I'm going to be running Kingmaker soon. Two of my players have made characters using our standard "4d6, reroll 1s, drop lowest" method to generate ability scores. The GM reference thread, however, says that's too high. What do I do? Should I make them redo their characters using a 15-point buy? I don't think they'll like that. If not, how should I make the game more challenging? (I'm new to GMing.) Should I make the monsters have max HP? Include more monsters? How about the kingdom-building aspect. That relies on ability scores, right? I don't have much free time, which is why I'm running a published campaign in the first place.
Make them redo their stats, changing everything is way more work, and you can make good characters with point buy still.
It is also good you haven't started it yet.
It is easier this way.
Tell them why they need to do the15 point buy. Or ask one of them to em it and do all the work to balance it out.
Also, point to this thread. And tell them to read it.
As for an apology you can offer them a bonus point to any one attribute not over 13. That shouldn't over balance it.
Thanks for the advice. I like the idea of an "apology point." Hopefully that'll appease them.
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The APs are designed around 4 characters with 15 PB, but they aren't going to completely curbstomp every last bit of it (though you'll likely have to make a few upwards adjustments on the enemies) if they have 20 PB or 4d6 drop the lowest.
There's very little difference between 15 PB and 20 PB, really, it just lets you shore up your weak stats more.
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I'm currently playing Kingmaker, with a PC generated using 4d6 drop the lowest 7 times keep the best six. It's the DM's idea.
So, we all put work into our PC, crafting backstories that would provide future plot hooks. We collaborated to the extent that the six players consulted on the kind of PC we would play so as to end up with a balanced party.
I put a lot of work into mine, and so did the others into theirs. We were all really looking forward to start playing with them.
I would have been majorly pissed off if, after all that, the DM had told me to start again! It would feel like a kick in the teeth!
All the anticipation would drain away. I'd feel cheated before we even start. Way to suck the fun out!
Point buy doesn't reduce the prime stat! It just reduces the other stats to seven!
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I ran King Maker with high stat PCs. It wasn't that much extra work. I added an extra creature here and there. Applied the advance template to bad guys if adding creatures didn't make sense. I kept the CR the same but as time when on, around book 4 I just stopped with XP entirely and leveled the PCs when appropriate according to the guidline in book. I did redesign a few encounters that more to do with open nature of King Maker than actually making the encounter tougher. The PCs just did things a little differently than expected.
By high stat I mean an equivalent to around a 35 pt build on average over 5 players. On guy rolled an equivalent of 50 pt buy with (18,17,16,14,14,10). He played a Paladin. He actually wasn't all that tough compared the Ranger with much lower stats.
Two of my players have made characters using our standard "4d6, reroll 1s, drop lowest" method to generate ability scores. The GM reference thread, however, says that's too high. What do I do? Should I make them redo their characters using a 15-point buy?This is why I don't do rolling for stats. If you told them to use the "4d6, reroll 1s, drop lowest" method to generate ability scores, then IMO you had best let them keep them. Otherwise...
I would have been majorly pissed off if, after all that, the DM had told me to start again! It would feel like a kick in the teeth!
All the anticipation would drain away. I'd feel cheated before we even start. Way to suck the fun out!
If you aren't prepared to let players run super characters, don't roll for stats. And the "bonus point to any one attribute not over 13" wouldn't make me feel better about being nerfed after I used what you told me to use.
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I have seen groups with point rolls that were closer to 25 or higher get stomped in Kingmaker. I have seen groups with 15 point buys rule the River Kingdoms with an iron fist, destroying the challenges that arose before them.
Point buy has much less to do with how a party handles an AP than player skill does. If your players are fairly new to the game, leave them with the characters they have now, it'll shore up their deficiencies and give them a better chance.
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High stats aren't the end of the world.
I am also running for a group of 5 PCs that used 4d6 drop the lowest and it works out fine. Don't worry about it. A few extra stat points will not ruin your game.
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I am also running for a group of 5 PCs that used 4d6 drop the lowest and it works out fine. Don't worry about it. A few extra stat points will not ruin your game.
....especially since the extra stat points will make their worst scores less bad! Their prime stats won't get any higher than the maximum they could get with point buy.
In our campaign, the best rolled stat by the guy who made our barbarian was a 15. He added +2 for his human bonus to start with 17, and he bumped it at 4th.
Does anyone honestly think that, if we had used point-buy, that the barbarian would have started with less than 20 Strength?
I was lucky enough to roll an 18, so started with a Dex of 20. I play the other front-line warrior in the group, but the (nat 15) barbarian is tougher than the (nat 18) ranger. He has a great reputation for strength and rage, that goes far beyond what his raw stats deserve. And you know what? That's great!
