RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Or Glitterdust, requiring a handful of gold dust. Really, couldn't you just fling the handful of gold dust for the same effect?Actually, that's the flavor of a lot of spells with material components - the spell is just a really exaggerated version of something you can do physically with those materials. Lightning Bolt I think it is, that has a glass rod and wool? Great substances for making a static charge. Bat Guano? Flammable.
Building on this and the post below it, in a 'home game' I'd have no problem with the pouch being filled with 'McGuffin Items' that work for that particular caster. Kind of like how the Dresdenverse potions work, or how each caster uses a different method of intonation. (Harry's Dog Latin, Elaine's Egyptian, etc.)
That a Abyssa bloodline uses a quill from an fiendish porcupine that just happens to cost the same as the wizard's more traditional dart focus for acid arrow is mechanical hand waving. Personally, I love it when caster players give some thought into how their magic 'works'.
I just assumed that alot of the spell components are grandiose name for mundane equivalant. Like A Dragon Scale is a Lizard Scale or a colorful name for a certain kind of flower. At the same token when one looks at the level of high magic assumed in the system it makes sense.
I enforce the use of a Spell Coponent pouch, I have gotten away from enforcing the use of more expensive ones. I would like too, but currently in my game there are 7 PCs, so it just takes too much time. Also the Wizard and the Sorceress in my game kind of suck at the momment, so I tend not to find them too game breaking.
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So here we are, 8 pages in. Shallowsoul, would you care to tell us how to fix this problem that you insist exists?
The way I see it, we have 2 options:
1) Rewrite a few bits of fluff
2) Price the items that are deemed as "rare", but which currently have no listed price
What are you suggesting be done? Are there options I've missed?
Look, I'm all for you trying to get things that you perceive as errors fixed. But just moaning, wailing, and gnashing your teeth obviously isn't getting anywhere. Constructive criticism is helpful. Petulant mewling is simply attention mongering.
Why list a component if it just does not matter. Why not just list it as "Common Component" and leave it at that.
you can ID spells based on their components with Know(Arcana). dumb man's spellcraft.
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So here we are, 8 pages in. Shallowsoul, would you care to tell us how to fix this problem that you insist exists?
The way I see it, we have 2 options:
1) Rewrite a few bits of fluff
2) Price the items that are deemed as "rare", but which currently have no listed priceWhat are you suggesting be done? Are there options I've missed?
Look, I'm all for you trying to get things that you perceive as errors fixed. But just moaning, wailing, and gnashing your teeth obviously isn't getting anywhere. Constructive criticism is helpful. Petulant mewling is simply attention mongering.
I can tell you haven't read the thread, probably just the first post.
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I can tell the opposite. It's the majority of the thread that you've been "moaning, wailing, and gnashing your teeth", in the OP you were pretty sensible with your question.
I can tell the opposite. It's the majority of the thread that you've been "moaning, wailing, and gnashing your teeth", in the OP you were pretty sensible with your question.
You left out while pages if currency digression and a short poop related pit stop.
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I can tell you haven't read the thread, probably just the first post.So here we are, 8 pages in. Shallowsoul, would you care to tell us how to fix this problem that you insist exists?
The way I see it, we have 2 options:
1) Rewrite a few bits of fluff
2) Price the items that are deemed as "rare", but which currently have no listed priceWhat are you suggesting be done? Are there options I've missed?
Look, I'm all for you trying to get things that you perceive as errors fixed. But just moaning, wailing, and gnashing your teeth obviously isn't getting anywhere. Constructive criticism is helpful. Petulant mewling is simply attention mongering.
Really? 'Cause here is everything you've said (other than the full list of expensive material components and your OP):
Well Eschew only takes care of components up to 1 gp.
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How much life can you get out of one spell component pouch?It does reach an end if you aren't actively looking for more materials to fill it.
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But it doesn't say the pouch lasts forever. You can use a focus over and over again unless it is consumed but not with the other components.
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So am I. If a single purchase of a spell pouch eliminates all components that don't have a listed price then why bother throwing in "black dragon's blood" or "powered quartz" into a spell's material component section.What happens if Black Dragons don't exist in your world etc...?
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I could see hand waving a fighter needing to sharpen his sword on a whetstone but but some of the components that are required are a bit exotic to the point that hand waving would seem a bit odd when actually read what the component is.
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I can see refilling a pouch when the materials are plenty but when you get ones that are a bit out there then it becomes more difficult to imagine the spellcaster finding them on a day to day basis.
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I'm not really here to find a houserule, I'm here to try and piece together something that I believe gets over looked a lot.
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Then they really should just take out spell components except for costly ones. They could use the room in the books for something else to be honest.
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Try actually tracking the spells that require components with a cost.
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Now that is just from the CRB.A bit expensive.
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Yes it's a houserule but please explain to me how you are making life more difficult for arguably the most powerful class in the game.How about fully explain this in detail because it's absurd as hell to be honest?
I mean boo hoo freakin hoo.
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Small price to pay if you want to play a caster.Seems there's a thing going on around here to where people want all the power of a class but they think the drawbacks are unfair.
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I used to have a few people that would load their spell list down with the various Symbol spells. They never ever paid attention to the cost or either they thought I just wouldn't notice.
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I've heard that excuse before.
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Actually, if you do make a spellcaster track his costly components then you will find out that it can get pretty expensive when casting certain spells so he/she will have to choose whether to spend money on certain components or magic gear, scrolls, wands, etc...
