I like divination specialist for the sort of characters HRE is talking about -- clairvoyance is a nice scouting spell (iirc, since it's an intelligence check to notice instead of perception), and foresight can be really useful as a 'second chance' on key skill checks.
This is particularly true if you have no one else who can cast them. The more skullduggery going on in a campaign, the nicer divinations become. Whether you focus on it or not, NEVER have it as a prohibited school. You da spy!
Yeah, we normally save other games (such as cyberpunk and shadowrun) for our skullduggery set ups but if you are into that for pathfinder then the arcane trickster's worth skyrockets quickly.
For a party set up I like having an alchemist with a scouting arcane trickster -- having time to set up helps both of them immensely.
Yeah, we normally save other games (such as cyberpunk and shadowrun) for our skullduggery set ups but if you are into that for pathfinder then the arcane trickster's worth skyrockets quickly.
For a party set up I like having an alchemist with a scouting arcane trickster -- having time to set up helps both of them immensely.
That reminds me of a 3.5 game I played that went way high level (homebrew Red Steel). I played a sorcerer, and once he could cast 8th level spells, he took Mind Blank. There was a cabal of uber-liches looking for us, so the first thing he did every day was to burn all his 8th slots just so they couldn't scry our party. Before that, we were getting ambushed with the undead scry-and-fry fairly often. We killed the mooks, but the big bads always got away, laughing at us.
PF tweaked that spell, but if you have a group of epic liches spying on you, it's still a great spell.
That's not divination, but that's what he was blocking. He used scrolls for divination spells, but there was no spying on those guys. In the early levels, divinations didn't matter much. At 16th, they were happening all the time, and we weren't the ones using them.
I think I have a good option.
Take a magician soundstriker Bard for seven levels. Make the race an Aasimar and take the bard favoured class bonus in the weird words performance. After that take three levels of ninja and then go into AT.
You will have a ranged touch attack that does (D8+CHA+sneak whenever applicable)*10. Works on seperate targets in the same round as well.
Now that I think about it.... that is brutal.
That's the real answer. I wrote a guide because I really like the class, but it's just a guide for people who maybe aren't sure where to start.
I think you're selling it a little short. I happened to think your guide was brilliant, Expert, and I immediately applied for several PbPs with an arcane trickster and was promptly accepted into none of them. You really went into what the Trickster's role was and how to fill it, and my question with the trickster was never "which archetypes should I stack?" but "how in god's name do I make this work?".
And to the OP... first off, wow. That is a lot of gear. (and that isn't a bad thing.) Though have you considered an arcane bond rather than a familiar? It would net you craft (ring) or (wondrous item (for amulets) for free and extra spells. I've always found the spring attack line very feat intensive for little payoff, but I can definately see its utility here. Mobility always feels wasted, though.
Veering back toward the topic though, is there anything in particular you wanted to fine tune?
That's the real answer. I wrote a guide because I really like the class, but it's just a guide for people who maybe aren't sure where to start.I think you're selling it a little short. I happened to think your guide was brilliant, Expert, and I immediately applied for several PbPs with an arcane trickster and was promptly accepted into none of them. You really went into what the Trickster's role was and how to fill it, and my question with the trickster was never "which archetypes should I stack?" but "how in god's name do I make this work?".
Thanks for the kind words. This discussion inspired me to go back and add some images to the guide.
I've expanded it a lot since May, clarifying points and adding info, so if you haven't taken a look at it for a while, you may find it a little more fun to read.
No comment on the sound striker? I thought it would be a pretty good blaster concept...
I've found that taking a single level of assassin can get you into Arcane Trickster one level earlier.
Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Assassin 1/Arcane trickster 10, then take the rest in wizard. That way magical knack gives you full caster level.
No comment on the sound striker? I thought it would be a pretty good blaster concept...
