As a GM I generally tell players when their SC-pouch is running low (usually after a long adventure, or a couple of shorter quests), and they go get a new one at ye olde magice shoppe.
But I actually think it wouldn't be such a bad idea to assign a number of uses to the pouch, just like ammunition, or the uses in a healer's kit. If the uses are spent, all component using spells have 25% failure chance, and once they failed, the player can't cast them unless he can either retrieve the component elsewhere or refills his pouch.
That way you would have a fairly realistic but still intuitive way to track your minor material components that doesn't require the player to track every single material component in the game.
If it's for a regular old spell > go to the olde magic shoppe!
If it's important > it's side quest time :D
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As a GM I generally tell players when their SC-pouch is running low (usually after a long adventure, or a couple of shorter quests), and they go get a new one at ye olde magice shoppe.
But I actually think it wouldn't be such a bad idea to assign a number of uses to the pouch, just like ammunition, or the uses in a healer's kit. If the uses are spent, all component using spells have 25% failure chance, and once they failed, the player can't cast them unless he can either retrieve the component elsewhere or refills his pouch.
That way you would have a fairly realistic but still intuitive way to track your minor material components that doesn't require the player to track every single material component in the game.
A lot of people have made mention of asking their players to buy new spell component pouches...
The thing costs 5 gp. This expenditure is irrelevant by level 3 if not level 2.
As a GM I generally tell players when their SC-pouch is running low (usually after a long adventure, or a couple of shorter quests), and they go get a new one at ye olde magice shoppe.
But I actually think it wouldn't be such a bad idea to assign a number of uses to the pouch, just like ammunition, or the uses in a healer's kit. If the uses are spent, all component using spells have 25% failure chance, and once they failed, the player can't cast them unless he can either retrieve the component elsewhere or refills his pouch.
That way you would have a fairly realistic but still intuitive way to track your minor material components that doesn't require the player to track every single material component in the game.A lot of people have made mention of asking their players to buy new spell component pouches...
The thing costs 5 gp. This expenditure is irrelevant by level 3 if not level 2.
So is refilling your quiver of arrows, unless you only use magical ones.
It's a roleplaying matter, not balance.
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Another issue I see with enforcing spell components is that the DM also has to give players the opprtunity to buy the more common items and go adventuring for the less common to rare components. If the Cleric and the Wizard in the group are missing at least half of the components the party is not going to continue on the standard quest the DM wrote up. That gets put on hold until at the very least the Cleric is full up on the components he needs to cast all of his spells. So that adventure the DM spent two weeks writing up is not going to happen until the necessary compnents are found. So that means a change in focus. More likely sidequests to get the missing components. That's the thing DM forgot who make players track everything. Adventuring groups imo want to go on a adventure fully loaded up. Who wants to take a wizard along who can't even cast the majority of his spells. Or a cleric who can't raise dead.
Another issue I see with enforcing spell components is that the DM also has to give players the opprtunity to buy the more common items and go adventuring for the less common to rare components. If the Cleric and the Wizard in the group are missing at least half of the components the party is not going to continue on the standard quest the DM wrote up. That gets put on hold until at the very least the Cleric is full up on the components he needs to cast all of his spells. So that adventure the DM spent two weeks writing up is not going to happen until the necessary compnents are found. So that means a change in focus. More likely sidequests to get the missing components. That's the thing DM forgot who make players track everything. Adventuring groups imo want to go on a adventure fully loaded up. Who wants to take a wizard along who can't even cast the majority of his spells. Or a cleric who can't raise dead.
This is the sort of thing I'm thinking about when looking at this thread.
There's a lot of attention being paid to something that's not really all that fun to fuss over.
When it comes to components, and the games at my place, all that's worrisome is what components they are, and if material, a potential GP value, and nothing else.
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If I have to fight a Dragon or Lich myself and my gaming group are not going to do so without being stocked up on components. Espcially if a monster is in its lair. With respect I and the rest of my gaming group are not going to commit sucide or run the risk of losing any pc due to a lack of components. Even if we have a time limit. That imo requires a whole new way to run the game. If say before the tracking of components players who behave in a certain manner when they wnt adventuring it will change once the tracking of components begins. Players are going to take less risks and play differently. Which means imo the DM needs to tailor adventures to include the tracking of components.
