I can't think of any rules that would contradict that, so as a GM I would say yes.
The only rule that is close is that you can only perform an attack once per AoO event, but because of the two feats (needed by at least two flanking characters), there are two AoO events created by the crit.
And yes, all crits (while flanking with someone else who has one of those feats) cause an AoO, even a crit in an AoO.
I'd say no. The wording is different between the feats, but it's still the same provoking "event"... namely, the baddie getting critted by your ally.
Another crit during the AoO would provoke, though.
In other situations, the same provoking event can trigger multiple AoO.
For example, moving out of a threatened square can provoke from multiple enemies.
Yes. For the same reason that Greater Trip and Vicious Stomp work together as well (as confirmed by the devs).
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Seize the Moment (Combat, Teamwork): "You and your allies are poised to pounce whenever one of you scores a telling blow. Prerequisites: Combat Reflexes, Improved Critical. Benefit: When an ally who also has this feat confirms a critical hit against an opponent that you also threaten, you can make an attack of opportunity against that opponent."
Outflank (Combat, Teamwork): "You look for every edge when flanking an enemy. Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +4. Benefit: Whenever you and an ally who also has this feat are flanking the same creature, your flanking bonus on attack rolls increases to +4. In addition, whenever you score a critical hit against the flanked creature, it provokes an attack of opportunity from your ally."
Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity: "If you have the Combat Reflexes feat, you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent."
So the question is: Is the "opportunity" caused by each feat the same opportunity?
Flavor-wise, I think so. In either case, the 'opportunity' is being ready to smack the guy when your friend lands a good hit.
Rule-wise, I think each feat causes a different opportunity, even if they're both triggered by the same action.
I'd say no. The wording is different between the feats, but it's still the same provoking "event"... namely, the baddie getting critted by your ally.
Another crit during the AoO would provoke, though.
In other situations, the same provoking event can trigger multiple AoO.
For example, moving out of a threatened square can provoke from multiple enemies.
That's completely unrelated... in that example you still have only one provocation per threatener. In the OP, you have two.
True, but it is still one "event": movement. Just like the other one is one "event": crit.
Regardless, if there are no rules saying otherwise, I'd go with yes.
And if LoreKeeper is correct, then we have precedent for a nearly identical situation.
Yes. For the same reason that Greater Trip and Vicious Stomp work together as well (as confirmed by the devs).
I have no clue how what I'm about to say relates to this conversation, but I feel like it's important to point out that those two feats have different triggers. One is when you trip the enemy, and the other is when they fall prone. They are very close, but different.
So there are two different things going on here.
Outflank grants an AoO by your Ally if 1) you crit, 2) both flanking same creature, 3) both have Outflank.
Seize the Moment grants you an AoO if 1) your ally crits, 2) you also threaten, 3) both have this feat.
My reading is that these feats (ignoring the flanking bonus since it is irrelevant for this discussion) are the mirror image of each other.
Outflank: You Crit, they Hit
Seize the Moment: They Crit, You hit.
So, if both allies have both feats then You (Player 1) gets an AoO from your Seize the Moment feat and You (Player 2) grants an ally (Player 1) an AoO. Yes there are two AoO assuming you can AoO more than once per round (Combat Reflexes works, but there are other ways to get this). I don't have a real problem with this since it is only allowed on a circumstance that is rare (1 in 20 chance x chance to confirm) AND you have blown 4 feats to get it done.
EDIT: edited for clarity.
So there are two different things going on here.
Outflank grants an AoO by your Ally if 1) you crit, 2) both flanking same creature, 3) both have Outflank.
Seize the Moment grants you an AoO if 1) your ally crits, 2) you also threaten, 3) both have this feat.My reading is that these feats (ignoring the flanking bonus since it is irrelevant for this discussion) are the mirror image of each other.
Outflank: You Crit, they Hit
Seize the Moment: They Crit, You hit.So, if both allies have both feats then You (the player) gets an AoO from your Seize the Moment feat and You (the other PC) grants an ally (the players) an AoO. Yes there are two AoO assuming you can AoO more than once per round (Combat Reflexes works, but there are other ways to get this). I don't have a real problem with this since it is only allowed on a circumstance that is rare (1 in 20 chance x chance to confirm) AND you have blown 4 feats to get it done.
Holy hell. I've been reading it wrong the entire time. Boy, do I feel sheepish.
Edit: No. wait. You're reading it wrong.
Since both characters have the two feats, it would go like this:
P1: I crit! Hey P2, you get an AoO from me because of Outflank.
P2: You crit! I get an AoO because of Seize the Moment.
So P2 would get two AoO because of one crit.
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I'd say "No" because both are triggered by the exact same thing. All examples that I know of where multiple AoOs can trigger off of one action involve slightly different triggers. The above Greater Trip + Vicious Stomp combo is one example, but another is casting a ranged touch spell and making the attack it offers. Both the casting and the ranged attack provoke separately even though they're the same action because the actual trigger is different.
Movement is an explicit exception to this rule in that a given foe can only provoke once for movement in a round (per threatener, of course). You could take 1,000 move actions to run circles around someone, but if those actions all (somehow) happened in one turn you would still only provoke once per foe.
Holy hell. I've been reading it wrong the entire time. Boy, do I feel sheepish.
Edit: No. wait. You're reading it wrong.
Since both characters have the two feats, it would go like this:
P1: I crit! Hey P2, you get an AoO from me because of Outflank.
P2: You crit! I get an AoO because of Seize the Moment.So P2 would get two AoO because of one crit.
That's what I said.
Outflank grants an AoO by your Ally if 1) you crit, 2) both flanking same creature, 3) both have Outflank.