"The most effective tricksters are wizards, followed by sorcerers. Bard tricksters really are a waste of time. Just play a sneaky archetype bard and be done with it. Combining bard with rogue in the trickster class doesn't do much of anything for either side of that combination, except reduce your hit points, BAB, and cancel your progression in the unique talents of both classes. What good targeted blast spells does a bard get? He could take the Arcane Blast feat at 10th caster level, but it’s pathetic, even with sneak damage.
Think about it: A 20th level character with the sneak attack of a 13th level rogue, a BAB of 12, one rogue talent, a few minor bardic abilities and the earth-shaking spellcasting of a 17th level bard. What, if anything, is he good at?
A 20th level sor/wiz trickster laughs at him, and not because he’s funny, then turns him to dust out of pity. If you want to play an AT in some sort of intrigue campaign, the sorcerer AT gets all the class skills a bard does, and will be more effective overall. Just because a bard can be a trickster, that doesn't mean he should.
I’m not knocking bards. PF bards are great, and they shouldn’t bother with this PrC."
--Me. You won't just be weak in the early levels, you'll be weak your whole career.
Wizard ATs will be casting time stop and greater teleport, and empowered disintegrate for 294 average damage. There's no comparison.
I've found that taking a single level of assassin can get you into Arcane Trickster one level earlier.
Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Assassin 1/Arcane trickster 10, then take the rest in wizard. That way magical knack gives you full caster level.
We have a house rule that if you take a level in a prestige class you can't take another prestige class until you max that one out. It makes them more prestigious.
We have a house rule that if you take a level in a prestige class you can't take another prestige class until you max that one out. It makes them more prestigious.I've found that taking a single level of assassin can get you into Arcane Trickster one level earlier.
Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Assassin 1/Arcane trickster 10, then take the rest in wizard. That way magical knack gives you full caster level.
Then there's that little thing about being utterly evil. Not kosher for a lot of characters.
I think being able to attack touch armour ten times and cause sneak damage on each is pretty cool... maybe I havent thought it through.
1D8+charisma modifier+ sneak atack damage.... times ten.... against touch.
It would only be an extra 7D6 sneak, but I think its a good trade.
I think being able to attack touch armour ten times and cause sneak damage on each is pretty cool... maybe I havent thought it through.
I have.
1D8+charisma modifier+ sneak atack damage.... times ten.... against touch.
It would only be an extra 7D6 sneak, but I think its a good trade.
Chill touch is better, and it's a 1st level spell. Not that I recommend that tricksters should bother with touch attacks very often. That's the problem TCG is having. His trick is wearing thin.
Not trying to be mean here, but bards just don't have the spells to really do much sneak damage, even soundstrikers. Their spell list just doesn't pack the offensive punch of a "real" arcanist. Weak sauce.
BTW, Beyonce doesn't do much for me musically, but she has a spectacular @$$. Superbowl Halftime! An exercise in overpriced frivolity. God bless America! LOL
Fiery Shuriken is one I mentioned in my guide for a similar ability.
However my point of disagreement with HRE is I think the arcane trickster should look for tools to improve his touch attack damage and secondary effects.
I like the ninja's pressure point ability for this reason and elemental touch.
It's one thing to bring some damage to the field, it's another to do a bit less damage but also shut down the enemy with ability damage and negative conditions.
My problem with the sound striker is the fact it eats DR which doesn't help its case and it's up in the air if a GM will allow you to multi-hit a single character which is where the add up would really help.
I am totally lost here, how is 1D6 cold damage with a chance at 1 strength damage as good as getting 10 seperate sneak attacks in a round? Am I missing something?
Also, a Magician Soundstriker with lingering performance can use dweomercraft to grant two caster levels for the purposes of caster level checks, and magical knack will eliminate the last level, so your still full casting. You also get to cherry pick some spells from any arcane list at level 2, 7, 12, and 17.
Maybe if you could point me towards the spell that makes the bards dozens and dozens of blasting rounds per day weak sauce so I can understand better where your coming from(then add it to the magicians list and call it a day)?
