This may not be a rules question exactly, but I'm confused about why it's such a high level spell. Effectively it's a long duration summon of a few CR3 flying mounts. By the time you can use it its obsolete. Its higher level than teleport and less effective. Sure they can theoretically fight, but CR3 vs CR 11-ish isn't much of a fight. As much as I love the flavor why is this so special? Did I miss an Errata somewhere?
Thanks.
School: conjuration (summoning) [good]
Level: druid 6, summoner 6
Casting Time: 1 round
Components: V, S, DF
Range: long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Effect: summoned eagles
Duration: 1 hour/level
Saving Throw: none
Spell Resistance: no
You summon a flight of giant eagles (one per three caster levels, maximum of six; Bestiary 118) to ferry you and your allies across the skies. The eagles avoid combat if possible but defend themselves if attacked; if the eagles attack, the remaining duration of the spell changes from 1 hour per level to 1 round per level (so if the spell had 5 full hours left, the eagles remain in combat for 5 rounds before the spell ends).
We've used them to carry things for us long distances.
It's probably just a reference to LotR.
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It's only one level higher than Overland Flight and allows you to transport multiple people (or any gear you need to carry.)
It also lets you go to places you've never been before (unlike teleport) and can ferry you to several different locations, along with allowing you to carry heavy objects.
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We've used them to carry things for us long distances.
It's probably just a reference to LotR.
Right. It's a travel spell that's less useful than teleport, but somehow higher level. I just don't understand the logic.
It's only one level higher than Overland Flight and allows you to transport multiple people (or any gear you need to carry.)
It also lets you go to places you've never been before (unlike teleport) and can ferry you to several different locations, along with allowing you to carry heavy objects.
The teleport familiarity thing isn't that difficult to work around with scrying or even a detailed description. The two spells definitely have different functionality, but Eagle Aerie should be 5th level max IMHO.
It's a travel spell that's less useful than teleport, but somehow higher level.
You don't always have a clear idea of the location and layout of the destination. Maybe the fabled Tower of Akun'shasa is somewhere in the forbidden mountains, but you've never been there. Or maybe you have been there, but it got taken over by giants, so appearing in the middle of what used to be the mage's sanctum (but is now rubble hundreds of feet below) isn't the best idea. Or maybe you just want to ride around on some giant eagles for a while.
Also, summoning a flock of giant eagles is awesome. And the awesome spells are generally higher level.
Also, summoning a flock of giant eagles is awesome.
QFT, +1, "this," and right on.
I agree with basically everything said above, but wouldn't that'll that make it on par with teleport, but with a different mechanic?
Just for perspective wind walk is a 6th level spell that's far superior to EA with a similmilar functionality.
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I agree with basically everything said above, but wouldn't that'll that make it on par with teleport, but with a different mechanic?
Just for perspective wind walk is a 6th level spell that's far superior to EA with a similmilar functionality.
I consider windwalk to be different, not superior.
You can't split up a windwalk group the way you can with this spell. You also don't have a combat option if it's needed the way you do with this spell.
1) you can split up after wind walk is cast.
2) if you get into combat and someone hits your cr3 mount you will have to find another way to fly anyhow. So it's combat options are very limited. Also they get into combat you've got about 11 rounds to come up with plan B.I don't see how that justifies a spell level bump.
I'd call 60MPH with no fatigue far superior to 80' flight speed if an animal.
Please don't misunderstand. I think the spell is really cool. I just think that by the time you can use it there are several far better options. I'm just not getting why it's such a high level spell.
Wind Walk and Teleport don't let you transport heavy objects.
Wind Walk and Teleport don't let you transport heavy objects.
By the time you're 11th level someone has a bag of holding or portable hole or access to shrink item.
I'm not seeing "lifting big things" as significant justification.
Edit: also if the object falls within max load of the creature(s) you're teleporting they can be teleported. Ant haul makes this easier. Plus I think creature can't fly with anything above a medium load, but I'd have to double check to be sure.
Please don't misunderstand. I think the spell is really cool. I just think that by the time you can use it there are several far better options. I'm just not getting why it's such a high level spell.Again, if you're a Druid, you don'tdo the Teleport thing. If you're an Eagle Shaman, that would be the spell you dream about casting. And again, this spell makes a far better and more impressive entrance than Wind Walk.
