Goblin Squad Member
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I notice the effects of assassination (in addition to a plain death) are targeted at influencing the outcome of larger battles.
That's great news for assassins who want to get involved in politics, but on the other hand there doesn't seem to be much incentive to take on contracts that target individuals outside of such large scale situations.
I shouldn't say none, but it will take careful situational planning on the assassin's part to make sure that depriving someone of their favored respawn is actually going to matter.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think that flagging as a Champion might serve well for the Challenge mechanic I was proposing. If I'm getting a "hinky" vibe from someone, they'll probably be Evil, and my choice to start flagging as a Champion while keeping an eye on them should probably give them the hint they need to leave.
Very pleased with the blog, and even more pleased to see that there aren't a lot of complaints about it. Good job.
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Overall, I am feeling very positive after this most recent blog entry! I love the flags and how they have been fleshed out a bit. A few things, though:
To combat the concern about bandits abusing S.A.D. by asking for too much loot, have it be a bandit Sense Motive/Search/Spot (best) vs. trader Bluff/Diplo/Intimidate and based on who wins, the computer generates a percentage of the loot. That way, if the trader has a fantastic bluff and beats the hell out of the bandit's roll, he keep more of his loot. In converse, if the bandit has a great spot, he may get a larger cut. I don't like the thought of the computer advertising how much loot a trader is carrying; it seems dangerous.
Also regarding S.A.D., to combat the "conga line", perhaps, like the "killed" flag, there could be a "protected" or "fleeced" flag for traders that pay their toll.
Speaking of the "killed" flag, I don't think I get it. I agree with Imbicatus that it should increase penalty, not decrease bonus, as I understand it. Can someone explain why it is the way it has been laid out so that I understand the reasoning?
Regarding reputation (and this is a small thing, just personal preference, really), I think that the "poor" rep should be high and the "good" rep should be low, with penalties and bonuses switched appropriately. The reason is that doing nothing should not increase your rep, it should decrease it (a positive action) because you are not doing anything to be recognized for. Reputation is basically a way of us, players, judging whether our fellows are trustworthy and this scale just makes more sense to my brain.
Lastly, I think that the natural alignment your character moves towards by doing nothing should be equal to the alignment of the territory you are in, with wilderness being true neutral. I agree with what many people are saying about not being able to become LG by doing nothing--unless you are living in a LG area, surrounded by LG people doing LG things, it's bound to rub off.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I generally agree with this, though would now propose ...
1. If in a settlement for several days doing nothing except maybe trade and craft the "influence" of the settlement gradually moves you towards that settlements alignment.
2. If you are randomly wandering the wilderness doing nothing but maybe gather and explore you "go wild" and your alignment gradually moves towards true neutral.
Could be interesting. You could make the argument that by being part of that society then you are actively pushing its agenda. But I disagree.
In a particular society, it would be easier to maintain your alignment if it matches that society. More newbs in a Good town to help. Less penalties in an Evil town for casual murder. More societies in a Lawful town to join. Less rules in a Chaotic town to break.But the Neutrals who want the safety and connections of a Lawful Good society without making any contribution to that society, should stay Neutral. And the Neutral that wants the freedom of a Chaotic society in exchange for reduced access to groups should also not swing chaotic.
I think alignments should be worked at. They each should have their own rewards and penalties. The only 'free' alignment should be True Neutral.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Discussion thread for new blog entry Goblinworks Blog: I Shot a Man in Reno Just To Watch Him Die.
I don't like it. LoL.
So if we're at war and we have a raid planned at 6pm our raid leader is going to require everyone to log on an hour early to flag themselves as Champion to get a Crit Resist bonus...or assassin to get stealth bonus...
Bandits can just demand 1,000 gold with Stand/Deliver and reduce their penalties for kiling you when you decline. AND get more loot!
I see these flags being abused in a number of ways.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Having reputation increase over time for not taking reputation hits, makes sense.
Having alignments move towards lawful make sense.
Having alignments move towards good does not make sense (to me). I think it should tend towards neutral and your actions would sway it to good or evil, and your inaction would allow it to slip to neutral. You should have to work to be good or evil.
"Long-Term Flags
•Each of these flags has an alignment requirement to activate."Questions:
Am I to understand that I must be the associated alignment in order to activate a long-term flag?
Does keeping that flag active lock (pause/stop) your alinment movement on that scale as long as you wear it? (ex: flagging as outlaw keeps you from slipping towards lawful, but increases your chaotic by successful stand and deliver acts). Or in other words, can I slip towards neutral and when I do so lose my Outlaw flag?
These are excellent questions "Greed" and I agree on the automatic shift being towards Lawful Neutral rather than Lawful Good.
If we as bandits just stuck to the mechanics as designed, we would more than likely gravitate to Chaotic Good, rather than Chaotic Neutral as i was predicting before.