Edit: Another thing, dweomercraft adds its bonus to spell based attacks, so soundstrike gets a better chance to hit.
Then there's that little thing about being utterly evil. Not kosher for a lot of characters.We have a house rule that if you take a level in a prestige class you can't take another prestige class until you max that one out. It makes them more prestigious.I've found that taking a single level of assassin can get you into Arcane Trickster one level earlier.
Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Assassin 1/Arcane trickster 10, then take the rest in wizard. That way magical knack gives you full caster level.
The adverb isn't really necessary. Committing murder is evil. The only thing that is "utterly" evil are fiends, who are literally made of the stuff.
In any case, is there any reason you couldn't make the character with a level of assassin and simply say it's an ex-assassin who has long since changed their ways?
Sound strike is NOT a spell based attack, supernatural abilities are not spells.
Also you can't stack more than one performance at a time. You use dweomercraft and then you start soundstriker and dweomercraft goes down, you can't use both at once.
hmm, yeah the only issue with fiery shuriken is that it doesn't add an ability modifier and it has the most commonly resisted damage type.
As far as attacking one target, there have been several threads regarding it, and innumerable faq requests, so I think it can be safely taken at face value.
huh... Okay, then use a spell to maintain it if thats how you read lingering performance.
proof of above claim:
Changing a bardic performance from one effect to another requires the bard to stop the previous performance and start a new one as a standard action. A bardic performance cannot be disrupted, but it ends immediately if the bard is killed, paralyzed, stunned, knocked unconscious, or otherwise prevented from taking a free action to maintain it each round. A bard cannot have more than one bardic performance in effect at one time.
A sound striker gains the following type of bardic performance. Neither performance can be performed more quickly than a standard action.
Wordstrike (Su): At 3rd level, the sound striker bard can spend 1 round of bardic performance as a standard action to direct a burst of sonically charged words at a creature or object. This performance deals 1d4 points of damage plus the bard’s level to an object, or half this damage to a living creature.This performance replaces inspire competence.
A magician gains the following types of bardic performance:
Dweomercraft (Su): A magician can use performance to manipulate magical energies. Allies of the magician gain a +1 bonus on caster level checks, concentration checks, and attack rolls with spells and spell-like abilities. This bonus increases by +1 at 5th level and every six levels thereafter. This ability relies on visual and audible components.This ability replaces inspire courage.
As you can see one performance at a time period and they are both performances.
I am totally lost here, how is 1D6 cold damage with a chance at 1 strength damage as good as getting 10 seperate sneak attacks in a round? Am I missing something?
Also, a Magician Soundstriker with lingering performance can use dweomercraft to grant two caster levels for the purposes of caster level checks, and magical knack will eliminate the last level, so your still full casting. You also get to cherry pick some spells from any arcane list at level 2, 7, 12, and 17.
Maybe if you could point me towards the spell that makes the bards dozens and dozens of blasting rounds per day weak sauce so I can understand better where your coming from(then add it to the magicians list and call it a day)?
Edit: Another thing, dweomercraft adds its bonus to spell based attacks, so soundstrike gets a better chance to hit.
Take a look at CR20 monsters.
No, CR 15. What's it going to do, really?
hmm, yeah the only issue with fiery shuriken is that it doesn't add an ability modifier and it has the most commonly resisted damage type.
As far as attacking one target, there have been several threads regarding it, and innumerable faq requests, so I think it can be safely taken at face value.
Yeah same could have been said of flurry of blows and we saw how that snafu went.
fair enough. How do you determine the save DC for the sound strike?
Some other things to consider with the soundstriker:
It's going to take you at minimum to level 9 just to get into arcane trickster, which isn't much fun. Now granted you're still a level 6 bard and it stacks well with ninja... but if you go for ki you might as well go full on to ninja 3 which means level 10 to get into arcane trickster.
Also you lose skill points going into arcane trickster, on top of the fact that the abilities don't match as well as they do for other classes.