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Yeah, this is cool if the GM is looking for ways to motivate the characters to do something. It sucks if there are other things he and the players are more interested in than side quests to get grub for spell components. Then it gets handwaved and we're back where we started.
It can work if both the DM and party like that sort of thing. In my experience it usually gets handwaved. I was in a 2E game where the DM tracked components. We had to find the ingredients for a potion to feed to a comatose body of a demon lord( don't remember which one) to endure he never woke up from his coma. WE found it tedious yet worked with the DM because he was a good dm and ran good games. The problem eventually was that the DM did not like running side quests for components. It was the look on his face when we told him that the party was looking for items for the position as well as components four ourselves. It's not like a eye stalk of a beholder and the wings of a peryton can be bought at any olde wizard shop. So tracking stuff can sometimes backfire imo.
My GM tried to be Shallowsoul today when our Magus tried to cast Infernal Healing while he was at low HP.
Thank god I talked him down.
Though he did make a good point, the same point others have made I believe: Why even have inexpensive components if they don't matter?
Though I agree for different reasons (He thought they should probably be enforced, I think maybe inexpensive components should be done away with if they don't matter), I can see that argument definitely.
Shallowsouling: Making the game harder on your players than it need be :)
As others have mentioned, you are assumed to have the components of anything that doesn't cite a cost. That's the RAW of it, and I wouldn't want to make it any harder on the players than need be. If one wants to dive into the minutia to explain away the why's and hows of why they have the components they do, then they can reserve that right.
I just find it ridiculous to punish players for something that by RAW they don't need to track.
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My GM tried to be Shallowsoul today when our Magus tried to cast Infernal Healing while he was at low HP.
Thank god I talked him down.
Though he did make a good point, the same point others have made I believe: Why even have inexpensive components if they don't matter?
Though I agree for different reasons (He thought they should probably be enforced, I think maybe inexpensive components should be done away with if they don't matter), I can see that argument definitely.
Shallowsouling: Making the game harder on your players than it need be :)
As others have mentioned, you are assumed to have the components of anything that doesn't cite a cost. That's the RAW of it, and I wouldn't want to make it any harder on the players than need be. If one wants to dive into the minutia to explain away the why's and hows of why they have the components they do, then they can reserve that right.
I just find it ridiculous to punish players for something that by RAW they don't need to track.
And I find it ridiculous that you can command the infinite powers of the universe and yet b!*%! about needing to take the time to gather rare and exotic spell components if your DM sees fit.
I also find the spell component rules ridiculous because all non cost are taken care of at 1st level with a 5gp purchase and yet you are assumed to be gatherimg components from things you may not have ever of.
Whar if I said there were no exotic component merchant dealers in a 1000 mile radius nor are there any dragons about to your knowledge?
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Also not everyone is convinced that the component rules are "flavor text". They are mechanically grounded rules. That the M is handwaived but the S is not is part of the reason for the thread.There's two parts to this though. One is the M component. The other is the actual material in question.
The M component is certainly part of the rules, and personally, I don't see it handwaved, nor would I run it that way. This has specific rules that govern how it is used (i.e. you need a spell component pouch, or Eschew Materials).
The actual material however is only relevant if it has an associated cost. For anything else, you're good if you've got the pouch. Put simply, the material that you're actually using, whether it be dragon scales or bat guano, really is just flavor text.
If you ignore what the actual component is, then there's no functional difference between S and M.
I think shallowsoul has asked a valid question.
Why list a component if it just does not matter. Why not just list it as "Common Component" and leave it at that. Then have the component pouch have X number of uses before it needs to be refilled. And because it is listed as a commen item, it could be stuff like dog hair or salt or such and does not create the very issues shallowsoul has pointed out. By trying to force a set "flavor" text item, they do create problems if the GM wants to track the use etc.
I think if I were to play in a game that meticulously tracked spell components I'd consider eschew materials and/or False Focus to be all but mandatory to enjoy the character. Possibly even worth a Sor dip.
And I find it ridiculous that you can command the infinite powers of the universe and yet b@%&$ about needing to take the time to gather rare and exotic spell components if your DM sees fit.