We would have to through in a few killings, just to stay out of the "Good", but not too many to avoid the "Evil", so that after we log off we would likely sleep at Chaotic Neutral.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I like the idea of doing nothing moves you towards 0. Makes it easier for traders to stay neutral so they can get the trading bonus for flagging themselves.
In the case of Evil vs Good moving towards 0, this should be a long process, I'm thinking months for someone at either extreme.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... Bravo! Nice, you have sold me on the whole "long term flag" idea.
Make that two of us!
Certainly some ajust may and will be done but looking at the whole thing it a great job!
I'm worried though in relation to the heinous flag. I'm wondering if that flag is well placed or needs revision. For example, if necromancy is allowed as a char skill path in the game, why punish that much evil chars for using it by applying a very negative flag like that.
I wonder if another flag should not be created for that case speecifically, or if the heinous flag should not come with some sort of advantage as, for example, black magic bonus, or bonus in magic crafting skills, or something like that, to balance the system and make necromancy worth of trying.
As stands it looks unlikelly that this aspect of gameplay will be explored by most evil players, even the ones RP the vilest chars.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Will issuing a Stand and Deliver give the outlaw the attacker flag? If not people are just going to spam everyone they meet. If denied they just move on to the next person without attacking.
If someone demands my money or my life I should be able to beat them down without consequences.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Discussion thread for new blog entry Goblinworks Blog: I Shot a Man in Reno Just To Watch Him Die.I don't like it. LoL.
So if we're at war and we have a raid planned at 6pm our raid leader is going to require everyone to log on an hour early to flag themselves as Champion to get a Crit Resist bonus...or assassin to get stealth bonus...
A well planned battle then! Just don't try to do anything else in that hour and hope your opposition don't do the same back to you.
Bandits can just demand 1,000 gold with Stand/Deliver and reduce their penalties for kiling you when you decline. AND get more loot!
Unless of course they're killed, then they get nothing and most likely a death curse and a manual reputation hit. We're not sure how the trade window will work either. The Bandit may have three 'guesses' at how much the victim has, and if he goes over after these attempt, maybe he will suffer a reputation hit or the like. Plenty of options available here.
I see these flags being abused in a number of ways.
As can any mechanic really. That is there are other options such as bounties, death curses and manualo reputation hits.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Discussion thread for new blog entry Goblinworks Blog: I Shot a Man in Reno Just To Watch Him Die.I don't like it. LoL.
So if we're at war and we have a raid planned at 6pm our raid leader is going to require everyone to log on an hour early to flag themselves as Champion to get a Crit Resist bonus...or assassin to get stealth bonus...
Bandits can just demand 1,000 gold with Stand/Deliver and reduce their penalties for kiling you when you decline. AND get more loot!
I see these flags being abused in a number of ways.
First you forgot, Traveler / Merchants get to carry more loot and faster as well...
So this is how I see this:
Good gets to kill evil, without suffering too much, and logging off will move them back to good.
Evil gets to kill good, without suffering too much, and logging off would likely only move them to neutral.
Bandits get to rob merchants, without suffering too much, and logging off will likely move to them to CN or CG.
Merchants get to earn more gold, without losing too much, and logging off will move them to Lawful Good (which will have the best access to the best markets, crafting and skill training).
I agree with those that said... Only the Necromancer gets screwed, unless the Necromancer is OP powerful.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What tools does GW envision the player having available in real time during combat to give players the feedback required to determine and judge the penalties or rewards involved in any particular encounter with another player?
Will we need a 4 year degree in game mechanics and a 20 minute timeout before attacking to know whats going to happen?
Will we get a immersion breaking stat popup listing players reputation vs ours and how much of a hit/increase we get?
A similar popup for Law/Chaotic & Good/Evil?
Or will we just have to wing it and hope we don't screw ourselves over too much every time we engage in pvp?
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Goblin Squad Member
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These flags are going to be used mostly when people have no intention of doing the associated actions...I guess thats my biggest problem.
Before a war, you place assassination contracts on your enemy guild, you all flag as assassin, now you're limiting their ability to get back into the fight quicker by severing bind points.
Some say "good tactics" but I say "exploiting the system".
I like the idea of doing nothing moves you towards 0. Makes it easier for traders to stay neutral so they can get the trading bonus for flagging themselves.
In the case of Evil vs Good moving towards 0, this should be a long process, I'm thinking months for someone at either extreme.
I agree with this also. So it seems everyone starts at zero?
Question: will Chaotic good settlements truly exist? I do not see how an Elven city, for example, could be truly effective unless it were headed for Lawful good. How can you have Chaotic settlements at all?
This is excellent work! I am opposed to alignments, but this is something more.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Bandits can just demand 1,000 gold with Stand/Deliver and reduce their penalties for kiling you when you decline. AND get more loot!