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Those things are listed in the book and their prices so yes I do.
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Dragonscales and dragon blood and devil eyes?Just a note on the devil eyes: You won't be getting these that easy because you would have to take them and keep the devil alive or go into hell, kill one and take it's eyes and then come back to the Prime Material Plane.
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I'm not talking about the inexpensive components, which one could arguably say that dragonscales aren't cheap.
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That's not what we are talking about.
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Never said I charged for non costly components.I'm just pointing out how some of the component rules make no sense.
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Oh yeah it really makes sense for a pouch costing you 5gp can contain an almost infinite number of rare and exotic noncostly materials that would be extremely hard to find depending on your campaign and your world.Oh yeah, makes perfect sense.
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Actually Wizards are my favorite class. I was playing an elven magic user since 1985 so I've debunked your little theory there.Some of us like for the rules and fluff to actually makes sense.
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Did SKR actually say a DM is a jerk for stealing a component pouch? So does he think a GM is a jerk if her sunders an item or actually kills a character.I hope he doesn't continue to let his opinion influence the actual rules of the game.
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Encumbrance, ammo, spell component costs are all a part of the rules that people over look or hand wave so much to the point that when someone actually does enforce them they are looked at as an odd ball or just someone trying to punish the players.Not my fault that people feel like they can claim to play by the rules but still handwave things they feel aren't important.
These are forums where discussions about the game takes place, this is what they are for. They are not only for singing the games praises.
Edit: People gripe and complain all the time about spellcasters being all powerful with no weaknesses and yet when you start to point out those weaknesses they gripe and complain that you are punishing the players or being a jerk.
Can't have it both ways I'm afraid.
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Those aren't rules actually, it's advice because they think everyone will get annoyed if every gp is accounted for.Sometimes the devs that write this stuff make no sense. They go to the trouble of listing out the prices for everything and then go on to say that they don't recommend actually doing this.
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You can certainly handle these minor expenditures in detail during play, but tracking every time a PC pays for a room, buys water, or pays a gate tax can swiftly become obnoxious and tiresome. If you're not really into tracking these minor costs of living, you can choose to simply ignore these small payments. A more realistic and easier-to-use method is to have PCs pay a recurring cost of living tax. At the start of every game month, a PC must pay an amount of gold equal to the lifestyle bracket he wishes to live in—if he can't afford his desired bracket, he drops down to the first one he can afford.
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I care about dragonscales, dragon blood, devil eyes etc.. being identified as common components that a one time 5gp spell pouch can take care of.
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I know Infernal Healing requires devil's blood but I'm not sure about the eyes. I thought I read somewhere that a spell needed eyes from a devil.I would say that you have to go out and actually find dragon scales unless you pass through an exotic bazaar. They various shape changing spells actually require you to have a piece of the creature you turn into but it wouldn't make sense to have pieces of exotic creatures that you know the PC's haven't encountered and if you think about it a spell component pouch would have a sample of every creature in the world.
If you are going to actually have spell components then the game should actually adhere to it but if a 5gp pouch is all you need then there is no point in adding them to the spells, just let the player add the flavor if he wants.
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Like I have stated before, it's more about those exotic components that you may not normally come across every day. I don't know about you but dragons in my world are legendary and don't come a dime a dozen. I would personally expect adventurers to have to go and out and either find those components or find one of those bizarre bazaars that carrying exotic and rare components.
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I would actually prefer a list of exotic components and their prices. Going out on quests to find those exotic components are quests all in themselves. You could go on a quest for a merchant who needs some of those exotic components who will in turn give you the components you need and you can sell them to him/her.
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Let's look at Alter Self for a moment. It says you are required to have a piece of whatever creature you are going to mimic. What happens when you haven't come across a drow at 3rd level? How are you walking around with pieces of a drow in a pouch if you live in a small village for instance? How would you know which piece comes from which creature if you have no knowledge about that creature. I mean you walk around with Fetchling skin for instance but you would still need to make a Knowledge check to identify one if the creature was standing in front of you.
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What is flavor when the flavor doesn't make sense in the situation?Devils Blood: Well I know we haven't been anywhere near devils or a bazaar that would actually carry it but somehow you have it anyway.
Besides, the player's can come up with their own flavor just fine.
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Sorry but Harry Potter is not a good comparison unless that is how you run your world.
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Because Harry Potter is a style of fantasy where magic is a day to day thing where you can buy magic wands around every corner. Not everyone runs their games like that so its a poor comparison unless that is how you specifically run your games.
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And I find it ridiculous that you can command the infinite powers of the universe and yet b@&%@ about needing to take the time to gather rare and exotic spell components if your DM sees fit.I also find the spell component rules ridiculous because all non cost are taken care of at 1st level with a 5gp purchase and yet you are assumed to be gatherimg components from things you may not have ever of.
Whar if I said there were no exotic component merchant dealers in a 1000 mile radius nor are there any dragons about to your knowledge?
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If I were planning on doing that then you would know in the beginning.Now some of the more exotic ones have aleady been mentioned such as dragon scales and devil blood, depending where you are, and the pieces of creatures you need for Alter Self and some of the other polymorph types of spells. What if certain races are rare or live extremely far away? By RAW, you can Alter yourself to look like any creature with Alter Self, even without your knowledge, the pc, they even exist.
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Why can't you the player add the flavor?Also, "M" is tied to the mechanics but make no sense flavor wise when dealing with some spells.