I know that Druids don't teleport. I'm comparing across spell lists as a mediation measure.
Of course the simple fact that its a Druid spell might simply be the justification. Perhaps Druid spells simply aren't designed to facilitate group travel. Hence the level of this and wind walk. Perhaps that's the reason.
Wind Walk and Teleport don't let you transport heavy objects.By the time you're 11th level someone has a bag of holding or portable hole or access to shrink item.
I'm not seeing "lifting big things" as significant justification.
Shrink Item doesn't work on magic items, Bags of Holding can't fit objects whose cross-section is wider than 1 foot x 1 foot, and Portable Holes cost 20,000 gp.
When I said "carry things for us" I actually meant "air lift the last remaining population of naturally immune-to-magic humans away from a magically active volcano that made up one of the walls of the canyon they settled, all while a large army moved on to slaughter them due to trumped up allegations the BBEG made regarding said population."
But "carry things for us" was a much shorter way of saying it.
Shrink Item doesn't work on magic items, Bags of Holding can't fit objects whose cross-section is wider than 1 foot x 1 foot, and Portable Holes cost 20,000 gp.Wind Walk and Teleport don't let you transport heavy objects.By the time you're 11th level someone has a bag of holding or portable hole or access to shrink item.
I'm not seeing "lifting big things" as significant justification.
See edit.
"Edit: also if the object falls within max load of the creature(s) you're teleporting they can be teleported. Ant haul makes this easier. Plus I think creature can't fly with anything above a medium load, but I'd have to double check to be sure. "
Cheapy also makes a good point - Eagle Aerie can shuttle hundreds of people.
Need to airlift the entire populace of a city that's under siege? Teleport and Wind Walk can't help you, Eagle Aerie can.
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Again, if you're a Druid, you don't do the Teleport thing.
Except for Transport via Plants of course (another level 6 druid spell) and, to a lesser extent, Tree Stride.
Plus I think creature can't fly with anything above a medium load, but I'd have to double check to be sure. "
This is only true if they are being ridden. With a rider, they can't fly with a medium load (due to a convoluted chain of rules involving encumbrance counting as barding,) but if they are not carrying a rider they can fly with a heavy load.
I think the big benefit you are overlooking is that you can use the eagles all day long. With teleport, once you go somewhere, the spell is used up. To teleport to a dungeon and back home again, you would need to memorize two spells. With eagle aerie, you can fly somewhere, dismount, go kill some stuff, fly somewhere else, kill more stuff, and still be able to fly home later all on the same one spell.
If you just need to travel to one location in a day, teleport is definitely better. If you need to travel to multiple locations in a day, eagle aerie is better.
Cheapy also makes a good point - Eagle Aerie can shuttle hundreds of people.
Need to airlift the entire populace of a city that's under siege? Teleport and Wind Walk can't help you, Eagle Aerie can.
That's true. It'll be 5-6 at a time, but could be done.
I think the big benefit you are overlooking is that you can use the eagles all day long. With teleport, once you go somewhere, the spell is used up. To teleport to a dungeon and back home again, you would need to memorize two spells. With eagle aerie, you can fly somewhere, dismount, go kill some stuff, fly somewhere else, kill more stuff, and still be able to fly home later all on the same one spell.
If you just need to travel to one location in a day, teleport is definitely better. If you need to travel to multiple locations in a day, eagle aerie is better.
In this instance wind walk is better if its available.
They weren't the largest creatures to save, and we cast the spell as many times as we could.
In this instance wind walk is better if its available.
Eagle Aerie is Druid 6/Summoner 6
Wind Walk is Cleric 6/Druid 7They are very similar in their use and have the same duration. Wind Walk is probably a safer method of travel, however, I'd argue since giant eagles are intelligent animals, a creative caster could get more use out of eagle aerie. Perhaps the eagles could scout while the party is in a dungeon and report back to the party when they come out.
Also, although in most situations you'd be traveling in a party, you could consider a lone druid. If he has no friends to wind walk with, he can only transport what he can carry. If the lone druid uses eagle aerie, he can ride one and still transport whatever else he wants the other eagles to carry.
