I see all the time threads that show how to really crank up this or that. How do I make such and such a thing unmitigatably such and such... And most of them end up being 'how do I throw this on top of this on top of this and make a 'this sandwich' where all my feats and skills and items all point towards my one amazing thing.
I also have had the pleasure of reading about how fighters don't have much to do because they sink their entire build into specializing. I'm not interested in having those discussions per se, but I am interested in the ramifications of running a game where nothing stacked.
Clearly you'd still get your +1 attribute bonus per 4 levels, but say an inherent attribute bonus didnt stack with the enhancement bonuses from the big six... That kind of thing.
A duellist doesnt have to waste a feat slot on improved initiative because they'll get those bonuses at level 8 anyway, and the only thing that'll happen if they take it is they'll get the +4 earlier but it doesnt 'change' to a +8.
The rules for this discussion so far are
Presume such 'not-stacking' also applies to enemies/monsters as well and
Ignore the notion that 'this kind of thing would be a lot of work for a gm'
Thoughts?
Since everyone will have a +1 at least from somewhere eventually, it would instantly ruin every spell that gives a bonus to anything useless, it would remove the need for many magic items and it would render plenty of feats useless.
Why take Weapon Focus when you can have a +1 - +5 weapon?
Why cast Bless when everyone is bound to have a +1 from masterwork already?
The new cool stuff of the day would be magic weapons, cloaks of resistance, a piece of armour or bracers of magic armour and a few skill boosting items. Whatever brings the biggest bonus wins, but outside these items you need (and do not benefit from) anything for numbers.
There would be a great deal more horizontal advancement of course, everyone would get more different options because the normal spell/feat slots are available for something else.
All in all it also requires a huge rewrite of the monster book.
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If your new rule says shields always do nothing then something is horribly wrong with your new rule.
e: Fighter weapon training (and weapon focus/specialization) ceases to exist because it doesn't stack with enhancement bonuses, and barbarian rage bonuses to Str/Con do nothing but save you money on your belt. In general, martial characters are hitting less and getting hit more because they lose several of their default bonuses and cannot be buffed, but wizards are essentially operating at full power. Battle clerics stop being a thing though, so at least one of the full-casters ceased to be godlike?
What exactly is the upside of this?
And maybe a ring of protection doesnt become irrelevent, but that it became one of many different choices for a good armor class instead of just an item to abuse for astronomical ac scores...
That 'lots of different options because it frees up spell/feat slots' is kinda what i'm shooting for'
I'd be interested in seeing how an optimizer would build things based on the new notion that once you got the best bonus in an ability then poof. done. whats next? Even if combat became more difficult would the fact that people suddenly were free to explore more options with feat selection or item selection?
If your mages and bards and such werent tied up with buffing, or your items slots or feats were not tied up with buffing... what would you do with that freedom?
Helpful as always Miss Yang. Thank you. These are among the things i'm looking for.
I'd play a battlefield control / debuff wizard because you made everything else unplayable.
Congratulations?
These are among the things i'm looking for. You accurately point out that certain things become useless and thats great. What I want you to do is go deeper.
Once those are useless.. You immediately jump to the conclusion that non mages become complete throwaways... I want to know why. Give me details.
Uh, you'd have to rebuild the entire game. This isn't even in 'house rule' territory.
I dont want impulse response. I want well thought out clearly presented thought.
Once again. I'm not interested in 'thats too much work'.
I dont just want 'its too much work' 'You've destroyed buff classes' "youve destroyed non casters''
I want to hear why
Once again. I'm not interested in 'thats too much work'.
I dont just want 'its too much work' 'You've destroyed buff classes' "youve destroyed non casters''
I want to hear why
Because the game is balanced on the premise that bonuses do stack.
You annihilate CR. You annihilate WBL. You would need to rebalance nearly everything.
And that's all that really needs to be said, to be honest.
You want to hear why making a new rule that makes buffs not work would destroy the buff classes? Gee, I wonder why that would be.