It's possible instead of doing a set amount, you demand a % of their cargo, and maybe a max of 60-75%. Or maybe GW says no mercy, and allows demands of 100%
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Goblin Squad Member
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Still seems like that heinous flag is too harsh and unnecessary. Basically you still can't perform any heinous act in your own city, even though it may be perfectly legal to, without getting attacked by everyone around you. So no using slave labor in an Asmodeus worshiping lawful evil city.
Yes that makes total sense. /sarcasm
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Goblin Squad Member
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Bandits can just demand 1,000 gold with Stand/Deliver and reduce their penalties for kiling you when you decline. AND get more loot!It's possible instead of doing a set amount, you demand a % of their cargo, and maybe a max of 60-75%. Or maybe GW says no mercy, and allows demands of 100%
I do believe the phrase is "Gimme all your money!"
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Goblin Squad Member
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The idea that doing nothing for several days makes you eventually Lawful Good is rather odd.
It would make more sense and the system would function MUCH better if the automatic movement that occurs is towards true neutral.
Agreed.
"All that is required for evil to flourish is for good to do nothing."
And indeed, the PFRPG states, "Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others."
Paladins should have to work to maintain their alignment. If you're not prepared to make sacrifices, you're not prepared to be a paladin. I'm not saying don't give them huge rewards. Give them smite, give them Holy Avengers. But I am saying they must work for it. And harder than a Lawful Good Fighter.
Evil is it's own reward- you get to loot, kill, steal, mug and have access to slaves and undead. It should be flagged. If you don't want to spend all your time in a dog eat dog world of might makes right, which includes people bigger than you smashing you, or weaker than you ganging up on you, don't play Evil. Avoid tags and flags.
Neutral is where people should end up. You don't steal, you don't donate. If things go south nearby, you don't risk your neck.
Likewise, Law and Chaos. If you want to be Lawful, make the effort. Draw up contracts. Follow through, every time. Be a regular part of social groups. Contribute to your community. Even Lawful Evil make donations that will further their societies. Lawfuls will gain benefits from their societies if they make those sacrifices.
If you want to be Chaotic, adventure alone, travel lots, ignore rules and regulations. Exercise your freedoms and move on before consequences catch you.
Neutral should be the default alignment. If you don't want to be Neutral then you should be working towards a cause.
Agreed. Especially if Lawful settlements tend to run better than Chaotic ones.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It seems to reason that only those with the associated alignment can flag it corresponds to. Think assassin and champion.
Does this mean Evil will have an advantage at bounty hunting and war? They will not be attacker flagged in war so they will never lose their max bonus to stealth and crit. Is this right? While the Champion does get perception and defense to themselves only.
I am wondering if this will cause a war time imbalance. We all know the good vs' evil war will start once we can destroy each others settlements.
Besides that any bounty hunter not evil might be gimping themselves.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Agreed. Especially if Lawful settlements tend to run better than Chaotic ones.The idea that doing nothing for several days makes you eventually Lawful Good is rather odd.
It would make more sense and the system would function MUCH better if the automatic movement that occurs is towards true neutral.
Agreed.
"All that is required for evil to flourish is for good to do nothing."
And indeed, the PFRPG states, "Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others."
Paladins should have to work to maintain their alignment. If you're not prepared to make sacrifices, you're not prepared to be a paladin. I'm not saying don't give them huge rewards. Give them smite, give them Holy Avengers. But I am saying they must work for it. And harder than a Lawful Good Fighter.
Evil is it's own reward- you get to loot, kill, steal, mug and have access to slaves and undead. It should be flagged. If you don't want to spend all your time in a dog eat dog world of might makes right, which includes people bigger than you smashing you, or weaker than you ganging up on you, don't play Evil. Avoid tags and flags.
Neutral is where people should end up. You don't steal, you don't donate. If things go south nearby, you don't risk your neck.
Likewise, Law and Chaos. If you want to be Lawful, make the effort. Draw up contracts. Follow through, every time. Be a regular part of social groups. Contribute to your community. Even Lawful Evil make donations that will further their societies. Lawfuls will gain benefits from their societies if they make those sacrifices.
If you want to be Chaotic, adventure alone, travel lots, ignore rules and regulations. Exercise your freedoms and move on before consequences catch you.
Neutral should be the default alignment. If you don't want to be Neutral then you should be working towards a cause.
I agree as well, inaction should move you towards neutral.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Bandits can just demand 1,000 gold with Stand/Deliver and reduce their penalties for kiling you when you decline. AND get more loot!It's possible instead of doing a set amount, you demand a % of their cargo, and maybe a max of 60-75%. Or maybe GW says no mercy, and allows demands of 100%
or just let the "market" decide...