I also find the spell component rules ridiculous because all non cost are taken care of at 1st level with a 5gp purchase and yet you are assumed to be gatherimg components from things you may not have ever of.
Whar if I said there were no exotic component merchant dealers in a 1000 mile radius nor are there any dragons about to your knowledge?
Who's to say that that one spell component pouch doesn't have as many uses of a given spell in it to cover the entire career of the wizard? Why are you assuming that a wizard would ever need to "replenish" his pouch of any negligible cost component.
Assume you have all you need as long as you have your spell component pouch.
I understand that you want to house-rule the pouch to make the game harder on your players and possibly a bit more "realistic". But in RAW, that 5g pouch has every non-cost component the wizard could ever need.. ever.
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And I find it ridiculous that you can command the infinite powers of the universe and yet b!@@$ about needing to take the time to gather rare and exotic spell components if your DM sees fit.I also find the spell component rules ridiculous because all non cost are taken care of at 1st level with a 5gp purchase and yet you are assumed to be gatherimg components from things you may not have ever of.
Whar if I said there were no exotic component merchant dealers in a 1000 mile radius nor are there any dragons about to your knowledge?
Then I'll ask you to specify exactly which components are "exotic" and assume that you're banning the corresponding spells.
And I'll probably b@~#@ about that. I'll certainly b$%~% about it if you spring it on me in combat or anytime after I've chosen my spells.
If I were planning on doing that then you would know in the beginning.
Now some of the more exotic ones have aleady been mentioned such as dragon scales and devil blood, depending where you are, and the pieces of creatures you need for Alter Self and some of the other polymorph types of spells. What if certain races are rare or live extremely far away? By RAW, you can Alter yourself to look like any creature with Alter Self, even without your knowledge, the pc, they even exist.
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I think shallowsoul has asked a valid question.
Why list a component if it just does not matter. Why not just list it as "Common Component" and leave it at that. Then have the component pouch have X number of uses before it needs to be refilled. And because it is listed as a commen item, it could be stuff like dog hair or salt or such and does not create the very issues shallowsoul has pointed out. By trying to force a set "flavor" text item, they do create problems if the GM wants to track the use etc.
Because it's flavor. Flavor is fun. Why have any of the flavor text on spells or other abilities. Just list the stats: Save, descriptors, damage/effect. Lose the cool names too, they don't matter.
More seriously, partly it's holdover from earlier versions and there's always the occasional fun when you don't have your pouch and have to try to improvise.
Why can't you the player add the flavor?
Also, "M" is tied to the mechanics but make no sense flavor wise when dealing with some spells.
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And I find it ridiculous that you can command the infinite powers of the universe and yet b@%&$ about needing to take the time to gather rare and exotic spell components if your DM sees fit.
I also find the spell component rules ridiculous because all non cost are taken care of at 1st level with a 5gp purchase and yet you are assumed to be gatherimg components from things you may not have ever of.
Whar if I said there were no exotic component merchant dealers in a 1000 mile radius nor are there any dragons about to your knowledge?
Who's to say that that one spell component pouch doesn't have as many uses of a given spell in it to cover the entire career of the wizard? Why are you assuming that a wizard would ever need to "replenish" his pouch of any negligible cost component.
Assume you have all you need as long as you have your spell component pouch.I understand that you want to house-rule the pouch to make the game harder on your players and possibly a bit more "realistic". But in RAW, that 5g pouch has every non-cost component the wizard could ever need.. ever.
Nobody is talking about how RAW is implemented, we already know. We are talking about how the RAW doesn't fully make sense.
Nobody is talking about how RAW is implemented, we already know. We are talking about how the RAW doesn't fully make sense.
I think you mean that the "Fluff" doesn't make sense not the "Rule". And I suppose I could agree to that if looking at it from the perspective that eventually you will run out of that component.
However, there is nothing saying how many of each component is inside the pouch at purchase. And, it would be silly to expect and infinite number of a component to be in the pouch. If it's easier to think of some arbitrary number of components inside the pouch and to enforce those restrictions, It is the purview of the GM to do so. But, please be aware that many players will find that level of detail to be tedious and burdensome.