This isn't to say it can't work, or that it's horrible (it isn't) just that generally it's slow to build, allows DR, and is limited in its might of delivery (which is also ambiguous)... all in all good reasons to treat it with care that simply isn't needed for other arcane tricksters.
fair enough. How do you determine the save DC for the sound strike?
DC's tend to default to 10+ 1/2 class level + primary stat (generally CHA, but Con for poisons/breath weapons, and sometimes wisdom or intelligence for specific classes).
As such it will typically be on par with the DC of spells of the same level, however fortitude is about the best monster save around so that hurts the ability. Ranged touch attacks are nice in general but with that for each bit and save throws for each 1d8 that's a double fail point (though you still get half damage so there is that)... it's just a lot of rolling to go through (in my opinion another strike against it -- having to do 10 attack rolls for some 10d8+7d6+Cha Mod damage and then 10 fortitude saves too is enough to get some GMs I know to say, "No." on principle).
I've decided not to ask to re-spec. I'm just going to stick with him as is and tweak as I level.
Yeah same could have been said of flurry of blows and we saw how that snafu went.hmm, yeah the only issue with fiery shuriken is that it doesn't add an ability modifier and it has the most commonly resisted damage type.
As far as attacking one target, there have been several threads regarding it, and innumerable faq requests, so I think it can be safely taken at face value.
What we're missing here is the fact that sor/wizs have blasts that dwarf anything a bard can do. They're not built for blasting, and it shows.
I agree about fiery shuriken. In an extended melee situation, combined with a blur or improved invisibility spell, you can sneak-whack the crap out of some mooks, and time it to your preference as the battle unfolds, and even cast other spells, if needed. It gets better as you level, too.
It's not better than scorching ray. It just works better for some situations, when you're facing lots of opponents in a big battle. My trickster would be a bit hesitant to get in such situations in the first place. I generally don't want glowing shuriken hanging in front of me and advertising what square he's in. Tricksters are often invisible, but their spell effects aren't.
At lower levels, though, with a blur spell, they're pretty cool.
Fiery Shuriken's big thing to me is the fact you can simply send all those shurikens at once and 'nuke' one opponent or divide it up over time.
Fiery Shuriken's big thing to me is the fact you can simply send all those shurikens at once and 'nuke' one opponent or divide it up over time.
Fact. It's a good spell. Use it with blur, but not with II, at least for long.
Would you consider a supernatural effect like soundstrike to be eligible for ability focus? What about combat feats like weapon focus? Its a touch attack and not a ray, but does melee damage, so its a bit of a weird one.
Would you consider a supernatural effect like soundstrike to be eligible for ability focus? What about combat feats like weapon focus? Its a touch attack and not a ray, but does melee damage, so its a bit of a weird one.
Ability focus sure. Point blank shot okay not sure about weapon focus but I wouldn't sweat it too hard personally.
Would you consider a supernatural effect like soundstrike to be eligible for ability focus? What about combat feats like weapon focus? Its a touch attack and not a ray, but does melee damage, so its a bit of a weird one.Ability focus sure. Point blank shot okay not sure about weapon focus but I wouldn't sweat it too hard personally.
And we still come up against the very real problem of a bard who is gaining nothing from his bard class other than his spells, which, even if he burns feats to have some mildly effective sneak attack spell at lower levels, just doesn't have the right magical juice to be an effective trickster in the long run. A sor/wiz trickster will literally run rings around him, right around 8th level, where the trickster class, taken as a whole, and optimized to the bejesus belt, is still pretty weak.
Bard tricksters are weak. Weaker than a bard, and weaker than a rogue. Nothing can change that.
I've decided not to ask to re-spec. I'm just going to stick with him as is and tweak as I level.
Good. Use the ubiquitous wands you're making, make them for the whole party, and use your slots to cast the spells the other guys just can't, like haste and displacement.
At higher levels, use your crafting to make wondrous items your party could never afford, and custom make items you can afford 2 or 3 levels before a non-crafting party can get them. Make a cloak of resistance AND etherealness for yourself, once you can.