The bandit will have to have some ability to appraise the value of the cargo on hand. Skill level or lack thereof would grant a +/- % accuracy.
The caravan leader will have to have some ability to evaluate the strength of the bandit force, so that he can appraise his situation.
Next step is the demand. This is done in a trade window, Bandit puts in a demand. The Merchant counter offers. Bandit puts in either the same demand, or lowers it. The merchant accepts it or rejects it. This can go back a forth for some time, I would guess.
Finally, the demand is rejected....
Bandit then has a choice, attack within the next 5 minutes or move on to another target.
The problem with having a preset % is that that takes out the human interaction the Devs are looking for.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What tools does GW envision the player having available in real time during combat to give players the feedback required to determine and judge the penalties or rewards involved in any particular encounter with another player?
Will we need a 4 year degree in game mechanics and a 20 minute timeout before attacking to know whats going to happen?
Will we get a immersion breaking stat popup listing players reputation vs ours and how much of a hit/increase we get?
A similar popup for Law/Chaotic & Good/Evil?
Or will we just have to wing it and hope we don't screw ourselves over too much every time we engage in pvp?
I was thinking the same thing, what the devs haven't told us is that all the combat is actually turn based! :P
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Goblin Squad Member
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I feel much better having read this blog. I'm a bit interested that the Stand and Deliver mechanic blocks reputation loss for bandits. I agree it should limit it, at a bare minimum halve it, but at the end of the day you did steal items from another person with the threat of violence. I want banditry to be a viable gameplay mechanic, but I have a hard time seeing theft as something that doesn't move your alignment and reputation all over the place.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I was thinking the same thing, what the devs haven't told us is that all the combat is actually turn based! :PWhat tools does GW envision the player having available in real time during combat to give players the feedback required to determine and judge the penalties or rewards involved in any particular encounter with another player?
Will we need a 4 year degree in game mechanics and a 20 minute timeout before attacking to know whats going to happen?
Will we get a immersion breaking stat popup listing players reputation vs ours and how much of a hit/increase we get?
A similar popup for Law/Chaotic & Good/Evil?
Or will we just have to wing it and hope we don't screw ourselves over too much every time we engage in pvp?
Or you could plan ahead and roleplay your character concept and if your PvP actions force you to drift away from your chosen alignment, sit down and plan out a slightly different concept or modify your behaviour.
Effectively, don't gank random people at random intervals and you should be fine.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It seems to reason that only those with the associated alignment can flag it corresponds to. Think assassin and champion.
Does this mean Evil will have an advantage at bounty hunting and war? They will not be attacker flagged in war so they will never lose their max bonus to stealth and crit. Is this right? While the Champion does get perception and defense to themselves only.
I am wondering if this will cause a war time imbalance. We all know the good vs' evil war will start once we can destroy each others settlements.
Besides that any bounty hunter not evil might be gimping themselves.
Are you sure those flags will apply to who you are at war with? IMO there is no use to a flag if you already can attack who you are at war anyway. I'm pretty sure most if any of those flags work against war enemies.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Discussion thread for new blog entry Goblinworks Blog: I Shot a Man in Reno Just To Watch Him Die.I don't like it. LoL.
So if we're at war and we have a raid planned at 6pm our raid leader is going to require everyone to log on an hour early to flag themselves as Champion to get a Crit Resist bonus...or assassin to get stealth bonus...
Possibly make the flag bonus inactive in war against war opponents ?
I like the idea of doing nothing moves you towards 0. Makes it easier for traders to stay neutral so they can get the trading bonus for flagging themselves.
In the case of Evil vs Good moving towards 0, this should be a long process, I'm thinking months for someone at either extreme.
I agree with this also. So it seems everyone starts at zero?
Question: will Chaotic good settlements truly exist? I do not see how an Elven city, for example, could be truly effective unless it were headed for Lawful good. How can you have Chaotic settlements at all?
This is excellent work! I am opposed to alignments, but this is something more.
Chaotic does not always equate to criminal.
A classic example of functional Chaotic Good is a settlement that does not need strict criminal laws (just a few rules like "which side of the road to drive") as every in the community is super concerned about the welfare of others and is always "other regarding". If everyone is working hard for the good of the overall community (GOOD) you do not need strong laws just a few minimal guidelines (CHAOTIC).
Basically a CG settlement can be Chaotic (minimal laws) but function OK because everyone is good and hence has a common goal - the good of the settlement.
Its CE settlements that should struggle. A CE settlement would only function well during times an external force (for example a common threat or enemy) forced them to have a common goal.
I do not like the idea of everyone starting at zero your character already has a back story with an alignment history.