You're not even offering meaningful alternative options and choices because most of the time there's only one correct answer. For example, there's no "choice" in using Ring of Protection under these rules because it's far less cost-effective than armor (and the classes that can't wear armor have alternatives like Mage Armor).
Which raises the next question: how non-stacking is non-stacking? Do my Str bonus to hit, my BAB, and my weapon's enhancement bonus all stack, or does everything except my BAB stop mattering at mid-levels? Do my skill ranks stack with my class skill bonus, and does Skill Focus even do anything anymore? If I multiclass, do the base saves of my classes still stack, or do they now overlap?
You want to hear why making a new rule that makes buffs not work would destroy the buff classes? Gee, I wonder why that would be.
You're not even offering meaningful alternative options and choices because most of the time there's only one correct answer. For example, there's no "choice" in using Ring of Protection under these rules because it's far less cost-effective than armor (and the classes that can't wear armor have alternatives like Mage Armor).
Which raises the next question: how non-stacking is non-stacking? Do my Str bonus to hit, my BAB, and my weapon's enhancement bonus all stack, or does everything except my BAB stop mattering at mid-levels? Do my skill ranks stack with my class skill bonus, and does Skill Focus even do anything anymore? If I multiclass, do the base saves of my classes still stack, or do they now overlap?
To take it to another level, do our skill ranks, attribute bonus, and +3 class skill bonuses stack?
I dont actually adhere much to wbl and cr, so thats not much concern to me, but thank you for that.
Mage armor is one way to do it. Ring of protection is another way that doesnt take up a spell slot...
To answer the next question is excellent. exactly what i'm looking for. i'm thinking more along the lines of one bonus to strenth doesnt stack with another bonus to strength... Your str and bab stack, but any bonuses past that would not....
If you get a strength bonus (which incidentally is a damage bonus) that would stack with something that gave you a damage bonus that was just a damage bonus and not a strength bonus... That kind of thing.
Just lost a pint of blood so my minds a little fuzzy but bear with me.
Hmmmm. Good one. Skill ranks, attribute bonuses and class skill bonuses would still stack... This is what I need. I'd like to just explore the idea and see if it's worth fleshing out, but I need the best minds in the business to explore all the angles, good and bad. I can't think of everything but you guys sure can. I appreciate it a lot.
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Most of the best non-caster abilities in the game turn into gold savers at best. I believe I mentioned Weapon Training/Focus/Specialization and the rage bonuses above. Superstition and Divine Grace, normally fantastic defensive abilities, now just save you a bit of cash on a Cloak of Resistance. Smite Evil is mostly meaningless except for bypassing DR, since the other bonuses overlap with existing bonuses (though at higher levels at least a bit of the other bonuses should survive). Monks lose most of their options for spending Ki points (e.g. can't add 4 to your AC because it doesn't stack, can't add 20 to your speed because it doesn't stack, etc). Favored Enemy is just more bonuses to hit and damage so it doesn't matter very much anymore either. Every situational bonus like Bravery gets swallowed up by the generic always-on bonuses and doesn't exist, so all of them are gone.
When it comes to feat selection, the lion's share of combat feats are generic +2 bonuses to stuff, so of course none of them work anymore. This includes the Improved and Greater maneuver feats; combine that with the effect this rule will have on your CMB, and you can say goodbye to ever even considering using any combat maneuvers, and of course anything involving a shield is right out. It's not clear if non-numerical bonuses stack - for example, if Rapid Shot and Manyshot are still compatible. If they do, I'd expect that the best way to play a martial would be to latch on to a few of those that still actually work together and hang on for dear life.
Buff classes don't work because the entire rule is that buffs don't work, not sure why this has to be explained.
All in all, martial classes get screwed because most of their features are a bunch of bonuses to hit, damage, and AC that no longer actually work, and doing their most basic job depends on those numbers adding up to the point where they can kill stuff without dying. Wizards don't get screwed because their abilities all come from single spells that don't depend on adding up a bunch of numbers, so the gods remain godly.