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Nobody is talking about how RAW is implemented, we already know. We are talking about how the RAW doesn't fully make sense.
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But according to SKR you are a jerk if you mess with a Wizard's spell component pouch.
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Actually you are supposed to track arrows and any other ammunition. An archer can blow through a quiver of arrows in a heartbeat.Do you charge Gunslingers for their bullets?
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If you can't see the role playing opportunity in actually going out and finding rare and exotic components from creatures you rarely, if ever, come across then I can't help you.The problem is you are used to spells being to easy and too accessible without actually having to work for them. Would you complain if I limited you to just your two spells per level you get?
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And you had a chance of failure every time you were copying a spell to your spellbook.
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Because some of us like Pathfinder and would like to see the things we don't particularly like about it change, or is the only way we can like Pathfinder is to accept all it's flaws and never push for change?
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The problem is you are comparing dragon scales and devils blood to sand and cobwebs. Seriously?
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And there are some who don't like the current rules and that's what this thread is about. Now if you want to start a thread about how great it is then by all means.
So...
You started out with "I bet y'all just don't play by the rules"
The community said "yes, we do, here they are"
Your response? "Those rules are dumb, I don't like them, why did they write them that way"
The community explained the history of the material components. They explained that in the default settings, the items of which you have complained are not world shatteringly difficult to obtain. Along the way, on page two (and another place, but I just don't care enough to find it), you were offered information about existing lists of the costs of such components.
Still, you rant about how everyone should play the way *you* play, and we are all wrong for not preferring your style.
Maybe you missed all of the direct responses to your requests. Maybe you actually mean something other than what I've surmised here, but you are communicating poorly. Perhaps you are unaware that you are communicating poorly.
So let me spell it out for you. Most people *do* play by the rules. Most of us don't care that spell number 153 calls for an unpriced smidgen of unobtainium. RAW, it turns out, also doesn't care that in Shallowsoultopia a smidgen of unobtainium requires an entire quest to procure. If you *do* care, you have been offered resources to fix your problem. If your problem really is that you don't like the peanut butter of the flavor text in the chocolate of your gaming environment, then house rule it, change it, use the old lists from dragon mag or player's options, and move on. If you won't stop until we all discontinue the thoughtcrime of shallowsoul wrongthink, then I suppose the community will have nothing to offer you that will make you happy. C'est les vie.
WoW, lot of coverage here, so I'll just stick to how I've done it over the years, and the Whys, and how we do it nowadays.
1e/2e - We frequently kept track of Spell Components. Want to Cast Spider Climb? That is a Live Spider you need to EAT. So you had to keep live spiders around. That's not an easy task. Dragon Magazine articles (and other publications) would provide lists of what mundane costs for various components were (some others mentioned this as well). Sand was xCP, Grease was ySP.....
3e - With Eschew Materials, we did stop keeping track of it overall. Campaigns I ran, I usually added 2 additional Feats to add to the benefit (which the Wizard could chose with his bonus feats). Even as the "Accountant" in most groups, between that Feat, Spell Component Pouches and other means, its not worth keeping track of for stuff that isn't worth much. Mind you, we also kept track of our 100gp Pearls for Identify though (and other more expensive components).
4e - Got rid of Combat Spell Components, and just Rituals require them (sometimes), and its basically all 1 Component, so its easy book keeping.
PF - Similiar to 3e, only even less want to keep track of those minor costs. But I'm going to say that except for the upper cost items, the casters haven't been keeping a close eye on them. Looking at the character I just brought into the current PF campaign, I don't even have V,S,M listed (bad player!). I'll be correcting that, but we'll see if it matters much to anyone else (I doubt it). We're getting ready to cross a desert, so we're actually keeping track of foodstuffs (which we hadn't prior in the campaign) and we'll see if the DM mentions anything on Material Components.
But overall, I think it comes to a matter of time (the players I'm currently playing with). 20-25 years ago, when several of us were in middleschool/highschool/college, we had the time to worry about those small numbers. These days, we feel its a waste to keep track of every pinch of sand, and either gets rolled into "Cost of Living" or some other hand waving. This applies to arrows and other "mundane" items unless the current adventure line warrants it.
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...I can tell you haven't read the thread, probably just the first post.So here we are, 8 pages in. Shallowsoul, would you care to tell us how to fix this problem that you insist exists?
The way I see it, we have 2 options:
1) Rewrite a few bits of fluff
2) Price the items that are deemed as "rare", but which currently have no listed priceWhat are you suggesting be done? Are there options I've missed?
Look, I'm all for you trying to get things that you perceive as errors fixed. But just moaning, wailing, and gnashing your teeth obviously isn't getting anywhere. Constructive criticism is helpful. Petulant mewling is simply attention mongering.
Really? 'Cause here is everything you've said (other than the full list of expensive material components and your OP):
** spoiler omitted **
And who are these "most" people you speak of?
Do you represent the majority of gamers out there?
PS: Those few that frequent the boards don't count I'm afraid.
And who are these "most" people you speak of?
Do you represent the majority of gamers out there?
PS: Those few that frequent the boards don't count I'm afraid.
So...you want to change the rules because of all the gamers out there who don't follow the rules? I don't really understand what you're getting at here.
Furthermore, why do the "few that frequent the boards" not count? Because you say so? Do you have personal experience with a larger cross-section of gamers than the 100s (1000s?) who post here?
And who are these "most" people you speak of?Do you represent the majority of gamers out there?
PS: Those few that frequent the boards don't count I'm afraid.