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I agree with the original posters sentiment. When selecting my spells for my summoner, I saw this and immediately had to read the description- more summons? Yes! About 10 seconds later I was bewildered. I kept re-reading the description and checking the spell level and checking the eagles stats. Disappointment soon followed. I'd rather teleport, or some such but yes, the spell is better if you want to transport many people at once (and over a long duration) and it is decent if you want to explore new areas with a different set of risks or problems than teleportation magics allow. And again, useful for dealing with carrying loads as well but, let's be fair, this is a utility type spell that has dubious utility when you consider the number of low level spells that can emulate various features in it. And sure, Teleport may have some weight limits and Ant Haul requires you to spend more spell slots (even low level ones) but you could also just purchase a caravan, summon various mounts that can air walk/fly, last for hours on end and carry loads of their own (and there are at least two or three different mount spells available that cover any or all of these things, even in a single package and each is a much lower level spell). Sure, they don't fly immediately or for incredibly long durations (I need to check phantom steed again) but you could always cast overland flight on one or expeditious retreat(not sure on the duration) or outfit with horseshoes of speed. Barring an absolute need to fly or save low level spell slots in transporting people/objects, there are just too many other options that do the same thing, and possibly better than summoning a bunch of weak eagles with no powers so you can emulate some utility lower level spells with a really high spell slot.
But Eagle Aerie is really thematic. Part of me still wants to take it- that part of me is not the optimization part.
I agree with the overall consensus so far, that there are specific benefits to the spell, and there are spell list issues where those spell lists aren't meant to be equivalent to sorc/wizard list, for example.
Besides what's mentioned so far, there's other good stuff about it compared to Wind Walk:
Wind Walk can be Dispelled and doesn't have the Feather Fall clause of Fly spells, so difference vs. Eagle Aerie there.
Wind Walk lets you go 60 mph but that's poor maneuverability and if you need better the speed drops to 10'/round.
Giant Eagles have average maneuverability and 80' move speed, so if combat starts they will be more maneuverable.
But really that will rarely be important because in combat Wind Walk has another major problem: you can't do any thing.
While in pseudo-Gaseous Form you have some great defensive buffs, but you can't make physical attacks or cast V/S/M/F/DF spells or use Su abilities... Changing to normal form (where you can't fly) takes 5 rounds. Riding Giant Eagles you are ready to go at all times.
Overall though, since the Giant Eagles aren't really that useful in combat, either offensively or duration-wise, I think it would have been useful to give them a bonus to Saves/AC (+Casting Stat? +Spell Level?) and maybe TempHPs(+Caster Level?), that would cut down on some vulnerabilities and they would still hardly be uber-tough either offensively or defensively.
EDIT: the idea of comparing to teleport, etc, kind of breaks down when you look at multiple trips, etc. saying 'you can just scry', 'you can cast it again' is rather the point, yes you can use those other spells (if you're a wizard, again) but those use multiple spell slots, which is a serious cost trade-off. when you start needing to make more than one trip, the spell slots start racking up.
I agree with the original posters sentiment. When selecting my spells for my summoner, I saw this and immediately had to read the description- more summons? Yes! About 10 seconds later I was bewildered. I kept re-reading the description and checking the spell level and checking the eagles stats. Disappointment soon followed. I'd rather teleport, or some such but yes, the spell is better if you want to transport many people at once (and over a long duration) and it is decent if you want to explore new areas with a different set of risks or problems than teleportation magics allow. And again, useful for dealing with carrying loads as well but, let's be fair, this is a utility type spell that has dubious utility when you consider the number of low level spells that can emulate various features in it. And sure, Teleport may have some weight limits and Ant Haul requires you to spend more spell slots (even low level ones) but you could also just purchase a caravan, summon various mounts that can air walk/fly, last for hours on end and carry loads of their own (and there are at least two or three different mount spells available that cover any or all of these things, even in a single package and each is a much lower level spell). Sure, they don't fly immediately or for incredibly long durations (I need to check phantom steed again) but you could always cast overland flight on one or expeditious retreat(not sure on the duration) or outfit with horseshoes of speed. Barring an absolute need to fly or save low level spell slots in transporting people/objects, there are just too many other options that do the same thing, and possibly better than summoning a bunch of weak eagles with no powers so you can emulate some utility lower level spells with a really high spell slot.