What you would essentially do with this house-rule is enforce a feat tax on all wizards of Eschew Materials.
Unless it is a specific cost like a pearl then I am assume that the wizard/caster has it.
The wizard needs balancing.
Making it slightly less convenient to use like two of the thousand spells on their spell list is going to have a negligible effect toward that goal.
The wizard needs balancing.
Making it slightly less convenient to use like two of the thousand spells on their spell list is going to have a negligible effect toward that goal.
Thought about it some more, and nothing is stopping the wizard from buying multiple spell pouches. The wizard could just go ahead and buy himself 100 maybe even 200 spell pouches for 500/1000gp. And then never have to worry about another component again.
The only time this house-rule becomes "Balancing" is in the first couple of levels at a time when the wizard is far from overpowered in the first place.
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Many of us who played the older editions of the game have been less than comfortable with the Magic Big Box Store that the game has devolved into. Gygax called it the "Monty Haul" campaign and it was something that was frequently avoided by long term groups but really popular with the newbies and the munchkins
I'm quite happy to see Gygax's line of offensive thinking going the way of the dodo. Demeaning other groups' play styles as a means of feeling superior to others? That's nothing short of bullying!
Nobody is talking about how RAW is implemented, we already know. We are talking about how the RAW doesn't fully make sense.And I find it ridiculous that you can command the infinite powers of the universe and yet b@%&$ about needing to take the time to gather rare and exotic spell components if your DM sees fit.
I also find the spell component rules ridiculous because all non cost are taken care of at 1st level with a 5gp purchase and yet you are assumed to be gatherimg components from things you may not have ever of.
Whar if I said there were no exotic component merchant dealers in a 1000 mile radius nor are there any dragons about to your knowledge?
Who's to say that that one spell component pouch doesn't have as many uses of a given spell in it to cover the entire career of the wizard? Why are you assuming that a wizard would ever need to "replenish" his pouch of any negligible cost component.
Assume you have all you need as long as you have your spell component pouch.I understand that you want to house-rule the pouch to make the game harder on your players and possibly a bit more "realistic". But in RAW, that 5g pouch has every non-cost component the wizard could ever need.. ever.
Sorry if it breaks some sense of immersion for you, but this is a game. As a game, it makes many (and many more) abstractions to simulate something that models a fantasy adventuring life.
In short, it's the rule of cool: if it's fun, have at it. If it's not fun, do whatever you can to de-emphasize it or get rid of it entirely. What you propose seems to get in the way of the "game" part of this.
As a GM I generally tell players when their SC-pouch is running low (usually after a long adventure, or a couple of shorter quests), and they go get a new one at ye olde magice shoppe.
But I actually think it wouldn't be such a bad idea to assign a number of uses to the pouch, just like ammunition, or the uses in a healer's kit. If the uses are spent, all component using spells have 25% failure chance, and once they failed, the player can't cast them unless he can either retrieve the component elsewhere or refills his pouch.
That way you would have a fairly realistic but still intuitive way to track your minor material components that doesn't require the player to track every single material component in the game.A lot of people have made mention of asking their players to buy new spell component pouches...
The thing costs 5 gp. This expenditure is irrelevant by level 3 if not level 2.
So is refilling your quiver of arrows, unless you only use magical ones.
It's a roleplaying matter, not balance.
The same logic can be applied to taking a crap, as others have mentioned.
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If you ignore what the actual component is, then there's no functional difference between S and M.
I'd disagree. In most situations, it's not going to matter, but in most situations there's also no difference between S and V, or V/M, or even S/V/M, either.
.S = Can't be cast while bound/restricted.
V = Can't be cast while silenced/gagged.
M = Can't be cast without spell component pouch (or with no way to access pouch).
They definitely have different restrictions on the spells you cast. But it really doesn't matter what you're actually pulling out of the spell component pouch, only that you can do so.
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If you ignore what the actual component is, then there's no functional difference between S and M.I'd disagree. In most situations, it's not going to matter, but in most situations there's also no difference between S and V, or V/M, or even S/V/M, either.
.S = Can't be cast while bound/restricted.
V = Can't be cast while silenced/gagged.