That's true only so long as both characters actually have the feat.
Solo Tactics causes Outflank to work backwards (see FAQ), because "bonus" in that case doesn't mean the benefit line of the feat, it means 'vaguely defined positive outcome resulting from usage of the feat'.
So if both characters have Outflank, it works as written (granting YOU the ability to cause a foe to provoke) whereas with Solo Tactics, it grants your ALLY the ability to cause a foe to provoke, because making an attack of opportunity is 'cooler' than causing one.
That's what I said.Holy hell. I've been reading it wrong the entire time. Boy, do I feel sheepish.
Edit: No. wait. You're reading it wrong.
Since both characters have the two feats, it would go like this:
P1: I crit! Hey P2, you get an AoO from me because of Outflank.
P2: You crit! I get an AoO because of Seize the Moment.So P2 would get two AoO because of one crit.
I am so confused. I'm giving up now before I fall further.
Wasn't there a similar thread where the debate was about casting Scorching Ray (which provokes because of spellcasting and also provokes because it's a ranged attack)?
Wasn't there a similar thread where the debate was about casting Scorching Ray (which provokes because of spellcasting and also provokes because it's a ranged attack)?
We don't speak of that thread.
It's not too complicated, really, though I can understand your confusion. There is only one event taking place, namely, your ally getting the critical hit. We all know you can only get one AoO per provoking event, regardless of how many AoO's you could potentially take (Combat Reflexes, etc.).
Therefore, regardless of how many reasons you have to take an AoO upon this critical, you still only get the one.
The example others pointed out (Vicious Stomp + Greater Trip) is a different situation. Vicious Stomp triggers when they hit the ground adjacent to you, regardless of whether you were the thing that tripped them or not, whereas Greater Trip triggers only when you trip them. Two separate events, although very close to one another.
Short answers to your original questions, based on these conclusions:
"Would I get two attacks of opportunity if my flanking partner confirmed a critical hit?"
No. One event, one attack.
"Let's say my flanking partner has Outflank as well. Two AoOs?"
Still just the one.
"If one of my AoOs was a critical, would my partner get an AoO too?"
Yes. Your critical hit would trigger Outflank for them.
I know I'm just reiterating what other folks have said, but I hope that makes it clear.
We all know you can only get one AoO per provoking event, regardless of how many AoO's you could potentially take (Combat Reflexes, etc.).
How do we know that? Where is it in the rules?
Wasn't there a similar thread where the debate was about casting Scorching Ray (which provokes because of spellcasting and also provokes because it's a ranged attack)?We don't speak of that thread.
I assume that thread didn't actually come to any real conclusion or consensus?
Movement is a single event that may provoke for the same reason repeatedly, but only the first is considered.
Here we have a single event (flanking ally critically hits) that provokes an AoO for two different reasons ("My ally crit, I get an AoO" and "I crit, my ally gets an AoO").
Scorching Ray is a single event that provokes an AoO both for spell casting and a ranged attack. Does this actually end up with two AoOs? Whatever is true for Scorching Ray should also be true for Outflank/Seize the Moment.
This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity)
Basically, it means that if you have 5 potential AoOs you can make, and someone provokes once, you can't take all 5 attacks on that one opportunity.
That makes sense. However, there isn't one opportunity. There are two: One from Outflank and a second from Seize the Moment.
There might only be one event, but there are two opportunities.
Wasn't there a similar thread where the debate was about casting Scorching Ray (which provokes because of spellcasting and also provokes because it's a ranged attack)?We don't speak of that thread.I assume that thread didn't actually come to any real conclusion or consensus?
Movement is a single event that may provoke for the same reason repeatedly, but only the first is considered.
Here we have a single event (flanking ally critically hits) that provokes an AoO for two different reasons ("My ally crit, I get an AoO" and "I crit, my ally gets an AoO").
Scorching Ray is a single event that provokes an AoO both for spell casting and a ranged attack. Does this actually end up with two AoOs? Whatever is true for Scorching Ray should also be true for Outflank/Seize the Moment.
No, it was just a nasty thread. Someone took something James said out of context and used it as justification for how scorching ray would only provoke one single AoO. In fact, how ALL actions could ever provoke once. And it went on for something like a thousand posts. It was nasty.
And then Jason said in the FAQ that this would provoke twice, so there are two AoOs you could take, if you had multiple available ones.
That makes sense. However, there isn't one opportunity. There are two: One from Outflank and a second from Seize the Moment.
There might only be one event, but there are two opportunities.
Same thing. If you spot an opening in combat, it doesn't matter how many ways they're open, they're only open once.
And then Jason said in the FAQ that this would provoke twice, so there are two AoOs you could take, if you had multiple available ones.
I don't see anything in the FAQ, but maybe I just missed it.
When you cast a spell that allows you to make a ranged touch attack, such as scorching ray, and an enemy is within reach, do you provoke two attacks of opportunity?
Yes, you provoke two attacks of opportunity, one for casting the spell and one for making a ranged attack, since these are two separate events. As a note, since all of the rays are fired simultaneously (in the case of scorching ray), you would only provoke one attack of opportunity for making the ranged attack, even if you fired more than one ray.
Two provocations of AoOs. That means two possible AoOs, one for each provocation since these are separate events / opportunities.
but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity).
Which FAQ is this in? I would've thought the Core Rulebook FAQ, but searching the page for "opportunity" doesn't turn anything up.
EDIT: Oh...it's in a blog post, not in the FAQ!
Yea...they called it a FAQ blog post, but haven't actually added it to the FAQ. Makes it awkward...