And where did you do your extensive research to prove that the few that frequent these boards aren't representative of the majority? I assume you have facts and figures to back up your statement, and all of it signed off on by a reputable polling firm.
and what is the point of endless whine-fest threads if the people who frequent paizo's discussion board are outliers who don't count? shallowsoul frequents paizo's board, so he doesn't count? ok, great, end of thread. fact is, you can't seem to accept people's straight-forward responses to the original post's question, and you've been served with the hard proof contradicting your characterization of your own participation in this thread.
EDIT: wow!, while i wrote this post 4 more people favorited shining fool's post.
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and what is the point of endless whine-fest threads if the people who frequent paizo's discussion board are outliers who don't count? shallowsoul frequents paizo's board, so he doesn't count? ok, great, end of thread. fact is, you can't seem to accept people's straight-forward responses to the original post's question, and you've been served with the hard proof contradicting your characterization of your own participation in this thread.
EDIT: wow!, while i wrote this post 4 more people favorited shining fool's post.
Hold on a moment.
You do understand that the boards are a place that we can express our dislike of certain elements of the game or maybe you were thinking these are the Wizards forums?
Someone having a problem with something isn't whining, I think maybe you are confused in what whining is. Also, I never once claim to represent the "most" or the "majority" like some of you easily do. The boards do not represent the majority of players out there because I'm sure there are a lot of people who do play the game but do not come here. I represent my feeling on the matter and I am entitled to express that on these forums because that is part of what they are here for. If you, or anyone else, has a problem with that then tough. Nobody is forcing anyone of you to come here, even the mods will tell you to skip the thread if you feel that itch coming on. Scratch it someplace else if you feel the need.
Some of us do have a problem with the spell component rules and we will continue to discusss it.
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And who are these "most" people you speak of?
Do you represent the majority of gamers out there?
PS: Those few that frequent the boards don't count I'm afraid.
So...you want to change the rules because of all the gamers out there who don't follow the rules? I don't really understand what you're getting at here.
Furthermore, why do the "few that frequent the boards" not count? Because you say so? Do you have personal experience with a larger cross-section of gamers than the 100s (1000s?) who post here?
Tell you what.
How about you go and look at the numbers of people who posted here who don't have a problem with it and then compare that to the number of people who are registered on these boards. Get back with me when you have compiled the data.
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...I can tell you haven't read the thread, probably just the first post.So here we are, 8 pages in. Shallowsoul, would you care to tell us how to fix this problem that you insist exists?
The way I see it, we have 2 options:
1) Rewrite a few bits of fluff
2) Price the items that are deemed as "rare", but which currently have no listed priceWhat are you suggesting be done? Are there options I've missed?
Look, I'm all for you trying to get things that you perceive as errors fixed. But just moaning, wailing, and gnashing your teeth obviously isn't getting anywhere. Constructive criticism is helpful. Petulant mewling is simply attention mongering.
Really? 'Cause here is everything you've said (other than the full list of expensive material components and your OP):
** spoiler omitted **
Once again, you haven't bothered to actually read the posts or you simply ignore them. I knowthe history of spell components, been playing since the early 80's but since you didn't bother reading then you would know this isn't about the history. This is about enforcing the listed spell cost and about the flaws of the spell component pouch and the assumption that vertain rare and exotic components are common in everyone's game.
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Tell you what.
How about you go and look at the numbers of people who posted here who don't have a problem with it and then compare that to the number of people who are registered on these boards. Get back with me when you have compiled the data.
Not really but if you are going to claim you represent "most" then you better have some data to back you up.
Then house rule the components to be something that is common in your setting. Problem solved.
Unpriced components are there because they're cool, and add a bit of flavor for the low, low price of no page space. End of story.
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And who are these "most" people you speak of?
Do you represent the majority of gamers out there?
PS: Those few that frequent the boards don't count I'm afraid.
So...you want to change the rules because of all the gamers out there who don't follow the rules? I don't really understand what you're getting at here.
Furthermore, why do the "few that frequent the boards" not count? Because you say so? Do you have personal experience with a larger cross-section of gamers than the 100s (1000s?) who post here?
Tell you what.
How about you go and look at the numbers of people who posted here who don't have a problem with it and then compare that to the number of people who are registered on these boards. Get back with me when you have compiled the data.
Or we could go the other route, and look at the number of people who do have a problem with the game's rules and fluff not precisely matching Shallowsoul's personal homebrew setting. Which consists of only you, as far as I can tell.
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Shallowsoul, I'll be honest and somewhat blunt with you: it's a question of attitude.
You post with definitive statements (along the lines of "some material components make no sense to have easily available" in this case) and then dismiss the responses of anyone who disagrees with you.
Speaking for myself, material components are fluff unless they cost, and I enforce possession of a spell component pouch where it serves a purpose, and ignore the minutiae of exactly how specific components were acquired. If you don't, that's fine. But it doesn't make your way better, and nor does it mean that the abstracted rules of the game need to change to suit your preference.
Discuss it all you like, but don't say that the rules need to change when you have no mechanical basis on which to support your argument. And since the game-world logic has been covered ad nauseum in this thread, mechanics are the only reason to change it.
Why list a component if it just does not matter. Why not just list it as "Common Component" and leave it at that.you can ID spells based on their components with Know(Arcana). dumb man's spellcraft.
I wouldn't necessarily call it "dumb man's spellcraft" since you still have to make a DC 20 on an Int based skill.