As for the "good" side of all this... there is none, this is seriously a horrible idea on every level.
Its absolutely true that i think shield and armor should still stack, but if your spell or protection ring or bracers or whatever cant outperform it then there's no point wasting that slot... I'm trying to get my mind around the system in a way that would open up possibilities other than just 'i'm the ultimate tripper! I've got a 50 ac!
If the highest ac is no longer x+y+z+a+b+c then what would the highest ac be, and how would you get there?
Wouldn't magic armor become almost useless? (I assume the magic AC bonus wouldn't stack with the mundane AC). You'd end up putting a useless +1 on so you could pick up the useful magic armor properties.
The highest AC would be a dude in armor and you'd get there by wearing armor.
Your "solution" does nothing but close off the possibility of playing anyone who can trip at all.
The actual best AC is the wizard because everyone's AC is garbage but the wizard can still create mirror images or turn invisible.
Shoring up weaknesses becomes impossible - for example, your fighter can't take Iron Will anymore because it doesn't stack with the Cloak of Resistance.
No seriously what was the point of this rule again?
You're very right about the ki points for movement and ac... I'm pretty sure monk already has a crazy move and ac just as a result of levels but admittedly I don't know monks that well. These are the kind of things that i'm curious about bringing down.
I suppose if every character opted for the big six belts it would shut down the need for buff classes... And maybe I'm ok with that and maybe i'm not...
That is sort of the point of this idea though is the thought that if you don't spend every spell slot and item slot and feat slot on driving numbers into the stratosphere since it doesnt work anymore... Then what are you left with.
I know the short answer is 'not pathfinder' and thats a bridge I might cross in the final analysis but yes. This is what i'm asking about.
With the monk ki example... what other things do monks spend ki on besides movement or ac?
Its absolutely true that i think shield and armor should still stack, but if your spell or protection ring or bracers or whatever cant outperform it then there's no point wasting that slot...
This sounds like it needs a lot more pinning down before any constructive feedback is going to be viable.
If you want nothing to stack, then armor and shield wouldn't stack on AC. If you want armor and shield to stack, why doesn't deflection kick in? What about natural armor?
As is, it doesn't sound like this is thought all the way through... or rather, I realize it's purposefully not thought all the way through yet, hence the forum discussion but I think you need a more defined starting point if you want to get anywhere on this.
So, what exactly are you saying does or does not stack, at first glance?
Going just from AC for example: Armor, Shield, Dexterity, Deflection, Natural, Dodge, Class features. What 'stacks' and what doesn't here?
I think a better option may be that bonuses from magical sources don't stack. Or perhaps just magic item bonuses don't stack.
Still hurts martials more than casters though, as they are more dependent on items.
If the way you choose to go with armor is to get +5 full plate then those stack because its a single buff. The only way another buff could help is if it provided a better bonus than +5 platemail... I wouldnt want to make the +5 useless. Its all on a single item.
Very good.
@Corlindale: excellent. I was kind of hoping specifically for this kind of thing. A CR19 monster being able to easily hit our mega armor guy while still being a coin toss to get hit back sounds great to me... Much thanks for that.
Well, the problem is that martial classes in Pathfinder don't really have a lot going for them beyond stacking a bunch of numbers together, because letting them do unique things would be too anime or something. So take that away and you're left with awful classes who can't do their basic jobs and can't do any other jobs either.
Monk AC normally isn't crazy unless you invest heavily in it, and then your offense sucks. Since nothing here stacks, monk AC is just plain terrible. Ki is presumably spent getting an extra attack on their flurry, which misses because it probably would have missed even when they had attack bonuses that actually functioned.
If you had a +5 shield and +5 armor I wouldnt let both +5s fly... Agreed what i'm shooting for is that there would be no point to it.
What I'm trying for is Instead of 'the fighter cant take iron will anymore because it doesnt stack with cloak of resistance' in my mind reads 'the fighter doesnt have to bother with iron will anymore because he plans to have a cloak of resistance' so he can free that feat up for something else..