I am very strongly opposed to the idea if you do nothing (even in a LE city) you eventually become LG. If that were the case locking up criminals in solitary should cure them of all criminal tendencies.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Valid solution to playing a necromancer, when you are killed you actually become the undead and can continue fighting.
oh ... we can play a Lich now :D
Wouldn't a Lich be heinous just because he is a Lich ?
On another note ... having human players that are vulnerable to channeling will sure make clerics more popular :D
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Goblin Squad Member
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Bandits can just demand 1,000 gold with Stand/Deliver and reduce their penalties for kiling you when you decline. AND get more loot!It's possible instead of doing a set amount, you demand a % of their cargo, and maybe a max of 60-75%. Or maybe GW says no mercy, and allows demands of 100%or just let the "market" decide...
The bandit will have to have some ability to appraise the value of the cargo on hand. Skill level or lack thereof would grant a +/- % accuracy.
The caravan leader will have to have some ability to evaluate the strength of the bandit force, so that he can appraise his situation.
Next step is the demand. This is done in a trade window, Bandit puts in a demand. The Merchant counter offers. Bandit puts in either the same demand, or lowers it. The merchant accepts it or rejects it. This can go back a forth for some time, I would guess.
Finally, the demand is rejected....
Bandit then has a choice, attack within the next 5 minutes or move on to another target.
The problem with having a preset % is that that takes out the human interaction the Devs are looking for.
The idea I could as a bandit go "1million gold....1million gold...1million gold", kill them get more loot and no reputation hit also goes against wolves and sheep having fun.
I understand that for you and your company that might be fine. You don't seem to be out to grief people. Unfortunately you are not speaking for all bandits. I know plenty of them that would act in this fashion.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Let me see if I understand this properly...
1.) If you do not break any laws, you will start to become more Lawful-aligned.
2.) The longer you avoid criminal activity, the faster you become more Lawful-aligned.
Then if one were to stand around in a safe zone doing nothing, they would eventually become completely Lawful-aligned?
To maintain a Chaotic alignment, the character must also be a criminal?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Are you sure those flags will apply to who you are at war with? IMO there is no use to a flag if you already can attack who you are at war anyway. I'm pretty sure must if any of those flags work against war enemies.It seems to reason that only those with the associated alignment can flag it corresponds to. Think assassin and champion.
Does this mean Evil will have an advantage at bounty hunting and war? They will not be attacker flagged in war so they will never lose their max bonus to stealth and crit. Is this right? While the Champion does get perception and defense to themselves only.
I am wondering if this will cause a war time imbalance. We all know the good vs' evil war will start once we can destroy each others settlements.
Besides that any bounty hunter not evil might be gimping themselves.
It reads that way to me. In fact if my settlement is at war with another would be likely the only time I use most of the flags. Take a look at the assassin flag....
This flag cannot be disabled while Attacker, Criminal, or Heinous (or their 24-hour versions) are active.
While Assassin is active:
The player gets a bonus to Stealth and critical chance that scales up each hour they remain flagged, up to ten hours.
These bonuses reset to the minimum upon gaining the Attacker flag unless the target was the subject of a bounty or assassination contract held by the Assassin. (Remember: you don't get Attacker in wars, if the target already has a PvP flag, etc.)
If an Assassin has had his flag active for at least an hour and kills a character with an active bounty or assassination contract, the Assassin gains bonus reputation up to a daily max. (Any other kills made by the Assassin suffer the normal reputation and alignment losses, so keep collateral damage to a minimum!)
Attacks by an Assassin have a chance to sever a link to one of the target's respawn bind spots, meaning they may have not have access to their preferred respawn point if killed. Targets killed by an Assassin have a dramatically higher chance of this happening. So assassinating someone may take them out of the action for a while as they work their way back to their original location over a longer distance.
Those stats are damn nice if you are attacking a settlement and can not be hit by Attacker or Criminal flags while active against that settlement.
Think of "Attacks by an Assassin have a chance to sever a link to one of the target's respawn bind spots, meaning they may have not have access to their preferred respawn point if killed. Targets killed by an Assassin have a dramatically higher chance of this happening. So assassinating someone may take them out of the action for a while as they work their way back to their original location over a longer distance." in war. So you kill them and they can't spawn back in there settlement or a spot nearby? That is really really powerful. While the evil forces could spawn close the good guys are spawning 30min away. If I can flag in wars and have it effect my enemy I think I might need to be evil.
It would make more sense and the system would function MUCH better if the automatic movement that occurs is towards true neutral.
I would just prefer to have NO 'automatic alignment drift' towards ANYTHING, but if it does exist, towards Neutral is the only thing that makes sense. I don't really know why it needs to exist though... It definitely should only be tied into active, logged-in play (with some sort of system to prevent people from just leaving their character logged in in a safe place like a home city, 24/7). Players who only occassionaly play the game shouldn't have disproportionately Neutral(/other) alignments, if the actions they do take during play are just as far from Neutral as other players. Part of the issue with discussing that type of thing, is we have little specifics on the OTHER classes of alignment/reputation shifting actions OUTSIDE of combat/PVP. I still feel that automatic alignment drift isn't needed, and if there is a broad and robust enough association with non-combat actions, there is no need for it.