You don't need to worry about rolled stats, and any attempt to take their original PC away will simply result in resentment, for no net benefit.
We're running kingmaker right now with 20-25 pt buy... and there have been a FEW fights we flat out had to flee from. Mostly randomly rolled encounters, but there has been little stomping done on our part.
if 4d6 is too high (which i frankly doubt,) I would say let them go 25 pts. That's considered 'epic' and is still a challenge for many player groups.
Here are questions that are much more important to 'game balance' then what their starting stats are.
1) Are they new to the game? You state your new to gming.... are they??
2) Are they power gamers looking to over run the game?
3) What kind of classes are they bringing in?
People who manipulate the system to get the greatest characters of all time... will do it with 4d6 OR 15pt builds.. If your not confident in your ability to hold them back... then whether they have 17 or an 18 in a starting stat won't make a difference.
If they're stumbling through the new system and all the overwhelming amount of new info... A single troll or shambling mound will STILL tear through them if they had a 40 pt build...
I'm playing Kingmaker with a 25 point buy. Some parts are easy, some brutal. Going above 15 points won't break anything.
I am a player in a Kingmaker game where we rolled for stats. We rolled around 35 point buy on average.
It did not help us. We almost had a TPK on the very first battle. Poor rolls. Even worse teamwork. I'm playing a sorceress. She cast sleep. Every opponent but one made their save. The paladin had an ethical issue about CDGing an unconscious character so didn't. The rogue threw a dagger and did 1 hp of damage-- just enough to wake the guy up. The witch played 3 rounds trying to tie the guy up instead of casting CLW on the paladin who was bleeding out by that point. My sorceress almost sought out the BBEG so she could join his team.
We have developed better teamwork since. But my point is that high stats didn't make a difference.
Add an extra bad guy in. Give the BBEG one extra little ability. It won't be a big diff.
And yes, I've been gaming and rolling for stats for 30 years. I like having higher-than-average stats. I wanna be a hero. Not a slightly better than average kid off the farm. So sue me. If I was told to remake a character with a 15 point buy-- I'd quit. But that's me.
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If the DM limited the players to a 15-point buy, whatever my character concept may have been before, I'd change it to a SAD class with a compatable race and my starting character would have 20 in his prime stat at level 1, no matter how many 7s he had to have in his other stats to pay for it!
If you think limiting the points will make for PCs with mainly average stats then you're dreaming!
The more the points are restricted the more extreme his low stats are to pay for his good stats!
10- point buy? Okay! 18/15/8/7/7/7, and my race will make my 18 into a 20, and maybe my 15 into a 17, and one of my 7s can be a 5.
Why on earth would a DM think this would make a better game than 18/15/15/14/11/10, which are the stats I rolled for my Kingmaker PC?
If you are, for some reason, trying to deny a player starting with an 18, point-buy is not the way forward! Just get them to roll 4d6 drop the lowest six times in front of you, and they may not even get an 18!
In our 6-man group, three of us got an 18 as our best score, one got a 17, one a 16 and the barbarian a 15. All bar one chose a race that gave +2 to the prime stat (the gnome druid with 16 Wis).
As good as our stats may seem if you work out how much they would have cost to buy, the truth is that our best roll can't be more than 18 no matter what method we choose, but rolling stats meant we might not get an 18, and we can't reduce our stats to 7 to get higher stats elsewhere. Both of which would not be true with point-buy.
Wow, this rhread really took off last night! Thanks for all the tips, everyone. For those curious, my player and character composition is as follows: Half-Elf Druid with a thylocene animal companion (player appears to be a 3.5 vet, but I'm not sure), an Elf Ranger with the beastmaster archetype (player is relatively new to this system), and a Half-Orc Witch (player is relatively new to the system). All three players are somewhat new to Pathfinder.
As for my decision: I've decided to let them keep their characters. If I see them steamrolling through the adventures, I'll consider adding more challenge somehow.
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Wow, this rhread really took off last night! Thanks for all the tips, everyone. For those curious, my player and character composition is as follows: Half-Elf Druid with a thylocene animal companion (player appears to be a 3.5 vet, but I'm not sure), an Elf Ranger with the beastmaster archetype (player is relatively new to this system), and a Half-Orc Witch (player is relatively new to the system). All three players are somewhat new to Pathfinder.
As for my decision: I've decided to let them keep their characters. If I see them steamrolling through the adventures, I'll consider adding more challenge somehow.
Cool! Let us know what happens!
What stats did they roll?
I've been playing Kingmaker for the last 30 months with a 25pb. 5 PC's in the party and it's been anything but cake. Maybe the GM is just that good, I dunno. :)
we rol 3d6 re roll 1s. try that next time.