Its not just a disadvantage of stats. Its an advantage of opening up choices and variety.
Keep it coming!
I suppose if every character opted for the big six belts it would shut down the need for buff classes... And maybe I'm ok with that and maybe i'm not...
Will the characters buy one of the only items whose generic bonuses still function and which they probably would have bought even if the other best items in the game were still options too? Gee I dunno
What I'm trying for is Instead of 'the fighter cant take iron will anymore because it doesnt stack with cloak of resistance' in my mind reads 'the fighter doesnt have to bother with iron will anymore because he plans to have a cloak of resistance' so he can free that feat up for something else..
And then the fighter gets dominated and you have no choices because you're dominated.
See, unless you're reducing all the monsters' save DC's by 2, you're taking a bad class and removing one of its only decent options.
Its not just a disadvantage of stats. Its an advantage of opening up choices and variety.
Ah, yes, like combat maneuvers. Wait, no, you effectively banned those by making all the Improved/Greater feats not actually provide bonuses and giving martials no way to compete with opponents' AC, let alone CMD.
Show me one new option you've created here that would have been terrible before but is now great because of this genius new rule you've concocted that opened up such wonderful new avenues of gameplay. Go on, one new option. I'll wait.
So at its very simplest this wouldnt alleviate anyone from collecting their usual gamut of big six items and cloaks and bracers and rings....
I was hoping that all of the things the combat classes could do would at least add up to the same numbers that the big six provide, making them 'parallel'...
Hmmmm. Does monk without ki ac get up to the 27s at all?
@Yang Stop trying to kick my @$$ psychologically. Theres no reason for it.
Be helpful or go away
I dont play fighters so i cant answer your question. I agree its a valid question... So lets answer it. My question is what else is there. Is that all there is for a fighter. Boost to the moon or go home... crafting feats and master crafting slots opening up and since we've already established that such bonuses are the only real goal then i'd say those are some premium feats now? I don't know. Help me out here. Is stratosphere statboosting all fighter is good for?
Just cool it with the beat down.
The most important rule: Don't be a jerk. We want our messageboards to be a fun and friendly place.
It would eliminate the bracers and rings and amulets, but the belts/headbands and cloaks stay because they're the best bonuses of their type.
Theoretically a 20th level monk could have as much as a 33 AC, but that assumes ridiculous starting scores (in practice it would be more like 29) and assumes that their Dex, Wis, and level AC bonuses all stack (and I suspect level and Wis would not stack in these rules). So slightly better than your platemail paladin but still getting autohit even by minions.
You're the one who proposed this rule. It's been adequately demonstrated by several people in this thread that it causes plenty of problems (makes martials unable to do their jobs) and limits character design options (makes all the martial classes pretty much the same because their unique bonuses don't stack with other stuff, cuts off a lot of paths like maneuvers). I don't think asking you to demonstrate one measly new option your proposal creates is unreasonable, and I think it's very telling that you can't.
@Vestrial. I started with that thought of just wiping out stat bonus magic items just to take away the christmas tree temptation... I may still end up going that direction but i'm sure Yang can handily prove thats an atrocious horrible game breaking thing to do...
@Yang. I like how the monks ac would turn out based on your analysis and appreciate that feedback. Still better than a paladin eh? Doesnt sound so bad.
I'm very glad for all the people in the thread showing me the problems. I enjoy exploring those problems. Just not happy with the belittling you're so often good at. If you cant read the forum without wanting to punch me through the screen then go elsewhere.
Help is great. Even proving its horrible is great. Calling me a fool for wanting to explore the idea is not great, so if you're done helping then yes,yes,. You're very smart. Now go away.
I'm quite cool so far with the notion that an optimizer would scratch bracers and rings and amulets off his list. I wonder what theyd use in those slots instead. I really love the idea that there's a dozen different ways to get a bonus. I'm not so hot with a dozen different ways to get a bonus meaning you get a dozen bonuses to the same roll.