The bit about being able to 'gift' other characters alignment/reputation seemed a bit weird, but that could be important to some characters, to the extent that it isn't really a 'gift' to them, but a 'trade' i.e. in lieu for a reduction in prices the other party also 'gifts' them with some alignment/reputation. Or especially for reputation, it makes sense that EVERY transaction has some associated reputation 'equalization' between the parties, if you often deal with low rep characters your rep will also lower...? Effectively, that establishes a 'gradient' of reputation, high rep chracters would be OK with dealing with medium-rep characters, but not really low rep characters...? (but contracts like assassinations could be farmed out sub-contractor style?)
The Traveller Flag was interesting, as well as it's Neutral association (some people seem to question why it has any Alignment requirement at all, albeit that is the most relaxed one). I do wonder if there could be OTHER Neutral PVP Flags, less for Merchants, and more for Neutral characters in the vein of Druids, Bards, other characters who want to walk the path of Neutrality... Perhaps a TRUE Neutral specific PVP flag? They kind of need a more combat focused one since they can't take the other Alignment PVP flags.
I am kind of dubious about the certain Law/Chaos-associated Flags removing alignment consequences, namely removing Good/Evil repurcussions if a LG types goes out and kills CG types who are 'legit' targets because they are Criminals, etc. If you want to act like a Sheriff, fine, but that isn't Paladin material either. Good types should just not be hunting down other Good types on a regular basis, if they do it on rare occasion, it should be something that they could 'recover' from normally by doing other Good deeds. I guess I would be OK with a REDUCTION in the normal Good>Evil shift in this case, but not a removal of it... That would make it still a signifigant Evil shift if the target was 'maximally' Good, but not so much if they were just a little bit Good.
I was curious about the Outlaw Flag, it was stated as being perfect for CG Robin Hood types, but as written, it just removes REPUTATION penalties (if you offer stand and deliver), it doesn't do anything about Good/Evil axis shifts if you attack somebody after they refuse the stand and deliver...??? Not sure if that is an oversight, or what... but as-is, I think it's confusing to go out of the way to say it's appropriate for CG Robin Hood types... If you are only attacking/robbing characters who themselves have PVP or long-duration Criminal/Heinous tags, then the reputation/alignment effects don't matter anyways, and you can just reap the (Looting) benefits of the Flag, but it seems a bit unclear to me.
Overall, I like the PVP flags, and think they will appeal to players into smaller scale skirmish events, large scale wars already absolve alignment and reputation repurcussions, but this enables the smaller scale conflicts that are appealing to alot of players. The bifurcation of bonuses to Stealth and Perception does set up a fun 'Red vs Blue' dynamic (in TWO axises in this case).
It does sound like when you are in a declared war, that most players will go ahead and select one of the PVP flags to gain the benefit of it, since the only difference in alignment/repurcussions would be for starting fights with unrelated 3rd parties (not declaring war). Although it may be a sneaky tactic for one warring group to have some allies who aren't 'declared' and thus either force penalties if you attack them first, or dissuade you from attacking them first - if they are mixed into the warring group, and you can't easily tell the difference, that could be a pain in the ass. Of course, if these allies don't have PVP flags, they are missing out on the associated bonuses, but if they cause your opponents to lose THEIR bonuses or suffer alignment effects which might affect their class abilities, it could be worth it :-)
One thing that seemed weird: ALL of the PVP flags make it so there is no alignment or reputation repurcussions to attacking you, for anybody. So if I am LG or CG Crusader, then any Good person can attack me without losing Goodness. Same thing for a NG Traveller who puts themselves open to attack by NG types. So... not sure if it needs the 'blanket' removal of all repurcussions, as much as just 'polarizing' the normally variable effects based on alignment/reputation/etc (killing an evil char normally shifts your alignment less to evil than a neutral/good character, Champion should just change everything more Evil than Neutral to zero Evil effect on your Good/Evil alignment). Maybe Traveller could just remove REPUTATION and Chaos/Law effects for attacking them unprovoked, not Good/Evil? I think as-is, the effect of the PVP flags make just a little bit too much incentive to act totally against your own alignment, which I don't think should be the goal, rather, it should just 'lighten the repurcussions' for doing stuff that fundamentally DOES fall within the realm of your alignment.