M = Can't be cast without spell component pouch (or with no way to access pouch).They definitely have different restrictions on the spells you cast. But it really doesn't matter what you're actually pulling out of the spell component pouch, only that you can do so.
But according to SKR you are a jerk if you mess with a Wizard's spell component pouch.
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The same logic can be applied to taking a crap, as others have mentioned.As a GM I generally tell players when their SC-pouch is running low (usually after a long adventure, or a couple of shorter quests), and they go get a new one at ye olde magice shoppe.
But I actually think it wouldn't be such a bad idea to assign a number of uses to the pouch, just like ammunition, or the uses in a healer's kit. If the uses are spent, all component using spells have 25% failure chance, and once they failed, the player can't cast them unless he can either retrieve the component elsewhere or refills his pouch.
That way you would have a fairly realistic but still intuitive way to track your minor material components that doesn't require the player to track every single material component in the game.A lot of people have made mention of asking their players to buy new spell component pouches...
The thing costs 5 gp. This expenditure is irrelevant by level 3 if not level 2.
So is refilling your quiver of arrows, unless you only use magical ones.
It's a roleplaying matter, not balance.
Actually you are supposed to track arrows and any other ammunition. An archer can blow through a quiver of arrows in a heartbeat.
Do you charge Gunslingers for their bullets?
The same logic can be applied to taking a crap, as others have mentioned.As a GM I generally tell players when their SC-pouch is running low (usually after a long adventure, or a couple of shorter quests), and they go get a new one at ye olde magice shoppe.
But I actually think it wouldn't be such a bad idea to assign a number of uses to the pouch, just like ammunition, or the uses in a healer's kit. If the uses are spent, all component using spells have 25% failure chance, and once they failed, the player can't cast them unless he can either retrieve the component elsewhere or refills his pouch.
That way you would have a fairly realistic but still intuitive way to track your minor material components that doesn't require the player to track every single material component in the game.A lot of people have made mention of asking their players to buy new spell component pouches...
The thing costs 5 gp. This expenditure is irrelevant by level 3 if not level 2.
So is refilling your quiver of arrows, unless you only use magical ones.
It's a roleplaying matter, not balance.
Actually you are supposed to track arrows and any other ammunition. An archer can blow through a quiver of arrows in a heartbeat.
Do you charge Gunslingers for their bullets?
I never said you shouldn't track bullets, arrows, bolts, darts, or sling bullets. These end up including lots of magical ammunition at mid level and are a significant expenditure (especially bullets/cartridges).
I just don't see how charging a wizard 5 gp (less than half the cost of scribing a 1st level spell) once in a while enhances roleplaying in any way. If you run the whole thing as a shopping trip, then that is just a waste of game time. There are much better things to RP for flavor.
Edit: Especially, since, you know, by RAW you don't need to refill a spell component pouch.
But according to SKR you are a jerk if you mess with a Wizard's spell component pouch.
Well, it's not necessarily nice to mess with a wizard's spell component pouch, but it's also not nice to steal their spellbook, take the fighter's weapon, tie them both up, or do a lot of other things. Doesn't mean it won't ever happen though.
Regardless, I'd personally think a GM is more of a jerk if they're making me hunt for every strange ingredient that powers my spells than I would if they just sundered my spell component pouch every once in awhile. Maybe just my personal opinion on that, but the former sounds a lot more tedious, especially when the rules say that all those materials should be easily available.
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Looking at it logically, the number of uses for a spell component pouch should be about 5, since it cost 5 gp and each component is a bit less than 1gp in worth. So a new rule for Pathfinder 2e should be that the pouch is completely expended after 5 spells with unpriced M components.
Do I expect this rule to actually happen? It would actually put some vague form of minor hinderance on spellcasters, almost universally considered the most powerful characters in the game. So....probably not.
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The same logic can be applied to taking a crap, as others have mentioned.As a GM I generally tell players when their SC-pouch is running low (usually after a long adventure, or a couple of shorter quests), and they go get a new one at ye olde magice shoppe.
But I actually think it wouldn't be such a bad idea to assign a number of uses to the pouch, just like ammunition, or the uses in a healer's kit. If the uses are spent, all component using spells have 25% failure chance, and once they failed, the player can't cast them unless he can either retrieve the component elsewhere or refills his pouch.