The 33 is assuming you start with a 20 in both Dex and Wis. In practice that's not gonna happen, and even starting with an 18 in one and a 16 in the other makes the paladin come out ahead. Also it doesn't matter which is ahead because they're both being hit on a 2 by everything they meet.
I don't see why it's so unreasonable to ask you to give the slightest hint as to why you think this would be a good idea or what good could possibly come of it. This entire thread has been a very compelling list of reasons this doesn't work, and asking you to give a single positive example as motivation to not just write this off as a bad idea isn't being a jerk.
It would be being a jerk if i'm not interested in giving a reason i'd want to explore the idea that you keep insisting on one.
I have however given a reason i'm interested in exploring the idea.
I'm curious to see how it works, even if the answer is 'badly' as long as i have a clear understanding of what kinda 'badly'... What i want is a clear picture in my head of the details, and the minds of the people who are used to such mental gymnastics helping me paint that picture. You are among those minds and for the parts of your posts that are thoughtful analysis i am grateful.
For your tone I am not.
If you're done exploring the idea then thank you for your input. If you think exploring the idea further isnt worth your time then I thank you for your input.
I definitely dont want to stretch the power rift between casters an martials.
The actual intent is to stop the stacking frenzy but its becoming more clear to me that stacking frenzy is all the martials have. Thats kinda sad.
I can now see these changes would clearly take a lot away from a martial while leaving control wizards and summoners untouched which isnt the goal but is an undesirable side effect. If this is such a huge rift that further changes need to be made I'll either have to explore that or as Yang does, junk it as quickly as possible and do a little victory dance on its grave.
Yang has a little stamp in her notebook that says 'any time vincent posts its the post of an absolute fool and should be responded to with vigorous lashings of apprehension towards his spirit and sanity'...
Its actually not even personal. She does it with a lot of other folks with the same gusto. And cant seem to help herself when the subject amounts to 'more nerfing the martials' wether intentional or unintentional.
Doesnt mean she cant bring the facts and she's got some good points this time around. I just wish the 'tude wasnt a necessary side effect.
I'm not sure yet if the horrible armor classes and saves make me want to throw this idea away just yet. Making a cr 19 more difficult to tangle with actually sits pretty well with me but as several including Yang have pointed out this plan doesnt have much effect on certain classes and has a pretty robust effect on others.
I was hoping the effect was positive in terms of say feat/item variety but clearly no bonus a martial gets is good enough or even on par with the magic item bonuses so stat-fu christmas tree martials are still the game to play and thats what I was trying to fix. Freeing feats and slots so martials could have more variety.
Clearly instead this would just nerf the bajeesus out of them.
So on the magic side, what sorts of +CL and +DC feats/racial ablities/etc. are there and how would they be affected?
It's really not. Don't believe the hype. You can't just implement a huge rule change and touch nothing else. This would obviously require re-balancing the opposition. Since casters can't stack tons of +dc effects, that mitigates the need for + save items. Also since martials can't stack tons of +defense items, CMDs will remain low, so maneuvers will actually get easier, not harder. (Except on monsters, whose CMDs are horribly out of whack anyway, so fix them while you're at it)I definitely dont want to stretch the power rift between casters an martials.
The actual intent is to stop the stacking frenzy but its becoming more clear to me that stacking frenzy is all the martials have. Thats kinda sad.
This is where I was hoping to wind up. I thought there would be an inherent increase in monster dangerousness which, not being a cr/wbl enthusiast, I'm ok with. Everyone always seems to agree that any kind of reduction in stat-fu is a very bad decision since the cr of monsters is built on the foundations of such stack-fu... If that elevates certain opponents to 'unsurvivable' might be ok with me. If your idea of pathfinder is that the rift between casters and martials is already insurmountably great then this adjustment either mitigates, has no effect on, or exacerbates the gap. Yang clearly believes it exacerbates the gap.