|
Hi All:
Here's my question: I'm putting a game together with 5-6 players. One of my players is playing a druid (after several concepts that didn't quite meet his idea of fun), who is a fast animal handler/ trainer. His druid who specializes in reptiles has managed to train 3-4 of them, including his animal companion. My concern is this: with 3-4 trained animal companions and his druid, this player will be controlling 5 total characters during game and during combat. How many animal companions can he possibly have and is it wrong for me to nix this idea? I can see this character slowing down combat immensely, plus I'm having a hard time trying to figure out why this character would go adventuring in the first place instead of selling his handling services. Thanks in advance for the responses!
DK
How many animal companions can he possibly have and is it wrong for me to nix this idea?
There's not really a limit (outside of PFS). But keep in mind it's a move action to handle a non-companion animal. So each turn he can order two lizards to do something. Pay attention to which tricks they know, and how many they can know.
Regardless of the rules, if it's slowing things down enough to make things not fun for people at the table (and that includes the GM) he should be made aware of this, and work something out to rectify it.
|
|
Here's his email to me that I haven't answered yet:
These would acquired be using the "Call Animal" spell and then training them, which I am developing in my character's backstory as part of her journeys & development from Lvl 0 to 5.
Hours involved for training an animal are 3 / day (as opposed to 8 hours per day for crafting).
I intend to have Animal Training as part of my character concept, similar to how wizards/others would have Item Crafting --this is what my character spends her "downtime" on, and is probably her non-adventuring profession. Handle Animal is a skill that allows retries, so assuming I had enogh time from levels 0 to 5, I can "take 20" (though I don't need to for most reptiles w/ CR near my level).
Call Animal (Druid 1) lets her summon wild animals with a CR = my Druid level, and they are indifferent instead of hostile. Wartrain Mount (Druid 2) lets me wartrain them for 1 hour / lvl w/ no saving throw, and, I have Charm Animal (Druid 1) and my wild empathy with reptiles / dinosaurs is fast (full round action instead of 1 minute) and at +4 modifier above normal.
So my intention is to have a trio of trained creatures (a CR 3, 4 and 5, reptile / dinosaur of some sort --one acquired at each level) in my menagerie, subservient to my animal companion. There's no actual HD limit or max # of creatures specified in the game, but the Handle Animal skill does provide some context in the "Rearing a Wild Animal" section for a trio of similar creatures (though I've got much better abilities than mundane trainers) --and I don't want to manage more than a handful of extras.
I'm thinking of having 2 of them trained to fight / guard, and one of them a big pack animal trained to carry stuff (for me and/or the group).
Any barding / supplies I used for these creatures I would pay for out of my own wealth, and I intend to replace them during adventuring if / when they perish, using the same methods I acquired them originally.
My character's normal way of handling urban settings would be to leave her animals together (including her animal companion) defending my campsite. With 4 big creatures total, they'd probably be pretty safe.
It is not wrong for you to nix the idea of a one-man army. In my opinion, at least.
Regardless of the rules, if it's slowing things down enough to make things not fun for people at the table (and that includes the GM) he should be made aware of this, and work something out to rectify it.
This.
Talk to him about your concern. He could easily have some nice animal trainer flavour going, without utilizing it in combat.
Apart from that, the creatures he train is probably going to be quite weak apart from the lowest levels. So it might be a legitimate question, whether or not he is willing to throw them into combat knowing they're likely to die.
As a GM, or player for that matter, I'd be much happier with all of his extras having the same stats, just because it would be easier to run.
* Druid
* Animal Companion (Powerful, detailed, lizard)
* Lizard #1 - Something level appropriate with one attack
* Lizard #2 - Mathematically identical to #1, regardless of appearance
* Lizard #3 - Mathematically identical to #1, regardless of appearance
You may also want to show him the Pack Lord archetype.
|
Make sure the burden of that runs on the player. He must supply you with complete statblocks and adhere to the handle animal rules. Make him do the checks in front of you and have everything organized for combat. Having them subservient to the actual companion is something you needs to allow or disallow, as companions are not assumes as Alphas. Also remind him that "Rearing a wild animal" is NOT at take 20 skill, so those rolls need to be in front of you or by you.
Handle Animal
(Cha; Trained Only)
You are trained at working with animals, and can teach them tricks, get them to follow your simple commands, or even domesticate them.
Check: The DC depends on what you are trying to do.
Task Handle Animal DC
Handle an animal 10
“Push” an animal 25
Teach an animal a trick 15 or 20*
Train an animal for a general purpose 15 or 20*
Rear a wild animal 15 + HD of animal
* See the specific trick or purpose below.
Handle an Animal: This task involves commanding an animal to perform a task or trick that it knows. If the animal is wounded or has taken any nonlethal damage or ability score damage, the DC increases by 2. If your check succeeds, the animal performs the task or trick on its next action.
“Push” an Animal: To push an animal means to get it to perform a task or trick that it doesn't know but is physically capable of performing. This category also covers making an animal perform a forced march or forcing it to hustle for more than 1 hour between sleep cycles. If the animal is wounded or has taken any nonlethal damage or ability score damage, the DC increases by 2. If your check succeeds, the animal performs the task or trick on its next action.
