or something
Would you sketch out a couple of details for us Slaunyeh? Specifically how were shapeshifting mechanics done poorly, and how do you envision shapeshifting 'done right'?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Would you sketch out a couple of details for us Slaunyeh? Specifically how were shapeshifting mechanics done poorly, and how do you envision shapeshifting 'done right'?
Thankfully I'm not a game developer, so no one's paying me to "do it right". ;)
Generally, poorly done shape shifting mechanics would make you strictly inferior to not shape shifting. Like taking away the benefits of gear in a gear-driven game. The classic "congratulations, you're now an average brown bear in a level 20 dungeon" syndrome.
Preferably, PFO should have shape shifting that is functionally viable.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think with the shallow power curve it should work out this time, especially since I don't believe GW will balance for PvE differently than they balance for PvP. That should make an average brown bear (a.k.a. Kodiak or Grizzly) fairly challenging I would hope, what with natural armor, agility, and massive strength behind those scythe-like claws on each bludgeoning mace of a forepaw, surmounted by jaws and teeth capable of crushing an elk's thighbone.
At 480–533 kg (1,058–1,175 lb) for an average male, these are the largest terrestrial carnivore on the RL planet.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think with the shallow power curve it should work out this time, especially since I don't believe GW will balance for PvE differently than they balance for PvP. That should make an average brown bear (a.k.a. Kodiak or Grizzly) fairly challenging I would hope, what with natural armor, agility, and massive strength behind those scythe-like claws on each bludgeoning mace of a forepaw, surmounted by jaws and teeth capable of crushing an elk's thighbone.
It's not more shallow than you still have three distinct power levels, which seem to be largely gear (and keyword) based.
Maybe it will work out. Maybe it won't. But apparently making a shape shifting ability that doesn't suck is fiendishly difficult, so I'm curious how GW are going to tackle it.
HalfOrc, we're almost certainly not gonna get druid-style settlements right away. That'll be something to hope for later on.
I starting this thread to see who wants to play druids. What their dreams are and their fears would be in PFO in terms of the game mechanics.
I see the druids being pretty much the same as the bandits, not having a settlement called home, but rather scattered through out the lands. Druids would by far be living in the wilds, the dangerous terrain, in order to keep with the theme of being a druid. Away from the protection of settlements, regardless of settlement's alignment.
I see druids not having a guild as such, but a loosely connected group of characters with a common goal of looking after nature.
Similar to bandits having hideouts, we the druids would not have settlements full of various buildings and a kingdom boundary that is home to the settlement. Druids transverse the boundaries of kingdoms. Yet druids would have some simple structures to perform their tasks, and to live in. Structures would mainly be huts, stone hedges, secret groves, faerie circles, etc that are scattered throughout the wilderness. Though there may be a structure in a neutral settlement that the druids could use.
At the moment, there is not much for the druids in terms of the alignment flags.
At least Ryan said, the druids should get their animal companion. That is very good news for us.
So how should the druids go about forming a 'secret' druidic convenient, working together at times to repair nature, defend nature from gross misconduct. Hey, the druids supposed to have a secret language after all for communication.
So other druids out there, what are your ideas, concerns, etc of being a druid in PFO.
I think many have forgotten something.
Druids are priest, priest of nature, but priest never the less.
They are who you turn to, to help better learn how to farm your crops, harvest your trees, build your homes. Doing so, while respecting nature. Food/Shelter is something that all animals require.
Humans are animal, and druid should be there to help the community. Advice the Community on how to better live with in the restraints of there Terran/habitat.
Druids, have such spells as: Healing, cure disease, cure poison to help heal people as well as animals. They have such spells as: Expeditious Excavation, Soften Earth and Stone for getting the earth ready to be tilled for farming. Spell like Plant growth to help make the farm more productive, and spell like Diminish Plants... which can be used to Prune back plants, for more of a Park type fill around community to make the people feel saver.
While a few bad apples, have tarnished the druid name. Many druid started out as Wise Men, Priest of nature, and Adviser to the community.
If priest of Eratil, can spout throns from there body with plant domain, Torag priest can shoot acid from there fingertips, Sarenrae priest can shoot fire from there fingertips, Shelyn priest can shoot electricity from there fingertips, Desna priest bring bad luck with a touch or Cayden cailean priest charming people with a smile...... Why would having priest who can change shape into animal.. four level latter, really be anything new or special.
I do not know, maybe i am just getting old. Maybe i just remember that druid was a sub-set of cleric in 1st ed D&D, or that in 1st & 2nd Ed AD&D... Druid were priest of there community, with a cool spell lineup that could help community .... and wildshape, was just a 1 per day Bird to fly, Reptile (aka Fish) to swim, or Bear to fight and the best part was the 60% heal you got when you turn back to human.
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=( An easier fix to wildshape, would have been to outright prevent druids from casting spell at all, and letting druid keep the animals original Str/Dex/Con. Would have been faster to lookup and use the form from Monster Manual. They could always return to human form, to cast spell while using up one of there daily useage and spending 1 round changing form )=