Like I said before, you're all the wizard you have, and you can craft some good stuff.
Scout ahead, use your acrobatics to get out of jams, and move the party forward. ATs are team players, as a rule, and you have a lot to offer. Be patient. You're just starting to get good.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor
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Hmm, Not sure if this has been mentioned, but Sleepless Detective from Paths of Prestige might just be the new way of getting that extra d6 of sneak attack. Not only does it give a d6 at first level, it also lets you add your INT score to Perception checks and Sense Motive checks. A solid bump for Wizard based Arcane Tricksters. It does require Alertness and some pesky skills though. If you want to avoid (or have to avoid) the evil route, it's a nice option. IMO the idea of a magical detective/ trickster is cooler than assassin, but YMMV ;)
Another option which requires 2 levels is Halfling Opportunist. I like it because you snag a nice bonus to saves and trap-spotter which is my favorite rogue talent.
The adverb isn't really necessary. Committing murder is evil. The only thing that is "utterly" evil are fiends, who are literally made of the stuff.
In any case, is there any reason you couldn't make the character with a level of assassin and simply say it's an ex-assassin who has long since changed their ways?
You could, I guess. I don't think I'd go with it, but I'm not your GM. Pretty cheesy way to get that extra caster level, IMO, but anything's possible.
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Hmm, Not sure if this has been mentioned, but Sleepless Detective from Paths of Prestige might just be the new way of getting that extra d6 of sneak attack. Not only does it give a d6 at first level, it also lets you add your INT score to Perception checks and Sense Motive checks. A solid bump for Wizard based Arcane Tricksters. It does require Alertness and some pesky skills though. If you want to avoid (or have to avoid) the evil route, it's a nice option. IMO the idea of a magical detective/ trickster is cooler than assassin, but YMMV ;)
Another option which requires 2 levels is Halfling Opportunist. I like it because you snag a nice bonus to saves and trap-spotter which is my favorite rogue talent.
Interesting. Looks like I gotta update!
built a fun rogue/magus/AT in the guide to the builds thread, and a (viv/mindchemist)alchemist/magus/AT would be pretty scary as well.
I've found that taking a single level of assassin can get you into Arcane Trickster one level earlier.
Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Assassin 1/Arcane trickster 10, then take the rest in wizard. That way magical knack gives you full caster level.
That saves you a CL. It does not let you enter any earlier, since you need 5 levels before you can qualify for Assassin. Rogue 1 / Wiz 4 / Asn. 1 = 6 levels = Rogue 3 / Wiz 3.
Either way, you can't enter AT until 7th level.
And that Sleepless Detective *is* pretty nice. Combo w/ Viv. Mindchemist's double int ot knowledge checks and...wow!
Hmm, Not sure if this has been mentioned, but Sleepless Detective from Paths of Prestige might just be the new way of getting that extra d6 of sneak attack. Not only does it give a d6 at first level, it also lets you add your INT score to Perception checks and Sense Motive checks. A solid bump for Wizard based Arcane Tricksters. It does require Alertness and some pesky skills though. If you want to avoid (or have to avoid) the evil route, it's a nice option. IMO the idea of a magical detective/ trickster is cooler than assassin, but YMMV ;)Interesting. Looks like I gotta update!
I like that one! Thanks for the tip.
Oddball question. Could you take the Minor Magic rogue talent and get Mage Hand, then go Half-Elf Rogue/Witch (Bonded Witch from ARG)?
No. sLA's are not spells. They are spell like. Just as processed cheese food product isn't cheese. It's "food product."
I'm playing a Rouge 3 Magus 6 Acne Trickster3, It good balance,The hp and the Bab and armor are better than a normal caster you. you get less spells but you get spell strike, Spell combat and you can take percent strike and you can take vanish as a preferred spell. I did Rouge poisoner and Magus hexcraft he's a N Assassin.