Teach an Animal a Trick: You can teach an animal a specific trick with 1 week of work and a successful Handle Animal check against the indicated DC. An animal with an Intelligence score of 1 can learn a maximum of three tricks, while an animal with an Intelligence score of 2 can learn a maximum of six tricks. Possible tricks (and their associated DCs) include, but are not necessarily limited to, the following.
Attack (DC 20): The animal attacks apparent enemies. You may point to a particular creature that you wish the animal to attack, and it will comply if able. Normally, an animal will attack only humanoids, monstrous humanoids, giants, or other animals. Teaching an animal to attack all creatures (including such unnatural creatures as undead and aberrations) counts as two tricks.
Come (DC 15): The animal comes to you, even if it normally would not do so.
Defend (DC 20): The animal defends you (or is ready to defend you if no threat is present), even without any command being given. Alternatively, you can command the animal to defend another specific character.
Down (DC 15): The animal breaks off from combat or otherwise backs down. An animal that doesn't know this trick continues to fight until it must flee (due to injury, a fear effect, or the like) or its opponent is defeated.
Fetch (DC 15): The animal goes and gets something. If you do not point out a specific item, the animal fetches a random object.
Guard (DC 20): The animal stays in place and prevents others from approaching.
Heel (DC 15): The animal follows you closely, even to places where it normally wouldn't go.
Perform (DC 15): The animal performs a variety of simple tricks, such as sitting up, rolling over, roaring or barking, and so on.
Seek (DC 15): The animal moves into an area and looks around for anything that is obviously alive or animate.
Stay (DC 15): The animal stays in place, waiting for you to return. It does not challenge other creatures that come by, though it still defends itself if it needs to.
Track (DC 20): The animal tracks the scent presented to it. (This requires the animal to have the scent ability.)
Work (DC 15): The animal pulls or pushes a medium or heavy load.
Train an Animal for a General Purpose: Rather than teaching an animal individual tricks, you can simply train it for a general purpose. Essentially, an animal's purpose represents a preselected set of known tricks that fit into a common scheme, such as guarding or heavy labor. The animal must meet all the normal prerequisites for all tricks included in the training package. If the package includes more than three tricks, the animal must have an Intelligence score of 2 or higher.
An animal can be trained for only one general purpose, though if the creature is capable of learning additional tricks (above and beyond those included in its general purpose), it may do so. Training an animal for a purpose requires fewer checks than teaching individual tricks does, but no less time.
Combat Training (DC 20): An animal trained to bear a rider into combat knows the tricks attack, come, defend, down, guard, and heel. Training an animal for combat riding takes 6 weeks. You may also “upgrade” an animal trained for riding to one trained for combat by spending 3 weeks and making a successful DC 20 Handle Animal check. The new general purpose and tricks completely replace the animal's previous purpose and any tricks it once knew. Many horses and riding dogs are trained in this way.
Fighting (DC 20): An animal trained to engage in combat knows the tricks attack, down, and stay. Training an animal for fighting takes 3 weeks.
Guarding (DC 20): An animal trained to guard knows the tricks attack, defend, down, and guard. Training an animal for guarding takes 4 weeks.
Heavy Labor (DC 15): An animal trained for heavy labor knows the tricks come and work. Training an animal for heavy labor takes 2 weeks.
Hunting (DC 20): An animal trained for hunting knows the tricks attack, down, fetch, heel, seek, and track. Training an animal for hunting takes 6 weeks.
Performance (DC 15): An animal trained for performance knows the tricks come, fetch, heel, perform, and stay. Training an animal for performance takes 5 weeks.
Riding (DC 15): An animal trained to bear a rider knows the tricks come, heel, and stay. Training an animal for riding takes 3 weeks.
Rear a Wild Animal: To rear an animal means to raise a wild creature from infancy so that it becomes domesticated. A handler can rear as many as three creatures of the same kind at once.
A successfully domesticated animal can be taught tricks at the same time it's being raised, or it can be taught as a domesticated animal later.
Action: Varies. Handling an animal is a move action, while “pushing” an animal is a full-round action. (A druid or ranger can handle an animal companion as a free action or push it as a move action.) For tasks with specific time frames noted above, you must spend half this time (at the rate of 3 hours per day per animal being handled) working toward completion of the task before you attempt the Handle Animal check. If the check fails, your attempt to teach, rear, or train the animal fails and you need not complete the teaching, rearing, or training time. If the check succeeds, you must invest the remainder of the time to complete the teaching, rearing, or training. If the time is interrupted or the task is not followed through to completion, the attempt to teach, rear, or train the animal automatically fails.
Try Again: Yes, except for rearing an animal.
Special: You can use this skill on a creature with an Intelligence score of 1 or 2 that is not an animal, but the DC of any such check increases by 5. Such creatures have the same limit on tricks known as animals do.
A druid or ranger gains a +4 circumstance bonus on Handle Animal checks involving an animal companion.
In addition, a druid's or ranger's animal companion knows one or more bonus tricks, which don't count against the normal limit on tricks known and don't require any training time or Handle Animal checks to teach.