Somebody raised the issue of Settlements that want to legally allow the things that cause Heinous alignment... I'm not sure if that's really a problem. Those Settlements can still make it so those Heinous acts are not crimes in their settlement, and can still protect Heinous Flagged characters by making it a CRIME to attack them unprovoked... Characters who don't care about that Settlement's laws can attack the Heinous character without repurcussions on their Alignment or Reputation, since those are in reference to universal or "Cosmic" values, but they will still get the Criminal Flag in the relevant territories.
I guess Heinous characters/groups might feel aggrieved that REPUTATION also doesn't suffer for attacking them, but I guess that's what you get for going so against the Cosmic norms. If there's a system whereby Settlements can recognize each other's laws (and Criminal Flags) than Settlements that allow such Heinous activities will effectively be able to see a 'Heinous neutral' reputation by the Criminal Flag...
(the bounty system blog mentioned how you might gain info about a target, and other blogs have mentioned having info about a character based on mutual relationships, similarly there could be a system to know WHAT law(s) were broken and WHERE for a Criminal-Flagged character )
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Vocabulary Note: In a game where "Good" is a specific rules term for one pole of one alignment axis, it can get very confusing to use 'good' more generally for things like 'preferable'/'better'/'ideal'/etc. So avoiding terms like 'good reputation' 'good buildings' when Good Alignment isn't intended is probably a good idea (AHEM :-)). Reputation can be 'High' and 'Low', other things can be 'stronger'/'better'/'more poweful'/etc.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I assume that a Bandit who concludes a stand-and-deliver trade will still be flagged as a Criminal (where appropriate) and will receive an alignment shift of some kind (similarly scaled by alignment of the victim) for stealing, and that it's not simply a license to freely steal (or else) without any repercussions at all?
The blog unfortunately didn't mention how one moves their alignment towards Good... some examples of that would be nice.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I feel much better having read this blog. I'm a bit interested that the Stand and Deliver mechanic blocks reputation loss for bandits. I agree it should limit it, at a bare minimum halve it, but at the end of the day you did steal items from another person with the threat of violence. I want banditry to be a viable gameplay mechanic, but I have a hard time seeing theft as something that doesn't move your alignment and reputation all over the place.
I'll have to go back and read but doesn't flagging yourself as an outlaw open you up to attack as well? If not I entirely agree. Banditry is great and I'm fine with it having lesser consequences than RPKing but it should open you up to attack by enforcers at no rep/alignment loss. Otherwise every road will be crawling with bandits that the law enforcement can't deal with.
Another thing I would like to see is a mechanic available to people of any alignment that forces outlaws to repay the costs of all goods/items stolen in the last X hours to their victims if you catch and defeat them without killing them, or a similar mechanic. Some way to return people's goods to them without an alignment hit.
Edit: It appears that outlaws can still get the criminal flag, so a career bandit would end up labeled as a brigand whether they are an outlaw or not.
All of the PVP flags, Bandit as well as Traveller, open you up to unprovoked attacks without attached alignment and reputation changes. As listed, Bandit Flag only removes REPUTATION hits for attacking targets (who don't accept your Stand And Deliver ransom), there would still be Chaotic and Evil and (potentially) Criminal repurcussions... You would just have a good Reputation. It didn't really say, but it's reasonable to think that Stand And Deliver itself would have equally Chaotic repurcussions as Attacking somebody unprovoked (to rob them), Evil repurcussions aren't clear... Especially if there is a non-Evil 'incapacitating' combat option that a CG Robber could aim for.
@Andius: It would make sense for there to be no Alignment/Reputation repurcussions for looting a Bandit, or at least there should be a no-repurcussion option that 'splits' the loot between you ('finders fee') and the victims (which the game could automatically track, not realistic, but good gamist design). Actually, that latter option should INCREASE your Reputation, as well as be a Good act... ESPECIALLY if it's actually a choice (whether to take all the loot from the Bandit, or 'split it' with the victims). If you're Evil, you don't care about restitution for the victims, you just vindictively screw over the low-life Bandit, and self-righteously take the loot for yourself.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am not clear why people are so upset about heinous.
You raise undead and get flagged for a few minutes while they are out collecting goods for you. Nobody sees.
How does that render necromancy nonviable?
True it prevents you flaunting your cool necromantic skills in public without getting smacked by the self-righteous side... but so what, do you really expect get away with raising undead while a Paladin is watching ? Just do what is probably normal for a necromancer and do all that evil dark necro stuff in private.
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I'm not so sure either.
The short duration doesn't apply when you walk around with your Undead skeleton minions of course,
but that falls within 'flaunting your vileness'.
Ultimately, they aren't being prevented from doing their schtick.
Anybody can attack anybody anyways.
The only difference is that Good people can attack you without Good/Evil changes (Evil people are already Evil, no change there),
and Lawful people can attack you without Law/Chaos changes (Chaotic people are already Chaotic, no change there),
and there isn't a Reputation hit for attacking you (low Rep characters already have low Rep, no change there).