And as for what it is, you can always say that making the check allows you to realize what symbolic relationship it has with the spell being cast regardless of the component used. Thus would you recognize a fireball regardless of whether bat guano, sulfur, blood from a hellhound, a couple grains of gunpowder or even a drop of alchemically crafted rocket fuel is the reagent for the spell.
Once again, you haven't bothered to actually read the posts or you simply ignore them. I knowthe history of spell components, been playing since the early 80's but since you didn't bother reading then you would know this isn't about the history. This is about enforcing the listed spell cost and about the flaws of the spell component pouch and the assumption that vertain rare and exotic components are common in everyone's game.
I can tell you haven't read the thread, probably just the first post.
Really? 'Cause here is everything you've said (other than the full list of expensive material components and your OP):
** spoiler omitted **
Wait, THE RULE is that you buy a spell component pouch and it contains all the components needed that are not listed with a price. Actually those "rare and exotic" components are common in world of Golarian, the default world for Pathfinder. If your world is different, then everything should be different, and other nonrare and nonexotic components should be substituted in the spell descriptions, not make the spells that use though components near impossible to cast.
Now you (and how many others?) don't like this rule? For that we have another rule.
So, why should Paizo change the rules to fit what you want for your campaign, when you can change your own campaign by the rules that already exist.
Note that you are free to write set of rules to play by, then you can have whatever rules you want.
Then house rule the components to be something that is common in your setting. Problem solved.
Unpriced components are there because they're cool, and add a bit of flavor for the low, low price of no page space. End of story.
Think of the ink, man! MY GOD THE INK! ;)
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Given how often two particular components have been mentioned in this thread, I'd like to point out that every few days, hundreds of imps and pseudodragons get together and beat the snot out of each other in the skies over Korvosa.
How hard do you suppose it is to get dragon's scales or devil's blood under those circumstances?
(In other words, just because you think something should be rare doesn't actually mean it is.)
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Once again, you haven't bothered to actually read the posts or you simply ignore them. I knowthe history of spell components, been playing since the early 80's but since you didn't bother reading then you would know this isn't about the history. This is about enforcing the listed spell cost and about the flaws of the spell component pouch and the assumption that vertain rare and exotic components are common in everyone's game.
Arguing from Authority again?
Well, it's an attempt at arguing from authority, but it falls flat against people who've been playing at least that long (like me).
The game makes assumptions about the rarity of material components. That assumption is: unless a cost is specified, they are commonly available, because any caster with a spell component pouch has them in that pouch.
Now, I played a lot of 2nd Edition, and I know how frustrating it could be to have to scrounge around for material components, because I had a GM who strictly enforced them. When I saw the spell component pouch in 3E, I practically jumped for joy, because it made my bookkeeping as a player almost infinitely easier.
The good thing about tabletop games is that house rules are trivial to implement. If a GM wants to remove the spell component pouch's rule simplification and strictly enforce material components, more power to him. Or he can do it for some components and not others. Fine by me. Or change the specific components for specific spells. What I don't see as necessary is an errata or rule change to a system that a) works fine, b) simplifies the spell rules and c) is trivial to alter if a GM disagrees with it.
When I GMd in 2E, I pretty much ignored material components that don't have a cost. As a GM, the spell component pouch simplified my job because I wouldn't be house ruling a complete removal of a rule from the game, and I wouldn't have to cover in detail how the PCs go about finding every little thing they need to cast spells.
It simultaneously keeps the game closer to the intended rules and simplifies tracking of gear. What's not to like?
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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It simultaneously keeps the game closer to the intended rules and simplifies tracking of gear. What's not to like?
Agree on all points. And I hate people trying to 'argue from authority' especially when there's no way to *prove* said authority.
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Tell you what.
How about you go and look at the numbers of people who posted here who don't have a problem with it and then compare that to the number of people who are registered on these boards. Get back with me when you have compiled the data.
All that would prove is that there a lot of people smarter than me who have learned to stay out of your threads.
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All that would prove is that there a lot of people smarter than me who have learned to stay out of your threads.Tell you what.
How about you go and look at the numbers of people who posted here who don't have a problem with it and then compare that to the number of people who are registered on these boards. Get back with me when you have compiled the data.
So in other words you've got nothing to back up your claim.
Thought so.
All that would prove is that there a lot of people smarter than me who have learned to stay out of your threads.Tell you what.
How about you go and look at the numbers of people who posted here who don't have a problem with it and then compare that to the number of people who are registered on these boards. Get back with me when you have compiled the data.
So in other words you've got nothing to back up your claim.
Thought so.
Shallowsoul, you made the claim that the posters on the board are not representative of the Pathfinder population at large. The burden of proof is on you. I look forward to viewing your evidence.
Please remember that this data will need to come from people who do not post on the forums, as they don't count.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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All that would prove is that there a lot of people smarter than me who have learned to stay out of your threads.Tell you what.
How about you go and look at the numbers of people who posted here who don't have a problem with it and then compare that to the number of people who are registered on these boards. Get back with me when you have compiled the data.
So in other words you've got nothing to back up your claim.
Thought so.
Yeah, the nerve! Next he'll be claiming to be a RPG writer with nothing to back it up!
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Shallowsoul and other posters like him come to these boards not to discuss with their threads. For two things a echo chamber and validation of their op. They may title their thread to want to hear about both sides in a debate. Even write the op to give the illusion that they do. Yet are not interested in anything posts or anyone that do not agree withe them. All they are interested in is a internet equivalnet of "atta boy your 1000% correct" with a path on the back.