If you have the Animal Affinity feat, you get a bonus on Handle Animal checks (see Feats).
Untrained: If you have no ranks in Handle Animal, you can use a Charisma check to handle and push domestic animals, but you can't teach, rear, or train animals. A druid or ranger with no ranks in Handle Animal can use a Charisma check to handle and push her animal companion, but she can't teach, rear, or train other nondomestic animals.
I briefly played an Animal Speaker bard who used trained dogs in her performances, and also in combat. Honestly, they didn't slow the game down any more than your standard conjurer wizard - in fact, it was a lot more streamlined than that because their sheets were all pretty much the same and easy to memorize.
However, I did wind up parting with them once we hit level 3 or 4 or so (can't recall exactly) as they were becoming more of a liability than anything, being unable to keep up with the higher CR encounters. She arranged to have them cared for at the bardic college where she first studied, and from that time onward she simply summoned them with Summon Nature's Ally. That kept it meaningful without worrying about them dying and keeping track of them all the time, keeping them fed, etc.
Maybe this druid could do something similar: have his little menagerie, then release them into the wild and just summon them when they become more hassle than they're worth.
|
so this is a 5th level Dragon Shaman Druid?
a better option might be allowing him to combine the Dragon Shaman archetype with the Pack Lord archetype. its not normally compatible since they both modify the Nature's Bond, but its a home game from what i gather? so its gm prerogative. He can have a few lizard companions, use free actions to command them. Their CR will advance as he does, he just has to choose how he's splitting them up. And it doesn't take micromanaging to train/replace the companions.
the TLDR of why not to allow him to just use trained animals is below:
call animal lasts hours per level, charm animal lasts hours per level.
these are wild animals and will only function for the duration of the spell. he can't keep a "menagerie" of them. at most he can expend a couple 1st and 2nd level spells to have a wartrained mount lizard on call & charmed so it treats him in a favorable way for 5 hours ( if there are lizards in the area ).
after that it returns to being a hostile wild animal.
he can try to train it, but it would fail. he'd have to rear the wild animals, and raise them from birth to domesticate them. which takes... i don't know how long... to raise a monitor lizard etc. with a DC 18 for a monitor lizard ( CR 2, 3 HD, DC 15 + HD, no retry on "rear wild animal". ), DC 22 for a giant frilled lizard ( CR 5, 7 HD ).
Bestiary options for Lizards to gain the +4 bonus to wild empathy, which just helps to use diplomacy on it to calm it down , not to domesticate or train it, include the Monitor Lizard (CR 2), Giant Frilled Lizard (CR 5), Giant Gecko (CR 1), Giant Chameleon (CR 3).
and combinations that you might allow. [ eg. Advanced Monitor Lizard CR 3, Advanced Giant Monitor Lizard CR 4 etc. ]
IF you let him have reared several lizards at the start of the campaign, it'll still take weeks/months to replace ones that die off in the game.
If he kept them on Guard action, then their actions would be delayed until something attacked him. And he'd have to keep track of tricks known. unlike the animal companion they're limited to 3 / intelligence point, a total of 6 each. if he trains them for a purpose such as Combat Training ( attack, come, defend, down, guard, and heel ), that's all 6 tricks, and since it doesn't have Attack twice, it will not attack unnatural creatures, even if its following the Guard command.
there's big downsides to him doing this: yes his actions in the round will take longer. his animals will also be less well behaved: he won't be able to bring a herd of wild lizards into town, so he'll miss out on things while adventuring as he baby-sits his lizards. they won't have evasion, link or share-spells as an animal companion does. and once they die ( several fireballs later, fried lizard is bound to happen ) he'll be back down to just his animal companion.
He won't be able to take three Large Lizards down into most dungeons. Its hard enough fitting a party of 4 in most dungeon rooms for most combats. What does he do when he's got to get three 800-1200 lb lizards down a mine shaft, out of a pit trap, etc. ?
At 5th level it may seem like he's controlling an army. by 7th level when they've died off a few times and the CR isn't keeping pace with the CR of creatures and opponents they're fighting it won't be as much fun as he expends resources to custom armor ( chain shirt barding for a large-nonhumanoid is x4 the normal cost. to equip three large lizards with chain barding would be 3x 400gp. Since training doesn't grant them extra feats, they'd be taking a -2 on attacks from the armor check penalty due to non-proficiency. large plate mail for a lizard would cost over 4k with a -6 penalty on attacks.
if they advance as animal companions, you can more easily choose which feats your companion has, and can more readily outfit and command your pets.
I had a druid player try this with dogs.
The main problem was limited spacing in rooms when fighting. The other players would complain because there was no room to end a space in because the druid's dogs were everywhere. The other melee characters couldn't get to the BBEG, because all the good melee spaces had dogs in them.
|
|
I had a druid player try this with dogs.
The main problem was limited spacing in rooms when fighting. The other players would complain because there was no room to end a space in because the druid's dogs were everywhere. The other melee characters couldn't get to the BBEG, because all the good melee spaces had dogs in them.
That would work itself out by the BBEG killing them off. It just wastes time though.