And of course there is always the matter of them actually DEFEATING you (and your Undead minions),
if you (and your Undead minions) end up killing them, then you just get to loot their bodies...
(and HEY, new bodies to re-animate!)
As I wrote before, I'm pretty sure that individual settlements can still make it a crime to attack/kill Heinous characters.
(I presume there will be a default option for laws to treat Heinous characters differently, but they don't need to)
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@Andius: It would make sense for there to be no Alignment/Reputation repurcussions for looting a Bandit, or at least there should be a no-repurcussion option that 'splits' the loot between you ('finders fee') and the victims (which the game could automatically track, not realistic, but good gamist design). Actually, that latter option should INCREASE your Reputation, as well as be a Good act... ESPECIALLY if it's actually a choice (whether to take all the loot from the Bandit, or 'split it' with the victims). If you're Evil, you don't care about restitution for the victims, you just vindictively screw over the low-life Bandit, and self-righteously take the loot for yourself.
If they do a split I would like the option to choose how much I get (Up to a certain amount obviously.) Usually I wouldn't want to charge anything though there are a few people I would max the fee for.
sure, and it would make sense to scale the amount of good/reputational credit based on how generous of a split you choose.
ultimately, this is just loot, so i don't think it should shift alignment or reputation TOO much, but some different ratios of the split seems reasonable...
as suggested in the blog, there can also be limits on how much a certain activity can shift your alignment/reputation, either a max shift in a given day/time period, or a max shift PERIOD no matter the time period.
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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I notice the effects of assassination (in addition to a plain death) are targeted at influencing the outcome of larger battles.
Note that this isn't the whole assassination system, just the start of it. There will almost certainly be progression and more options for assassins beyond just anyone Evil flying the flag.
To combat the concern about bandits abusing S.A.D. by asking for too much loot
We're debating internally some more details for this, as formalizing Stand and Deliver as an actual mechanic is brand new this week. You're staring at something prototyped straight out of the design workshop here :) .
But do note that even if we didn't put any limits on it, a guy hitting you up for "One MEEEEELION Gold Pieces!" still might leave you in a better off state than if he'd blindsided you from total surprise. Sure, if it's that imbalanced that he can just kill you in either case, it sucks that he loses no Rep for exploiting the intent of the system, but if he does so he's at least giving you a chance to play for time and call in friends or plan your escape route.
We'll almost certainly have some limits on it, though.
Also regarding S.A.D., to combat the "conga line", perhaps, like the "killed" flag, there could be a "protected" or "fleeced" flag for traders that pay their toll.
Almost certainly the case. If you've paid already, within that window other bandits won't get to hit you up again. If the first guy asked for too little, they can go take it up with the guy undercutting them.
Speaking of the "killed" flag, I don't think I get it. I agree with Imbicatus that it should increase penalty, not decrease bonus, as I understand it. Can someone explain why it is the way it has been laid out so that I understand the reasoning?
It's meant to make it harder for people to form death pacts and farm each others' alts for the bonus. If we also increased the penalty, we'd have the opposite problem: people would let their friends' alts kill them a bunch before they went into the wilderness so anyone that killed them would take double penalties.
Will issuing a Stand and Deliver give the outlaw the attacker flag? If not people are just going to spam everyone they meet. If denied they just move on to the next person without attacking.
If someone demands my money or my life I should be able to beat them down without consequences.
It will probably only be available while you're running Outlaw (or maybe also if you already have Criminal), so you're automatically already fair game.
To maintain a Chaotic alignment, the character must also be a criminal?
The positive drift is in there to provide a way for people to recover over time if they want to be Lawful and/or Good. It'll probably be really slow, but still useful for those who are filled with regret at their choices and want to be LG again. And there will be an option to say "Nope, I'm happy where I am, thanks, you can keep your points" for people that want to stay Chaotic, Evil, or some shade of Neutral.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Stephen Cheney - Thank you very much for some more detail. I am sure that more things will come up but I am glad that the S.A.D. is something that is still brewing. I think the direction you guys are going seems to be pretty damn good with it. I really like the S.A.D mech and want it to work almost as much as our "good" bandit Bluddwolf :P
Being able to lock yourself to a max alignment is nice not only for druidy types but merchants that didn't want to take a side in the wars that will happen.
I am still worried about the "Assassin" flag if it can be used in a war situation. I feel it's more powerful than the options good players have. Are these flags going to effect war targets or be active if you are in a war?
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@ Stephen Cheney
"Nope, I'm happy where I am, thanks, you can keep your points" for people that want to stay Chaotic, Evil, or some shade of Neutral.
I like this. Im guessing you would be able to refuse positive alignment shifts, but not negative. So if you want to stay neutral you could refuse positive points, but youd still have to behave yourself to avoid negative points.