I'm all up for debate yet the op is not interested or even to hear from what I have to say what's the point of even posting here. Unless the topic has a clear majority with most posters your not going to get a majority agreeing with you. I don't get posters on forums who insist on starting a thread on a forum and expecting everyone to agree with them. Just because they feel strongly about something. It's like everyone is equal yet I'm ore equal than others on a forum. If one fees like that nothing the more moderate posters here can do. Just don't expect us to bend over backwards to accomdate your initial post or how you feel on a topic as a posters. It's not even about talking about both the good and bad aspects of the game. It's a excuse to man and complain about something else he hates and finds wrong with the game. With RAW being rewritten to fit his and only his vision of the rules. They are other posters who are interested in a ctually debate about the merits and flaws of the system. Shadowsoul is not one of those posters imo.
I'm starting to wonder if we as posters should boycott shadowsouls posts. It's obvious he has no interest in what anyone who disagrees with him has to say. I'm not even sure he realizes or cares he just insulted everyone on the forum. Were important to him if we as a majoirty agree with his topic. Yet if we don't suddenly were not important if we disagree with his post like this one and we don't count. Were not important. We don't speak for everyone. Yet somehow he does. With authority and without backing up his claim to such imagined authority with any concrete proof.
So far a handful of people have agreed with the guy all respectful. Yet the majority in this thread have no. As well as the devs. Oh that's right they don't count at least to shadowsoul anyway. RAW. Why would he let RAW get in the way of how he feels about anything. Hell RAI the same thing. Initally as a poster he actually had some good things to say. Now it's like watching a self hating PF player moan and groan every time. After having read through all the rules to find yet something else he does not like.
Now all of his threads are so predictable. Next week it's going to be a encumberance thread. Where in his games he tracks everything and anything his players (poor guys I feel for them) have to carry. Everything including a copper peace has to weigh 1 pound or more. The developers come along and say that by RAW and how they run games most things have no weight value. Shadowsoul posts that what the devs said does not count since it usually contradicts his position. And like this thread unless it's a validation or echo chamber style thread we will get told our opinions don't count because as usual the majority of posters in the thread don't agree with him. It ends up being less of a debate. Not truly a topic and just a excuse whine and complain about yet another part of the rules.
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Shallowsoul, I'll be honest and somewhat blunt with you: it's a question of attitude.
You post with definitive statements (along the lines of "some material components make no sense to have easily available" in this case) and then dismiss the responses of anyone who disagrees with you.
Speaking for myself, material components are fluff unless they cost, and I enforce possession of a spell component pouch where it serves a purpose, and ignore the minutiae of exactly how specific components were acquired. If you don't, that's fine. But it doesn't make your way better, and nor does it mean that the abstracted rules of the game need to change to suit your preference.
Discuss it all you like, but don't say that the rules need to change when you have no mechanical basis on which to support your argument. And since the game-world logic has been covered ad nauseum in this thread, mechanics are the only reason to change it.
So is that what we are calling "disagreeing" now?
If I disagree with what you say then I am being dismissive?
I feel the current iteration makes no sense and there are others who agree and others who disagree. Just because you hop in and post that ot makes sense to you doesn't end the argument. I disagree with those who feel it does make sense and I have specified why. Some of you just have a problem with people not agreeing with you about everything.
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Shallowsoul and other posters like him come to these boards not to discuss with their threads. For two things a echo chamber and validation of their op. They may title their thread to want to hear about both sides in a debate. Even write the op to give the illusion that they do. Yet are not interested in anything posts or anyone that do not agree withe them. All they are interested in is a internet equivalnet of "atta boy your 1000% correct" with a path on the back.
I'm all up for debate yet the op is not interested or even to hear from what I have to say what's the point of even posting here. Unless the topic has a clear majority with most posters your not going to get a majority agreeing with you. I don't get posters on forums who insist on starting a thread on a forum and expecting everyone to agree with them. Just because they feel strongly about something. It's like everyone is equal yet I'm ore equal than others on a forum. If one fees like that nothing the more moderate posters here can do. Just don't expect us to bend over backwards to accomdate your initial post or how you feel on a topic as a posters. It's not even about talking about both the good and bad aspects of the game. It's a excuse to man and complain about something else he hates and finds wrong with the game. With RAW being rewritten to fit his and only his vision of the rules. They are other posters who are interested in a ctually debate about the merits and flaws of the system. Shadowsoul is not one of those posters imo.
I'm starting to wonder if we as posters should boycott shadowsouls posts. It's obvious he has no interest in what anyone who disagrees with him has to say. I'm not even sure he realizes or cares he just insulted everyone on the forum. Were important to him if we as a majoirty agree with his topic. Yet if we don't suddenly were not important if we disagree with his post like this one and we don't count. Were not important. We don't speak for everyone. Yet somehow he does. With authority and without backing up his...
When did a dev post in this thread?
Also, I never said the people that come here don't count. The main problem is there is a group of you here that think you represent the majority of Pathfinder gamers because you like using the word " most" when speaking about the general populace, like they feel they are an elected official or officials.
I know a lot of players in Europe, particularly in the Republic, Northern Ireland and the UK, as well as the southern United States. I attend conventions and other events and I know a lot people who don't come to these boards because they don't like the general attitude of the place.
If anyone is going to start declaring they speak for the majority then they better be able to back it up.