But Eagle Aerie is really thematic. Part of me still wants to take it- that part of me is not the optimization part.
I can justify it to myself by saying it's primarily a druid spell and party transport isn't really their strong point. However, I still stand by the opinion that it should be a 5th level spell or have features added. Maybe Advanced eagles or something.
Also, summoning a flock of giant eagles is awesome. And the awesome spells are generally higher level.
Mad Monkeys begs to differ.
just for comparison, what could you Summon with a SNA6 spell, which lasts rounds/level?
(Eagle Aerie lasts that long if it's used immediately in combat, otherwise out of combat those rounds are extended to hours)
1 Huge Air Elemental, 1d3 Large Air Elementals, or 1d4+1 Giant Wasps (Size Large, same 18 STR as Giant Eagles) or Grifforns (16 STR).
The latter two are really very equivalent to Giant Eagles, Wasps of course being more unique with Mindless and Poison, and Griffons having Pounce and more HPs, but over-all Giant Eagles seems appropriate to be on the same SNA tier as those (also having high INT and Fly-By Attack, so more tactically useful, the INT especially so given duration). So considering that you are getting equivalent creatures but with a much longer duration, it's a pretty decent spell. (the Eagles will only fight back when attacked, unlike SNA, but given the balance of the spell re: duration, that's more than reasonable)
on that basis, I can see why they AREN'T given any further defensive buffing...
just for comparison, what could you Summon with a SNA6 spell, which lasts rounds/level?
(Eagle Aerie lasts that long if it's used immediately in combat, otherwise out of combat those rounds are extended to hours)
1 Huge Air Elemental, 1d3 Large Air Elementals, or 1d4+1 Giant Wasps (Size Large, same 18 STR as Giant Eagles) or Grifforns (16 STR).
The latter two are really very equivalent to Giant Eagles, Wasps of course being more unique with Mindless and Poison, and Griffons having Pounce and more HPs, but over-all Giant Eagles seems appropriate to be on the same SNA tier as those (also having high INT and Fly-By Attack, so more tactically useful, the INT especially so given duration). So considering that you are getting equivalent creatures but with a much longer duration, it's a pretty decent spell. (the Eagles will only fight back when attacked, unlike SNA, but given the balance of the spell re: duration, that's more than reasonable)
on that basis, I can see why they AREN'T given any further defensive buffing...
If you use the eagles in combat the duration becomes the same as the creatures you're mentioning. The time is only longer when they're used for utility.
( second line in parentheses ;-) )
( second line in parentheses ;-) )
I saw that, but you seem to be comparing their combat prowess with Summon Natures Ally 6.
They're CR 3 creatures with a minimum caster level of 11 needed. They're unlikely to do much in combat at that level, so the combat comparison isn't terribly relevant.
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Yeah, arguing anything about them and applicability in combat doesn't make much sense. Just so we don't hear any more of it:
The lowest level you can cast the spell is 11th.
At 11th level, you get 3 eagles.
The Eagles are CR3, have 15 AC and 26 HP a piece.
The eagles have +7 to hit, have 18 str (for +4 dmg on all attacks) and do 1d8 bite and 1d6 for each claw.
They do come with evasion.
They also won't fight unless attacked. If you want to guarantee they fight in combat, you can use look into some sort of summoner casting compel hostility on himself, then magic jarring into an eagle and forcing an attack on the eagle, then leaving the eagles body so the eagle will be committed to combat.
If this all sounds like something viable at 11th level, I'd honestly, like to play in your games because it seriously sounds fun. But in most games where there are legitimate challenges- this spell has -NO- remote application in combat.
And I admit, I totally exaggerated the situation with the eagles, but that is because I view using them in typical combat (not army vs army combat) to be equally as ludicrous as my example. The stats should explain why. :-D
If you could summon them at level 7, that would be different. As mentioned previously, this spell summons creatures more closely related to what you could get from Summon Natures Ally 4 (at 7th level). Pushing it a single spell level higher is probably within reason. This makes it a 5th level spell available at level 9 where it could really be useful for all the utility you get out of it in a single cast. But get too many levels after that (say level 12-14) and you've got so much more you can do, either with better spells or more lower level options that are now just as good, even if you need them in combinations.
Conclusion: Eagle Aerie + Combat = fail. Eagle Aerie = too high level for what it does...besides being cool.