That way you would have a fairly realistic but still intuitive way to track your minor material components that doesn't require the player to track every single material component in the game.A lot of people have made mention of asking their players to buy new spell component pouches...
The thing costs 5 gp. This expenditure is irrelevant by level 3 if not level 2.
So is refilling your quiver of arrows, unless you only use magical ones.
It's a roleplaying matter, not balance.
Actually you are supposed to track arrows and any other ammunition. An archer can blow through a quiver of arrows in a heartbeat.
Do you charge Gunslingers for their bullets?
I never said you shouldn't track bullets, arrows, bolts, darts, or sling bullets. These end up including lots of magical ammunition at mid level and are a significant expenditure (especially bullets/cartridges).
I just don't see how charging a wizard 5 gp (less than half the cost of scribing a 1st level spell) once in a while enhances roleplaying in any way. If you run the whole thing as a shopping trip, then that is just a waste of game time. There are much better things to RP for flavor.
Edit: Especially, since, you know, by RAW you don't need to refill a spell component pouch.
If you can't see the role playing opportunity in actually going out and finding rare and exotic components from creatures you rarely, if ever, come across then I can't help you.
The problem is you are used to spells being to easy and too accessible without actually having to work for them. Would you complain if I limited you to just your two spells per level you get?
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...The same logic can be applied to taking a crap, as others have mentioned.As a GM I generally tell players when their SC-pouch is running low (usually after a long adventure, or a couple of shorter quests), and they go get a new one at ye olde magice shoppe.
But I actually think it wouldn't be such a bad idea to assign a number of uses to the pouch, just like ammunition, or the uses in a healer's kit. If the uses are spent, all component using spells have 25% failure chance, and once they failed, the player can't cast them unless he can either retrieve the component elsewhere or refills his pouch.
That way you would have a fairly realistic but still intuitive way to track your minor material components that doesn't require the player to track every single material component in the game.A lot of people have made mention of asking their players to buy new spell component pouches...
The thing costs 5 gp. This expenditure is irrelevant by level 3 if not level 2.
So is refilling your quiver of arrows, unless you only use magical ones.
It's a roleplaying matter, not balance.
Actually you are supposed to track arrows and any other ammunition. An archer can blow through a quiver of arrows in a heartbeat.
Do you charge Gunslingers for their bullets?
I never said you shouldn't track bullets, arrows, bolts, darts, or sling bullets. These end up including lots of magical ammunition at mid level and are a significant expenditure (especially bullets/cartridges).
I just don't see how charging a wizard 5 gp (less than half the cost of scribing a 1st level spell) once in a while enhances roleplaying in any way. If you run the whole thing as a shopping trip, then that is just a waste of game time. There are much better things to RP for flavor.
Edit: Especially, since, you know, by RAW you don't need to refill
You aren't playing by RAW. So... how am I supposed to talk to you? Demon eyeballs are not rare, they are contained in a 5 gp pouch you can buy in a thorp.
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The problem is you are used to spells being to easy and too accessible without actually having to work for them. Would you complain if I limited you to just your two spells per level you get?
Hell, that alone is pretty generous. Back in the day you puzzled together a single spell of each new spell level you could cast. Beyond that, you had to go find another wizard's spellbooks, some wizard scrolls, or do spell research.
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The problem is you are used to spells being to easy and too accessible without actually having to work for them. Would you complain if I limited you to just your two spells per level you get?Hell, that alone is pretty generous. Back in the day you puzzled together a single spell of each new spell level you could cast. Beyond that, you had to go find another wizard's spellbooks, some wizard scrolls, or do spell research.
And you had a chance of failure every time you were copying a spell to your spellbook.
How come you guys don't just play those games since you seem to miss them so much?
And you had a chance of failure every time you were copying a spell to your spellbook.The problem is you are used to spells being to easy and too accessible without actually having to work for them. Would you complain if I limited you to just your two spells per level you get?Hell, that alone is pretty generous. Back in the day you puzzled together a single spell of each new spell level you could cast. Beyond that, you had to go find another wizard's spellbooks, some wizard scrolls, or do spell research.