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You do understand that the boards are a place that we can express our dislike of certain elements of the game or maybe you were thinking these are the Wizards forums?
Nothing wrong with disliking some parts of a rpg you play. The issue here is that almost 90% of your posts are about disliking some aspects of the rules. How about writign a few posts about something you actually like about the game. From someone reading these boards it sure as hell looks like as a person imo you really don't like D&D in general.
Someone having a problem with something isn't whining, I think maybe you are confused in what whining is. Also, I never once claim to represent the "most" or the "majority" like some of you easily do. The boards do not represent the majority of players out there because I'm sure there are a lot of people who do play the game but do not come here. I represent my feeling on the matter and I am entitled to express that on these forums because that is part of what they are here for. If you, or anyone else, has a problem with that then tough. Nobody is forcing anyone of you to come here, even the mods will tell you to skip the thread if you feel that itch coming on. Scratch it someplace else if you feel the need.
It's comes across as whining because a lot of times what you are posting about is not really a issue or broken. By RAW, the developers and most of the people on these boards. If you start a thread where the title is "power attack is broken" and 30% of posters agree and 70% don't then common sense tells me that most people have no problems with the feat. While your entitled to post. Your absolutely not entitled to demand that posters agree with your thread, your posts or your posting style. Even then i as a poster you would be more reasonable you would get less flak,. Except on one hand you say your open and want to discuss topics of all kinds. That you don't speak for everyone. Yet the way you post says exactly that. While ignoring anyone else including the developers who say your wrong. Because you think that spell components are expensive and that they should be tracked does not in any way shape or form mean that to be true. By RAW and the devs they are not. And you know what we don;t have to post in your thread true. Yet neither do you have to come and pollute these forums with the same topic over and over again. Just rewritten differently.
Some of us do have a problem with the spell component rules and we will continue to discusss it.
It's not just spell components. I think you have a problem with anything and everything that give a player any advantage and by RAW you can't control. The Dm who if he can't control anything or everything with a iron fist at the table finds those elements broken.
To be blunt as posters we are not here to give you a echo chamber or validation whenever you post something. Go start your own forum and/or blog where you can be a mod and block and ban everyone who disagree with you. Were not going to bend over to accmdate Shadowsoul on any level.
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Shallowsoul, I'll be honest and somewhat blunt with you: it's a question of attitude.
You post with definitive statements (along the lines of "some material components make no sense to have easily available" in this case) and then dismiss the responses of anyone who disagrees with you.
Speaking for myself, material components are fluff unless they cost, and I enforce possession of a spell component pouch where it serves a purpose, and ignore the minutiae of exactly how specific components were acquired. If you don't, that's fine. But it doesn't make your way better, and nor does it mean that the abstracted rules of the game need to change to suit your preference.
Discuss it all you like, but don't say that the rules need to change when you have no mechanical basis on which to support your argument. And since the game-world logic has been covered ad nauseum in this thread, mechanics are the only reason to change it.
So is that what we are calling "disagreeing" now?
If I disagree with what you say then I am being dismissive?
I feel the current iteration makes no sense and there are others who agree and others who disagree. Just because you hop in and post that ot makes sense to you doesn't end the argument. I disagree with those who feel it does make sense and I have specified why. Some of you just have a problem with people not agreeing with you about everything.
Not really sure why I'm still trying...
I believe that the rules are fine the way they are. Especially since I can change them any time I like, thanks to the wonder of house rules.
You are lobbying for a change to the rules that the developers clearly don't see the need for (since they could have done so during Alpha testing of the game system). You are therefore lobbying from a position of weakness (that weakness being that the people who write the game rules do not agree with you, and you have no power to change their minds).
Your particular form of lobbying is abrasive to some posters (just look at the number of people who are disagreeing here - very few are saying "bad rule", more are saying "what's wrong with the way it is?"). I have not seen one single example that supports your cause from a mechanical or even roleplaying perspective that cannot be solved by house rules.
Which means that your particular gripe is that your house rules are not the official rules of the game.
That comes across as arrogant, since it suggests that you know better than the developers what makes this game good.
Further, every person that comes in here and says "I like the way it works now, it's easy and let's me get on with plot, rather than faffing about getting my hands on components" is dismissed by you as being "unrealistic". I don't roleplay for realism. I roleplay for adventure and character interaction. Anything that gets in the way of that process for the core abilities of a class I enjoy playing reduces my enjoyment of the game. I suspect that the developers recognise that fact, since they implemented a rule to remove that obstacle while still maintaining a requirement for the class, even if it's a trivial one.
You come across to me with the attitude of "if you don't agree with me, get out of my thread... Oh, and I want rule changes, so anyone who wants to discuss rule changes should post here... Although if you disagree with me, get out of my thread".
That is not conducive to calm and balanced discussion.
Now, this is just my opinion, and you can take from it what you wish, but it is how one person (and, I guess, anyone that favourites this post) sees your behaviour. I will leave you with these little words of wisdom from my mother, though:
If one man calls you an ass, take no notice. If three men call you an ass, buy a saddle.
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Also, I never said the people that come here don't count. The main problem is there is a group of you here that think you represent the majority of Pathfinder gamers because you like using the word " most" when speaking about the general populace, like they feel they are an elected official or officials.
Really and when you post this:
[QUOTE="shallowsoul"
PS: Those few that frequent the boards don't count I'm afraid."
The above pretty much tells it all. Unless your going to tell us that it was a mistake and/or you were misquoted.