It's like a taxi to teleport's train.
(Maybe. I've not read the description; I was just trying to be profound.)
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I think it would make a useful L5 spell for druids. As a L6 spell, it's still OK for parties that have a druid and no other caster with travel magic (rare but possible situation), but it's a terrible spell for a summoner to pick. For the summoner it should probably be L5 or even L4.
I suppose the bird-focused druids (or summoning druids) might get a little more usage out of it with augment summoning, but ehhh...
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Um, let's see. Mount is a 1st level spell that summons a light horse that lasts 2 hours per level. Horses move at 50 feet per round, normal movement? Burning several first level spell slots should not be an issue.
Time sensitive? Communal Mount is a 2nd level spell, that produces up to six of these horses., however you do divide the increments between the horses. Extending this spell is fine if we are talking about emergencies. And guess what? It's still cheaper than trying to cast the eagles.
Phantom Steed is an hour per level, comes with a communal version which is 4th level, but the basic spell is 3rd. At 12th level they can all Air Walk for 10 minutes per level (two hours at this point) and this is at the horses 50-60 feet or so base movement speed. And at level 14 the mounts can all fly with no duration. I'm sorry but I don't see the validity of Eagle Aerie unless you like theme or want to do some of this stuff sooner in one spell (and at standard action cast time- since I think the mounts take 10 minutes to summon). It is just a mechanically non-viable spell- but, you may be right that insofar as druids, in particular, are concerned, it may be one of very few options, making it stand out. Sort of like granting a summon monster 4 or 5 spell to a class that otherwise has no utility magic or attack magic and putting the spell in the classes 6th or 7th level slot. The spell is not great for their level and not worth being in that slot for a normal class, but since this one doesn't have any other way to emulate the effects, it becomes viable- especially in niche circumstances, as mentioned by Akalsaris.
Phantom Steed is an hour per level, comes with a communal version which is 4th level, but the basic spell is 3rd. At 12th level they can all Air Walk for 10 minutes per level (two hours at this point) and this is at the horses 50-60 feet or so base movement speed.
An extended Communal Phantom Steed comes close to providing the duration and flexibility that Eagle's Aerie would, but as a 5th level spell that druid's don't have. Also the casting time on Phantom Steed is significant (10 minutes for the regular one). Overall seems pretty equivalent.
Again, we learn of great spells that Druids can't cast...
Nitpick: Phantom Steed's Air Walk isn't equivalent to Flying, that is gained 2 levels later (14th Caster Level). Their Air Walk ability ISN'T for 10 minutes/level it is only for 1 round duration at-will. Even though they can re-use Air Walk every round, they fall to the ground just before their next turn (if they are in the air). It's meant as a precursor to flight to cover small gaps or vertical distances, not as real deal flight.
Um, let's see. Mount is a 1st level spell that summons a light horse that lasts 2 hours per level. Horses move at 50 feet per round, normal movement? Burning several first level spell slots should not be an issue.
Time sensitive? Communal Mount is a 2nd level spell, that produces up to six of these horses., however you do divide the increments between the horses. Extending this spell is fine if we are talking about emergencies. And guess what? It's still cheaper than trying to cast the eagles.
Phantom Steed is an hour per level, comes with a communal version which is 4th level, but the basic spell is 3rd. At 12th level they can all Air Walk for 10 minutes per level (two hours at this point) and this is at the horses 50-60 feet or so base movement speed. And at level 14 the mounts can all fly with no duration. I'm sorry but I don't see the validity of Eagle Aerie unless you like theme or want to do some of this stuff sooner in one spell (and at standard action cast time- since I think the mounts take 10 minutes to summon). It is just a mechanically non-viable spell- but, you may be right that insofar as druids, in particular, are concerned, it may be one of very few options, making it stand out. Sort of like granting a summon monster 4 or 5 spell to a class that otherwise has no utility magic or attack magic and putting the spell in the classes 6th or 7th level slot. The spell is not great for their level and not worth being in that slot for a normal class, but since this one doesn't have any other way to emulate the effects, it becomes viable- especially in niche circumstances, as mentioned by Akalsaris.
Also their movement rate is 100 feet at 10th level. Plus they don't get tired like eagles presumably do.