If we agree with your posts were your best friends and love us as posters. When we dare to disagree and contradict were strangers and are opinions don't matter. I have seen guys like you all over forums and outside of forums. They like you me and others when we agree with them. When we don't they dislike us and want to have nothing to do with us.
I know a lot of players in Europe, particularly in the Republic, Northern Ireland and the UK, as well as the southern United States. I attend conventions and other events and I know a lot people who don't come to these boards because they don't like the general attitude of the place.
Of course you would know players from everywhere. And by sheer coincidence they all feel the same way do the same topics I'm sure. If they are too afraid to come here because people will disagree with them. Their loss. I'm not going to lose any sleep if a certain segment of the gaming population is interesting in posting echo chamber validation style threads.
Here the thing that people on the internet and outside forget. If a person or poster you feel strongly about something does mot mean that a person or poster will feel the same way. We are in the are of age of entitlement where it;s reached the point that we are supposed to agree with someone not because of any real debate on a issue. It's because they feel entitled and demand the response they want to hear or receive. That is not a real debate on any level. It's demanding validation and forutnately most people like myself and others are not going to oblige or bend over backwards to give it to them. Don't beleieve me go by a book on debating and get back to me.
If anyone is going to start declaring they speak for the majority then they better be able to back it up.
Here the thing though. The way you post comes across as being the only definite opinion that matters. With anything or anyone saying differently as being wrong. I'm not sure if you realize that is the case. it comes across as very much "my opinion and only my opinion on the topic at hand counts. Even if the RAW or the devs say otherwise it means nothing. So lets drop the whole "I can't understand why I'm being treated this way. I'm innocent. I did nohing wrong" because quite frankly your doing yourself a disservice.
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Agrred and seconded with Chemlak last post.
Anyone notice how all of sudden we are the bad guys in this thread. It's can't possibly be because of Shadowsoul abrasive style or his overall " "if you don't agree with me, get out of my thread" message. Now he is trying to play the innocent victim. With respect a posters come on the message boards engages in abrasive behavior in nearly every post. Then wonders why posters are taking issue wth that really. It's come to that.
I think it's better to just discuss different methods of spell components rather than argue with one of the co-writers of FATAL. :-)
Please... Tell me you're kidding.
If not...
/thread
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Also not everyone is convinced that the component rules are "flavor text". They are mechanically grounded rules. That the M is handwaived but the S is not is part of the reason for the thread.Actually, everyone handwaves the S components :)
Aside, this is a kludge that always annoyed me.
I can cast with a weapon/rod/wand in hand because it's assumed my other hand is free.
I can't cast with *just* holding a heavy shield, even if my other hand is free, without facing ASF.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I think it's better to just discuss different methods of spell components rather than argue with one of the co-writers of FATAL. :-)Please... Tell me you're kidding.
If not...
/thread
Well... I'm deducing. What other game can you think of that a 'co-writer' wouldn't want people to know who he is?
It's true that every forum has a community with some particular general opinions, and that one is not an exception. I personally agree with a large amount of them (like the underpowered rogue) but disagree with some of them (wizard is powerful, but on my personal experience not nearly overpowered).
But that does not mean that my personal experience is more meaningful that other. My play style is really different from ShallowSoul, but both are equally acceptable if there is fun at each table. ShallowSoul, on the other way, seems to think that everyone who doesn't agree with him is wrong. That is nothing new, but telling that the forum "does not represent the Pathfinder community" is incredibly offensive. Of course is not the One True Community, but is a representative sample of it, and as such deserves some respect.
Being harsh accomplish nothing to defend one position, and only devalues your position. If ShallowSoul wants some respect, first have to earn it; now the abrasive nature of his posts are withdrawing that respect.
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And who are these "most" people you speak of?
Do you represent the majority of gamers out there?
PS: Those few that frequent the boards don't count I'm afraid.
Actually, yes, TSF does represent the majority. We all had a meeting.... We sent you an e-vite, but I guess e-vites don't exist in your world.
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It's true that every forum has a community with some particular general opinions, and that one is not an exception. I personally agree with a large amount of them (like the underpowered rogue) but disagree with some of them (wizard is powerful, but on my personal experience not nearly overpowered).
But that does not mean that my personal experience is more meaningful that other. My play style is really different from ShallowSoul, but both are equally acceptable if there is fun at each table. ShallowSoul, on the other way, seems to think that everyone who doesn't agree with him is wrong. That is nothing new, but telling that the forum "does not represent the Pathfinder community" is incredibly offensive. Of course is not the One True Community, but is a representative sample of it, and as such deserves some respect.
Being harsh accomplish nothing to defend one position, and only devalues your position. If ShallowSoul wants some respect, first have to earn it; now the abrasive nature of his posts are withdrawing that respect.
You should back read again.
A few posters have claimed that the majority of Pathfinder players find the spell components fine. Now you really need to read carefully because you are taking offense to something that wasn't even said. I said the majority of the posters on the Pathfinder site do not represent the majority of all players of the game because there are a lot of people who play the game but do not come here. Now if you want to go even further, the majority of posters on this thread do not represent the majority of gamers.
Ever heard the saying " the minority wins the election"? That comes from 500 people actually showing up to vote out of a population of 4 million.
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I fully agree with Shallowsoul in that the messageboard denizens are in no way representative of the whole Pathfinder community.
But then again, I don't keep starting threads asking for their opinions eithers.
Well you shouldn't stay away from making a thread just because a few trouble makers like to come in and start trouble by baiting.